Thoughts
Mood Music - This Year by The Mountain Goats
They actually did it. They traded Jesus Montero for a pitcher. Of course they did. I thought that there was a good chance that Montero wouldn't be traded, at least not right away, given how he looked in September, but such is life. If the Yankees traded Montero for Clayton Kershaw, Matt Moore, Andrew McCutchen, and the space shuttle, it would still suck to lose him. You could make the argument (and I would) that the Yankees were better off with their newly acquired young talent and interstellar capabilities, but it's always going to sting to lose someone who can mash like Montero.
But if he were traded, you knew that it would be for a pitcher. On the surface that seems reasonable, with the Yankees biggest weakness being in the starting rotation. But, are they better in the long run now that they've upgraded their starting rotation and downgraded their lineup? Was the reasoning behind the deal sound? Most people seem to think so, and I understand why; Michael Pineda is 22 years old, fresh off of a very impressive rookie season, and his right arm is a bolt of lightning. There is every reason to be excited about what he'll bring to the team.
But, to me, the deal seems a lot like robbing Peter to pay Paul, with the plan of robbing Paul later to pay back Peter, while really trying to avoid paying either one. That probably doesn't make a whole lot of sense, so take the jump.
I'll say it simply and up-front in the hope that everything that I say afterward will be seen in its proper light: Starting pitching is really important. There's really no debating that point. The two players with the greatest impact on the outcome of any game are the two starting pitchers. Where I do draw the line, however, is where I often do. Methodologies and statements that are believed just because they're common, not because there's any real proof or tangible evidence.
Good pitching beats good hitting, starting pitching wins in October, you can never have too much pitching.
Spare me. Definitive statements like that are at best an oversimplification of a complicated game and at worst flat-out wrong. Here are the last ten World Series winners, with their respective AL or NL ranks in a few categories:

This isn't the most scientific analysis that I've ever done, but I can say with confidence that there is no pattern. There is no championship blueprint, and certainly not one that includes the best pitching rotation winning it all or good pitching beating good hitting. In just the last six years, the World Series has been won by: a good offense carrying bad pitching (2011 Cardinals), good pitching carrying a bad offense (2010 Giants), a team that excelled at both (2009 Yankees, 2007 Red Sox), and a team that was bad at both (2006 Cardinals).
*For reference, the 2011 Yankees ranked 2nd in the AL in runs scored, 4th in ERA, 4th in starting pitcher fWAR, and 5th in starting pitcher ERA, meaning that they would have rated as an average to above average World Series winner last year.
With an ever expanding playoff pool, the variance is only going to increase and the correlation between winning the World Series and any specific attribute will only decrease. The goal of the Yankees, then, should not be to improve their starting pitching, but to improve the quality of their team as a whole, with better starting pitching being one way that they can do that.
A common theme was that the Yankees got supremely lucky to milk 7.8 fWAR out of the combination of Freddy Garcia, Bartolo Colon, and Ivan Nova. They did. They had no right to expect that amount of production from those three and have no right to expect equal performance in 2012. Nova has the best chance, and could even presumably improve; Freddy Garcia is another year older and another year removed from the incredibly good deed that led to his first half karma (or so I presume); Bartolo Colon is an Oakland Athletic.
However, after signing Hiroki Kuroda, you could make the case that a rotation of Sabathia, Kuroda, Nova, Garcia, and any kind of production from the Hughes/Burnett monster could be expected to approximate the 2011 results. Even with some regression across the board, it's not a disastrous five starters to begin the season with.
However, if the Yankees are serious about making it to the $189MM mark by 2014*, they were much better positioned to augment a struggling starting rotation than a struggling offense. Assuming that payroll constrictions prevent the Yankees from making a big splash with a free agent like Prince Fielder, Cole Hamels, (2013) or Matt Cain (2013), the main cogs of the team for the next few years are already in place.
*It's tough to dismiss the notion that this is posturing, but the financial boon that the team would get for doing this is so overwhelming that I don't have much doubt that the powers that be are going to at least give it a serious shot.
With the bloated contracts in place that create most of the difficulties for the team, it's hard to imagine a scenario in which talent is going to be added that is not on the cheap. The best and easiest way to get value at a discount is through the minor league pipeline. Unfortunately, while the starting pitchers in the system with the potential to impact the major leagues in the next few years are myriad, the impact hitter in the system was Jesus Montero. The strength of our farm system has for years been pitchers and Jesus Montero, now it's just pitchers.
Now that Montero is gone, what minor league bat is on the horizon of contributing? Gary Sanchez is 19 years old and hit .256/.335/.485 in A ball, while allowing 26 passed balls in 60 games behind the plate. Mason Williams has even further to go. Brandon Laird had a .288 OBP in Scranton this year. Maybe someone comes out of nowhere, but without Montero, the likelihood of the Yankees farm system providing an impact bat just nosedived.
Nick Swisher and Russell Martin are free agents after this coming season; we have one more option year for Curtis Granderson and Robinson Cano. The outfielders in the system are particularly dismal. Can we afford to let any of them walk? Can we afford to resign them all?
Having Montero gives the Yankees both some leverage against Martin and a way to limit the wear and tear that has been the bane of his career. If Montero can provide catching defense that is anything better than catastrophic, the lineup flexibility is enhanced greatly while adding another good hitter. With an aging team that includes entrenched and declining players like Alex Rodriguez, Derek Jeter, and Mark Teixeira for the foreseeable future, is there any doubt that offensive production is going to decline? Montero was the best counter-acting force that the Yankees had and now he's been traded so that the Yankees could have seven starting pitchers.
Which leads me to the "you can never have too much pitching" thing. Of course you can. Barring injury, what is the plan for the rotation? Dumping A.J. Burnett while swallowing 75% of his contract? Sending Phil Hughes to the pen to be the fifth right handed option behind Rivera, Roberston, Soriano, and Chamberlain? Trading Hughes at the lowest his value has ever been? Sending Ivan Nova or Phil Hughes to AAA? Freddy Garcia cannot be traded until June. Show me any of these options (and remember that we need to do two of them) that does not represent waste and inefficiency.
To get through a season, teams almost always need around ten starting pitchers. The last five years the Yankees have used nine, eight, nine, thirteen, and fourteen starters. Injuries can cause a lot of turnover and the back end of any rotation has the potential to become a revolving door. You need extra starters, but you can't carry seven at once. The last five years, the Yankees seventh starter has made two, seven, seven, nine, and six starts, with every one of them also being used out of the bullpen.
Jumping between AAA and the majors while making some spot starts and assorted bullpen appearances is a perfect job for Adam Warren and David Phelps. It's criminally wasteful to subject Ivan Nova and, to a lesser extent, Phil Hughes to that. And yet, if the season started tomorrow, the smart money would be on A.J. Burnett and Freddy Garcia both being in the rotation because there's really nothing else to do with them.
To me, it just seems like the thought process was "the Yankees scored a lot of runs in 2011 so there's no reason to be concerned about the offense. The Yankees don't have that fabled number two starter." With important offensive pieces that are either aging right before our eyes or a year or two from free agency and without much to be excited about in the minors, there is a big reason to be concerned about our offense in the coming years.
There's another shoe to drop, and my advice is this: Don't get too attached to those pitching prospects. Before long, they're going to be moved for a bat, probably an outfielder. And it's hard to imagine a scenario in which the Yankees come away ahead after trading away Jesus Montero and then shopping for a bat to replace him.
202 comments
|
7 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Wait a second...
Did you just prove my insane rambling fanpost of basic analysis & Yankees fan hatred correct with ACTUAL analysis and facts?
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 16, 2012 8:53 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Didnt we not beat the Tigers because their pitching beat our great offense?
I like the write up and not trying to take away from anybody on the site, its far ahead of anything else written on this subject. And its also shorter than most of the comments on some narrative post,lol.
With that said, I think the Yankees give to much credit to their hitters, and not enough to their pitching. The Yankees have place alot of trust in their offense to continue to get it done, while fearing that the pitching simply wont. Pitching has never been Cashman’s strong suit, but I really did like this move. Perhaps, AJ and/or Hughes will be flipped for some offensive depth on the farm.
Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.
Not only shorter, but less philosophical and mathematical!
And yes, their pitching beat out great offense, but keep in mind that they could’ve replaced some of the offense that was struggling COUGHMARTINCOUGH and they didn’t because they also believed for some strange reason that defense would beat both great pitching and offense. At that point in time, our great offense was struggling due to health, timing, and just general suckitude.
The overall point he was trying to make with his WS chart is that there is no pattern to what beats what in a short series like that.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 16, 2012 9:04 PM EST up reply actions
I understand that and he did a good job
Lets hope these hitters make some adjustments in this years ALDS if we wind up getting there. It was far from just Martin’s fault btw. If anything, Id put it on Swisher and Tex.
Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.
He was just the most extreme example of a person who could have and should have been replaced
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 16, 2012 9:15 PM EST up reply actions
Of course
I also remember all the groaning over Posada playing too. He was probably the hottest hitter on the team.
Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.
Which again further proves how that sometimes good pitching does not beat good hitting
Or even average hitting. Posada got hot after a season of average/below average/please retire hitting.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 16, 2012 9:29 PM EST up reply actions
Careful, he may come back,lol
Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.
Believe it or not, he would probably make more sense than Damon or Matsui.
He had a 118 wRC+ against righties last season, and it’s not like Damon or Matsui will be playing the field any more than Posada would be.
And hey, if he continues to hit as well as he did at the end of the year...
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 16, 2012 9:35 PM EST up reply actions
No no no
Let the man retire with his dignity!
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 16, 2012 9:36 PM EST up reply actions
Money trumps dignity
And if they brought him back, I want a Jorge narrative column.
Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.
You mean a narrative column on True Yankee status?
That’s just simple marketability.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 16, 2012 9:40 PM EST up reply actions
At it’s finest.
Contributing writer for Pinstripe Alley.
Follow me on Twitter @frankiecamp48
by Frank Campagnola on Jan 16, 2012 9:46 PM EST up reply actions
In that series, Verlander allowed 5 runs and 11 baserunners in 9 innings while Fister allowed 7 runs and 16 baserunners in 9.2 innings. Our great offense demolished their great pitching.
Our pitchers must not have done as good a job then
Because for some reason, we didnt win.
Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.
We lost because we couldn't hit Max Scherzer
And he had a 5.23 ERA/4.74 FIP on the road (where he pitched in the ALDS) in 2011. Shit happens in a small sample size.
I was at that game….sigh
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
Didn’t we go over that already?
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
So we shouldve traded for Scherzer
Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.
me too
what a terrible game that was. the weather made it even worse.
Boone Logan is a good boy. So is David Robertson. Team A.J.
The 8th inning was amazing….rest awful
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
bottom of the ninth was fun for a while
being there for posada’s last ever triple was neat. if only robbie had launched one with 2 runners on instead of grounding out to second…
Boone Logan is a good boy. So is David Robertson. Team A.J.
Yeah, still wouldn’t have been best game I’ve been to.
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
LOL i hope it wouldn't be for anyone
i went to 7 other games last season and only one of them was worse – a blowout by the mariners with king felix on the mound and phil – i like to pitch underhand – hughes. hughes gave up 9 hits (NINE HITS TO THE MARINERS) yet somehow only gave up 2 runs through 6 innings. then granderson misplayed a few balls which allowed a ton of runs in. only plus for that day was the fact that the weather was beautiful.
Boone Logan is a good boy. So is David Robertson. Team A.J.
Best game I went to last season was the day after Jeter’s 3000th when CC shutout the Rays, I think I went to five or six last season
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
holy shit i was at that game too
that was an insanely fast game. it was like 2 hours and 10 minutes. i was in 232B and felt like shields was aiming that ball to nab Cano right at me. that was a really fun game – probably the second or third best game i’ve ever been to. the best game i ever went to was the game after steinbrenner and bob shepard died. what an awesome night that was.
Boone Logan is a good boy. So is David Robertson. Team A.J.
I debated Jedi about this the other day.
Verlander allowed 5 runs and 11 baserunners in 9 innings while Fister allowed 7 runs and 16 baserunners in 9.2 innings. Our great offense demolished their great pitching.
They did well off Fister in Game 1, but after that…
Verlander, Game 3: 8 IP, 4 ER, 6 H, 3 BB, 11 K
Fister, Game 5: 5 IP, 1 ER, 5 H, 2 BB, 4 K
That’s not demolishing. Yes, they did great off Fister in Game 1, but the duo handled the Yankees lineup afterwards.
"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth
Thats what the broadcast team said
Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.
Listening to those broadcasters, I thought I was watching Bob Gibson in his prime
Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.
Which sucks
But scoring that much against Verlander is pretty good, which is what I meant. Maybe I misunderstood.
Romine!
Looks to me, from your chart, that a balance of good, not great, pitching and a good to great ability to score runs wins championships (The ’06 Cards were an anomaly). So good hitting seems to be a tad bit more important.
Romine!
Me three
The idiot formerly known as pkyankeefan! Now in Technicolour!
by Hasan Paliwala on Jan 16, 2012 11:55 PM EST up reply actions
PSA WRITER WAAAAAAAAAR!
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 16, 2012 9:05 PM EST up reply actions
Wait what do I do? Ban them both? Dance?
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
Try to snatch victory from the weary victor!
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 16, 2012 9:20 PM EST up reply actions
Ban the very man you replaced? That would be BOLD
"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth
It'd be bolded profanity!
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 16, 2012 9:32 PM EST up reply actions
I wish you would write more, Duggan. This is brilliantly said, whether I agree or not.
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
It's much better than anything I write
And far less profane!
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 16, 2012 9:19 PM EST up reply actions
This is true!
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
Far, far less profane!
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 16, 2012 9:22 PM EST up reply actions
Quality over quantity, words to live by.
by Lord Duggan on Jan 16, 2012 10:10 PM EST up reply actions
Hello everyone
I’m new here, and have been a Yankees fan my entire life. What I must say about this deal is, while losing a big bat is hard, there are reasons why this trade isn’t so bad. We have a deep pitching staff, and if we really wanted to, could trade some of those guys like Burnett. I mean, look at it like this, if the Marlins took Zambrano, then someone has to take Burnett, right? He can still be a bit effective, (playoff win against Detroit) and doesn’t have a ton of off the field issues. Finally, since when have the Yankees looked to the future? They don’t care about the hitting situation in 2-3 years. They are a fine offensive team currently, They want to win now.
by TootooReigns on Jan 16, 2012 9:37 PM EST via iPhone app reply actions
Welcome to PSA!
I’m not a huge Jordin Tootoo fan but I have a lot of respect for the Predators. Good to have another hockey fan at PSA.
haha, I'm not surprised with that.
Everyone that doesn’t live in Nashville hates him. But I appreciate that you respect the Preds. They have been trying a long time to get everyone to notice them. Thank you for the welcome as well.
by TootooReigns on Jan 16, 2012 10:06 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Better lose to the Rangers tomorrow!
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
You wish!!
I’m excited for that game. Should be a fun one.
by TootooReigns on Jan 16, 2012 10:17 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Rinne and Weber might be the best goaltender and defenseman in all of hockey.
It’s a shame you guys can’t spend much more over the cap, I’d hate to see Suter-Weber split up because ownership is being cheap.
by Briceratops on Jan 16, 2012 10:16 PM EST up reply actions
They are very close to it, I agree
Yeah, well the ownership is repeatedly saying that they do have they money, it just depends on if Suter and Weber want to sign or not. But, they have both stated they want to play for a competitive team and at the same time would love to stay here. Suter is UFA, and we have to either sign him or move him at the deadline, so the clock is ticking. Can’t really tell if the ownership or Weber and Suter are telling the truth, which keeps all of us Preds fans worrying.
by TootooReigns on Jan 16, 2012 10:36 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I mean, look at it like this, if the Marlins took Zambrano, then someone has to take Burnett, right?
Someone will definitely take AJ, but only if we pay them too.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 16, 2012 9:43 PM EST up reply actions
didn't the Cubs do the same thing with the Marlins as well?
I think the Marlins must pay only 2-3 million of his salary.
by TootooReigns on Jan 16, 2012 10:09 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Zambrano only has 1 year left on his contract, AJ has 2. It makes it slightly more difficult to move him.
Jesus Montero fangirl
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Jan 16, 2012 10:10 PM EST up reply actions
I think we'd still have to pay his family
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 16, 2012 10:29 PM EST up reply actions
Not if you hide the body well enough.
Jesus Montero fangirl
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Jan 16, 2012 10:38 PM EST up reply actions
Siri should be able to pull up some good hiding places.
sixseasonsandamovie
♬P-p-pocket full of Hawthrones.♪
forgot about Zambrano's contract situation.
You have a point.
by TootooReigns on Jan 16, 2012 10:23 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Finally, since when have the Yankees looked to the future? They don’t care about the hitting situation in 2-3 years.
That’s kind of the problem.
Jesus Montero fangirl
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Jan 16, 2012 9:58 PM EST up reply actions
You can never have too much phenomenally talented starting pitching
I like where you’re going with your graph, but you get off the highway a couple stops too soon.
(Skip to point four if you have a short attention span)
Year | Team | R/G rank | WHIP rank | K/9 rank | K/BB rank
2011 | STL | 1 | 10 | 5 | 5
2010 | SFG | 9 | 3 | 1 | 6
2009 | NYY | 1 | 3 | 1 | 4
2008 | PHI | 3 | 5 | 11 | 7
2007 | BOS | 3 | 1 | 3 | 4
First, I apologize for the formatting, but I can’t post a table in a comment and I didn’t want to start a fanpost.
Second, offense in the playoffs is fairly straightforward and easy to understand: the best offenses score the most runs; since the team’s 9 best offensive players can play nearly every day of the season and every day of the postseason, there’s a direct correlation between what happens offensively in 162 games and what happens in 19 (max) games.
Third, (as Duggan says) baseball is complicated and the two most important players in a game are the starting pitchers. But the pitchers who will appear in the season’s final ~18 games are the elite subset of the regular season squad. In 2011, 14 Cardinals reached 100 PA (~1/6 of a 600 PA season) and 12 pitchers reached 30 IP (~1/6 of a 200 IP season). But in the postseason, the Cardinals used 12 hitters and 12 pitchers (and that’s despite LaRussa setting records for relievers used and pitching changes). So while season stats for offense translate quite well, season stats for pitching are harder to translate.
Fourth and most important, while hitting can be easily compressed into runs scored (given an adequate sample size and a couple caveats), defense is harder to compress. One of the reasons we talk so much about Batting Average on Balls in Play is that the sheer luck of it all has a much bigger role than any of us would like to admit. So, I don’t think it’s fair to compare the stats you compare in your post.
In my table, I try to look at rank in a few different pitching categories. The thing I see suggested (and I recall a Billy Beane quote to this effect) is that the ability to miss bats is what matters most in the postseason. Obviously, I’d want a much bigger sample size (as in, all of baseball history) before I decided that was definitive, but the team that missed the most bats in the regular season won the WS just as often as the team that scored the most runs (though, in fairness, the 2009 Yankees were the best at both; can we stop for a moment to reflect on what a great team that was).
This pretty much sums up how i feel and it makes a lot of sense
Montero was the best counter-acting force that the Yankees had and now he’s been traded so that the Yankees could have seven starting pitchers.
The only thing to be said about that is its January
Who knows what else Cashman has up his sleeve? This Pineda deal came out of nowhere, he still has time to move AJ and/or Hughes.
Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.
When it's pitching, it's "PANIC!"
When it’s hitting it’s “lets see what Cashman does!”
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 16, 2012 9:46 PM EST up reply actions
That may be the way some people act, I was fine waiting to see if Yanks were gonna make moves this winter
Im sure there were Yankee “fans” that were pissed we didnt get Albert.
Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.
They were furious we didn't get Lee
They would pay Fielder to be our DH.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 16, 2012 10:31 PM EST up reply actions
The Fielder thing makes me laugh
Peeps thought he was coming next after the Montero trade and Kuroda signing. Im guessing none of these people understand how the luxury tax works.
Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.
by YankeesJets on Jan 16, 2012 10:39 PM EST up reply actions
They don't understand how anything works
All they want is victory.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 16, 2012 10:40 PM EST up reply actions
I don't understand this
Everyone is talking about how the Yankees have a “hole” to fill at DH.
Yes, the lineup will look differently from how it looked in our minds a week ago, but the Yankees won the division by 6 games despite getting a .251/.336/.450 line from the DH last season. While Montero’s presence would have eased some of my concerns about the starting rotation, turning him into a #2 starter eases my concerns more.
The Yankees’ best counter-acting force is a solid season from any of the 3 players signed to long term deals. Arod hit .276/.362/.461 in 99 games last season. The best thing for the Yankees is to find a way to get him to play 140, and putting a 22 year old DH in the lineup won’t help.
Montero would help them more in the future
the offense is only going to be this ‘sure thing’ for a few more years, then we start losing people and we have no one internally to fill te space.
That doesn't change much with Montero
There is still going to be ARod and Tex taking up the corner infield spots with long term contracts. There is still no help for the outfield coming soon from the farm system. The team will still need to break the bank to keep Robbie, and probably Grandy as well.
If they had acted at all like they were going to give Montero a real shot at catcher, I’d feel differently. I’d have loved to see him become the Yankees catcher of the future. But clearly, that was never in their plans. So at least they managed to do something smart with him, rather than let him rot on the bench behind Russell and Romine(!) for half of the season (or more).
Agree
Montero wasn’t gonna catch in NY…and with Jete and Arod looking for that one night of DH a week that left Montero <500 ABs (or fewer ABs for Jete/Arod). Let’s not pull punches here…When I make my annual pilgrimage to NY I’m not gonna be happy if Jete or Arod don’t play…even if Montero hits a bomb and leads Yanks to victory Add that to the fact that Nunez is ready for more swings and Montero was a luxury the Yanks could do without. Pineda fills a much bigger need.
by steelerwheeler on Jan 17, 2012 1:35 PM EST up reply actions
Well, this is just strange
When I make my annual pilgrimage to NY I’m not gonna be happy if Jete or Arod don’t play…even if Montero hits a bomb and leads Yanks to victory
by MichaelGGBGrabow on Jan 20, 2012 1:33 PM EST up reply actions
Phil Hughes might not be a starter anymore and A.J. sucks. They really only have 5.
Contributing writer for Pinstripe Alley.
Follow me on Twitter @frankiecamp48
by Frank Campagnola on Jan 16, 2012 9:47 PM EST up reply actions
+1
If you come to a fork in the road, take it!
- Yogi Berra
by In The Big Inning on Jan 16, 2012 10:16 PM EST up reply actions
6
AJ sucks, but unless they pay him to play somewhere else, we’re still currently stuck with him.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 16, 2012 10:33 PM EST up reply actions
Doesn’t make him a viable option.
Contributing writer for Pinstripe Alley.
Follow me on Twitter @frankiecamp48
by Frank Campagnola on Jan 16, 2012 11:36 PM EST up reply actions
Irrelevant
He’s still starting for us unless we pay him to pitch somewhere else. That’s pretty much the only way he’s not starting for us next year. Garcia is pretty much a lock, so what they do with AJ & Hughes will probably be the next most talked about thing in the offseason next to the DH thing.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 16, 2012 11:41 PM EST up reply actions
While these numbers are very close and indicate how close the imporance of hitting AS A TEAM and pitching AS A TEAM is in the playoffs, I think the argument of the importance of a singular hitter compared to a singular pitcher is a totally different argument….especially in a postseason series.
What’s the average length of a postseason series in the 7 game setup? 6ish? Maybe 5.7 or something. Let’s say 6 for argument sake. A pitcher who pitches 2 games(which a top tier pitcher would) over those 6 at an average of 7 innings(which is fair for a top tier pitcher). That pitcher would be credited for about 21 outs in each game, 42 for the series. A hitter over that same 6 games series will probably have an average of a little over 4 at bats a game. So say over those 6 games that batter will probably get about 26 at bats(i think thats fair). So a top tier starter will account for about 42 outs on the mound to a batters 26 plate appearances.
Also, a team with an elite pitcher can control how much that pitcher impacts the game. Do you want him to pitch 8 innings? 9? 10? That team can control that pitchers influence, making him a more useful and valuable weapon. A hitter obviously has to wait his turn in the lineup and cant be utilized at a more frequent level(and since we are arguing elite pitcher vs. elite hitter….an elite hitter can be intentionally walked, pitched carefully, beaned. There are ways to avoid a great hitter or lessen his impact without using much actual skill. There isnt anything you can do to avoid a great pitcher if he’s dominating at that time.) And no I’m not saying an elite hitter has no impact, he has a huge impact I’m jsut saying it can be controlled easier than an elite pitcher.
In my opinion, I think a batter would have to really have a gigantic postseason series to equal an elite pitchers value.
by cermolaNY2 on Jan 16, 2012 9:47 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Very interesting points
that deserve further study.
I remember BPro said the postseason “secret sauce” was pitchers’ K/9, closer quality and defense. It had nothing to do with hitting. But that was around 5 years ago. I wonder if it’s different now.
I like the song
I never heard the Mountain Goats before.
If you come to a fork in the road, take it!
- Yogi Berra
by In The Big Inning on Jan 16, 2012 10:15 PM EST reply actions
I've had Yankee fever
and I’ve had spring fever, but fortunately I have never had Bieber fever!
If you come to a fork in the road, take it!
- Yogi Berra
by In The Big Inning on Jan 16, 2012 10:40 PM EST up reply actions
I thought this was an actual website (is it?)
by bloppy_ploppy on Jan 16, 2012 10:45 PM EST up reply actions
Well written but
WTF kind of title is “Thoughts”? Clearly you don’t get creative with those. Right to the point.
I'll do whatever it takes to win games, whether it's sitting on a bench waving a towel, handing a cup of water to a teammate, or hitting the game-winning shot.- Kobe Bryant
A.J. Burnett's only fan!
Not every title can have the word "dicktarded" in it!
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 16, 2012 10:33 PM EST up reply actions
lol
I never get tired of that word.
If you come to a fork in the road, take it!
- Yogi Berra
by In The Big Inning on Jan 16, 2012 10:41 PM EST up reply actions
Storylines
"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth
Sausage
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 16, 2012 10:57 PM EST up reply actions
Testicles?
Yes, that is Mike Marra.
by TheRealSlimShady on Jan 16, 2012 11:25 PM EST up reply actions
Really good post
I enjoyed reading it. I think the Yankees felt like pitching was a more immediate need. I think they feel like when they need to add an impact bat in a few years, they will have the prospects to trade for one, or maybe even enough cap space to sign a big bat. This move should save us some money because we probably won’t be pursuing a high priced pitcher in free agency next year. I think the Yankees also had concerns about Montero’s ability to catch, and would prefer to leave the DH spot open for A-Rod.
Carlos Pena could replace Monteros production
Sign Pena to one year 10 million deal and have him be the DH/Backup 1B and play against righties. He crushed righties to a .383 wOBA and .388 OBP last season. Andruw Jones would start against lefties because of his .400 wOBA and .384 OBP. That’s a pretty deadly DH combo.
I can't believe they'd spend $10MM on a platoon DH
…but then I don’t think Carlos Pena will get anywhere near 10 mil.
by Let's Talk About Tex Baby on Jan 16, 2012 11:06 PM EST up reply actions
Not two years. Probably 1 year $7 million
by bloppy_ploppy on Jan 16, 2012 11:15 PM EST up reply actions
Cashman deserves to be stabbed in the eye with a spork if he gives Carlos Pena a 2-year deal
by Jedi Master A-Rod on Jan 16, 2012 11:16 PM EST up reply actions
It's not Pena it's the two years that I personally disagree with
I actually think Pena on a one year deal would be a fantastic signing.
by Briceratops on Jan 16, 2012 11:19 PM EST up reply actions
im for that i guess. im intrigued by matsui. i know many people thought he was done and was going back to japan but i dont know id be curious to see how he would do back in new york. i also think hed be willing to take 1-2 mill to play for the yankees(which has been reported as all the yanks will pay a dh, who knows if thats true). i assume hed really love to be back on a contender, getting somewhat consistent at bats. and hes just a good/smart hitter, hes a tough out. i wouldnt mind giving him a shot. damon is probably to expensive if this 1-2 million limit is accurate.
I love Matsui...
He’s among my 3 or 4 favorite Yankees of the past ten years. But he had a .660 OPS vs. righties last year. I prefer to move forward rather than trying to recapture the past. I won’t be up in arms if either he or Damon is brought in, but if it were me, I’d pass on both.
by Let's Talk About Tex Baby on Jan 16, 2012 11:18 PM EST up reply actions
I definitely understand where you’re coming from. Who do you think is the best options out there right now?
I'm not really thrilled with any of the free agent options
I’d see what it would take to deal for someone like Billy Butler or Kendry Morales, but barring that, which is unlikely, I’d probably just sign a couple vets to minor league deals – Brad Hawpe? Carlos Guillen? – and let them compete with our few in-house options such as Jorge Vazquez, Brandon Laird, Jason Maxwell, etc. Then I’d re-evaluate the position at the deadline. It’s never hard to make a deal for a DH type mid-season.
by Let's Talk About Tex Baby on Jan 17, 2012 8:09 AM EST up reply actions
I think the Angels could be an intriguing trade match. They have a total overload in the OF/1B. I’d be interested to see what it’d take to get Abreu/Wells obviously with the Angels eating a large portion of their contracts. Or just an AJ/Wells swap. They definitely have very little need for both of them with Bourjos/Hunter/Morales/Trumbo clogging the OF and DH spots and I have to think they would love to give Trout some legitimate at bats this season but their is just no space right now.
Vernon Wells is signed through 2014 and was awful last year. No thank you.
Jesus Montero fangirl
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Jan 17, 2012 5:58 PM EST up reply actions
Like i said, an AJ for Wells deal intrigues me. I know Wells had a bad year, that’s why I’m saying trade AJ for him(he was bad as well if u haven’t noticed). Both are awful contracts but I think it would help both teams. Personally, I think Wells has more left in the tank WITH US than AJ and would help us more.
AJ is bad, yes, but his contract isn’t as long as Wells. We’d be rid of that problem before the Wells problem.
Jesus Montero fangirl
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Jan 17, 2012 7:18 PM EST up reply actions
They also lost some candidates for the 5th spot in the rotation. They trade Tyler Chatwood away to Colorado and lost Joel Pineiro. I could see AJ doing well in that 5th spot under the radar and in the AL West. Obviously, I’d be shocked if a deal I brought up happened, but to me, it makes perfect sense for both teams.
Bottom line for me is it's easier to buy offense than pitching
There’s more than one way to win a World Series, although without doing any statistical or historic analysis, it seems to me that starting pitching strength is the most common thread among World Series winners.
But putting that aside, look at the Yankees the last ten years. They’ve developed 2 productive offensive players (Cano and Gardner), yet they’ve been among the top offensive teams in baseball every year besides 2008. This is because the majority of their offensive acquisitions have been at least reasonably productive. They’ve made some bad long-term investments, but even these players, for the most part, have contributed.
On the other hand, the Yankees starting pitching has been inconsistent from year to year. They’ve developed 2 productive starting pitchers (Wang, who flamed out early due to injury and Nova who the jury is still out on). They’ve made 2 signings which were major hits (Mussina and Sabathia), but the rest of their starting pitching acquisitions have ranged from mediocre to dismal.
So with this in mind, I would rather have the 22 year old potential ace than the 22 year old potential star hitter.
by Let's Talk About Tex Baby on Jan 16, 2012 11:17 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
Mind Reading
Jack Z – We get Noesi, who can post siimlar stats to Pineda in Safeco in a less flashy style, so it’s Montero for Campos. Sign me up.
Cash – Noesi is a 4 ERA guy here, and I can sign Pena right now for 10 mil. There’s no Pineda type guy out there right now for 10 mil, and Girardi loves Martin. We don’t have a “Mariano” in the system, and Campos gives us that, with upside to start. I just paid big bucks for Soriano with a ton of risk to get Soriano. Pull the trigger.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 16, 2012 11:19 PM EST reply actions
What? No one thinks that Noesi can be a Pineda. A ballpark may lower one’s homerun rates, but it’s not giving you a top k/9 ratio.
by bloppy_ploppy on Jan 16, 2012 11:45 PM EST up reply actions
It might cause shrinkage
If the water is cold enough
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 16, 2012 11:47 PM EST up reply actions
The balls might tense up, becoming less relaxed
by bloppy_ploppy on Jan 16, 2012 11:48 PM EST up reply actions
Lawled.
Crazy kids.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 17, 2012 12:40 AM EST up reply actions
Seattle, WA gets less annual rainfall than Richmond, VA
It get’s a bad rap.
by MichaelGGBGrabow on Jan 20, 2012 1:41 PM EST up reply actions
I think he meant runs allowed
ERA and such. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Noesi post an ERA below 4 with some help from a good defense and large ballpark.
by Briceratops on Jan 16, 2012 11:48 PM EST up reply actions
Interesting
Noesi’s ERA+ was 99 while Pineda’s was 103. But Noesi’s xFIP was 4.02 while Pineda’s was 3.53
by bloppy_ploppy on Jan 16, 2012 11:53 PM EST up reply actions
Interesting indeed.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 17, 2012 12:41 AM EST up reply actions
Keep in mind.
Noesi was coming out of the pen, which he isn’t used to. This man is a major league starting pitcher.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 17, 2012 12:42 AM EST up reply actions
Great Post!
One of the year’s best at this site.
by alouishes on Jan 16, 2012 11:48 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Best article of all time. End of discussion.
by Briceratops on Jan 16, 2012 11:48 PM EST up reply actions
Duggan is the inaugural member of the PSA Hall of Fame.
by bloppy_ploppy on Jan 16, 2012 11:50 PM EST up reply actions
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
Was this like an attempt at a news update fanpost?
by bloppy_ploppy on Jan 16, 2012 11:58 PM EST up reply actions
No, it was front page stuff from the guy who kept this ship afloat without any help for a long time.
What ever happened to this guy?
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 17, 2012 2:03 AM EST up reply actions
Jscape overthrew his control in a hostile takeover
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
by Brandon C. on Jan 17, 2012 10:23 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I think I remember reading that he just left for personal reasons.
"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth
And about Shelley! That’s why I linked it
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
by Brandon C. on Jan 17, 2012 10:22 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
a simpler
explanation is that the yankees don’t think montero can catch and the other positions (1b/dh) are filled for the next 5 years.
at some point a-rod and jeter could be the everyday dh’s and if montero can’t hack it at Catcher, how is he going to get at-bats.
giriadi likes a defensive minded catcher and paired with the loooooong contracts they gave a-rod, tex, and jeter, montero never had a chance to succeed
the yankees are also banking on the fact that between romaine, jr murphy, and sanchez, one of them can become the catcher of the future within 2-5 years (2 for romine, 4-5 for sanchez)
also like Lets Talk ABout Tex says, hitting is easier to acquire than pitching in FA and in the draft and like someone mentioned, the yankees just need to get under the cap for 1 year then they can go back to their free spending ways
Totally agree. I don’t think they liked what they saw out of Montero behind the plate and didn’t view him as a realistic full time option back there, especially with the preferences of Girardi. Someone mentioned them working with his technique back there as a reason why they viewed him as their everyday catcher. Disagree, it’s the smart thing to do. You maximize every players potential/value for situations just like last Friday’s trade. What’s he going to practice taking reps at DH? Obvious thing to do is work on his defense behind the plate. And thats where DH/1B comes up as you mentioned. Those aren’t positions of need and in the case of DH, aren’t positions of value. The fact that this late in FA we have all these options that not only would work at DH, but are also dirt cheap, tells you we made the correct move.
"If Montero can provide catching defense that is anything better than catastrophic..."
Was apparently the IF that Cash didn’t think existed. In fact, apparently Passan thinks the same…
Time will tell. I wish the kid luck. Made for a bit of a September to remember.
http://thetimes-tribune.com/sports/donnie-collins-trading-montero-may-prove-to-be-a-mistake-1.1258544#axzz1jgxFfh7j
Jesus Montero fangirl
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Jan 17, 2012 12:53 AM EST reply actions
Man, everyone writes more well thought out articles than me!
I’ll be on my bed pouting!
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 17, 2012 12:57 AM EST up reply actions
Conversely, adding one good hitter to the lineup isn’t going to solve any postseason offensive problems. Hitting in the postseason is random as hell and we be just as fine with Ramiro Pena in the lineup as Jesus montero. okay i’m exaggerating but looking back in some recent WS teams, David Freese who’s a good but not great player carried the cardinals last year. Before that the Giants had Cody Ross and Edgar Renteria. And there was eckstein and so on. I mean even looking back to the tiger series, the hitter that hurt us alot was Delmon friggin young…and our best hitter was Posada who couldn’t hit a lick in the regular season.
Also the idea a pitcher pitching 5 days vs a hitter playing everyday is flawed. As someone pointed out, a hitter will have 600 abs while a pitcher throws who throws 200 innings will face 600 batters. They are two sides of the same coin and you need both to succeed. You can’t simply arbitrarily say one affects the game more than another.
Regardless of the numbers of batters you face, it’s still only in 34(ish) starts, whereas those 600 PA could come every single game of the entire season.
by MichaelGGBGrabow on Jan 20, 2012 1:52 PM EST up reply actions
Asinine
“When the Yankees scored five runs, they were unbeatable when the games mattered most. When they struggled to score, they didn’t win even once.”
Last season, the Yankees went 74-14 when they scored 5 or more runs. If they could have done that all season, they would have won 136 games.
In their last 14 playoff games, the Yankees went 6-1 when they allowed 4 runs or fewer. If they allowed a 5th run, their record dropped to 1-6.
Clearly, they should just allow fewer runs. Furthermore, since their offense ranked 2nd in runs, 1st in HR, 3rd in SB, 2nd in OBP, and 3rd in SLG, while pitching ranked 9th in WHIP, 9th in quality starts, 8th in IP/GS, 7th in BB/9, 4th in K/BB, and left the 3rd most runners on base in the AL, I would argue that the Yankees have a lot more room to improve their starting pitching than their offense.
Dear Duggan
Kindly stop reading my mind and rearranging the absolute disaster that is raging within into logical and coherent arguments like the one above.
189 million in 2014....
THAT’S why this trade makes sense.
You get a (projected) long term, young, CHEAP member of your rotation vs a part-time, young, cheap DH.
And if we’ve learned anything over the past few off seasons….there are an abundance of aging vets, who can still be productive in the DH slot, who will sign cheap (after they get over their egos). You’ve seen it all over the league.
Pitching, dollar wise, is still expensive. While the prices on the older/shaky guys is “coming down”….coming down equates to 7 to 10 million a year.
For DH candidates? It’s closer to 2 million a year.
This move was AS MUCH about dollars and cents as it was about improving the Yanks rotation this year.
Exactly right
This is about building a pitching staff now for an aging team, while also keeping the payroll down to that magic number that’ll save them that 50 mil next year. In that context, it is a worthwhile gamble that Pineda becomes an ace type of pitcher.
Go Giants!
He looks sad. :(
"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth
He has the same look that one llama does that appears on this board so much
by BlackandGoldTSgt on Jan 17, 2012 9:40 PM EST up reply actions
Cuz he was fucking abandoned by our asshole GM.
by Briceratops on Jan 17, 2012 9:48 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs

by 






































