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Around SBN: The Most Dangerous Division in Sports

Fun With Fastballs: The Value Of Velocity

Just for fun, I took a look at two stats:

Average Fastball Velocity (FBv)

Wins Above Replacement (WAR)

I was curious to see if pitchers who threw their fastball harder scored a higher WAR score. I reviewed the 2009-2011 seasons to see if the numbers were consistent.

Let's take the jump and have a look at the data...

Star-divide

I broke pitchers into the following groups based on how hard they throw:

Above 93 MPH
92.9-92.5 MPH
92.3-91.2 MPH
91.1-90 MPH
Below 89.9 MPH

I only used pitchers who qualified for the ERA title each year, and the above categories provided a pretty even split among the pitchers. The numbers you'll see are the average WAR of the group.

Here are the results (I've included links to the Fangraphs pages with the specific filter used, in case you'd like to play around with the numbers yourself). You'll find the number of pitchers in the sample group in parenthesis next to the category:

2011

Above 93 MPH (16): 4.54
92.9-92.5 MPH (18): 2.71
92.3-91.2 MPH (18): 3.52
91.1-90 MPH (16): 3.62
Below 89.9 MPH (26): 2.03

2010

Above 93 MPH (17): 4.50
92.9-92.5 MPH (10): 3.70
92.3-91.2 MPH (19): 3.38
91.1-90 MPH (17): 2.93
Below 89.9 MPH (24): 2.37

2009

Above 93 MPH (16): 5.23
92.9-92.5 MPH (6): 3.42
92.3-91.2 MPH (16): 3.43
91.1-90 MPH (18): 3.71
Below 89.9 MPH (21): 2.37

Take what you will from this. Just looking at these numbers, and these numbers alone, pitchers with plus velocity consistently earn a much higher WAR value.

Just for fun, let's take a look at the potential 2012 Yankees starting pitchers and their velocity from last season:

Michael Pineda: 94.7 MPH

CC Sabathia: 93.8 MPH

Ivan Nova: 92.6 MPH

Hiroki Kuroda: 92.0 MPH

Phil Hughes: 91.3 MPH

Freddy Garcia: 87.2 MPH

Feel free to discuss your thoughts in the comments. Personally, I'm pretty happy the Yankees have a rotation of hard throwers heading in to the season.

Comment 30 comments  |  1 recs  | 

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Surely it doesn't hurt to have good velocity

But I think what makes these pitchers so effective isn’t the velocity alone, but the difference of velocity between their fastball and the off speed stuff… The varying of speeds keeps hitters off balance. Jamie Moyer had success not because of his velocity but due to the discrepancy in speed of his “fastball” and off speed (in his case) junk. A guy who has only a good high 90’s fastball isn’t going to have much success without a complementary off speed pitch.

Romine!

by david d on Feb 19, 2012 8:27 PM EST reply actions  

I agree

There are tons of factors. I just thought it was interesting that hard throwers scored the way they did looking at the fastball alone.

You can read my thoughts on all things New York sports at SNYWhyGuys.com
Minor League/Prospect writer for Pinstripe Alley
Check out Minor Developments on Yahoo! for additional prospect coverage

by Rob Steingall on Feb 19, 2012 8:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually

I don’t think Moyer really even varies speeds anymore and hasn’t for the past 5 years or so. But I get your point.

I know where I come from, and when you always have in mind where you come from the rest will be easy. I think the rest will be easy.

-- M. Rivera

by GMan83201 on Feb 19, 2012 8:37 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

he does

its called slow, and slower. every once in a while will throw in a slowest. its amazing tho to see him strike out someone with an 83 mph ‘fastball’ after throwing all junk early in the count.

"Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?"
-Abraham Lincoln

"Let me explain something to you. Um, I am not 'Mr. Lebowski'. You're Mr. Lebowski. I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing."
-Jeffery Lebowski, The Dude

by sweatyguido on Feb 19, 2012 11:18 PM EST up reply actions  

varying speeds

i think that varying speeds definetly is a huge reason why pitchers are sucessful but i think if you vary speeds at a higher velocity as opposed to varying speeds at a lower velocity… the higher velocity will be more sucessful, because as a hitter you have to read the pitches that much quicker at a higher velocity

by capz1990 on Feb 19, 2012 8:40 PM EST reply actions  

I don't have the data, but I wish I did

Because I would like to see the simple bivariate correlation between pitchers’ average 4SFB velocity and their WAR. That would give us a much clearer idea.

I know where I come from, and when you always have in mind where you come from the rest will be easy. I think the rest will be easy.

-- M. Rivera

by GMan83201 on Feb 19, 2012 8:41 PM EST reply actions  

And, actually, I see an off trend.

Expectedly, the pitchers with the highest average velocity have the highest WAR, and then there is an expected dip. But what is odd to me is that pitchers in the 91-92 mph range do better than pitchers at 92-93. Why would that be?

I know where I come from, and when you always have in mind where you come from the rest will be easy. I think the rest will be easy.

-- M. Rivera

by GMan83201 on Feb 19, 2012 8:43 PM EST reply actions  

not much difference

if you look at it is there really much difference in the one mph difference between the two ranges… i mean the pitchers in the 91-92 mph range probably just did better…. the one mph really shouldnt make much a difference… its different then the above 93 range as compared to the others because above 93 includes a much bigger range of speeds and a lot harder velocities.

by capz1990 on Feb 19, 2012 8:53 PM EST up reply actions  

That’s why I went back a few years when doing this. It evened out in 2010 and 2009, but then you’ll also notice an elevated number for the 91.1-90 MPH group.

Take a look at the 2011 92.9-92.5 group, and you’ll find these stinkers:

Jason Hammel: 1.0
James McDonald: 0.4
Brad Penny: 0.8

By contrast, the lowest number in the 93+ group for 2011 is Max Scherzer (2.7).

I thought it was interesting when I looked at it, and that it would spark a good discussion.

You can read my thoughts on all things New York sports at SNYWhyGuys.com
Minor League/Prospect writer for Pinstripe Alley
Check out Minor Developments on Yahoo! for additional prospect coverage

by Rob Steingall on Feb 19, 2012 8:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Could you point me toward where you got your data?

I would be curious to do some analysis of my own. I am not doing anything tomorrow.

I know where I come from, and when you always have in mind where you come from the rest will be easy. I think the rest will be easy.

-- M. Rivera

by GMan83201 on Feb 19, 2012 9:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Do the links work for you?

They may only show up for me because I’m signed in to my Fangraphs account. If that is the case, I apologize. It just didn’t cross my mind!

You can easily filter different data once you have one.

I filtered two numbers:

FBv
WAR

Get as complex as you’d like with it!

You can read my thoughts on all things New York sports at SNYWhyGuys.com
Minor League/Prospect writer for Pinstripe Alley
Check out Minor Developments on Yahoo! for additional prospect coverage

by Rob Steingall on Feb 19, 2012 9:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Are the sample sizes about the same for each group?

Also what sort of sigmas do you see in WAR for each population? My guess would be that there’s more spread in the top and bottom groups, simply because there’s more spread in velocities.

Usqueadbaugham! Anam muck an dhoul ! Did ye drink me doornail?

by Q-TDSK on Feb 19, 2012 9:19 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

also

if you notice the biggest differences in war come with the two groups that have the biggest ranges “above 93” and “under 89”… because they include bigger range of speeds

by capz1990 on Feb 19, 2012 8:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Interestingly,

According to pitch type linear weights per 100 pitches (wFB/C, which determines how many runs were saved by a pitcher’s fastball per 100 fastballs thrown), the most “valuable” fastballs are not necessarily the fastest ones.

Who the hell would have thought remaining knuckleballer R.A. Dickey’s fastball would have the highest wFB/C in 2011 (FBv of only 84.4 MPH). This might be because of the vast difference in the knuckleball and fastball, making it a potent weapon for him.

This is a really interesting article and topic. I may toy around with correlations between speed and pitch value.

by incognito64 on Feb 19, 2012 8:58 PM EST reply actions  

Please do!

This is a very basic look that only took me minimal time to throw together. I wasn’t aiming for anything more than straight velocity/WAR scores.

It’s something to get people thinking and discussing, more than anything else!

You can read my thoughts on all things New York sports at SNYWhyGuys.com
Minor League/Prospect writer for Pinstripe Alley
Check out Minor Developments on Yahoo! for additional prospect coverage

by Rob Steingall on Feb 19, 2012 9:01 PM EST up reply actions  

pitching control

Velocity is postively correlated with WAR. But what about control? The D-train can throw hard but walks too many. If you are looking long-term, you might also consider whether velocity and durability are inversely related to one another. To take exteme cases, Joel Zumaya and Mark Prior against Tim Wakefield and Jamie Moyer. Also, I would suspect that HR% will turn out to be important. I think pitchers should be viewed as a whole and not on one dimension. Finally, you can’t measure heart under pressure. God has blessed Mariano and David Robertson specially. Conversely, Pat Tabler used to be the most dangerous hitter with the bases loaded. I think the ability to perform under pressure is sometimes undervalued. For relievers, the inherited runners statistic can give a clue.

by logiet on Feb 19, 2012 9:02 PM EST reply actions  

All great points

Take what you will from this, and feel free to expand on it in your own way.

I’d love to see this spawn a few fan posts!

You can read my thoughts on all things New York sports at SNYWhyGuys.com
Minor League/Prospect writer for Pinstripe Alley
Check out Minor Developments on Yahoo! for additional prospect coverage

by Rob Steingall on Feb 19, 2012 9:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I quickly did some Excel work...

I wanted to see how FBv and wFB/C (the “value” of a FB per 100 FBs thrown) correlated, so I did a scatterplot using data from qualified SP over the 2009-11 seasons.
I removed 3 pitchers with FBv below 85MPH because they were outliers: Wakefield, Dickey and Livan Hernandez.
The resulting R^2 value was a minuscule 0.0468. A very, very weak positive correlation.
This is just one example and there are SO many factors but I thought this was a thought-provoking exercise: Are the fastest FBs the most valuable to a pitcher? I think the answer is actually dependent on a pitcher’s other pitches (Wakefield and Dickey both had very high wFB/C, likely because of their knuckleball, for instance.)

by incognito64 on Feb 19, 2012 9:19 PM EST reply actions  

Wow. That's no correlation at all.

Just statistical noise.

I know where I come from, and when you always have in mind where you come from the rest will be easy. I think the rest will be easy.

-- M. Rivera

by GMan83201 on Feb 19, 2012 9:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Variance

What was the variance per tier?

Most arguments are really about context.

by SheaWasBettor21 on Feb 19, 2012 10:22 PM EST reply actions  

I already asked for that

Well actually, I asked for standard deviation, so I guess it’s technically a different question.

Usqueadbaugham! Anam muck an dhoul ! Did ye drink me doornail?

by Q-TDSK on Feb 19, 2012 10:52 PM EST up reply actions  

I did it quickly for 2011 (and just noticed the populations were already given)

Category, Mean, Variance

Above 93 MPH (16): 4.54, 1.86
92.9-92.5 MPH (18): 2.71, 1.78
92.3-91.2 MPH (18): 3.52, 4.09
91.1-90 MPH (16): 3.62, 2.50
Below 89.9 MPH (26): 2.03,1.44

I’m a little surprised that the biggest spread is right in the middle. There’s a lot of overlap, overall.

Usqueadbaugham! Anam muck an dhoul ! Did ye drink me doornail?

by Q-TDSK on Feb 19, 2012 11:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Variance/Standard Deviation

I’ve done ZERO additional math for this, guys.
This is as crude as crude can get.

All I did was average the WAR of each group to get a discussion going. I’m sure someone else could create different groups and spin the data differently. I may play around with the numbers further tomorrow, but by all means, take the ball and run with it now if you’d like.

If the links don’t work for you, just filter FBv and WAR on Fangraphs from 2009-2011 and have at it. All you need is a free Fangraphs account to be able to create custom data searches.

There is way more that can be done with this, and by the comments, some of you are eager to look at it closer.

You can read my thoughts on all things New York sports at SNYWhyGuys.com
Minor League/Prospect writer for Pinstripe Alley
Check out Minor Developments on Yahoo! for additional prospect coverage

by Rob Steingall on Feb 19, 2012 11:06 PM EST reply actions  

Ahem, not to sound ignorant or anything but, is there anywhere a person who loves baseball can go to learn a thing or two about sabremetrics?

"You kind of took it for granted around the Yankees that there was always going to be baseball in October." - Hall of Fame Pitcher Whitey Ford

by DarthYankee on Feb 20, 2012 10:08 AM EST reply actions  

Check out the link in Duggan’s sig, if it’s still there.

Romine!

by david d on Feb 20, 2012 10:17 AM EST up reply actions  

Thanks. Much appreciated.

"You kind of took it for granted around the Yankees that there was always going to be baseball in October." - Hall of Fame Pitcher Whitey Ford

by DarthYankee on Feb 20, 2012 6:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Tommy John said once

that the three most important things in pitching are velocity, placement, and movement, and not necessarily in that order.
Even the hard throwers have to have some kind of movement (if it goes in straight, it will go out straight) and placement, while pitchers like John have been successful w/o much velocity.
I did a little research on the calculation of WAR for pitchers to see if there was an inherent bias in the formula in favor of hard throwers. According to Fangraphs and Big League Stew, WAR for pitchers is based on FIP, adjusted for things like park factors.
FIP is a strange formula. In an attempt to eliminate the possible impact of fielding, it excludes all hits other than home runs. This is sort of like analyzing someone’s driving record but ignoring all multicar accidents because they might be the other drivers’ fault. The formula assigns certain weights to walks and strikeouts and then introduces a normalization constant so that the formula will correctly predict the ERA of the average pitcher in the league.
Given that hits (except for HRs) are not considered, the FIP formula is built around walks and strikeouts, and rewards a high strikeout-to-walk ratio at the exclusion of almost everything else. Pitchers like Tommy John, who pitch to contact successfully, are penalized because they win w/o striking out many people. For example, John’s lifetime FIP by my calculation is 3.88, but his lifetime ERA is 3.34.
To the extent that John’s WAR is based on his FIP, it is understated, and if most of the low-speed pitchers are pitch-to-contact types, the WAR for the group may be understated as well.

Mickey C

by Mickey C on Feb 20, 2012 3:25 PM EST reply actions  

Over the last three years, min 450 IP

Split into relatively even groups, based on velocity.
FBv 93.1+ MPH – 15 pitchers, average WAR = 13.6
FBv 92.0-92.7 – 14 pitchers, average WAR = 10.6
FBv 91.0-91.8 – 17 pitchers, average WAR = 10.1
FBv 89.7-90.8 – 14 pitchers, average WAR = 7.1
FBv 84.3-89.3 – 13 pitchers, average WAR = 7.0

So 93+ amounts to roughly 1 fWAR per season in additional value compared to the 91-92.7 group. The 84.3-90.8 group loses roughly 1 fWAR per season in value compared to the 91-92.7 groups. So the difference between 93+ and below 91 is about 2 fWAR per year in value.

by cookiedabookie on Feb 20, 2012 4:46 PM EST reply actions  

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