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Around SBN: The Most Dangerous Division in Sports

Curb Your Enthusiasm

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Congrats to Manny Banuelos and Dellin Betances. With Jesus Montero off to greener pastures in the Pacific Northwest, the remaining Killer B's now shoulder the load of Yankees fans prospect hugging.

Fans aren't exactly alone either. Baseball America has the pair ranked #1 and #2 in the system (by default), John Sickels pegged them at #2 and #3 and both ranked inside the top 50 of MLB.com's top 100 prospects list (#13 for Banuelos and #41 for Betances in case you're link allergic).

The question is: why? It seems to be universally accepted that the B's are not only the top prospects in the Yankees system, but in all of baseball. So why are they so highly regarded?

In all honesty, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Perhaps some perspective is necessary to help put expectations in check.

Star-divide

Just for the sake of argument, former farmhands Arodys Vizcaino and Zach McAllister make a return visit. Why? Well, for one, because I can. But more importantly because Vizcaino was probably the best non-Montero prospect in the system before he was shipped out for Javy and Boone. With McAllister, it's mostly an excuse to get this in here.

And this:

Austin_kearns_new_york_yankees_v_tampa_bay_xteu9xdwb1ql_medium

Never forget.

I brought (blurry) graphs.

Resultsj_medium

Processd_medium

Stray thoughts:

- This is how hype trains get rolling. Talent combined with outstanding stuff completely rolling up on over-matched hitters. In Banuelos' and Betances' cases, you could probably overlook the walk numbers (especially Betances) because of dingers! strikeouts!

- It's incredible the Yankees didn't launch Nova into orbit with a line like that. Strikeouts? Nope. Inflated WHIP? Oof. FIP? The hell is that?

- Holy Phil Hughes

- Phelps only made 7 starts at the A+ level. Probably not fair to throw his numbers into the comparison, but what are you going to do? He's needed later.

- Arodys Vizcaino hates decimal points

These numbers are fun and all, but they aren't really the important part. This is just a baseline breakdown trying to pinpoint the genesis of a lot of the hype the recent pitching prospects have received. They can largely get by on pure stuff at this point, so a live armed thrower can put up eye catching numbers.

Going up a level? Well...

Resultsaa_medium

Processaa_medium

Oh. Well then...

Players get better a level up and suddenly a lot of the fishing that helped fuel the engine on the hype train disappears. It's almost like pure stuff isn't enough to get by at the higher levels.

Weird.

Anyway, for all the chatter about Banuelos and Betances as potential front of the rotation pitchers, the results aren't really there. In fact, the only ones who really did put up front end numbers were Hughes, McAllister and maybe Vizcaino or Phelps (Warren only pitched ~50 innings at Double-A, so SSS). Funny what having a vague idea of where the plate is will do to compliment quality stuff.

If it isn't obvious from the numbers, consistency is what has plagued both of the B's since they made the jump to Trenton. The strikeout(!) numbers are still there, but they would do well to bring a GPS with directions to the plate to the mound with them on most nights. Just as a qualifier, not all walks and perceived wildness are created equal (same kind of holds true for WHIP, which Ivan Nova can attest to).

Betances' problem is that he is still in large part a thrower, only made worse by mechanics that make him look like he's about to fall over when he releases the ball. A heavy fastball is still usually enough to blow by hitters at Double-A, but even they aren't going to swing at a pitch two feet off the plate, over their head or skipping at the plate. He does possess a good curveball, but without a consistent fastball to build off, it may largely go for naught as he advances.

Banuelos is a whole different case. It's strange to say considering his less than stellar BB/9 and WHIP, but the control seems to be there. What seems to give him trouble is too much control (if that makes any sense). He trusts his stuff, many times to a fault as he tries to get too cute around the plate and snipe for strikes instead of attacking hitters. It's good to see him trying to play corners because he's clearly capable of doing so, but there is a time and place for it. Not all umpires are going to call pitches on or near the black, so when that isn't working he needs to adjust. If he doesn't, we're going to see a lot of what we saw this year from him: 20 pitch innings, 5 inning starts and 120-130 IP seasons.

Sadly, all my excuse making doesn't change the numbers. Banuelos and Betances have definitely put up solid numbers and shown flashes of brilliance that every franchise in baseball would be happy to have, but front liner or ace? They're struggling to pitch as well as not only the guys who went before, but their current teammates who can't shake the label of "back of the rotation starter", so perhaps it's time to throw the brakes on our expectations.

We've been down this road before with Phil Hughes, who in all honesty was far, far beyond either of the B's at this point in their careers, and many people are ready to run him out of town or banish him to the pen. The far superior prospect is being bandied about in trades after two hellish seasons, so how will the fanbase react if Banuelos or Betances don't set the world ablaze immediately? Why are so many so high on them but are willing to throw Phelps or Warren in any given trade despite their results? Potential? The Killer B's gimmick is more fun? Strikeouts!?

Wet blanket treatment aside, there is a lot to like about both guys. The talent is there, and with the latest moves to shore up the rotation the Yankees may have bought their prized prospects more time to develop and hopefully harness their potential. With three locks (at least Nova should be) for the rotation and the Phelps-Warren duo poised to fill in if need be, it's no longer a borderline necessity that the B's be ready to rock by late 2012 or 2013.

It sucks being let down by lofty expectations, so just relax, be realistic based on the results and have fun watching them grow into quality pitchers. It makes watching performances like Nova's 2011 all the more enjoyable.

Also: come back Phil Hughes. We miss you.

Comment 21 comments  |  10 recs  | 

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Really good write up, nice job

I’m really not sure why some guys get hyped more than others. Perhaps the B’s have the better stuff but just need more development. As I’m sitting here watching Pettitte in game 5 of 96 WS on YES, I recall him not being as highly touted as Sterling Hitchcock, and we all know how that worked out.

With the way the Yankees are trying to trim payroll by 2014, I really don’t see many young pitchers being traded off unless we have a catastrophic injury.

Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.

by YankeesJets on Jan 27, 2012 6:03 PM EST reply actions  

I agree. I miss Phil Hughes as well.

Also, fantastic post but I really feel like I should post some kind of animated gif anyway!

"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"

by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 27, 2012 6:10 PM EST reply actions  

GIFs of fuzzy graphs!

sixseasonsandamovie
♬P-p-pocket full of Hawthrones.♪

by noonoo on Jan 27, 2012 9:25 PM EST up reply actions  

This is a great post.
I also agree. I love Phil Hughes and want him to get back to being himself.
Yes, he had almost a missed year, but I don’t understand everybody jumping all over him about it. He had a problem, and he had to get it figured out. After he did, he started to look like himself again sort of. Just give him some time to get back to being himself. He is a great pitcher, and still has the stuff to be a front of the rotation starter.
I mean, he won 18 games two years ago. Yes, he had a great offense at bat for him, but you just don’t get those wins without being able to pitch.

by NJGuy on Jan 27, 2012 6:34 PM EST reply actions  

Thank you. This needed to be said.

There is a big difference between media hype and actual abilities. I think one of the reasons Banuelos is such a hot item is because he throws with the wrong arm. It doesn’t matter if he has an inflated BB% or that he can’t make it out of the 5th inning. He’s a lefty so he’s an Ace™ ©. Meanwhile guys like Phelps and Warren are pushed to the side because they don’t have the sexy K/9 despite being much more polished.

It doesn’t matter anyway. Phelps and Warren will be Seattle Mariners this time next year. Solid major league starters? Hell no. Give us high risk explosive asteroids that need tommy john surgery and might be amazing or will more likely blow up in our face with ERA shrapnel. Sorry, for now i’ll be playing the role of the skeptic.

by jetanumba2 on Jan 27, 2012 7:22 PM EST reply actions  

Why would Phelps and Warren be M's next year?

Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.

by YankeesJets on Jan 27, 2012 9:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Isn't it obvious?

Felix

GIANTS! 2011 NFC East Champs!

by Charles L on Jan 28, 2012 3:03 AM EST up reply actions  

If thats what they get in return for those two, I cant see how anyone would be upset besides Ms fans

Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.

by YankeesJets on Jan 28, 2012 4:05 AM EST up reply actions  

I think he was being sarcastic with that comment

Nobody in their right mind can expect Felix for Phelps and Warren unless drugs are placed in the GMs office right before he looks at the offer.

"I could never wear another uniform. I will always be a Yankee"- Jorge Posada

Thanks for the memories Jorge

by nyyrocks29 on Jan 28, 2012 9:58 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions  

I know but its like because one homegrown talent got traded now the entire farm is expected to be dumped

Yanks arent just making trades to make trades, they are trying to improve the team.

Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.

by YankeesJets on Jan 28, 2012 12:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Rec’d.

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." --Rogers Hornsby

by Chris McKeown on Jan 27, 2012 7:41 PM EST reply actions  

this argument applies to every team and their prospects

not just the yankees, and the stats can be said about so many players, Phil Hughes minor league stats are better than essentially every young top of the rotation starter in the mlb today, but it hasn’t translated. Vizqaino, was traded because the team felt they had a southpaw version in Banuelos, and considering the Braves doubt that his shoulder can hold up to a starters workload, he’s being converted into a reliever.

by Yankees199 on Jan 27, 2012 9:06 PM EST reply actions  

Very good post

We all wish Hughes lived up to the lofty expectations of early ’07. He was just ridiculous in ’06 at 20 in AA. But I really think the injury he suffered on that muggy night in Texas derailed (at least the start) of his career.

Right now he just doesn’t have a plus ML pitch as a starter. (He used to. I saw video of him in the minors.) I hope he can regain what made him baseball’s top SP prospect. In short, Hughes deserved the hype he got.

I do agree that Betances is overrated. However, Banuelos’ rankings are fair. A LHP that sits about 93 with quality secondary pitches that has yet to turn 21. A top 20 MLB prospect (where he normally is) seems about right to me.

by Travis G on Jan 27, 2012 9:48 PM EST via Android app reply actions  

You really need to write more

I don’t think you’ve written one post that hasn’t gotten 5+ recs.

"I could never wear another uniform. I will always be a Yankee"- Jorge Posada

Thanks for the memories Jorge

by nyyrocks29 on Jan 27, 2012 11:05 PM EST reply actions  

It's all about perceived ceiling

a prospect has to have stats that exceed expectations for several years before jumping ahead of another prospect that has superior tools. Look at Bichette Jr., he mashed in his first year in the minors and will be hard pressed to ever see a top 100 list because of his perceived abilities and his position in the draft.

But to be fair, would using those statistics you posted more prominently when evaluating prospects be any more useful? It’s a crazy crap shoot no matter the approach and a tough balance to strike when evaluating between stats and talent.

by Chuck Burly on Jan 27, 2012 11:18 PM EST reply actions  

Age Sets Banuelos Apart

When comparing prospects’ stats at various levels, you absolutely have to factor in age. Now, Hughes was as young as Banuelos at similar stages of development, but he encountered several injuries (he has also had flashes of brilliance, suggesting his talent level was legitimate). I understand the desire to use minor league stats to make major league projections, but there are so many variables that have to be considered to remove all the noise. Ultimately, prospect ranking has to be a mix of athletic ability, approach, mechanics, and performance, so I am not sure we can tell much by comparing the stats pitchers of different ages in different (and often small) sample sizes.

Follow me on Twitter @williamnyy23.

by William Juliano on Jan 28, 2012 5:48 AM EST reply actions  

Well in terms of their standing on the Yankees, they’re towards the top by default because of a complete lack of depth. It just seems that if you put a 1,2 or 3 near a pitcher’s name on an organizational list the assumption is automatically “front end starter”.

I understand lists are completely arbitrary and not all that important, but does the fact that Manny is younger make up for the performance difference between him and someone like Drew Pomeranz? What about guys like Jacob Turner or Tyler Skaggs who are younger than Manny and have outperformed him? (in Turner’s case, at a higher level) And that’s just the pitchers…

And if athletic ability factors in, even if it’s not exactly the right phrasing in this case, does Manny being a skinny runt matter? Seems stupid to bring up, but there aren’t a lot of 5’10, 155 lb pitchers taking the mound every 5 days and running roughshod over hitters. (robbing Duggan on that issue)

The potential is there, especially for Manny, and they have time to attempt to refine it. My point is mainly to chill with the ACE! expectations when really that expectation is based largely on raw potential.

by Jedi Master A-Rod on Jan 28, 2012 9:50 AM EST up reply actions  

there aren’t a lot of 5’10, 155 lb pitchers taking the mound every 5 days and running roughshod over hitters.

Pretty much describes Ron Guidry, though.

by pinstriper on Jan 28, 2012 1:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh, I’m not saying those guys don’t exist or that it should send Manny tumbling down the prospect ladder, but the Guidry’s and Lincecum’s of the world are few and far between.

by Jedi Master A-Rod on Jan 28, 2012 1:55 PM EST up reply actions  

x

Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows

by Rorschach44 on Jan 28, 2012 8:54 AM EST reply actions  

sure enjoyed your conclusion

Your explanation of Banuelos’ control rings the bell. He struck me last spring with the control in his delivery, so the high walks befuddled me. Have you seen him yourself much, to say this, or did you gather it otherwise?

Refreshing to hear people hoping for Phil (!)

by smurfy on Jan 28, 2012 9:07 PM EST reply actions  

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