Pedroia vs Cano
by Bososx13 on Feb 11, 2012 8:59 AM EST
Email
PrintI'm a Red Sox fan and I posted this on overthemonster, but I want to get a different response.
I'll start up a Pedroia vs Cano debate and try to say something about some of the arguments usually made.
1. Cano has better offense
Simply not true. In his career, Pedroia has a 124 wRC+, Cano has 119. wRC+ should favor Cano more than most stats because a single is better than a walk in it, yet Cano still does worse. Using the way I use to figure out true talent, Pedroia's true talent wRC+ is 125, Cano's is 122.
2. Defensive stats rate Cano's range as not good, but he makes amazing plays
Fans can be decieved by amazing plays example: Derek Jeter, because a bette fielder would've gotten to the ball without having to make amazing plays. But the argument that Cano does make great plays does have some merit, as we can see He has .272 Out of zone plays per 9 innings for his career, Pedroia has made .252, but Cano just dosen't make the easy plays, he only makes 81% of the plays where the ball is in his zone, Pedroia makes 83.7%. That's a huge difference and as a result Pedroia is better at UZR, DRS, and TZL
3. Cano won a gold glove, below average fielders don't win gold gloves
Well Derek Jeter won 5 gold gloves and he was one of the worst shortstops of the generation, a little better than Yuni Betancourt. Matt Kemp won one last year.
4. Pedroia doesn't have even splits
you can't throw away half the equation, and park factors are much better than splits, wRC+ is park adjusted and Pedroia comes out on top.
5. Cano has had better seasons than Pedroia
Pedroia's best seasons have 8 WAR and 6.8 WAR, Cano's have had 6.5 WAR and 5.6 WAR.
6. Cano has more RBIs than Pedroia
I could go on and on and on about how stupid RBIs are, but according to baseball reference's baserunners scored%, Cano scores 16% of the runners on base, Pedroia scores 15%. Pedroia has a 106 wRC+ with men in scoring position and a 115 wRC+ with men on base. Cano has a 92 wRC+ with men in scoring position and a 101 wRC+ with men on base.
So that's about it, I would vote for Pedroia because his career WAR/650 PAs is 5.21, and Cano's is 3.6.
If you come with an argument for Cano, don't use any of the above arguments, if you think there's something wrong with one of the above arguments, post your criticism and why Cano is better, but don't use the same one most people use that I showed was wrong.
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You should include Ben Zobrist, too, though.
Actually, can you go to DRB next and compare Zobrist to Pedroia (and maybe Cano)?
I would love to see a Beckham/Iglesias analysis, too, but you have to leave xbabip out of it. haha
but seriously about the 2b comparison.
FREE GUYER!
Cano
Most obviously, Cano has 144 career home runs. Pedroia 75. But more importantly, Cano is a “natural” baseball player with probably the sweetest swing in history. Comparisons to Rod Carew, Tony Gwynne, and Kirby Puckett are not uncommon. When you watch him play, you wonder how great he would be if he actually tried.
Pedroia plays like a chimpanzee on amphetamines. (And I mean that in the nicest way) LOL.
Cano has more home runs
and is still a worse hitter. Doesn’t matter how you produce. It dosen’t matter how they play if they’re more productive. Why does it matter how well it would play if he tried? why don’t you measure how they played
Sometimes you just have to trust your eyes.
There is this modern tendency to break everything down into statistic. That’s fine to a point. It allows everyone the chance to enjoy baseball, even the geek/accountant types. I’m old enough to have witnessed Mantle, Ted Williams, Willie Mays, Stan Musial and all the greats actually play. No one back then bothered to ask what their WAR or BABIP was.
Cano is a natural. Pedroia is not as naturally gifted. Naturals make the game look easy and very rarely get injured because they play within themselves. . Cano will go down as one of the greatest. Pedroia will be a footnote.
but Mantle, Williams, Mays, and Musial
had fantastic advanced stats. Cano not so much. Why does it matter to be a natural if you have less production?
How was the Super Bowl?
"Fans, for the past two weeks you have been reading about a bad break I got. Yet today, I consider myself the luckiest man on the face of the earth."
"There is no room in baseball for discrimination. It is our national pastime and a game for all." - Henry Louis "Lou" Gehrig
by Xavier10 on Feb 11, 2012 10:38 AM EST up reply actions 12 recs
Zing.
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." --Rogers Hornsby
by Chris McKeown on Feb 14, 2012 3:18 PM EST up reply actions
Zzzzzzzz
"Fans, for the past two weeks you have been reading about a bad break I got. Yet today, I consider myself the luckiest man on the face of the earth."
"There is no room in baseball for discrimination. It is our national pastime and a game for all." - Henry Louis "Lou" Gehrig
Pedroia saves his toenail clippings
wears a diaper, and lives in a drawer with his momma. And that is all.
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
by Rorschach44 on Feb 11, 2012 10:06 AM EST reply actions 7 recs
I have one, would you like to see it?
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
by Rorschach44 on Feb 11, 2012 10:10 AM EST up reply actions 7 recs
Too fucking easy.
"Fans, for the past two weeks you have been reading about a bad break I got. Yet today, I consider myself the luckiest man on the face of the earth."
"There is no room in baseball for discrimination. It is our national pastime and a game for all." - Henry Louis "Lou" Gehrig
I've asked so many if they'd like to see it
I’ve always expected a no (or a noonoo…). I don’t even know where to go from here
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
by Rorschach44 on Feb 11, 2012 10:17 AM EST up reply actions
I want to see a real argument why Cano is better than Pedroia
almost all the arguments I’ve seen are the ones in my post
You go nowhere. It’s visible from space.
I'm a bad example for the kids at home according to people on the Internet.
#JEDI4PSA
by Jedi Master A-Rod on Feb 11, 2012 10:32 AM EST up reply actions
Because your a douche
We criticize douches not argue with them thus making ourselves out to be Maxi pads.
Congrats to all who have turned PA into the Yahoo comment boards. New it couldn't last forever. Damn idiots had to go and win the World Series. The dude at the 7 eleven keeps saying fat man in undearwear punch my eye.
by cashman bashman on Feb 18, 2012 5:56 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You can see it from another galaxy.
"Fans, for the past two weeks you have been reading about a bad break I got. Yet today, I consider myself the luckiest man on the face of the earth."
"There is no room in baseball for discrimination. It is our national pastime and a game for all." - Henry Louis "Lou" Gehrig
Until someone gives me an argument
I see no reason why this post is unreasonable.
Xavier10’s post in the thread
“Zzzzzzzz”
“How was the Super Bowl?”
“Too f******* easy.”
“You can see it from another galaxy.”
Troll
You hurt my feelings
"Fans, for the past two weeks you have been reading about a bad break I got. Yet today, I consider myself the luckiest man on the face of the earth."
"There is no room in baseball for discrimination. It is our national pastime and a game for all." - Henry Louis "Lou" Gehrig
Why do you employ false dichotomies?
Neither players are perfect, though both players are great.
1. Cano has better offense
Simply not true. In his career, Pedroia has a 124 wRC+, Cano has 119. wRC+ should favor Cano more than most stats because a single is better than a walk in it, yet Cano still does worse. Using the way I use to figure out true talent, Pedroia’s true talent wRC+ is 125, Cano’s is 122.
Let me try to break down some of the stupid in what you wrote so that you can understand why it annoys me so much.
“Cano has better offense” is a ridiculous straw man. I don’t know any rational baseball fan, and few irrational baseball fans over the age of 7, who try to evaluate offense as a whole without first breaking it down into its parts.
At the plate, Pedroia shows more patience. Therefore, his statistics are less prone to fluctuations over time.
At the plate, Cano has shown significantly more power (slugging over .520 3 straight years, and 4 of his 6 seasons; Pedroia’s career high was .493 in his “MVP” season).
While Pedroia leads Cano in career wRC+, Cano had a terrible 2008 that holds him back. Look at the last 3 seasons, and Cano leads. Better yet, weight the last 3 seasons and Cano still leads. Of course a reasonable argument could be made that the difference in their wRC+ is so slight that arguing over a 3 point difference is ridiculous. But, since you made no reasonable arguments in your original post, I see no reason to be reasonable in my reply.
On your other points:
Yes, UZR rates Pedroia as a better fielder. UZR doesn’t account for positioning in any way, nor does it control for possible balls in play. If Francona has positioned his infielders deeper than Girardi has for the last several season, the numbers show a difference in result, but the results don’t mean that Francona’s playeres were better fielders, just better positioned. The Red Sox pitching staff is lousy and allows a lot of ground balls in play. That gives Pedroia (who is a great defender) more chances to make the routine “in the zone” plays that UZR values.
So now I turn this stupid little exercise back to you, Bososx13.
Prove to me that Pedroia is entirely better than Cano.
by jscape2000 on Feb 12, 2012 9:53 AM EST up reply actions 20 recs
I forgot to mention
that you completely ignore the fact that Fangraphs’ stats rank Cano as the better baserunner, and it’s not really close.
That summed up everything I was thinking when reading that part.
Beautifully written.
"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth
translation: "Tell me how my ass taste".
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
by Rorschach44 on Feb 12, 2012 6:14 PM EST up reply actions 9 recs
We’ve missed you, jscape.
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." --Rogers Hornsby
by Chris McKeown on Feb 14, 2012 3:21 PM EST up reply actions
I rather have the question Worst Contract AJ's or Lackey's
I think if you take away Pedroia’s hype from ESPN. No one has him as a top player. It plays into he’s so small and he hops like a bunny every time the pitch is on the way. I hate that every ball that is 3 feet away from him he drives, flips and rolls. Then top 10 on ESPN/web Gem. When Cano gets a rocket hit up the middle he’s like a ninja all smooth and fires it to first. Never gets the credit unless it was Joe Morgan.
by TheYankeeClipper on Feb 11, 2012 10:44 AM EST reply actions
How come Pedroia has better WAR then?
I think Lackey has a worse contract. I’m not trying to troll. The Yankee fans in this thread are. The one Rays fan was reasonable
Maybe it's because you're beating a dead horse and everybody is sick of this discussion.
"Fans, for the past two weeks you have been reading about a bad break I got. Yet today, I consider myself the luckiest man on the face of the earth."
"There is no room in baseball for discrimination. It is our national pastime and a game for all." - Henry Louis "Lou" Gehrig
by Xavier10 on Feb 11, 2012 10:52 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
They're very close...
Both are probably the best players’ on their respective teams at this point. Pedroia has an edge in acting skills as seen on his New York State lottery commercials. He also has the added motivation of playing to protect his lucky charms.
I don’t think you can brush over the huge gap in Pedroia’s home/road splits. Hitting in Fenway gives him a huge advantage. He’s very good at using that edge – which is great for him – not everyone is, but let’s also remember, this is a park that allowed Bill Mueller to win a batting title. Wrc+ is park adjusted, so it factors in the advantage Fenway gives the average player, but it doesn’t factor in the fact that Pedroia is better than the average player at using the park to his benefit. On the road, he’s a solid but not an exceptional offensive 2nd baseman, and it’s fair to believe that if he played his home games at a neutral park, he’d be closer to that player.
WAR is a useful stat for a quick comparison of players, but it’s flawed in that it weighs heavily on questionable defensive matrices. Is Pedroia a better fielder than Cano? Absolutely. Does Cano’s defense bring negative value as Fangraphs would have us believe? The eye-test, biased as it may be, says otherwise. I think fans are sometimes too willing to accept WAR as gospel, even when it suggests things that are utterly ridiculous, like “Brett Gardner has been worth under 1 win less than Cano over the past two years.” It’s a useful tool, but it’s a new tool that still needs to be tinkered with. When advanced stats suggest something so far from what your eyes tell you, the conclusion should be that there’s a flaw in the system, not that what’s logical is necessarily wrong.
by Let's Talk About Tex Baby on Feb 11, 2012 10:52 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
My problem with this argument
is that defensive statistics are pretty good. Most people would agree the methodology is perfect. There’s the problem about recording where the ball is hit. But I would trust a video scout watching a replay to record the hit location better than an umpire calling a 90 MPH pitch with no replay. Are hitting stats biased too? If you use BR’s neutralize stats function, Pedroia is a better hitter than Cano.
While it had some problems, this was by far the best argument I’ve seen so far, thank you for being reasonable unlike the other people.
I didn't say defensive stats were biased...
I said the eye-test is biased, but that doesn’t make it wholly useless. I said that defensive stats are flawed.
Defining offense statistically is a lot easier than defense because there is basically an objective uniform standard for what good offense is – some aggregate of acquiring bases to produce runs. Defense is different because there is no definition of what good defense means. Is it range? Sure-handedness? Arm strength? Defensive stats do their best to combine all of these, but I’m not sure it’s even possible to quantify defense numerically. How do you decide whether a ball should or shouldn’t have been fielded? It’s more than just where it’s hit. How hard was it hit? How was the defense positioned? There are just too many variables there.
So when it comes to a player I see enough to adequately judge, I’ll trust my own evaluation, inherently biased as it may be, over highly questionable defensive stats.
by Let's Talk About Tex Baby on Feb 11, 2012 1:37 PM EST up reply actions
MGL does adjust fore how hard it's hit.
UZR uses range, sure-handedness and arm strength. You can determine whether a ball should or shouldn’t be fielded by looking at every single play in that zone the last 10 years. We can’t measure positioning. Also there is the fans scouting report, how the fans rate players at defense. To learn more about UZR read these 3.
And these two where MGL introduced UZR, BBTF’s archives are messed up now, so I’ll have to use the way back machine for these articles.
UZR part 1
UZR part 2
FWIW DRS rates Cano much better than UZR
But Pedroia, using both eyes and various fielding metrics is a vastly superior defender. Anyone here arguing otherwise is wrong. But if you see what I posted below, I think you would see that Cano is actually a better hitter.
been a while since this was appropriate
"I could never wear another uniform. I will always be a Yankee"- Jorge Posada
Thanks for the memories Jorge
by nyyrocks29 on Feb 11, 2012 11:32 AM EST reply actions 6 recs
I guess I'll bite
1. Durability and track record
Cano’s averaged 150 games per season over 7 seasons while Pedroia’s only averaging 119 and only been in the majors for 6 seasons (or 137 over 5 if you exclude that rookie year, though I don’t see why you would)
2. Defense
I don’t see how you can argue that advanced defensive stats are that definitive when Fangraphs and Baseball-ref give completely different values. Fangraphs gives Cano an aggregate UZR of -40 while Pedo a +40 while BRef gives +3.0 dWAR and +4.2 dWAR, respectively. The difference is beyond ridiculous.
3. WAR
And if you look at bWAR, without excluding these very flawed defensive numbers, the career highs are essentially a wash (6.3+5.6 vs 6.8+5.2) while Cano has accrued 4.3 more bWAR total.
Essentially, Robinson Cano has arguably added more wins to the Yankees than Dustin has over their respective careers.
GIANTS! SB46 CHAMPS!
fWAR is better than rWAR because
UZR is way better than TZ. TZ estimates hit location based on where the average ball goes based on batter handedness and pitcher handedness. It is useful for before 2002 but from 2002-2011 there is no reason to use rWAR. Also Pedroia has better rWAR per PA and Cano is older so it makes sense to use that. Baseball reference numbers don’t use hit location at all, therefore UZR will almost always be superior to BR defensive stats. People claim How can defensive stats be so different when they are from totally different data sources and one is more complete than the other. If you argued to use DRS over UZR, that would be reasonable, although I prefer UZR, DRS still uses hit location. The Defensive metric for Oliver on THT would be fine, Total Zone with Location isn’t as good as it doesn’t use hit location for most of the plays, but at least it does for some. Even ZR or RZR is fine despite being much less complete and not adjusting at all. The stats that aren’t as complete that get used a lot because they are on sites that are used a lot is TZ and FRAA. TZ is better, but still isn’t close to UZR. Pedroia only got hurt for one season. Pedroia has been in the majors for 1 less season because he’s younger than Cano.
That “porch” doesn’t help Cano nearly as much as that girlie wall helps your dwarf. Please…
Romine!
by david d on Feb 11, 2012 12:15 PM EST up reply actions 6 recs
Cano is actually better on the road...
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?id=canoro01&year=Career&t=b#hmvis::none
"No one in football has swagger like the 'lowercase ny' Giants!"
by BrooksBridges11 on Feb 11, 2012 12:24 PM EST up reply actions
I’m surprised at the reaction this post received.
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter, Writer for On The Banks
Shocked. Really.
Tweets
"Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains"
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Feb 11, 2012 12:30 PM EST up reply actions
Not sure if serious
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter, Writer for On The Banks
Posting something wholly positive about the Red Sox on a Yankee blog doesn’t get a warm reception?
Well, I never.
Tweets
"Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains"
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Feb 11, 2012 12:54 PM EST up reply actions
I mean he uses stats and makes an actual argument, so he could at least get a fair rebuttal!
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter, Writer for On The Banks
Not the point
A Red Sox fan came and tried to find reasons to post why Pedroia is better than Cano. Whether his argument is legitimate or not, it’s not going to get a good reception on a Yankee blog.
"I could never wear another uniform. I will always be a Yankee"- Jorge Posada
Thanks for the memories Jorge
by nyyrocks29 on Feb 11, 2012 1:26 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
I could make a stat based argument for why I think that the Yankees are completely superior to the Red Sox, but I wouldn’t go post it on OTM and expect them to be like YEAH! DIDN’T THINK OF IT THAT WAY!
Tweets
"Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains"
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Feb 11, 2012 1:30 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I bet it'd have graphs too!
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
ImNotAHRHitter
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Feb 11, 2012 1:31 PM EST up reply actions
Soon.
I'm a bad example for the kids at home according to people on the Internet.
#JEDI4PSA
by Jedi Master A-Rod on Feb 11, 2012 1:40 PM EST up reply actions
If you did that, I would make fair arguments back
Yanke fan arguments are
Cano looks like a natural
Cano hits more home runs
Cano has a sweeter swing
Cano could be great if he tried
Pedroia has down syndrome
I wouldn’t do that because it’s completely unproductive.
Tweets
"Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains"
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Feb 11, 2012 1:38 PM EST up reply actions
Are you a full grown person?
You just can’t be.
Congrats to all who have turned PA into the Yahoo comment boards. New it couldn't last forever. Damn idiots had to go and win the World Series. The dude at the 7 eleven keeps saying fat man in undearwear punch my eye.
by cashman bashman on Feb 18, 2012 6:03 PM EST up reply actions
I think you'd be surprised how many might agree with you over there.
Label me as not impressed with the new GM.
I am Sandy's bitch
We Are Because You Were
@WadePSU
Yeah, I gotta say
He’s made some curious moves.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
ImNotAHRHitter
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Feb 11, 2012 3:21 PM EST up reply actions
Free up money for pitching! Sign outfielder instead!
We’d be burning things down by now.
Tweets
"Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains"
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Feb 11, 2012 3:29 PM EST up reply actions
Our podcast would be livid!
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
ImNotAHRHitter
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Feb 11, 2012 3:40 PM EST up reply actions
Nothing like moving dirt from here to there to energize an already pissed off fanbase.
I am Sandy's bitch
We Are Because You Were
@WadePSU
I don’t blame you guys. It’s been kind of absurd to watch it all go down from our perspective. Seems a bit like throwing a ton of crap at a wall and praying that enough of it sticks to tread water when that wasn’t really necessary to do.
Tweets
"Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains"
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Feb 11, 2012 7:59 PM EST up reply actions
Being concerned that your GM traded Scutaro for a chump & some more possible change
is considered insane pessimism on OTM? I mean, if the Red Sox don’t sign Oswalt then I don’t see the point of that trade at all.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
ImNotAHRHitter
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Feb 11, 2012 7:33 PM EST up reply actions
I think they’ll get Oswalt. Cardinals don’t have the money, Texas is out, and he doesn’t want to pitch with anyone else.
And if they don't?
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
ImNotAHRHitter
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Feb 11, 2012 7:36 PM EST up reply actions
the insane pessimism is saying they'll end up 5th in the AL East
by Sawxfan and Sean O saying they’ll win 80 games
You didn't answer my question
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
ImNotAHRHitter
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Feb 11, 2012 7:39 PM EST up reply actions
If that's why they traded Scutaro
I’d like to think there were much better ways to do that. That and down the line they could probably have gotten something better for him.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
ImNotAHRHitter
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Feb 11, 2012 7:43 PM EST up reply actions
They're already going to be over the luxury tax
They’d have to move over half of Youkilis’s contract to get under.
I am Sandy's bitch
We Are Because You Were
@WadePSU
So you're not an insane pessimist?
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
ImNotAHRHitter
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Feb 11, 2012 7:55 PM EST up reply actions
I'm pessimistic
Not insanely so. I feel if they got a starting pitcher they’d be looking at the season only a little worse for wear than we were looking at 2011, the main difference being now we’re aren’t expecting so much from Crawford. With neutral rather than catastrophic luck, this team with another pitcher is a playoff contender. Without a pitcher I’m not so sure. There are insane pessimists, I should not be counted among them.
I am Sandy's bitch
We Are Because You Were
@WadePSU
Can I ask a question?
Why not move Crawford to RF? I mean, he was a pretty great defender so I don’t see why they wouldn’t move him to where his defense could be put to better use.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
ImNotAHRHitter
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Feb 11, 2012 8:09 PM EST up reply actions
The big problem with that is Carl's arm.
It isn’t particularly strong and it would need to be for RF. He could get to most stuff, but he wouldn’t hold runners. You can usually get away with that in LF because typically you’re throwing against runners, in RF you’re throwing with them.
I am Sandy's bitch
We Are Because You Were
@WadePSU
Understandable
But wouldn’t the range he offers be worth more than his arm in RF?
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
ImNotAHRHitter
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Feb 11, 2012 8:23 PM EST up reply actions
Potentially
But I have no idea if range is more valuable than an arm, I really don’t think defensive stats are there yet.
I am Sandy's bitch
We Are Because You Were
@WadePSU
That's good for at least 4th.
Orioles won’t be approaching that number.
FREE GUYER!
by SandalsNoPants on Feb 11, 2012 8:08 PM EST up reply actions
He doesn’t make an argument!
He proposes for us what our reaction should be, uses certain stats to beat the straw man, and then tells us to prove to him why he’s wrong.
If he had posted a chart comparing the two players across 5 or 6 categories, and then drew a conclusion, THAT is making an argument.
Why am I so angry about this post? I needz Spring Training.
by jscape2000 on Feb 12, 2012 9:58 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Except that his response when he gets a rebuttal aren't very impressive
When actually receiving a rebuttal from the posters in parens below, he responded with the following techniques:
(1) I ignore your rebuttal, you and your ninja viewpoints (jscape);
(2) Statistics that agree with my premise are good, statistics that don’t are flawed (Letstalkabout Tex, Charles L); or
(3) I will respond with a factually incorrect riposte (david d) and ignore it when someone is gauche enough to point this out (brooksbridges11).
If you ignore rebuttals, you get abuse. At this point to me he seems more like a kid poking a nest with a stick to see how much buzzing he can start up.
warm, like apple pie
mmmm….pie
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
Read Graham MacAree's article
on splits here they are not very predictive. park factors are better than home/away splits
Um, no.
As shown above, Cano is better on the road. You insinuated he was helped by the RF porch. What are dwarfboy’s home/away splits? Not sure? It’s here:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?id=pedrodu01&year=Career&t=b
He’s obviously helped by your girlie wall.
Romine!
In the long run, I don't think it matters
Both are arguably the best 2nd basemen in the AL, possibly the majors, and while Shrimpy McHustleheart might be a better player by a little bit, I don’t think you’d find a Yankee fan who’d take him over Cano.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
ImNotAHRHitter
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Feb 11, 2012 12:27 PM EST reply actions 5 recs
"...Shrimpy McHustleheart..."
Rec’d for the best nickname EVER.
Just once I'd like someone to call me "Sir," without adding, "You're making a scene."
Really think you're barking up the wrong tree
If you expect a bunch of Yankees fans to just through their arms up and admit “well I guess you are right”, well you’re going to be waiting a long time. They hate Pedroia the same way we hate Cano, both sides feel that they get a lot of press for stupid reasons. They’re both elite players at their position, just leave it at that. What do you think would happen if someone from PSA came over to OTM and did this same post but on CC and Lester? That’s the sort of crap you are inviting over at OTM, hope you were aware.
I am Sandy's bitch
We Are Because You Were
@WadePSU
Don't worry
Brandon constantly encourages us not to go and troll over there!
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
ImNotAHRHitter
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Feb 11, 2012 1:17 PM EST up reply actions
racist.
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
by Rorschach44 on Feb 11, 2012 6:17 PM EST up reply actions 6 recs
A bit?
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." --Rogers Hornsby
by Chris McKeown on Feb 14, 2012 3:24 PM EST up reply actions
Does Pedroia have something wrong with him like downs
Im being serious. When they show him in the games he does that Face thing. He like stretcheshis faces in a weird way. Im not making fun of him if he does. Its just somthing i was wondering.
by TheYankeeClipper on Feb 11, 2012 1:32 PM EST reply actions
I know I've seen him do that
stretching out face thing but here’s something
My Argument
Better WAR
better hitter
better fielder
Yankee fan argument
Sweeter swing
looks like a natural
more home runs
Pedroia has down syndrome
Seriously, what does that have to do with his question?
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
ImNotAHRHitter
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Feb 11, 2012 1:42 PM EST up reply actions
Its not downs, it's Being a Giant Douche Disease
Cricket blogger and writer of nonsense at 7500 to Holte
by MattF15 on Feb 11, 2012 2:19 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions 6 recs
It's sad that this couldn't have been a decent conversation.
It is entertaining, though.
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can anyone explain to me how you can really adjust for the green monster?
does a lazy fly ball that goes off it for a double count as a double for an out? i really just never got how things can truly be park adjusted. also, cano’s fielding stats have been very inconsistent, when his head is in the game he is better then the chinless midget, but his head isnt always in the game. regardless i am not willing to peddy the complete edge here.
as for offense it depends on what you prefer. a contact hitter who hits with serious power, guy who can be the heart of your lineup. or a OBP guy who really doesnt have much power without a random wall. both have serious value, but from a second basemen i prefer cano.
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Saying that Pedroia doesn't have much power
really undersells him and your entire argument.
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by SandalsNoPants on Feb 11, 2012 4:08 PM EST up reply actions
discredits* your argument
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by SandalsNoPants on Feb 11, 2012 4:09 PM EST up reply actions
its exaggerating. but fair enough.
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by nodisrespect on Feb 11, 2012 4:12 PM EST up reply actions
seriously though, can anyone answer the question about park adjustments. how can you really remove that wall, or the short porch in yankee stadium?
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by nodisrespect on Feb 11, 2012 4:14 PM EST up reply actions
you look at team Home/Road splits
for 5 years. Home/Road split mean nothing for players, but for teams they mean something.
Wait... home road splits over a large sample size mean nothing for players?
What have you been smoking?
"Does any of you know what diversity is?"
"I believe that it is an old, old wooden ship, used during the civil war era."
You can't, especially for fielding
It’s one of the things we learned when Manny was traded. The stats said, he should be x bad taken out of Fenway, and Jason Bay going into Fenway should rate y. Instead, we found out that Manny was x+5 and Bay was y-5. Which means that we hadn’t been adjusting enough for the challenges of fielding in Fenway.
That has led many of us to suspect that we undervalue the way the wall plays. We understand pretty well how it effects balls that go out of play (homers), but we don’t really understand how its caroms and the fielder’s anticipations of those caroms effect play on the field.
by jscape2000 on Feb 12, 2012 10:04 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yes park factors are used
but our knowledge of how much each park is a factor is imprecise.
Furthermore, park factors aren’t useful to evaluate individual players. If I understand them correctly, they involve comparing the average home and away splits of teams over 5 year periods and looking for trends. So a park factor does nothing to tell us how to identify the next Mike Lowell whose career can be revived by Fenway.
by jscape2000 on Feb 12, 2012 12:03 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
it's kind of easy,
you just look how every player at that position has done home and away, and you look at the opposing team.
Splits
Pedroia:
2011 Home: 147 wRC+
2011 Away: 121 wRC+
Career Home: 138 wRC+
Career Away: 108 wRC+
Cano:
2011 Home: 135 wRC+
2011 Away: 132 wRC+
Career Home: 117 wRC+
Career Away: 120 wRC+
Pedroia has had an eggregious home-road split his entire career while Cano typically hits better on the road. Cano is the better hitter, Pedroia is a much better defender.
by Briceratops on Feb 11, 2012 4:37 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
This
"Fans, for the past two weeks you have been reading about a bad break I got. Yet today, I consider myself the luckiest man on the face of the earth."
"There is no room in baseball for discrimination. It is our national pastime and a game for all." - Henry Louis "Lou" Gehrig
And just for fun:
Cano in 273 PA in Fenway park has hit .355/.385/.590, good for a .975 OPS. That’s a lot better than he has done in YS2 and YS3 (.788 OPS and .892 OPS respectively). Although that could be the product of a relatively small sample size.
Would you please stop smacking this poor guy's argument down?
Romine!
by david d on Feb 12, 2012 6:58 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Yeah guys, show some mercy!
"Does any of you know what diversity is?"
"I believe that it is an old, old wooden ship, used during the civil war era."
Look at Cano's Fenway numbers.
Give Robbie a stupid wall in left field and he’s a triple crown winner.
"Fans, for the past two weeks you have been reading about a bad break I got. Yet today, I consider myself the luckiest man on the face of the earth."
"There is no room in baseball for discrimination. It is our national pastime and a game for all." - Henry Louis "Lou" Gehrig
The splits are your only argument
and you can’t just throw away half the stats. Cano’ sample size in Fenway is tiny. wRC+ is park adjusted that means Pedroia is hitting worse on the road, not because of the park, but because of the home field advantage or something else. Home/Road splits mean almost nothing
and you can’t just throw away half the stats
I didn’t throw away any stats. I gave career and 2011 numbers for each player.
Pedroia is hitting worse on the road, not because of the park, but because of the home field advantage or something else. Home/Road splits mean almost nothing
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Yeah, all the “ra-ra-ra’s!” at Fenway park are the reason Pedroia is leaps and bounds better hitting at home than on the road. Give me a break.
by Briceratops on Feb 11, 2012 6:06 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
It's not throwing out half his stats....
…to suggest that the fact that in over 1,600 career plate appearances on the road, Pedroia’s production is nowhere near what it is at Fenway. The reason wRC+ is unable to account for this is that Pedroia is more skilled than the average player at using Fenway to his advantage. To suggest that a .113 difference in OPS over more than five seasons can be explained by something intangible like “home field advantage” is ridiculous. Yeah, Pedroia has a home field advantage – it’s called the Green Monster.
Players who play in neutral parks don’t have home/road splits that drastic.
by Let's Talk About Tex Baby on Feb 11, 2012 6:08 PM EST up reply actions
but how do we know if Pedroia knew any other park really well,
he couldn’t just adjust to it like Fenway?
well Victor Martinez played in Fenway
in 2010, he had drastic H/R splits, a 92 wRC+ on the road, and guess what, in 2011 he was a 130 wRC+ hitter. H/R splits mean absolutely nothing
You’re picking and choosing one year here and one year there. They are talking about OVER A CAREER. That’s not an anomaly.
V-Mart for his career: 126 wRC+ at home, 134 wRC+ on the road.
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by WhatwouldJeterdo on Feb 11, 2012 6:50 PM EST up reply actions
Pardon, that was his 2011 numbers only. Point stands, though. One year is not meaningful.
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by WhatwouldJeterdo on Feb 11, 2012 6:51 PM EST up reply actions
V-Mart’s actual career home/away splits:
123 wRC+ at home, 119 wRC+ on the road.
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by WhatwouldJeterdo on Feb 11, 2012 6:52 PM EST up reply actions
Making up numbers is fun!
Holliday is a career 139 wRC+, and last year he was a 154. NEXT!
by Wraithpk on Feb 14, 2012 11:40 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
One year of home away splits vs career splits. One year is not meaningful. Pedroia’s entire career has been massively helped by Fenway.
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by WhatwouldJeterdo on Feb 11, 2012 6:55 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t see how that changes anything.
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by WhatwouldJeterdo on Feb 11, 2012 6:59 PM EST up reply actions
You said
“One year of home away splits vs career splits. One year is not meaningful. Pedroia’s entire career has been massively helped by Fenway.” so Matt Holliday’s career road wRC+ was 117, he isn’t a 117 wRC+ hitters. H/R splits mean nothing, hitters can adapt when hitting in a park every day. I could find a ton more examples
So is WAR and UZR.
"There is no room in baseball for discrimination. It is our national pastime and a game for all." - Henry Louis "Lou" Gehrig
Citizens Bank park is neutral per
here Chase Utley has career H/R splits of 141 at home and 124 on the road. Home/Road splits mean nothing
Progressive Field is neutral
Grady Sizemore has a career 132 wRC+ at home and a 111 wRC+ on the road
Tell us about Millar’s H/R splits, David Ortíz H/R splits. Do you want the opposite? check Adrián González H/R splits at PetCo and 2011’s H/R splits.
Of course H/R splits are valid and useful when analyzing a span of various years, it gives you more than enough data collected to make an analysis.
by Miguel Angel Barajas on Feb 12, 2012 6:06 PM EST up reply actions
Interesting article
While I don’t feel the need to get into this argument with you, being that there’s no point in it, what I would like to point out is this quote from it…
It is to say that while understanding park factors and how particular parks can affect batters (and pitchers) is important, that simply looking at career home/road splits as the gospel is not the best way to evaluate whether a batter is a figment of the park’s construction or simply behaving like most major leaguers.
I would recommend simply allowing the built-in park adjustments within projection systems do the math for you while exercising common sense in extreme cases.
Notice the part I bolded? What he seems to be saying is that Home/Road splits are not the be all end all point of determining the value of a player, they still play somewhat of a factor. Also keep in mind that it’s not to be used for determining the value of a player, which we’re not discussing. We’re, quite foolishly, talking about whether McHustleheart is a better player than Cano.
People here are not just using H/R splits to determine who is better, but the fact that a lot of the stats show that Cano & McHustleheart are pretty much damn near even in terms of 2B talent in the AL, while you’re completely and utterly dismissing the fact that Fenway’s giant mistake in LF help players in Boston. The Green Monster is indeed an “extreme case” and until Shrimpy actually plays for another team so we can see that the stupid wall doesn’t affect his performance, it is indeed a factor in this particular discussion whether you want to believe it or not!
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by I'mGivingYouARaise on Feb 11, 2012 7:29 PM EST up reply actions
Actually Park factors might not be appropriate
let’s use stat corner’s handedness adjusted park factors instead. For righties, Fenway has a wOBA park factor of 107, you have to make that 103.5 because a player only plays half his games in home so then Pedroia’s adjusted wOBA is .365, 103 for Yankee stadium for lefties so 101.5 so Cano’s adjusted wOBA is .353. Pedroia wins while adjusting for handedness.
And you've completely missed the point of what I was trying to say
Bravo
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by I'mGivingYouARaise on Feb 11, 2012 7:36 PM EST up reply actions
My question is why
did Matt Holliday not all of a sudden become a 117 wRC+ hitter when he left Coors.
And still missing the point
I think I’m done here!
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
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by I'mGivingYouARaise on Feb 11, 2012 7:43 PM EST up reply actions
I didn't miss the point because
if home/road splits mean nothing to how a player will perform in a different park, why should they affect an x vs x comparison?
HAHAHA
And you’re STILL missing the point. That’s strike 3. I’m done.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
ImNotAHRHitter
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Feb 11, 2012 7:47 PM EST up reply actions
Fenway's wall helps players in Boston
but it helps all players in Boston, not just Pedroia, that’s why park factors are more accurate than home/road splits. It probably helps right handers more too so I adjusted for that too with stat corner’s righty park factors. Why would the Green Monster affect Pedroia more than any other righty on the red sox?
“Why would the Green Monster affect Pedroia more than any other righty on the red sox?”
He pulls the ball, but he’s not the only righty beneffited by the wall, please don’t put words in other people’s mouths, it won’t help your argument.
Check the H/R splits of other righties who pull the ball, like Youkilis.
And for an example of a player who hits towards any field, check Derek Jeter, he who the redsox fanbase calls “the worst shortstop of his era”, even when he has better stats than Barry Larkin who just got elected to the HoF.
by Miguel Angel Barajas on Feb 12, 2012 6:56 PM EST up reply actions
I noticed the parts you bolded
and also noticed there are no curse words within. What gives?
Romine!
Mods don't curse
"I could never wear another uniform. I will always be a Yankee"- Jorge Posada
Thanks for the memories Jorge
Fixed
while understanding the fucking park factors and how particular parks can affect dicktarded batters (and pitchers) is important
while exercising common sense in extreme fucking cases.
Call it my “Ode to IGYAR”
Romine!
banned
"I could never wear another uniform. I will always be a Yankee"- Jorge Posada
Thanks for the memories Jorge
Lovely
But don’t worry. Whether I curse or not, he’s still missing the point even after having a chance to sleep on it.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
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by I'mGivingYouARaise on Feb 12, 2012 1:18 PM EST up reply actions
How does one adapt to a hitting every day in a new park by improving their ROAD numbers?
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by WhatwouldJeterdo on Feb 11, 2012 7:10 PM EST up reply actions
Cano doesn't look like a hampster. Argument over.
Cricket blogger and writer of nonsense at 7500 to Holte
by MattF15 on Feb 11, 2012 6:07 PM EST reply actions 6 recs
this is extremely racist.
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
by Rorschach44 on Feb 12, 2012 9:10 AM EST up reply actions 5 recs
Who cares about the splits?
In 2007 Matt Holliday had a 113 wRC+ on the road. He changed teams, was on the Cardinals, and now has a 154 wRC+. In 2010 Victor Martinez had a 92 wRC+ om the road. In 2011, he did not have a 92 wRC+ but a 130 wRC+. In 2008 Mark Texiera had a 136 wRC+ on the road in 2009, he had a 141 wRC+. Adam Dunn had almost even splits in 2010 and in 2011 put up a 59 wRC+.
Home/Road splits mean absolutely nothing
the big dumb wall makes all stars out of RH batters who are otherwise average
Jim Rice is not a HOFer.
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
How come Victor Martinez did well on the road then?
I do agree with you, sadly, that Jim Rice is not a hall of famer, but for other reasons. Dwight Evans should be a hall of famer by the way
Martinez is a switch hitter
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
You aren't ever going to win that argument when they are talking about career splits and you are nitpicking single seasons.
They point that out and you continue looking at single seasons.
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Non Yankee fans ensured that it will hang around a while by rec’ing it.
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by WhatwouldJeterdo on Feb 11, 2012 8:19 PM EST up reply actions
Haha, I know it wasn’t.
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by WhatwouldJeterdo on Feb 11, 2012 8:20 PM EST up reply actions
haha did someone unrec this?
hilarious!
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by SandalsNoPants on Feb 12, 2012 2:56 PM EST up reply actions
Cano is not a balding midget who has minor seizures before every pitch.
End of argument.
"There is no room in baseball for discrimination. It is our national pastime and a game for all." - Henry Louis "Lou" Gehrig
If we want to use something more accurate then wOBA, how about markov chains
using Markov from Tango’s site, Pedroia is worth 6.588 runs per game over his career. Cano is worth 6.095 runs per game. If we use the handedness adjusted park factors that’s 6.365 for Pedroia and 6.004 for Cano. This is an even bigger advantage for Pedroia than plain wOBA, probably because of his higher OBP and less Ks
canos better
pedroias overrated
imo cano’s a better fielder and a way better hitter… so i dont see what makes pedrioa better other then speed maybe
I highly doubt anyone didn't do that
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by Rorschach44 on Feb 12, 2012 9:09 AM EST up reply actions 6 recs
If you want to use the stupid splits argument, I can play that game,
Cano
-5.0 career UZR/150 at home
-7.2 career UZR/150 on road
Pedroia
6.0 UZR/150 at home
7.5 UZR/150 away
Dude, I don't think anyone is claiming Cano is a better fielder.
Also that’s not what we were debating, good job. We were debating the offense, which Cano is wholly better at.
"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth
I think it's closer than you're making it seem.
The biggest difference is in power, and Pedroia has been closing the gap the past couple of seasons.
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by SandalsNoPants on Feb 12, 2012 2:53 PM EST up reply actions
Actually a bigger difference than their power at this point in their careers
is probably their plate discipline. They’re both very good contact hitters, but Pedroia is able to get on base much more often.
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by SandalsNoPants on Feb 12, 2012 2:55 PM EST up reply actions
I think the earlier post was a point missed..
They are both good, but Pedroia misses too many games due to injury. So if you look at durability and being there when the team needs you…Cano by a mile!! This will become more evident when he gets his next contract. The man will get paid like crazy.
by Kansas Yankee on Feb 11, 2012 11:30 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Too many games?
08 – 157
09 – 154
10 – 75
11 – 159
He’s only missed “too many” games once in the last four years and it was a broken foot. He’s been very healthy in his career otherwise and is in no description of the word, injury prone, in the other years he’s gotten nothing but regular time off. The Red Sox have no reason to question his durability or think he won’t be there, no more than the Yankees should question Cano’s.
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You forgot the sarcasm font.
Just once I'd like someone to call me "Sir," without adding, "You're making a scene."
It's not exactly either one of them by a large margin.
But I’ll take Cano any day because he doesn’t play in Fenway. If Cano played in Fenway he would post better numbers than Pedroia. Yankee Stadium is too friendly to hitters, but Cano’s splits in Fenway are really good.
Cano slightly better than Pedroia.
So you're basing your argument off of 274 PAs
Why don’t people just use park factors? Although, they probably would use park factors if this thread was about Brett Gardner. They would totally ignore the splits if this is about Brett Gardner.
Brett Gardner has a career UZR/150 24 points lower on the road than at home, but do I dock him for that? No. UZR is already park adjusted so you don’t have to use splits just like wRC+. The only thing splits are good for is when people say that a player is a terrible fit for a park, but his splits are much better at home than on the road(Carl Crawford) that’s probably a good indicator he’s not a terrible fit for a park.
Well the statistics are close enough.
Park factors aren’t perfect either. Though I do like using wRC+ and even wOBA. UZR isn’t my thing. Not a fan because I see Cano make plays. UZR just isn’t a great enough metric in my opinion to form an opinion of someones defense. Both are pretty much equally great players. I’ll take Cano’s slightly better bat over Pedroia’s slightly better glove. It’s as simple as that.
why is Cano's bat slightly better
and as I pointed out, Cano does make more hard plays than Pedroia, he just misses the easy ones
I think what you aren't accepting is
Is that while SB Nation is saber friendly, a lot of us do not take these stats hook line and sinker. Especially when it comes to defense, there is simply too much that needs to be measured that they can’t and instead they plug in some parametric. As a meteorologist, I understand, things that can’t be measured at the scale we need to is most of the reason why weather forecasts aren’t great, its because we need to know everything that occurs on every scale from below your feet through the entire atmosphere to the sun and across the entire face of the planet, it’s impossible. It’s similarly impossible to try and measure every single thing that occurs from the moment a ball leaves a bat, is scooped by a short stop, tossed to a second baseman and then chucked to first. Any small error in anyone of the parametrics is compounded as that parametric is calculated over and over again and plugged into the bigger equation. It works the same with park factors.
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I'm a sabermetric guy.
But doesn’t mean I agree with every single statistic thrown out there.
Linning and Winning!
Any statistic, sabermetric or otherwise, used alone in a vacuum is a poor use of resources. None of them by themselves can tell an entire story, though some do a better job than others, so it’s best to use as many as you possibly can. Sabermetrics certainly aren’t a perfect science, but some people go overboard (like our Red Sox fan visitor here) and try to use this one or that one as an absolute gospel without looking at the multitude of statistics that disagree. It’s just not good analysis.
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by WhatwouldJeterdo on Feb 12, 2012 6:52 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
The reason splits are stupid is
you are basically saying whatever a player does at home does not count at all. Park factors use both home and road performance. Also, most players play better at home than on the road
You still haven't responded to jscape's post.
It does not mention home/road splits once and pretty much destroys your argument. So… yeah.
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"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth
H/R splits don't destroy my argument because I just did a study
Park factors are more accurate than H/R splits. Career wRC+ has a .548 corelation to next year wRC+ when switching teams. Career away wRC+ has a .323 correlation to next year wRC+ when switching teams. So there goes your argument
Come on dude
I haven’t read jscape’s post but:
it does not mention home/road splits once
and you reply with:
H/R splits don’t destroy my argument because I just did a study
Without having read jscapes reply, I now assume it doesn’t have to do with splits and your retort is, splits won’t destroy my argument? Do you really read what people say?
For the love of Jobu go up and read jscape’s retort, you’re embarrassing us over here. Just found it, it’s the long green one way up there, now you know where it is.
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Not usually 30 points of wRC+ better. Reason: wall.
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by WhatwouldJeterdo on Feb 12, 2012 2:37 PM EST up reply actions
So since I found out
Park factors are much more accurate than home/road splits, I guess that’s the end of Yankee fan’s argument
Let me ask you a question...
Since I’m always curious about fan interaction and it might pertain to an article I plan to write in the future.
What exactly did you hope to accomplish with this? I mean, you clearly came here with all the research and goal of trying to prove that one super elite 2B was better than another super elite 2B, but did you really expect the fanbase of the most hated rivalry in sports was just going to up and agree with you? I mean, I saw the post at OTM and it hasn’t even really garnered any sort of response, probably for the obvious reason that you don’t have to convince Red Sox fans that Pedroia is a better 2B than Cano, since most probably think he is anyway. I mean, what type of discussion were you actually hoping for here OR there? Hell, no matter what evidence, facts, opinions, or stats anyone here presented, were any of the people on PSA actually going to convince you?
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
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by I'mGivingYouARaise on Feb 12, 2012 4:04 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
He's a Red Sox fan.
"There is no room in baseball for discrimination. It is our national pastime and a game for all." - Henry Louis "Lou" Gehrig
Not the point
Rogue Nine seems to understand why this whole thing is futile, and he’s a Red Sox fan as well.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
ImNotAHRHitter
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Feb 12, 2012 5:00 PM EST up reply actions
Rogue Nine is an exception.
"There is no room in baseball for discrimination. It is our national pastime and a game for all." - Henry Louis "Lou" Gehrig
Number of convicted child molesters in the family:
Dustin Pedroia: 1
Robinson Cano: 0
Advantage: Cano
If only the Chamberlain family was relevant to this conversation.
Next time Briceratops… next time.
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@WadePSU
Oh dear
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter, Writer for On The Banks
One word would have sufficed as to why Pedroia is better: Grit
Kidding aside, Cano will go down as one of the greatest second basemen in history. He is among the elite in the game right now. His swing is the most fluid and prettiest in all of baseball, his arm is absolutely incredible (i’d like to see Pedroia make Cano’s signature across-the-body throw), and he hasnt even reached his full potential yet.
You think Cano's still going to get better?
I mean, maybe, but I don’t know. He’s already in the middle of his prime.
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by SandalsNoPants on Feb 12, 2012 9:56 PM EST up reply actions
I dont see any reason as to why not. Even the slightest improvement in plate discipline would make him that much better of a player
I need to say this first
You should be ashamed, despite your written intentions its very obvious that you did this to insight a general anger in Yankee fans.
With that said, neither Cano nor Pedroia are better or worse than the other, they are just different. You site career totals but at the same time you also fail to note that advanced stats for Cano’s career are heavily skewed due to his dreadful 2008 season where he posted an 84 WRC+.
Before then and after that one season his and Pedrioia’s numbers are almost identical.
You also site defense, but most experts agree that defensive stats are very unreliable, with most not even able to agree on who or what is a great fielder. Cano is despised by UZR, but other stats rate him quite favorably. Measuring defense is no better or worse than the eyeball test due to the heavy contradictions. Pedrioa is an excellent fielder, his range is without a doubt greater than Cano’s, but Cano’s arm is far stronger than Pedroia’s allowing him to make plays that Pedroia would not. They both have strengths and they both field in a manner that takes advantage of that strength.
neither is better than the other, they both produce at high levels but do so because of different skills
You should type this out on a word processor or something to help with the typos.
Unfortunately, though, most of the typos are homophones, and they might not be noticed, so perhaps you could hire an intern?
Trust me, it will help your argument look more legitimate.
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by SandalsNoPants on Feb 13, 2012 7:09 AM EST up reply actions
Oh please.
He misspelled incite and cite, and had a typo on Pedroia once, but let’ not forget there is no edit button after you post.
No need to be condescending and say he needs an intern to comment.
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by waw on Feb 13, 2012 3:45 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
2 recs to make it green?
I thought Yankees fans had high standards!
FREE GUYER!
by SandalsNoPants on Feb 13, 2012 8:43 PM EST up reply actions
Three recs.
"There is no room in baseball for discrimination. It is our national pastime and a game for all." - Henry Louis "Lou" Gehrig
The last five years, Fenway Park has ranked second, second, first, first, and first in friendliness to doubles (link), so you could easily say that it is well established as the most doubles friendly park in all of baseball. Here are some career splits for Pedroia:
Home: 19.8 LD%, 41.7 GB%, 38.6 FB%, 8.0 HR/FB%
Away: 20.3 LD%, 44.2 GB%, 35.5 FB%, 7.7 HR/FB%
Home: 9.2 BB%, 8.4 K%
Away: 9.6 BB%, 8.4 K%
There is really no difference in his approach or contact rates in either situation. Now, for some results (1599 PA at home, 1602 PA on the road, so fully comparable)
Singles: 284 at home vs. 289 on the road.
Doubles: 130 at home vs. 76 on the road.
Triples: 4 at home vs. 4 on the road
Home Runs: 40 at home vs. 35 on the road.
Everything he does at home vs. on the road is damn close to identical, except hitting doubles, which he does much, much more of at home, in the most doubles friendly ballpark at baseball. And you’re seriously going to act as if Fenway isn’t a factor? Get real.
by Lord Duggan on Feb 13, 2012 5:59 PM EST reply actions 7 recs
Except that it’s not that simple at all. Park factors are notoriously crude averages that have a very limited use when talking about individual players, and almost no use at all when talking about an extreme case like Pedroia. Is Pedroia benefiting from the park dimensions at the rate average to all right handed hitters? All of the evidence on the matter points to him having a swing tailored perfectly to the ballpark that greatly enhances his ability to hit doubles.
How many of those fly balls should be outs? What is the proper number of points we should knock off of his average and slugging percentages? Should we take off any at all? They are doubles and you can only hit in the ballpark that you’re in. It’s a complicated equation that is different for each individual player and really doesn’t have a right answer. If you think that you can get any definitive answer by saying “Park factors. Go.” and punching in a number, then you’re really missing the point entirely.
The only thing that is clear is that all the evidence points towards Pedroia getting a significant boost in his ability to hit doubles from the Green Monster. We can speculate (poorly) as to the level at which he is helped, but saying things like “Home/Road splits mean absolutely nothing” is inherently wrong, which was the point that I was making in my post.
by Lord Duggan on Feb 13, 2012 11:13 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
It was actually the point I was making in my post up above which he just didn't grasp
The guy who wrote the article he linked to also mentioned how where it’s not the be all end all of stats to determine a players value it still does serve a purpose if used correctly and with other factors involved, and that some extreme cases do exist if you use common sense. The Green Monster is an extreme case.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
ImNotAHRHitter
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Feb 14, 2012 12:14 AM EST up reply actions
Your accounts are biased
3 year weighted averages of wRC+ have Cano at 132.4, and Pedroia at 127.5. That means that Cano has been better recently, and will likely be better in the near future.
Cano’s best seasons of wRC+ are 141 and 133. Pedroia’s are 134 and 131. Thus, Cano’s high end has been better.
3 year weighted averages of Win Probability Added has Cano at 2.069, and Pedroia at 1.147. Thus, Cano has done more in high leverage situations.
Defense I will give you. TZL and DRS tend to think that Cano is a pretty good fielder, while UZR is the only one that thinks he is bad. In situations like this, you make a judgement call with the eye test, and the eye test says that TZL and DRS are probably right. Pretty much all the stats agree that Pedroia is better, however.
So there you go. The fair and rational conclusion is that Cano is the better offensive player and Pedroia is the better defender. Anyone who disagrees with that statement is being biased one way or the other.
The Savior has come, and he is glorious. #63
I wouldn't draw the conclusion that Cano will continue to be better
Because he doesn’t walk much, his OBP is more subject to his BA than Pedroia’s. I’d feel more comfortable to predict Pedroia to repeat his last season than Cano. That said, I expect another great year from Cano, especially if Girardi bats someone who can hit behind him (see Duggan’s numerous posts about how Cano’s breakout 2010 was the result of seeing more fastballs in front of Arod; I usually dismiss or ignore the concept of lineup “protection” but in this case I am convinced that we saw a mirage improvement that was the result of a change in pitcher’s choice of what to throw rather than a hitter’s choice of what to swing at).
Three year averages
are a shortcut version of true talent, if you use the real true talent, each year has 80% the significance of the last one, like I did in the post, Pedroia comes on top
Comes out on top by how much? What’s the difference between the two? Considering all the variables in play how big a difference is really necessary to declare one player better than the other?
Of course, I’m happy to agree with the statistic that Dustin Pedroia has an average wRC+ greater than Robinson Cano’s wRC+. What I’m asking is, does this really give us a picture of the value of the two players? Is that picture really clear enough to start a chest-thumping “my guy is better than your guy” argument over? You haven’t convinced me that Pedroia stands head and shoulders above Cano.
So, the answer to his question is no. Got it.
Tweets
"Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains"
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Feb 15, 2012 9:40 PM EST up reply actions
so it's very close,
and Pedroia comes out on top slightly, so that can’t be an argument for Cano. It shouldn’t be one for Pedroia either because they are so close, but it makes no sense to make that argument for Cano.
I'm not arguing for Cano
I’m saying your suggestion that we have an argument is dumb. They are two very comparable players, who have been (to this point of their careers) equally valuable.
Do you know why WAR isn’t calculated to the hundredth or thousandth decimal place? It’s because within the margins of error and the margins of logic, there’s no point in debating players of similar enough ranking.
Except that your entire theory is flawed. You are counting each year in a player’s career, however players can improve or degenerate by large margins over the span of a couple years. Do you really believe that Robinson Cano’s 84 wRC+ in 2008 has any relevance to what kind of hitter he is today? If you are sane, and I’ll assume you are, then you would agree that it does not, so it should not be included in any calculation of his current ability.
Using numbers from 7 seasons ago when these guys were rookies just has no relevance. Everyone knows that Pedroia was the better player for several years, but Cano was a late bloomer and has just become the player he is over the last few years.
by Wraithpk on Feb 14, 2012 7:25 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
yes it has some relevance
and 3 years is just cherrypicking along with any other set of years. Cano’s 2008 has some value, as does every year. The rookie data has some relevance, but it has almost no weight, as it’s weight is 5x less the weight of 2011.
I don't know
if this has been discussed before. 260 comments is a lot.
Pedroia gets a huge boost from playing at Fenway, which really favors RHB. He gets a .113 boost in OPS in Boston. Cano gets no bonus from YS.
Ballpark adjusted stats (like wRC+) don’t take into account a player’s handedness, and we know that parks sometimes favor one handedness far more than the other. If you were running a team in a neutral park, you’d want Cano.
But Pedroia fits well as a Red Sock. He’s built for that park. Take him out of it and he’s Rickie Weeks.
In a little self promotion, check this out.
We’ve repeatedly tried, but to no avail.
Tweets
"Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains"
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Feb 14, 2012 12:19 AM EST up reply actions
LOL Fenway
"I could never wear another uniform. I will always be a Yankee"- Jorge Posada
Thanks for the memories Jorge
Went last year for the first time, I loved it.
by MichaelGGBGrabow on Feb 16, 2012 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
Volvo.
Vulva
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
by Rorschach44 on Feb 16, 2012 11:38 PM EST up reply actions
Basically, the things I’ve learned in this thread are
bq. 1.Pedroia has down syndrome
2. Home stats do not matter at all.
3. Being a “Natural matters”
4. Being tall matters
5. Having a sweeter swing matters.
There was an argument that Pedroia pulls the ball a lot so the wall should help him more.In his career, Pedroia has pulled the ball 43% of the time. The average major leaguer pulls the ball 41% of the time, Pedroia is not extremely pull happy. Cano pulls the ball 39% of the time.
What I learned:
The crux of your argument lies on a stat that factors in park effects. It factors this in by taking the 5 year team home/road splits. If you don’t see the problem with using an adjustment that is nothing but an average of an aggregate and applying it to two superstars who are obviously well above the aggregate average…then you’re obviously grossly dependent on advanced stats and have never had an original though in your life.
by Now Batting on Feb 16, 2012 5:34 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
It's true, he really hasn't.
I’ve questioned myself many times that, if a baseball hit him in the head, would bososx even know it, or think it was a tennis ball for advanced players.
I am Sandy's bitch
We Are Because You Were
@WadePSU
Hahahahaha
What I’ve learned is that clearly you’ve learned absolutely nothing from the actual rational arguments people have presented you with. You continue to ignore and not answer legitimate questions and points brought up, even in the things you actually link to and have instead focused on the things you’ve apparently “learned” here. All you’ve proven is that this entire thread was absolutely pointless because nothing anyone said was going to ever alter your views otherwise.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
ImNotAHRHitter
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Feb 16, 2012 5:47 PM EST up reply actions
I answered the pulling question
I thought that was interesting, just you cannot ignore half of a player’s career. Park factors use home and away stats while adjusting for park. You can even go further and adjust for handedness for park. Pedroia still comes on top.
No you didn't
Both Duggan’s & jscape’s primary questions still went unanswered and all you did was bring up points that at times neither of them even talked about. You continue bringing up points to me that shows you’re not even paying attention to the points I’m trying to make. You keep saying the home/away stats mean nothing when the person you linked to in that article even says they do if used intelligently, and especially logically in some extreme cases. Plus you still fail to grasp the point of what people, including myself, are trying to tell you. No matter what any of us said, you were going to continue to think Pedroia was better than Cano, so what was the point of this whole thing in the first place? You apparently already had all the stats you needed to show you that “Pedroia still comes on top” so there’s no argument to be had. By your own account, you proved your own point so there was no point in this thread.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
ImNotAHRHitter
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Feb 16, 2012 6:18 PM EST up reply actions
He's not looking for argument or debate, he's seeking ratification and coronation
Mostly I think he’s trying to be dense and annoying enough to get banned, so he can go back to OTM and claim to have “won.”
I answered Miguel Angel Barajas'
question. To Jscape’s about the 3 year averages, I answered something similar to Wraithpk. It is smarter to use all the years of a players data, weighted than 3 years. I don’t think it’s fair to pick all the years after Cano’s bad season. He made an excellent point that Cano’s stats should fluctuate more than Pedroia’s, therefore you have to include Cano’s bad season too. For the UZR stuff, the Yankees pitching staff actually allowed more balls in play, and UZR is adjusted for oppurtunites. For the positioning, that is a good point, which is limited by the data, but in this case, I don’t think it has much merit, in Francona’s Philly stint, neither Moriandi, Lewis, or Anderson had TZs much better than their career norms. Bellhorn wasn’t better in UZR either.
He had a very good argument, but it had some problems, he actually had a legitimate argument though
I bet.
I'm a bad example for the kids at home according to people on the Internet.
#JEDI4PSA
by Jedi Master A-Rod on Feb 16, 2012 6:41 PM EST up reply actions
I've answered a million questions about splits/park factors
but for the record, I don’t think it’s a good idea to throw out half the data. Pedroia pulls a little more than the average major leaguer, 2% more, you could knock him down for that, but it would only be like 1 wRC+. And no one has answered my question about Matt Holliday
You're. Still. Missing. The. Point.
Here, I’m just going to bold my own quote…
No matter what any of us said, you were going to continue to think Pedroia was better than Cano, so what was the point of this whole thing in the first place? You apparently already had all the stats you needed to show you that "Pedroia still comes on top" so there’s no argument to be had. By your own account, you proved your own point so there was no point in this thread.
You continue to bring up all these stats like an obsessed little socially inept Trekkie and are still missing the precise point of what people like Jscape, myself, and even Rogue Nine are trying to tell you. That there was no point in any of this. That coming over here and trying to convince Die Hard Yankees Fans that Pedroia is a better 2B than Cano when pretty much all the sensible fans agree that they are so close to even that it doesn’t matter and is ultimately pointless.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
ImNotAHRHitter
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Feb 16, 2012 7:01 PM EST up reply actions
I came over here because
I wanted to see a good argument for Cano, one that I haven’t seen before, and maybe can use in the future when evaluating players, and jscape’s point about positioning was good, I still don’t think you should ignore UZR. You told me to answer jscape’s argument, I did and you said you’re still missing the point
No you didn't
You came over here because you wanted to show that Pedroia was better than Cano, usually all kinds of stats that you clearly could’ve found out on your own. What argument for Cano is actually needed? Hell, what argument for Pedroia is needed? Just about every here already agrees that the two are probably the best two 2B in the AL, if not the majors. I didn’t tell you to answer their arguments, I just said you didn’t. If you were trying to have a discussion, I shouldn’t have to tell you to answer them anyway. The whole reason I mentioned that you weren’t answer Jscape or Duggan’s main points is because they continued to bring up legitimate facts, stats, and factors that you either ignored or just outright dismissed, claiming they said things when they didn’t.
And you were still missing the point, and probably still are.
The point that people here have been trying to make, even your fellow member of OTM who you called an insane pessimist, is that there is little to no point to this at all. You’re inviting trouble with this. It’s why you’re being called a “troll” and like Jscape, I don’t think you are one, but rather that you just don’t understand why what you’re doing is pointless.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
ImNotAHRHitter
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Feb 16, 2012 7:55 PM EST up reply actions
What I learned in this thread
1. You are interested in debating this topic only so long as the questions are framed exactly the way that you choose to frame them; all other sources/statistics/viewpoints are invalid
2. You have the usual troll appetite for straw man arguments
3. You persistently refuse to actually engage with people who seriously seek to discuss your arguments or premises with you (jscape, etc)
4. The only counter-arguments that you actually see being presented to you are the most unserious and mocking arguments, not the serious ones. Which you then stretch out to cover up all the serious arguments
… actually, I have learned some from this thread, though not from your posts. This doesn’t surprise me, because I’ve seen many internet trolls of your type. It matters not to me whether you are wilfully blind or merely dense. I already know that you’re going to keep not-quite-answering questions or comments as long as you can until one of the mods finally bans you and flushes the thread – which is exactly what you want, so you can go bouncing back to OTM and say that you “won.” Which is kinda pathetic when you get right down to it, but I doubt you’ll be able to see that either.
banned?
what have I done that warrants being banned? I came with facts, and all people wanted to say was that Home numbers don’t matter at all, because I don’t agree with that warrants me getting banned? Come on, even one of your owners, Brandon C. said that he was surprised about the reaction this post received. And he said “I mean he uses stats and makes an actual argument, so he could at least get a fair rebuttal!”
Nobody said home numbers don't matter at all
But taken in context they speak volumes about these two specific players.
Also, why are you cherry picking quotes? There are 300 posts here. You can construct anything with that you loser.
by Now Batting on Feb 16, 2012 6:53 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Maybe you repeating bull s*** like "all you guys are saying is that home numbers don't matter" is why
people are calling you a troll and are bringing up the possibility of a ban.
Try not to twist things people are saying into straw-men like “home numbers don’t matter” and actually try to argue in a serious manner. Nobody is saying “home numbers don’t matter”, so why whine about people saying that? Try actually arguing against what they’re saying.
LETS GO BIG BLUE!!!
by mikefromnbny on Feb 16, 2012 6:59 PM EST up reply actions
basically
the premise of thinking that road numbers are better than park factors means that ignoring home numbers is better than adjusting them for park. A lot of Yankee fans in the thread are saying that home/road splits are better than park factors
Assuming that "a lot of Yankee fans in the thread are..." is true...
how did you turn that into “home numbers don’t matter”? That’s twisting of epic proportions I thought only politicians were capable of.
LETS GO BIG BLUE!!!
by mikefromnbny on Feb 16, 2012 7:04 PM EST up reply actions
because if you say road numbers are better than park adjusted numbers
that is basically saying that ignoring home numbers is better than adjusting them.
Maybe you should focus on what people are actually saying, not what you think they're "basically saying".
Nobody has said home numbers don’t matter. If you’d like to point out the person who said it, that would be good. I’m interested in what the original statement was before it was twisted.
LETS GO BIG BLUE!!!
by mikefromnbny on Feb 16, 2012 7:24 PM EST up reply actions
While you’re continuing on your campaign of trying to take everything and condense it into black and white because any and all nuance is completely lost on you, do remember that no one said this but you.
all people wanted to say was that Home numbers don’t matter at all
Numbers in a certain ballpark can be inflated by the park, but I don’t recall anyone saying that they “don’t matter at all.” Merely that the numbers that you’re citing, because clearly typing “Dustin Pedroia” into Fangraphs and then regurgitating is the only analytical power that you have, do not carry the end-all-be-all objective finality that you are trying to say that they do.
There is no way to make a true apples-to-apples comparison between to players on different teams, and acting like two points of wRC+ closes the case just illustrates that you don’t have the first clue how to effectively implement the statistic. Of course people are going to mock you when you’re over here trying to throw down about how much more super awesome your player is and have failed dismally to present any concise argument as to why there is a clear difference or to even demonstrate that you know what the hell you’re talking about.
Instead you just endlessly repeat simplistic drivel like “Yankees fans think _” and “Pedroia is ______.”
I think that it is not true to say
“There is no way to make a true apples-to-apples comparison between to players on different teams, " GMs do it all the time when signing players.
I’m sure they do it by saying “well, 126 wRC+ > 124 wRC+, and now that we’ve settled that, let’s go to the golf course.”
by Lord Duggan on Feb 16, 2012 7:16 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Taking in all relevant data and including a reasonable level of uncertainty in the comparison. There are any number of attributes that can be compared: age, discipline, speed, contact ability, power, untapped potential, etc. that all combine to give you a much more complete picture of the profile of a hitter. Also, you have to take into account the fact that their production was not created in a vacuum, which means that team, league, competition, and yes, home ballpark, can influence them.
I’ve been a huge proponent of sabermetrics since I started writing here, but sabermetrics is not about being slavish to certain numbers, but getting as close as you can to objective truth in analysis. Every way of comparison that I’ve just described can be supported by numbers, some more strongly than others, but if you think that two points of wRC+ over a cherry picked sample of years is definitive proof that one is better than the other, you’re completely doing it wrong.
And even then, unless you’re comparing Albert Pujols and Ramiro Pena, your answer will likely be in the form of “Player A is better at this, but Player B is better at this other thing.”
There are things that Robinson Cano does much better than Dustin Pedroia and vise versa, and the overall amount of offensive production that they provide is very comparable. Trying to say that one is objectively a better hitter than the other is by definition an oversimplification of a complicated comparison.
by Lord Duggan on Feb 16, 2012 7:46 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
yes I agreed they were equal hitters
and Pedroia is a better fielder. Oh, and the 2 point difference is not a cherrypicked sample of years, it’s all of the years
I’m glad that we rooted out the simplistic analysis and came to the unassailable, thorough, and nuanced conclusion of:
Cano’s offense = Pedroia’s offense
Cano’s defense < Pedroia’s defense
My work here is clearly done.
If I could share the scotch I'm drinking with you through the internets, I would.
You sound like you need it :P
LETS GO BIG BLUE!!!
by mikefromnbny on Feb 16, 2012 8:21 PM EST up reply actions
Flaying the deceased equine
I didn’t say that you should be banned, although the increasingly pointless nature of this thread is going to put it in danger of being flushed. What I suspect is that you’re just going to keep right on not-quite-answering questions or comments for as long as it takes until that happens, on whatever grounds, because a person who is more interested in anointing himself or herself with the mantle of “win.”
Let’s try this: they are both very good to great players, both teams are fortunate to have them, they’d start for virtually every other team in MLB. They are close enough in value so that, if you polled MLB GMs on which they would prefer, you would not get a unanimous result. And it’s not that one group of GMs or the other is WRONG WRONG WRONG, it’s because the way each player fits into the team’s needs is going to be different, and the way each team projects each player’s future performance is likely to be different.
So there’s not going to BE a definitive “right” answer to the question “who’s better?” And that’s OK. In 2003, had this site existed, you probably would have come over and argued “Nomar’s better.” And there would have been an argument. Now there is no argument: Jeter is better, and he’s the one going to the HOF. We can argue about Cano and Pedroia ten years from now. In the meantime, for the love of God, just stop.
by d_c_guy on Feb 17, 2012 12:30 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Actually
Since Nomah’s wRC+ is 125 while Jeter’s is 124, and since UZR thinks Jeter has been worth -48.9 runs while Nomah was only -22.
So, based on my analysis, Garciaparra should go to the Hall of Fame while Jeter sits on the steps and cries.
by jscape2000 on Feb 17, 2012 12:39 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
x
"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth
by Andrew GM on Feb 17, 2012 2:01 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You’re not supposed to use those like that
The general attitude of the preceding comment is frowned upon by upper management.
#JEDI4PSA
by Jedi Master A-Rod on Feb 17, 2012 8:02 PM EST up reply actions
Fuck Boston!
That is all.
"There is no room in baseball for discrimination. It is our national pastime and a game for all." - Henry Louis "Lou" Gehrig
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