Barry Larkin Elected To Baseball Hall Of Fame; Don Mattingly, Bernie Williams Fall Way Short
by Brandon C. on Jan 9, 2012 3:21 PM EST
in New York Yankees News
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PrintCongratulations to Barry Larkin, the newest member of the Baseball Hall of Fame! Larkin was voted in on his third year on the ballot, amassing 86.4% to get in.
Courtesy of BBWAA:
Larkin, who was in his third year of eligibility, received 495 votes, for an 86.4-percent plurality. His vote total reflected a 24.3-percent gain from the 2011 ballot, the largest jump in one year to gain election since 1948 when pitcher Herb Pennock received 77.7 percent of the vote after having tallied 53.4 percent in 1947. Larkin’s jump is the largest for any Hall of Fame election in which at least 400 ballots were cast. The previous highest was the 16.4-percent jump by first baseman Tony Perez from 1999 (60.8) to 2000 (77.2).
As for notable former Yankees, Bernie Williams will stay on the ballot with 9.6%, while Don Mattingly totaled 17.8%.
Follow me after the jump for the entire voting results.
Name Votes Yrs on
ballotBarry Larkin 495 (86.4%) 3 Jack Morris 382 (66.7%) 13 Jeff Bagwell 321 (56.0%) 2 Lee Smith 290 (50.6%) 10 Tim Raines 279 (48.7%) 5 Alan Trammell 211 (36.8%) 11 Edgar Martinez 209 (36.5%) 3 Fred McGriff 137 (23.9%) 3 Larry Walker 131 (22.9%) 2 Mark McGwire 112 (19.5%) 6 Don Mattingly 102 (17.8%) 12 Dale Murphy 83 (14.5%) 14 Rafael Palmeiro 72 (12.6%) 2 Bernie Williams 55 (9.6%) 1 Juan Gonzalez 23 (4.0%) 2 Vinny Castilla 6 (1.0%) 1 Tim Salmon 5 (0.9%) 1 Bill Mueller 4 (0.7%) 1 Brad Radke 2 (0.3%) 1 Javy Lopez 1 (0.2%) 1 Eric Young 1 (0.2%) 1 Jeromy Burnitz 0 (0%) 1 Brian Jordan 0 (0%) 1 Terry Mulholland 0 (0%) 1 Phil Nevin 0 (0%) 1 Ruben Sierra 0 (0%) 1 Tony Womack 0 (0%) 1
There you have it, folks. Thoughts?
Also, I will have a Jorge Posada retirement post up soon, and what do you think of possibly putting together a Yankees Hall of Fame here on the site? Coming up with a pool of players, voting on each once and seeing who gets in? Comment away!
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Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
"Every day is a great day for hockey."
Compare them
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/mattido01.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/larkiba01.shtml
Mattingly has better numbers. Add in that Mattingly is the all time leader in fldg. pct for AL 1st basemen (barely behind Hernandez all time), holds the records for HR’s in 8 consecutive games (10 total) and grand slams in a season, and won a MVP.
Romine!
I don’t agree that he has better #’s necessarily. Larkin has better OBP, a lot higher WAR, more hits, runs
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
"Every day is a great day for hockey."
Mattingly is also a 1B, a more offensive expectant position
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
"Every day is a great day for hockey."
it’s true…offense from a SS is much more valuable than offense from a 1B
"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth
That’s not a good reasoning why Mattingly should be. Of those three, Beckley is actually deserving.
"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth
“Blah is in the Hall of Fame so because Whosits is better than Blah, Whosits should also be in”
This argument doesn’t even call into consideration whether Blah is a Hall of Famer. If Blah shouldn’t even be a Hall of Famer and we’re upset about it, why should we continue to let in candidates who only seem to be better than Blah?
"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth
This doesn't make sense
Your argument could work both ways with that kind of logic anyway. There has to be a standard, some sort of comparison made to judge whether or not someone is deemed deserving. Compare Larkin to the other SS’s while you’re at it. There are much, much better. Some are not.
Romine!
I think the problem
is that the BBWAA doesn’t apply a standard universally. They use some arguments to disqualify people while using the same arguments to elect people.
Basically, I think players should be compared to their peers (from the era in which they played), not to those already in the Hall of Fame. That being said, Mattingly’s career was shortened and that probably influences his chances in a negative manner.
We’ll break this down into simple comps.
Barry Larkin is the 12th best SS of all time by fWAR.
Barry Larkin is the 21st best SS of all time by wOBA.
Barry Larkin is the 10th best SS of all time by wRC+.
Don Mattingly is the 51st best 1B of all time by fWAR.
Don Mattingly is the 131st best 1B of all time by wOBA.
Don Mattingly is the 76th best 1B of all time by wRC+.
Huge difference.
"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth
by Andrew GM on Jan 9, 2012 7:56 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Tony Womack got robbed
I'll do whatever it takes to win games, whether it's sitting on a bench waving a towel, handing a cup of water to a teammate, or hitting the game-winning shot.- Kobe Bryant
A.J. Burnett's only fan!
THIS
Old Hoss Radbourn @OldHossRadbourn
No matter what one thinks of J. Morris, or anyone on the ballot for a while, jerking them around for a decade plus seems foolish and cruel
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
"Every day is a great day for hockey."
Don’t understand the changing of votes when nothing changes.
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
"Every day is a great day for hockey."
Some things change. New players join the ballot. New and old players make the Hall. Of course those two reasons mostly apply to people voting for 10 players every year. Dale Murphy might have been my hypothetical #10 player on the ballot this year. Next year, I may not (hypothetically) vote for him at all because 3 or 4 better players have been added to the ballot (Bonds, Clemens, Biggio, Piazza).
New voters join the ranks. Old ones die off.
And ultimately, the scope of knowledge and understanding does actually change. It may be at a glacial pace, but it does change.
New players join the ballot. New and old players make the Hall.
Could you go into a little more detail about how this affects someone voting for Jack Morris, for example?
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
"Every day is a great day for hockey."
Same way it effects Dale Murphy in my original example
Say you vote for 10 guys. Say Jack Morris your #11 guy last year. Blyleven went into the Hall. None of the new guys are better. You now vote for Morris. Next year, maybe you won’t vote for Morris but you will vote for Biggio/Piazza/Clemens/Bonds, because they’re all better than Morris.
It’s not a great line of thinking, but I’m sure some voters vote for the best 10 of any given year. Voters vote for all kinds of stupid things, and there are all kinds of semi-logical rationalizations you can make for it.
Ultimately, my point was that there are some halfway sound reasons for fluctuating vote numbers, besides “well now that guy passes the gut test”.
It’s not a great line of thinking, but I’m sure some voters vote for the best 10 of any given year. Voters vote for all kinds of stupid things, and there are all kinds of semi-logical rationalizations you can make for it.
Heh, yeah agreed with this.
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
"Every day is a great day for hockey."
Congrats to Larkin, well deserved
I don’t understand why Jack Morris keeps inching up every year. I know he pitched one of the best big games of all time, but the guy pitched in a pitcher-friendly era and had a career ERA and FIP close to 4.00 and his overall postseason numbers are good, not great.
by Let's Talk About Tex Baby on Jan 9, 2012 3:40 PM EST reply actions
I completely agree. I can’t say I looked into his stats much, but from what I did see he does not look like a Hall of Famer.
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
"Every day is a great day for hockey."
some of those votes are disgusting
Six people voted for Vinny Castilla? Five for Tim Salmon? Four for Bill Mueller? Brad Radke, Eric Young and Javy Lopez got votes? Those guys had decent careers, but if you think they deserve to be in the Hall of Fame you know zero about baseball. And if you voted for them because they’re good guys, you don’t understand the rules and don’t deserve a ballot.
by long time listener on Jan 9, 2012 3:42 PM EST reply actions
Pedro Gomez admitted voting for Mueller, I know.
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
"Every day is a great day for hockey."
The longer the Hall of Fame keeps out Bagwell & Raines, the more my heart hurts. Trammell, Edgar, and probably Walker should be in too.
No Morris, please… Hope the gaudy Class of ‘13 & ’14 can keep Morris out. Nothing personal against the guy but people are letting the ’91 WS Game 7 performance manipulate their memories of Morris. I wasn’t around when he played but most baseball fans I’ve talked to were not that impressed with him. Going to one of the most basic stats, his completely league-average ERA should tell people this but whatever.
And yes on a Yankees Hall of Fame on this website!
"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth
You like the idea?
I think it could work, maybe one post get a pool of players, then every day have a poll of if a player should get in or something. I’ll take suggestions on format.
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
"Every day is a great day for hockey."
The question is what kind of Hall of Fame do you want it to be? The best of the best, like retired numbers? Or a more inclusive Hall like Monument Park and its many plaques? We could also just do a series of posts like Top 50 Yankees of all time.
"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth
Not retired #, as that would lead to too many numbers gone. Either a simple Yankees HOF like the real HOF, or something similar. Top 50 would be extremely difficult to get done
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
"Every day is a great day for hockey."
Could just do a post where people can nominate players for the Yankees Hall of Fame, then maybe a series of posts where their argument is given and a poll determines Yes/No. You could even distinguish like 90%+ of the vote is Tier 1, 80-90% is Tier 2, and 67-80% is Tier 3. You would need over 2/3 of the poll to get in.
"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth
That’s what my idea is, essentially. Just have to figure out the % you need to get in.
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
"Every day is a great day for hockey."
“Two out of Three ain’t Bad”
"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth
I wonder how the voting would go, though. I fear everyone would just get in out of sheer popularity.
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
"Every day is a great day for hockey."
Hmmmm
http://mlb.sbnation.com/2012/1/9/2693010/the-hall-of-fame-an-immodest-proposal
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
"Every day is a great day for hockey."
I like the idea of a recall vote
Especially when you have a guy like Bagwell who has NO evidence that he used roids. I also agree with one of the posters over there that there has to be some mechanism in place to keep a writer with a grudge from trying to have the guy recalled every year. So with the recall, if it comes to light 10 years from now that Bagwell was using roids, HGH, etc., he can be removed. Personally, I think Bagwell is a HOFer and deserves to be in.
Who wants to do some work for me! Here’s the best part….you won’t get paid!
Simple, really, want someone to compare Mussina, Pettitte, and Morris’ stats. Working on too many posts right now to go indepth with the research.
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
"Every day is a great day for hockey."
Done- Guess what the 1-2-3 order is in both playoffs & reg. season?
Regular Season
Mussina: 18 yrs, 2813 K, 7.11 K/9, 3.58 K/BB, 1.98 BB/9 (!), 3.68 ERA, 123 ERA+, 3.57 FIP, 74.8 rWAR, 85.6 fWAR (!)
Pettitte: 16 yrs, 2251 K, 6.63 K/9, 2.34 K/BB, 2.83 BB/9, 3.88 ERA, 117 ERA+, 3.75 FIP, 49.9 rWAR, 67.0 fWAR
Morris: 18 yrs, 2478 K, 5.83 K/9, 1.78 K/BB, 3.27 BB/9, 3.90 ERA, 105 ERA+, 3.94 FIP, 39.3 rWAR, 56.9 fWAR
Post-Season
Mussina: 139.2 IP, 145 K, 9.34 K/9, 4.39 K/BB, 2.13 BB/9, 3.42 ERA, 3.54 FIP
Pettitte: 263.0 IP, 173 K, 5.92 K/9, 2.40 K/BB, 2.46 BB/9, 3.83 ERA, 4.17 FIP
Morris: 92.1 IP, 64 K, 6.24 K/9, 2.00 K/BB, 3.12 BB/9, 3.80 ERA, 3.74 FIP
"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth
Exactly my point. Both Mussina and Pettitte should get in over Morris. I’ll probably write about that eventually and give you full credit for finding the stats.
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
"Every day is a great day for hockey."
or you could ban him and delete all his comments, then take credit for all his work
by long time listener on Jan 9, 2012 5:12 PM EST up reply actions
Which do you recommend?
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
"Every day is a great day for hockey."
Are you his conscience?
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 9, 2012 5:25 PM EST up reply actions
I'm the devil on the other shoulder
by long time listener on Jan 9, 2012 5:46 PM EST up reply actions
Who's the angel?
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 9, 2012 5:49 PM EST up reply actions
My conscience says ban everyone rename the site Barnstripe Alley and make the slogan “where skittles and baseball combine to form perfection.”
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
"Every day is a great day for hockey."
You know what's funny?
Mussina has better postseason numbers than Andy in every single category, but it’s Andy Pettitte who’s remembered as being a huge, big game postseason pitcher who always steps up. Never hear Mussina mentioned in the same light.
I’m not trying to bash Andy, but it’s remarkable how much perception and numbers don’t line up.
I'll do whatever it takes to win games, whether it's sitting on a bench waving a towel, handing a cup of water to a teammate, or hitting the game-winning shot.- Kobe Bryant
A.J. Burnett's only fan!
it's amazing what being on 5 WS-winning teams will do for one's reputation
by long time listener on Jan 9, 2012 10:09 PM EST up reply actions
That's the key
If the Yanks won in ‘03, I think Moose’s rep would be a lot better.
That being said, I think he deserves to get in the HOF one day. Winning 270 games playing the AL East for his WHOLE career is quite an accomplishment. If he played in the AL Central or NL West, he’d probably have won 300 games.
It's pretty sad that these writers decide things in this manner
when they are complicit in the whole steroid era themselves (maybe not all of them, but very few if any investigative stories were done prior to the Mitchell Report).
In my humble opinion, the following from the list should have been elected (in addition to Larkin): Jeff Bagwell, Jack Morris, Lee Smith, Tim Raines, Alan Trammell, Mark McGwire, and Raphael Palmeiro (yes, yes, steroids admissions and failed tests and all).
Fortunately, all those who only got one vote will not remain on the ballot, unless I’m mistaken on the rules?
by phonty on Jan 9, 2012 4:04 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
What’s your argument on Morris & Smith?
"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth
Actually
on those two, based on further research, I don’t think they belong in the HoF at all (and oddly, Morris has been getting more votes as the years go on).
In no way should Jack Morris be a HOFer
Just based on the numbers. The guy was a VERY good pitcher, but to say he is a HOFer is just wrong, IMO. Mike Mussina is statistically the superior pitcher (.638 WP% to Morris’s .577). I think with Maddux, Glavine and Schilling coming on to the ballot, this was Morris’ best shot and he didn’t make it. I don’t see him getting voted in within the next 2 years.
Juan Gone
…ha.
"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth
by Andrew GM on Jan 9, 2012 4:06 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
THIS!
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 9, 2012 10:46 PM EST up reply actions
How do the stats of ...
Larkin and Bernie compare? However you wish to classify it, Bernie’s post season records deserve serious consideration in the voting, in my opinion. Do you penalize him simply because he played on some great teams? Perhaps they were great teams because he was there? Oh well. Unfortunately, Donnie Baseball falls a season or two short, dammit.
Bernie gets a plus for being a major cog on Yankee championship teams but deserves
a big minus for his poor CF play.
I think this is just becoming farcical
I can’t wait for Bonds to get on and see what happens to him. I can see Cooperstown stripping the BBWAA of who gets in or drastically re-writing the voting rules
The artful muppet formerly known as KrmtDfrog.
Please read my sardonic wit and over-blown sense of self over at headkicklegend.com
Doubt it
The President of the Hall was on MLBN and he reaffirmed the Hall’s respect of the BBWAA.
"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth
quite honestly
the BBWAA is hurting their bottom line by keeping people out, especially those that warrant being in. Less people that go is less $, the more people that feel it’s a joke just feeds more into that.
The artful muppet formerly known as KrmtDfrog.
Please read my sardonic wit and over-blown sense of self over at headkicklegend.com
by Cory Braiterman on Jan 9, 2012 8:29 PM EST up reply actions
But there is a group of people,
a very large group, out there who will be turned off by a bunch of roiders being inducted. Less will visit a place that is a joke in their minds, too. There is probably more money lost this way than the other.
Romine!
Generation 2012+
I see their attendance tanking anyway. I really don’t think the generation raised by the “planking” generation will care about the HoF at all.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 9, 2012 10:57 PM EST up reply actions
congrats to Larkin
I used to want to love Donnie, until he decided to get up and walk to the other end of the bench, showing such class.
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