Jorge Posada and The Hall of Fame
As great baseball players decide to hang up their cleats for the last time, an inevitable amount of buzz seemingly takes over every corner of the sports writing world. Unless they are an absolute slam-dunk for induction, an endless back and forth begins about whether or not the player is Hall of Fame worthy, or simply belongs in the Hall of Very Good. Will they get in, or do they have one too many proverbial skeletons in their baseball closet that will keep them out? Jorge Posada is the latest subject of the Potential Hall of Famer buzz, and for those who watched him become and remain an offensive force for the Yankees, it's easy to see why he deserves the consideration.
In 17 seasons for the Yankees, Posada managed to more than make up for his below average catching skills by having an undeniably dangerous bat. Posada's offensive prowess made him one of the mainstays throughout the most recent period of extreme Yankee success, including 3 World Series titles in a row and 5 in total, with him behind the plate for the majority of them. Some legacies are difficult to predict, though. Will the population as a whole remember Jorge Posada as a popular, middle of the order bat for a baseball dynasty, or a defensive liability whose career as a catcher was only saved by offense?
Because the BBWAA certainly votes for its inductees differently than I would, and probably differently than most of us would if it were left up to us individually, the best way I know of to read into their collective thought process is to see how a player matches up to the career numbers of players who they have already decided were worthy of induction. There are currently 16 catchers in the Hall of Fame, making it the position with the 2nd fewest inductees to date. To put Posada's numbers into perspective, here are his career statistics ranked among the 13 catchers already voted in by the BBWAA or the Veteran's Committee*.


Stats via Fangraphs, B-Ref, and MLB.com
*Note: Josh Gibson, Louis Santop, and Biz Mackey were voted into the HOF by Negro League committees, and unfortunately their complete career numbers are harder to find. For the sake of the chart, they were not included.
Based on these numbers, Posada certainly has an argument for being Hall of Fame worthy by matching up well with catchers who have already been inducted. He outranks Ray Schalk in all offensive categories, and outranks popular names such as Gary Carter and Carlton Fisk in every offensive category except WAR and home runs. His defense is a much different story, however. By defensive WAR standards, Posada would be the worst catcher to be inducted into the Hall of Fame thus far.
In addition to the impressive offensive rankings above, simple counting numbers are very kind to Jorge's quest for Hall of Fame induction. He ranks within the top 10 of catchers since 1901 in walks, doubles, OPS, OBP, and home runs, and is 24th in games caught. Those are very impressive credentials, and will go a long way toward impressing the voters of the BBWAA. Posada didn't manage to reach any of the nice round numbers people like to point to as shoo-in status for the Hall, such as 3,000 hits, but his production from a position not known for its offense has to be considered among the best to have played there.
Based on the voting process as we know it, one of the stronger arguments for Posada's inclusion in the HOF is that Jorge was never linked to steroids, despite playing at a high level during the Steroid Era, therefore his strong numbers have even more reason to stand out to a committee that has thus far taken an avid No Steroids No How stance. If you believe in the importance of things like intangibles, being a good leader, and knowing how to handle a pitching staff, as the people who vote for the Hall of Fame seem to, those characteristics will only stand to strengthen the argument for why Jorge should get in to the Hall.
The case against Posada making the Hall of Fame isn't terribly difficult to argue. Jorge Posada certainly wasn't the best player at his position, nor was he the best player on his team. The highest he managed to finish in MVP voting was 3rd in 2003, and he finished in the top 10 of voting only twice. Being seen as synonymous with the Core Four label placed upon Andy Pettitte, Derek Jeter, Mariano Rivera, and himself may do some good for Jorge's chances, but critics may argue that throughout his career, he played 2nd fiddle to Jeter and Rivera's lead. I don't think it's necessarily unfair to say that Posada's star didn't shine quite as brightly as his teammates' may have, but discrediting his importance to the Yankees for years because of that would be.
An amazing amount of ink has been spilled over Posada's defense, or lack there of. As more statistics that measure defense are created, the less kind they seem to be to Jorge. In fact, people like Mike Fast at Baseball Prospectus have poured over the numbers and found Posada to be one of the worst catchers at framing pitches, and thus, costing the pitcher a strike. Posada led the league twice in passed balls and errors, and once in stolen bases allowed, which will no doubt take a little something away from his impressive career as a hitter. Currently, only three catchers in the Hall of Fame rank negatively in terms of defensive WAR, and of those, only Ernie Lombardi is really within shouting distance of Posada's -2.9 career rating.
Popular opinion so far seems to be that Posada is a borderline Hall of Famer with a good chance of actually bridging the gap and being inducted. It's impossible to say with any certainty, as so many things can change in the evaluation process from the time a player retires until he becomes eligible for the HOF ballot. I don't think Jorge Posada will get the votes necessary to be inducted within the first couple years of his eligibility, but I do believe that he will eventually get in based on the merits of his offense and having the good fortune of being surrounded by both great players and great teams for the entirety of his career.
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Very nice article
Yeah, it’s a gamble on whether or not he’ll get in or not. You’re correct in that being measured along with Jeter & Mo, two guaranteed HOFers, could hamper him in the short term.
Of course, Mo’s not retiring anytime soon. Or ever, for that matter!
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 29, 2012 1:59 PM EST reply actions
Jorge wasn't behind the plate for all 5
by Now Batting on Jan 29, 2012 2:08 PM EST via mobile reply actions
That’s not what I was trying to say, but I’ve clarified it now.
Jesus Montero fangirl
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Jan 29, 2012 2:12 PM EST up reply actions
Ya I know just pointing out an error
I put Jorge’s chances at 50/50. Reading this in context makes me his chances are well above 80%.
by Now Batting on Jan 29, 2012 2:16 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Considering
the other two “great” catchers during his era (Pudge, Piazza) have been linked to PEDs (and there hasn’t even been a whiff re: Posada), his numbers look better since he had to compete against them, and BBWAA voters might take that into account.
Yeah, they'll probably take that into account as well
No matter how bad his defense is. Although, Piazza’s defense wasn’t too great either.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 29, 2012 2:18 PM EST up reply actions
They do love that sort of thing, so I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see it weigh heavily on their decision.
Jesus Montero fangirl
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Jan 29, 2012 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
Implicated=?????
No positive tests, no evidence that could be used in a court of law.
by Iggy Poptart on Jan 30, 2012 6:19 PM EST up reply actions
Jeff Bagwell would like to remind you that that doesn’t seem to matter for this.
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Jan 30, 2012 6:21 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t remember any talk of Pudge being linked to PEDs
by MichaelGGBGrabow on Feb 1, 2012 11:01 AM EST up reply actions
Mitchell Report
http://www.baseballssteroidera.com/bse-all-performance-enhancing-drugs-list-baseball.html
“Implicated by Others”, for what that’s worth.
One could just look at the change in his body as soon as the steroid news broke..he shrank.
Romine!
Hmm, thanks.
Haha Rickey Bones, I met him and Wally Backman in a Holiday Inn elevator across from Citi Field last year. Backman was trashed and tried to use his key to get into my room.
by MichaelGGBGrabow on Feb 1, 2012 11:12 AM EST up reply actions
Crude Tid Bit
This thought popped into my head the other day. Has any player for the past 20 (30?) years handled the baseball more in the playoffs than Posada?
(I’m in the “will be disgusted with the sport if Posada is not a first ballot HOF” camp.)
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 29, 2012 2:28 PM EST reply actions
Pudge maybe.
Has anyone ever cared enough to calculate net change in ERA from pre-Pudge to Pudge pitchers?
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 29, 2012 3:55 PM EST up reply actions
Actually
it seems his catching ERA is actually higher than the league average during his career.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/rodriiv01-field.shtml?mobile=false#advanced_fielding_c::none
(but… he did spend a lot of time in a hitter’s ballpark.)
by Travis G on Jan 29, 2012 4:49 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
He was one of, if not the best ever at throwing runners out. He was also okay at blocking pitches in the dirt. As I remember, he was always dissed for his handling of pitching staffs and game calling.
Romine!
He was.
This is why I ask if a study has ever been done, because intuition told me that he had a great effect on the young arms in Detroit and Florida.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 30, 2012 12:29 AM EST up reply actions
This is why I say pre-Pudge pitchers and Pudge pitchers. Meaning “Marlins pitchers before Pudge” vs “Marlins pitchers with Pudge”, rather than vs league avg.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 30, 2012 12:30 AM EST up reply actions
Something tells me you're getting this writers job
Don’t ban me!
Quick question though- how do you manage to put the charts together like you do? Because when I try to write stuff I have no idea how to do it. Is this particular one just something you found online or is it something you made yourself? Because if you made it yourself I kind of want to know how.
Nice writeup and Rec’d. Posada has a good chance I think to get in at some point. At the very least, I think he deserves his own plaque in Monument Park.
"I could never wear another uniform. I will always be a Yankee"- Jorge Posada
Thanks for the memories Jorge
Sarcasm font.
How?
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 29, 2012 2:30 PM EST up reply actions
Haha, no I did them myself. The graphs from my Poll fanpost and these charts were all created with Google Docs.
Jesus Montero fangirl
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Jan 29, 2012 2:31 PM EST up reply actions
Would the Yankees have been
the playoff machine they were without Posada? The lineup sure would have been different without Jorge in the 5 and 6 holes all those years. Secondly, does anyone know how he ranks among switch hitters? I would think it’s got to be pretty high, especially for his position.
HIP HIP
in other news, anyone else meet joba and hakeem nicks today?
Boone Logan is a good boy. So is David Robertson. Team A.J.
He'd be the worst defensive catcher in the HoF
But he had longevity and a strong bat, two things that catchers typically lack. I wouldn’t be surprised either way.
I know where I come from, and when you always have in mind where you come from the rest will be easy. I think the rest will be easy.
-- M. Rivera
Not the worst defensive catcher
Because Mike Piazza will get in first, and because plenty of guys divided their time between C and another position.
He also was blessed...
To be on a winning team for his entire career… world series many times and being on a team rich in traditions doesnt hurt either
"Performance comes from work and dedication, belief and strength. Words and excuses get you nowhere." -Jason Heyward, Atlanta Braves Rightfielder
Another fine write up by WWJD
I was wondering when we would get a decent write up on Jorge, this went above and beyond in my opinion. As I mentioned earlier in the week, I think Jorge’s great relationship with the media will only help his cause with getting into the Hall.
Jorge will never be confused with Johnny Bench behind the plate but his skills were adequate enough. I also cant believe Gary Carter is nearly twice the defensive catcher that Johnny Bench was. That dWAR stat needs to be defined a bit better in my opinion.
Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.
Carter was not half the defensive catcher Bench was. Too bad probably everybody here never even got to see him play. Bench was awesome and owned the plate while catching, Munson was the same way. They “commanded” the field.
Romine!
I saw Carter play and he was very good
Ive only seen Bench in classic games after he retired. But I have always heard and read that he was the best and here he ranks way below Carter. I know that C sabermetrics arent perfected yet but this isnt even close to what Ive always been told abbout Bench.
Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.
Bench.....
……was a great one. He had everything a catcher needs.
I never thought Posada was a HOF player, just a very good player and a Yankee great. After seeing the numbers above I may be changing my tune. Jorge ranks right up there in all the offensive categories.
4th or 5th ballot inductee perhaps? No way he goes straight in, but he stands a good chance long-term as people assess his numbers in the same way the writer has above.
Great article
Something to consider: Jorge was a great hitting catcher at a time when eye popping numbers were easy to come by. Fisk, Bench, and Carter played in a era when hr’s were were harder to come by. Don’t know if that will directly enter into hof voters’ thinking, but indirectly it probably already has and will continue to shape his rep. I wouldn’t vote for him, but he wouldn’t be the worst player in there.
You never know what your history is going to be like until long after you're gone.
about jorges defense....
sometrhing to consider, and i am not a statistics kinda guy, but how many no hitters / perfect games did he catch as opposed to the other hall of fame catchers??
I will look that up and get back to you.
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Jan 29, 2012 7:38 PM EST up reply actions
I know he caught Wells’!
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
that's the only one
Girardi caught Gooden’s no-hitter (don’t think Jorge was even on the roster) and Cone’s perfect game.
by long time listener on Jan 29, 2012 8:01 PM EST up reply actions
Think his binder is already there
Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.
I'm thinking of making a fanpost parody
Parodying Hendrix’ “Hey Joe” and talking about Girardi’s binder!
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 29, 2012 8:49 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, agreed
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 29, 2012 9:44 PM EST up reply actions
I'm pretty sure I already made a post concerning Girardi's binder
"I could never wear another uniform. I will always be a Yankee"- Jorge Posada
Thanks for the memories Jorge
by nyyrocks29 on Jan 29, 2012 10:23 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Did it Parody Jimi's 'Hey Joe'?
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 29, 2012 10:41 PM EST up reply actions
It did not
Fine. You got it.
"I could never wear another uniform. I will always be a Yankee"- Jorge Posada
Thanks for the memories Jorge
Damn right!
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 30, 2012 2:54 PM EST up reply actions
Bresnahan caught Christy Mathewson’s no hitter.
Schalk caught Eddie Cicotte’s no hitter and Charlie Robertson’s perfect game.
Ernie Lombardi caught 2 Johnny Vander Meer no hitters.
Berra caught 2 Allie Reynolds no hitters and Don Larsen’s perfect game.
Campanella caught 2 Carl Erskine no hitters, and a Sal Maglie no hitter.
Bench caught Jim Maloney’s no hitter.
Carter caught Charlie Lea’s no hitter.
Posada caught David Wells’ perfect game.
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Jan 29, 2012 8:04 PM EST up reply actions
Also, for what it's worth
Posada caught Mike Mussina’s near-perfecto in 2001, the one that Carl Everett broke up with two outs in the bottom of the ninth.
by brother_rat on Jan 30, 2012 12:06 AM EST up reply actions
Thanks for reliving the moment in detail!
"I could never wear another uniform. I will always be a Yankee"- Jorge Posada
Thanks for the memories Jorge
lol
"Performance comes from work and dedication, belief and strength. Words and excuses get you nowhere." -Jason Heyward, Atlanta Braves Rightfielder
I will never let go of my anger for Carl Everett.
by MichaelGGBGrabow on Feb 1, 2012 11:07 AM EST up reply actions
I’m hoping that if the world ends in his lifetime, it’s in the form of the reincarnation of dinosaurs.
by MichaelGGBGrabow on Feb 1, 2012 11:20 AM EST up reply actions
I love Jorge as much as the next guy...
but he is not a HOFer. You don’ compare him to other catchers, you compare him to other players. It doesnt matter that he was the (arguably) best catcher of his era; if this was the case, then the number of people in the HOF would be the same for each position and would basically be an era all star team
Disagree
You cannot ignore the fact that catcher is one of the most demanding positions to be played on the field. It takes a huge toll on the player’s body. The fact that there are so many fewer catchers in the HOF just highlights the difficulty of putting up impressive numbers while playing a position that weakens the legs and shortens the career.
Or would you rather the HOF be full of overweight first basemen whose only skill is swinging the bat?
This
Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.
More fat guys in the HOF!
You never know what your history is going to be like until long after you're gone.
It has absolutely got to be the most physically demanding postion in all of sports and that’s not even taking into consideration the mental side of it. It blows my mind thinking about how difficult catching must be.
by MichaelGGBGrabow on Feb 1, 2012 11:16 AM EST up reply actions
Johnny Epping Bench
was the best Catcher to ever play the game offensively and defensively hands down. I saw him many a times when spending summers in Ohio with my Nanna. But Posada gets in based on offense, based on longevity and based on 5 rings. You’re not going to keep some one out with 5 of those that started for his team a great portion of his playing time.
by bleedsyankeeblue on Jan 30, 2012 3:17 AM EST reply actions
No, sorry
Hall of Very Good. fWAR for the career avg is under 3. Had a productive career up until the very end and played for a long while, but not a HOF’er
The artful muppet formerly known as KrmtDfrog.
Please read my sardonic wit and over-blown sense of self over at headkicklegend.com
by Cory Braiterman on Jan 30, 2012 8:41 AM EST reply actions
I'm not quite ready for this argument yet
It’s been really fun watching Jorge be a part of this team for so many years. And all without batting gloves! [Note: I guess it’s safe to shake Jorge’s hand now … ]. Let the HoF voting sort itself out, I just want to appreciate what he has done rather than argue about what he hasn’t.
I’ll let those bad boys get a couple hundred more washes.
by MichaelGGBGrabow on Feb 1, 2012 11:18 AM EST up reply actions
Great work with the stats and the arguments...
but I just can’t bring myself to care about the Hall of Fame. I might visit Cooperstown someday to say I did, but my own recollection of great players formerly of the New York Yankees is more important to me than what a bunch of snobby writers choose based on ridiculous criteria and personal bias. My own bias suits me much better.
Nice article. Before I started reading it, my answer to the HOF question was 'no way.'
HOF voting is not SABR- based, or it least it has never been so far. I wouldn’t put too much reliance on stats like WAR, UZR, or the like, just because I suspect that the majority of voters still don’t either know what they are, or if they do, put any stock in them.
I also think the ’not the best player on his great team argument cuts both ways. There are plenty of complementary stars in the HOF. I mean you, Tony Perez and Dave Concepcion, as well as 1920s Yankees not named Ruth and Gehrig.
Finally, I don’t know too much about the older catchers who’ve been enshrined, but I do know that Ernie Lombardi got in almost entirely based upon his bat. Fortunately for Posada, his defense and atrocious baserunning are unlikely to count too heavily against him.
by designatedquitter on Jan 30, 2012 2:19 PM EST reply actions
Not sure how I feel about Jorge Posada as a HoFer
I’m a Yankee fan through and through and remember Jorge as a rookie. He’s had a terrific career for the Yankees and I certainly appreciate having him in pinstripes the entire time.
With that said… it’s certainly a nice discussion of his numbers amongst other Hall of Fame catchers. It’s impossible to deny at least a debate on his merits. But for some reason, when i think of Jorge, I just don’t exactly equate or think of him as one of the All-Time best catchers in baseball. Something about that line just doesn’t fit for some reason which I cannot seem to pinpoint. The stats are comparable and even better than a couple guys, but it just feels strange to think of him as that sort of elite player.
He is the very definition of borderline IMO. I’m just not sure that people outside of Yankee fans really view Jorge at that sort of level.
"Madison Square Garden is the ultimate basketball stage. That's where I belong. That's where I live. That's the home of the New York Knicks." - Amar'e Stoudemire
by Chris Child's Fist on Jan 30, 2012 3:03 PM EST reply actions
I feel the same way
This article is definitely the best case I’ve seen anyone make for Posada, but I agree, he spent most of his career as a very good player, not a great player, and he never “felt” like a hall of famer for whatever reason.
by Let's Talk About Tex Baby on Feb 1, 2012 1:05 AM EST up reply actions

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