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The argument against the early promotion of Phil Hughes

As everyone in Yankeeland knows by now, the Yankees have announced that Phil Hughes will be promoted to the big club and will make his major-league debut on Thursday against the Toronto Blue Jays.  Like every Yankee fan, I'm very excited to see the kid pitch in the big leagues because he has the makeup to be a great pitcher in this league for a long time.

However, in my opinion, bringing Hughes up this early in the 2007 campaign is a mistake and I view it as a panic move by the organization due to the injury-riddled rotation and the inconsistencies of the current (although temporary) group outside of Andy Pettitte.

By no means am I questioning his maturity or his ability on the field because he has clearly developed far beyond his years when you compare him to other young hurlers his age -- past and present.  But, he has pitched just 230 innings in his ENTIRE PRO CAREER and there was a reason why Cashman and Co. were committed to babying this kid's development and limiting his pitch counts since the middle of last season at Double-A Trenton.

I realize Hughes has all the tools to be an outstanding pitcher, but let's all try to keep in mind that this kid is just 20 yrs old -- and there are reasons why there isn't a long list of 20-yr old pitchers who have performed well in the major leagues during the last decade. There is a huge difference in the development of one's arm between pitchers who are 22-23 yrs old and have 500+ innings of experience under their belt and a 20-yr old pitcher with 200+ innings of experience under his belt. 

My biggest fear is that he is going to hurt himself as other young phenoms have done in recent years like Kerry Wood, Mark Prior, Francisco Liriano, Jonathon Papelbon [at the end of last season], and now "King Felix" Hernandez.

Star-divide

For 3 months last season, Liriano was outstanding and paired with Johan Santana to form the most dominant one-two punch in the major leagues.  However, his elbow evidently couldn't handle the enormous increase in workload and the strain eventually led him to a season-ending injury in the middle of a pennant race and then Tommy John surgery during the off-season.  Now, the Twins are out of luck because they lost an outstanding young pitcher for the foreseeable future who will not pitch in 2007 and at least part of 2008.

Let's be clear, I'm not advocating that Hughes should sit in the Minors for another season or two. But, I am suggesting that he needs to stay in Triple-A for half the season like the organization initially planned in order to gain more experience and not be thrown to the wolves like we've seen with Chase Wright, Darrell Rasner, and Jeff Karstens.

Hughes clearly wasn't ready for the big show in Spring Training when he struggled with his control and mechanics and I don't see how three starts in Triple-A is enough work and experience to learn from and overcome those issues.  Failure is not always a bad thing when it comes to the development of a young pitcher who is expected to be the ace of your rotation for the next decade.

The kid's arm needs to be conditioned for the kind of workload he's going to face in the major leagues and they shouldn't be putting his career at risk by bringing him up so early in the season.  I also question the logic for bringing him up now since he will likely stay on a monitored or limited pitch count and the Yanks already have issues with starters who are unable to pitch into the 6th and 7th innings.

Some reports have stated that Cashman believes Hughes will only be getting his feet wet and will be sent back down once Moose returns from the DL in another week or two.  I hope that turns out to be the case, but I fear he will stay in the rotation indefinitely and further risk the kid's future.  It's much easier and more practical to monitor and limit his pitch count in Triple-A than it is with the big club.

I hope I'm wrong, but I don't want to see such another outstanding young phenom sustain an arm, elbow, or shoulder injury after some initial success in the major leagues -- never to be the same again.  His future with this franchise is much too important to put his health at risk so early in the season.

That's my take on Phil Hughes and his debut on Thursday.  Feel free to agree/disagree and post your own theories.

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I understand
your points, but if you believe he should be up here in June because he needs more innings in the minors, I don't agree. 60 innings extra in the minors will not make a difference
Great Success!

by ReLaunch on Apr 24, 2007 6:52 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Injuries
  Your really not taht much more likely to get hurt in the majors than in the minors if you don't override him. If they think he can be effective, they should use him. the Yankees have plenty of other options that he shouldn't be rode on as badly as Prior was. (assuming the DLers come back on time)

 

by RollingWave on Apr 24, 2007 7:30 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Even Joe Torre
is not as ruthless as Dusty Baker.  We don't have to worry about a Wood/Prior-esque collapse.
These other guys, especially the guys who've had Tommy John, are becoming more and more the standard.  Everybody has TJ surgery these days, and if Hughes was going to hurt himself he's just as likely to do it in Scranton as in the Bronx, just take a look at all the DLed pitchers on the 40-man roster.
We're reaching the point where you can either be a truly dedicated, state-of-the-art fan or you can have a life. Take your pick.

by jscape2000 on Apr 24, 2007 8:25 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Bring him up
He's got nothing to prove, and we need him. I can give you a lengthy list of young pitchers who didn't get hurt: Feller, Palmer, Hunter, Gooden. I certainly understand you points (and most are valid, in my opinion). But it's time. You can't hold him back just because of his age.
Instead, blame Cashman for signing Igawa. Blame Cashman for signing Pavano. Blame Pavano for being a pussy.

by Ronster22 on Apr 24, 2007 8:31 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

C'mon Ronster
We all know that nothing is Brian Cashman's fault. What most objective observers would call blatant incompetence is simply referred to as "the Cashman touch" in the Bronx. One can only assume that the Boss is near death because an even remotely viable Steinbrenner would never have let this jerkoff misguide his team for this long.
Fear the Evil Empire

by pfistyunc on Apr 24, 2007 8:55 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Are you married?
Because I detect a similar sense of pessimism, sarcasm and impatience, I'm figuring you are. I am too. However, if you are single the time is now to move in on Steinbrenner's daughter and "take one for the team". Heck, even if you are married, I'm sure your lovely wife would understand that you have a chance to live every man's fantasy... No, not scoring with Jenna Jameson and her girlfriend, but running the greatest, most successful sports franchise in the history of the world! What woman wouldn't embrace that?

Well, mine didn't, but your's might. I think you'd be stellar in the role. You'd be respected, feared and revered as you lead the pinstripers on to glory!

by Ronster22 on Apr 24, 2007 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Seond that Al
From the man who has given us gratuitous glimpses of Jenna, Tera, and Arod's boobs ...
Grace us, oh master with a shot of the apple in Steinbrenner's eye ... and Pfisty's next wife.

by Ronster22 on Apr 24, 2007 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Jennifer Swindal Steinbrenner ...
She's not bad looking, and she's on the board of visitors at UNC Chapel Hill. That's only a few hours from my home. I think I may actually have a shot. If I weren't so technically challenged, I'd post the pic...

But Al's probably alreay got her in photoshop glamming her up abit.

by Ronster22 on Apr 24, 2007 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am a Carolina alum
and I live in Raleigh, so I think I have the edge right now.
Fear the Evil Empire

by pfistyunc on Apr 24, 2007 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dammit, man!!!
I'm putting my home on the market today, and will be in Chapel Hill by the weekend. Time to don those adult travel diapers again.

The way I figure Pfisty, you've got 3-4 days to seal the deal... Godspeed, my friend.

by Ronster22 on Apr 24, 2007 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

An added edge to me
My mother-in-law's secretary was the Boss's personal secretary for over ten years and knows the entire family very well.
Fear the Evil Empire

by pfistyunc on Apr 24, 2007 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Doomed, but not dead yet
The casket isn't quite sealed, although I must admit if it can't be me wooing the lovely pinstripe princess, it should be you!

Power on, man. And think of me when you are looking to fill the vacant GM position.

by Ronster22 on Apr 24, 2007 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

you have a mother-in-law ?
Ahhh, no wonder you're so pissed.

my sympathies.

by Al Rodgers on Apr 24, 2007 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

don't forget the 'cuffs
and the "diagrams"

by Al Rodgers on Apr 24, 2007 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hairspray

Damn!  all that hairspray actually crashed my computer.

by Al Rodgers on Apr 24, 2007 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

:) too funny.
AHAHA comment of the day!

by cliparttattoo on Apr 24, 2007 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

With the volume of that hair
You would need one large paper bag to hit that chick. To control the Empire, I would jump on that grenade though
Fear the Evil Empire

by pfistyunc on Apr 24, 2007 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Double Bagger
one bag for her, one bag for yourself

by Al Rodgers on Apr 24, 2007 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't like her accessories
no yankee swag - NONE - not even a ReggieBar!!

by Al Rodgers on Apr 24, 2007 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

no yankee swag...
but that bag she has is filled w/ yankee money!

by cliparttattoo on Apr 25, 2007 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

For the team
I'd tap it. And then I'd drink from the fountain of financial freedom for the rest of my life!

by Ronster22 on Apr 27, 2007 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I have asked several times
Once I heard that Swindal was out, I informed my lovely bride that we were moving to Utah and she would have to get over it.
Fear the Evil Empire

by pfistyunc on Apr 24, 2007 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ask again.
I'm asking my wife of 18 years to "take one for the team". There will of course be lovely parting gifts--a Yankees mug, and a bobble head Derek Jeter... What more could she ask for?

by Ronster22 on Apr 24, 2007 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not a big deal either way
There are many talent evaluators that feel that Hughes should've started the season in the majors, and on a small market team he probably would have.

This whole post seems predicated on the assumption that pitching in the major leagues makes it more likely for a 21 year old pitcher to get hurt. I think that assumption has no basis at all. The AAA disabled list is littered with injured prospects as well. Theoretically, the better pitching coaches at the higher levels would have more success at maintaining a pitcher's health, although that is probably offset by the increased emphasis on winning.

What bothers me about this decision it's lack of decisiveness. Why did the Yankees just mess around with Chase Wright? If Chase Wright was the answer two weeks ago, I don't know what has changed in that timeframe that'd push Wright out and Hughes in. Wright had poor results against two excellent major league clubs--did the Yankees really expect MORE than that? They must have, because they could've easily called Hughes' number back then, too.

by zukatesta on Apr 24, 2007 9:08 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

It's not simply his age
It's also his maturity as a pitcher and a guy who still has things to learn in the Minors.

by anaconda on Apr 24, 2007 9:14 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I contest that
I don't think he has anything left to learn in the minors. How many times is he going to pitch with a man in scoring position at Scranton? Not many, judging by his last outing. And yes, it's one outing, but he's done this before: take a start or two to settle in, and then exert his dominance on the league.

He'll learn in the Majors.

River Ave. Blues
Yanks and prospects

by PinstripePowerhouse on Apr 24, 2007 9:22 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

One outing
to the heavy hitting Toronto Blue Jays farm team. One of the best sluggers on the team is Sal Fasano... seriouly what are you going to do with that.

He was impressive but the team batting average is about .200 .

I am worried about the bullpen right now, because if he pitches great, he will probably lifted early because I think they are still trying to protect that arm, and if he pitches bad then the bullpen is ognn ahave to launch a rescue effort anyway.

Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and f*** the prom queen.

by Edwantsacracker on Apr 24, 2007 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hey A/C
send me an e-mail, I don't have your address

http://www.pinstripealley.com/user/Al%20Rodgers

by Al Rodgers on Apr 24, 2007 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wright for the wrong reasons
We took a flier on Chase Wright because Torre liked his eyes. Short of shutting out the Red Sox, I think Mr. Wright's days were numbered in NYC the moment he stepped off the Scranton shuttle. He was a stop gap until something better arrived ... whether it be Wang, or Hughes.

by Ronster22 on Apr 24, 2007 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think
they didn't want Hughes going back and forth.  They tried to sneak a few starts out of Wright until reinforcements arrived, but it didn't pan out.

If Hughes mows down the Jays and Karstens gets bombed again, Hughes will stay here.  Otherwise I bet Hughes goes down and Karstens stays when Moose comes back.

What would really be interesting is if Hughes and Karstens both pitch well, and Igawa gets cranked.  

by matthaggs on Apr 24, 2007 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Two out of three are possible
I think it is entirely possible for Hughes to pitch well, a virtual lock that Blower-san will get shelled, but a long shot for K"AAA"rstens to pitch well.
Fear the Evil Empire

by pfistyunc on Apr 24, 2007 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I know I'm in the minority
but for his first start of the season Karstens wasn't that bad.

There's not much you can do about stuff like two straight bunt hits, a sac fly, and a ground ball. And other bloop hits they got.

Yes, he made a mistake by walking Youkilis, and surrending laser beams to Ortiz every time he came up.  But if you're gonna keep a list of pitchers who do THAT too often, I hope you have a lot of paper.  And some help from Abreu would have saved him a run or two.

Friday will give us a better idea of what we can expect from Karstens.  I suspect it'll be somewhere in between Saturday and great.

by matthaggs on Apr 24, 2007 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Didn't pan out?
That's just the thing--it DID pan out--as well as should be expected. Hell, those performances exceeded my expectations. Fenway's a tough spot for a middling prospect who throws with his left hand, and the Yankees could've won that game, and did win the first one. If they weren't going to be happy with those performances, they should've just dug down for Hughes in the first place.

But now, Hughes apparently has one big start, and the Yankees rush him to the rotation like I used to do with my fantasy team!

by zukatesta on Apr 24, 2007 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No comparisons to Liriano, please
Everyone knew he was a few pitches away from TJ surgery. Why do you think the Giants traded him to the Twins in the A.J. Pierzynski deal?
River Ave. Blues
Yanks and prospects

by PinstripePowerhouse on Apr 24, 2007 9:10 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Cause Sabean
is actual the incompetent GM that people think Cashman is.  Liriano, Nathan, and Bonster for a season of AJ Pierzynski?
"If you're in love with the game, you can't turn it on and off like a light. It's something that runs so deep it takes you over.'' ~Billy Martin.

by jscape2000 on Apr 24, 2007 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

no kiddin'!!
I new about nathan and boof, but I didn't know Liriano was a part of that deal.

ooof!

This will go down as the worst trade since the Mike Kekich/Fritz Peterson swap

http://www.pinstripealley.com/comments/2007/1/10/135223/722/9#9

<

by Al Rodgers on Apr 24, 2007 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I've got wood
Fritz Peterson is my hero. I actually remember him wearing that shirt while he cut his lawn...
Good times.

by Ronster22 on Apr 27, 2007 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'd have taken that trade ...
All that for AJ? Kinda' makes one wonder what could have been really had for Sheffield if someone wasn't so pre-mature?

by Ronster22 on Apr 24, 2007 10:19 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

It's only temporary anyway
He's filling a gap that needs to be filled - he'll be back in AAA once we get our roster back in working order, or pick up Clemens.  Why not give the kid a taste, then let him go back to developing his game?

by docgonzo on Apr 24, 2007 11:19 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Thats running on the
assumption that Pavano will make it off the DL right?
Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and f*** the prom queen.

by Edwantsacracker on Apr 24, 2007 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why?
Even if they pick up Roger, Hughes may be a better option than Pavano or Igawa, if he's ready and can handle the work.  A rotation of Clemens, Wang, Pettitte, Moose, Hughes- that could be impressive.  Keeping Hughes as the 5th starter might be fine because he wouldn't have to throw as many innings as the others.

by SP on Apr 24, 2007 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That would be more than impressive
It would be good enough to win a ring. I just hope that they don't blow out their bullpen trying to get there and/or fall too far out of the picture to make the playoffs or a Clemens signing an impossibility. If they are 6-8 back of Boston, I doubt Roger would want to come back.  
Fear the Evil Empire

by pfistyunc on Apr 24, 2007 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think Hughes is a viable option this year
The main thrust of the original post is that he needs to develop his arm strength, which I completely agree with.  Making him a permanent addition to the roster might lead to an injury.  The only way that I would see fit to using him full time this year is if Clemens doesn't sign - even then it's a risk, one not worth taking.  As for Mr. Glass, I'm afraid we're stuck with him - he'll be (hopefully) healthy soon enough.

In light of Hughes continuing his development in AAA, the ideal roster would be: Clemens, Wang, Pettitt, Moose and Pavano.  Igawa would be best utilized in long relief, I guess.

by docgonzo on Apr 24, 2007 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Once again, disagree
He'll learn better lessons in the majors, and he'll build his arm strength, too. There are plenty of opportunities to limit his innings, too (see the piece mg linked for a full explanation).

Any use of a pitcher might lead to an injury. You can't keep playing scared with guys, especially guys who are ready. He really doesn't need much, if any, further development in the minors.

Re: Pavano. There's no guarantee that he pitches again this year.

River Ave. Blues
Yanks and prospects

by PinstripePowerhouse on Apr 24, 2007 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

pavano.
i know i have given up on him...gave up on him last year...a wasted investment for sure.

by cliparttattoo on Apr 24, 2007 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yes!
this is exactly how i feel.

by cliparttattoo on Apr 24, 2007 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You shouldn't be getting those
Pavano is a stupidass and told Rick Sutcliffe that he didn't know if he'd pitch again this year.

The Yankees company line is that he's throwing on the side today.

Keep it with Pete Abe or Tyler Kepner for an update.

River Ave. Blues
Yanks and prospects

by PinstripePowerhouse on Apr 24, 2007 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Is the staff reliable enough to bring up Hughes?
Are the Yankees pitchers reliable enough to bring up Hughes? If Hughes is going to be counted on to be a rainmaker on this team I don't think they should promote him.

This season the Yankees have one reliable pitcher out the 16 they've used in 18 games. Andy is the only one that is healthy and pitching well.

I'm not sure if it's just an iceberg on the horizon or if the pitching has already hit the iceberg, but I do know it's not a good idea to throw Hughes on a sinking ship.

by collink on Apr 24, 2007 4:05 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

i agree...
with this. We need something. The wreck that is Yankees starting pitching can't get worse imo.

by cliparttattoo on Apr 24, 2007 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Negative day on my part
I don't think the team is sinking, just the pitching. I'm thrilled to see Hughes, but I am concerned that too much responsibilty to save the rotation may be placed on Hughes.

We don't know how and when Wang and Mussina can pitch. Does Hughes become the Yankees no.3 starter, if one of them can't go for awhile?

by collink on Apr 24, 2007 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wang goes tonight
Moose has a rehab start on Friday of this week I believe.  If that goes well, he'll either have one more rehab start or get the call back to NY.

It's different with pitchers, but maybe they're looking for the kind of spark they seemed to get when they promoted Cano and shifted and eventually got rid of Womack.  Believe they were 11-18 at the time.

by matthaggs on Apr 24, 2007 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

cano.
You drive a valid point about the previous Cano and Womack situation.

by cliparttattoo on Apr 24, 2007 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

From Rob Neyer's blog today
You are welcome you non-Insider paying bitches:

The Yankees can't wait. Phil Hughes is starting against the Blue Jays Thursday. ESPN.com's Bob Klapisch wonders if the Yankees are panicking, and so does Newsday's Jim Baumbach.
After all, Hughes didn't fare well in his brief spring training trial with the big club, and he's pitched only 16 innings this month with Triple-A Scranton. But as Baseball America's Jim Callis reports, Hughes recently made "a minor adjustment with his delivery, [and] was back to locating his 90-94 mph fastball and plus curveball with precision." The result last week: six innings, two hits, zero walks, 10 strikeouts.

If you're not a serious Yankees fan, or a crazed fantasy owner, answer this question: Before this month, had you ever heard of Darrell Rasner, Chase Wright, or Jeff Karstens? Let alone all three of them? Well, they've combined to start six games for (theoretically) the world's best baseball team, and Wright and Karstens both have been hammered. Meanwhile, Kei Igawa co-leads the staff with four starts, but doesn't lead with a nifty 7.84 ERA.

The Yankees are in fourth place, four games out of first place. That's not so bad. What's bad is continuing to rely on a bunch of marginal major league starters. The Yankees have a significant amount of wiggle room, thanks to their star-studded lineup. But even the Yankees can't afford to go with a two- or three-man rotation.

Really, the only reason you wouldn't bring up Hughes now is the fear of destroying his promising future. Physically, the Yankees are not going to hurt him, at least not measurably. Hughes won't throw 120 pitches in a game this season, and perhaps not even 110. When it comes to his psyche, you have to assume the front office knows more about Hughes than we do. True, his nerves might get the better of him. It happens. But you might as well get the initial jitters out of the way, and if he struggles initially -- as many young pitchers have over the years -- you send him down and give him another shot in a month or two.

Pitching to major leaguers isn't easy. Jeremy Bonderman was an excellent prospect, and is today a fine pitcher. But as a 20-year-old rookie, he lost 19 games. Hughes might be a prodigy, though, and he's almost certainly one of the five best starters in the organization right now. If this is panic, every team should be so lucky.

Fear the Evil Empire

by pfistyunc on Apr 24, 2007 6:07 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Stunning stance by Lohud
Wow, Pete Abraham over at Lohud is actually critical of the Hughes promotion. I don't agree with him, but I must admit that it is refreshing to see him go against the organization, particularly Cashman. Usually, he makes Ed McMahon look critical with the "electronic cock sucking" of Cashman that is his usual blog theme.  
Fear the Evil Empire

by pfistyunc on Apr 27, 2007 12:53 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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