The Trade's Narrative - I'mGivingYouAnExplanation
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 14, 2012 6:35 PM EST
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This will be a quick fanpost, and I'm only speaking for myself, but allow me to explain what my real problem is here with what the Yankees did. More after the jump...
For all intents and purposes, Pineda will probably do well on the Yankees. I've seen him pitch many times when I watched Mariners games due to my job and I think he's pretty good. Cantos doesn't interest me in the slightest for the same reason that most prospects don't interest me in the slightest, because again I know the organization I root for, and lets just say that handling pitching prospects hasn't always been their cup of Joba.
Why I personally dislike this trade, and again I'm speaking solely for myself here, is the bullshit narrative behind why we did it. All offseason long we've kept hearing the same shit about how the Yankees need a #2, how the Yankees rotation is hanging by a thread, and so on and so forth. Last year pitching was not a problem. Our front office knew what they were doing when the signed Colon and Garcia and brought up Ivan Nova. We made it as far as we did because we had pitching depth, and most of pitching depth was still there save for Colon. The World Series Championship Red Sox did not make it cause they had a lot of starting rotation question marks & no depth. The Phillies had the most potent, dangerous pitching rotation in the majors and still didn't get any farther than we did. After all was said and down, last year proved that teams win championships, not just the pitching narrative that gets shoved down our throats every year. Hitting was the reason we lost in the ALDS last year, not pitching nor pitching depth. Hell, our pitching depth kept us in Game 5 of the ALDS right to the very end.
I'm not saying that there's no reason to improve. However, since they had pitching depth and could acquire other pitching depth, like they did by resigning Garcia & signing Kuroda, they already had a decent amount of pitching depth and could have cheaply gotten a bit more if they really needed to. But apparently, we absolutely needed a "#2 starter" because without one we were doomed like Zapp Brannigan on the Titantic. This is what I hate about the trade, the reasoning that went into it and the narrative that comes with it. Suddenly with Pineda and Kuroda, the Yankees now have a #2 and are the favorites for the AL East again, like there was some serious kind of doubt that we'd make it again even though we had less question marks than the Red Sox and Rays going into the season. The Yankees are not a team that relies on luck. Luck did not get them to the position they are in today. Luck did not get us to the postseason. Last season, like every season, is carefully planned out in order to continue doing what the Yankees do best, which is the business of victory.
Judging by everything that happened in baseball last year, does Pineda really give fans that much more comfort going into the postseason or the start of the year in general? Was there seriously that much doubt that we'd make it back to the postseason especially with how much more potent and powerful our offense got due to Posada retiring and Montero being the DH/Backup C, or with how much more potent and powerful our healthy, strong, and hopefully Mitre-less bullpen would be? That's why I personally do not like this trade, not because of the players involved in it but more towards the usual bullshit narrative that pitching wins championships when last year proved move than any other year that teams win championships, not just who has the best pitching staff. Do we have the team to win the World Series in 2012, or even get to the playoffs? As per usual, I'm always confident that the Yankees will make it and that they'll win, but it's still just as much of a question mark to me as it was 2 days ago. It's that question mark that makes baseball so much fun to watch. However, now once again we are the narrative team to beat in the AL East.
Yay
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One thing I don’t get.
When people said to trade Nick Swisher everyone said NOOO small sample size he’ll be fine the Yankees lineup is fine!
Any time someone suggested a lineup change because of the playoffs they were shot down.
From what I read the problem was always clutch hitting, and that the lineup was fine in the regular season. So why is that any different now?
The Yankees were fine without Montero to get to the playoffs, and they will be fine without Montero to get to the playoffs again.
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
Wait, hold on…
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
People shot them down because you don’t make decisions based on small sample size. The Swisher trades weren’t about getting a pitcher, they were about getting rid of some un-clutch bum. The media outlets still talked about the Yankees lack of a #2. I don’t understand why that was only our problem. Tons of teams don’t even have a #1, the Red Sox don’t even have a full rotation, but the Yankees NEED a #2 or else they’re doooooooomed
But how did we get to the playoffs with a lineup that didnt feature Montero all season long?
Sure we lost to Detroit because the bats didnt show up, but was one bat going to chance everything?
Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.
Im glad for Jesus they did trade him
Some folks sound like they expected this kid to carry the entire team on his back.
Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.
Thats unrealistic
The only player I’ve ever seen truly carry a team on his back was A-Rod in 2007. That was the best year by a Yankee since Mantle’s years, and even then he had some help from Jeter and Posada. It’s a team game. One bat doesn’t change everything.
On the other hand, if Montero’s projection of him becoming a 35+ HR threat actually come true, thats an impact bat that can make a team a lot better, and I think that people are worried about the rest of the aging offense. I have a hard time believing that this team will ever let this offense be a problem, so I wouldn’t worry too much. But I understand why people do.
I'll do whatever it takes to win games, whether it's sitting on a bench waving a towel, handing a cup of water to a teammate, or hitting the game-winning shot.- Kobe Bryant
A.J. Burnett's only fan!
I understand it too
But I also seriously doubt that they wouldnt make moves to help the offense.
Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.
I disagree
Hopes and expectations were high, but most Yankee fans (I think) knew that he was a young player who was going to bat 7th or 8th most of the year. No one was expecting him to be an MVP candidate.
by long time listener on Jan 14, 2012 10:27 PM EST up reply actions
Not for this year but some are acting like are lineup is finished in the future now
Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.
by YankeesJets on Jan 14, 2012 11:07 PM EST up reply actions
I wouldn't say finished
But A-Rod, Jeter, Teixeira, and Granderson will all likely be producing less than they are now. We have no catchers that can hit close to the majors. We are going to have to sign a right fielder or re-sign Swisher who will also likely be producing less than he is now. I think you would have to be pretty optimistic to suggest that the five players I listed will all be as good in 2013 as they were in 2011. Again, not saying that they will be TERRIBLE but when most of our lineup regresses, which is what happens when players age, it will be noticeable.
by Briceratops on Jan 14, 2012 11:28 PM EST up reply actions
I still don’t know why you’re lumping Tex & Granderson in with players who are nearly 5 years older than them. That’s a significant difference.
"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth
Swish, too, for that matter.
"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth
Its also having little faith that anybody else can break through
The Yanks were able to develop guys like Montero, Cano and Gardner but in the future they wont be able to? Nobody ever saw Cano as an elite spect but he broke through. You never know what guy down on the farm is the next Cano waiting to break out.
Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.
by YankeesJets on Jan 15, 2012 12:39 AM EST up reply actions
Plus...
Hitters are generally easier to buy on the free agent market than pitchers. Hitters also tend to cost less in trades than pitchers. While the 2013 free agent class is devoid of offense, we still have enough in our farm to make a deal if we’re hurting for offense.
by Let's Talk About Tex Baby on Jan 15, 2012 1:01 AM EST up reply actions
Then they're idiots
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 14, 2012 11:59 PM EST up reply actions
The back three was a huge question mark. A.J. sucks, who knows what we’ll get from Phil and are we really expecting another 150 innings of 3.60 ERA ball from Freddy Garcia? And also, we lost Colon, who was largely our second best starter throughout the season.
It’s not a narrative. We needed pitching.
Contributing writer for Pinstripe Alley.
Follow me on Twitter @frankiecamp48
by Frank Campagnola on Jan 14, 2012 8:24 PM EST reply actions
Fixed
also, welostditched Colon
"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth
Kuroda is a nice pickup, he is also going to be 37
Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.
Nothing from his recent performance has suggested he will slow down.
Next year Banuelos or Betances could fill in the rotation or we could have signed one of the free agents. Trading Montero was dumb.
Says you.
"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth
Pretty much this
I probably wouldn’t have done the trade because I love Montero, but my god. This was far from dumb. It’s an incredibly fair deal.
I'll do whatever it takes to win games, whether it's sitting on a bench waving a towel, handing a cup of water to a teammate, or hitting the game-winning shot.- Kobe Bryant
A.J. Burnett's only fan!
Worth checking out the other side...
Matthew from Lookout Landing:
I prefer seeing players generate hype from their numbers than from scouting reports. Currently, Montero is more in scout hype than number hype territory and you frankly cannot find a bigger question than whether he will catch or not. By positional values, the difference between a catcher and a DH is 30 runs over a full season. Thirty flippin’ runs! That’s ginormous. It’s a huge factor in what kind of player Montero ends up being.
"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth
I'm emotionally attached, but I still think it's fair
Guess I’ll be the exception!!!
I'll do whatever it takes to win games, whether it's sitting on a bench waving a towel, handing a cup of water to a teammate, or hitting the game-winning shot.- Kobe Bryant
A.J. Burnett's only fan!
I was pretty motionally attached too lol
i’ll rephrase, The ones that put aside emotions and realized it was a fair trade
And if none of the 2012 pitchers hit the market or signs with us and the B’s have trouble in the MLB since they are still unpolished…then where does that leave us? At least Pineda is cheap, young and has proven success in the MLB level.
It leaves us in the same position we're always in...
Going to the postseason.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 15, 2012 3:26 AM EST up reply actions
So does having Montero…Whats the point then? The Yanks rather have pitching than a bat for the future.
The point is that "pitching wins championships"
Clearly, it does. Clearly.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 15, 2012 3:42 AM EST up reply actions
You say the they are in the same position as they were with montero. So whats the difference? The team wanted a talent young pitcher over a talented young hitter. Nothing to do with “narratives” rather the yanks fee having a young potential ace is worth more than having a young slugger.
If they were in the same positions as they were with Montero
Then it has everything to do with “narratives” for the reasons you yourself just stated. They feel that pitching is more important than hitting, I.E. the “Pitching Wins Championships” narrative!
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 15, 2012 3:46 AM EST up reply actions
You really think the yankees are making moves based on narratives? Do you really think they are that dense? They made the move because they evaluated the talent, weigh the pros and cons and decided they like Pineda enough for the future to wager montero on him. Nothing to do with “pitching wins championships”. Yanks just saw a good young pitcher on the market and just happen to fit their need and decided to take the chance on him for the future over montero.
by lololol on Jan 15, 2012 3:50 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yes, they are, and I'll explain why...
Like I douchebaggily said down below to Frank, the Yankees spout the “WINNING THE WS IS EVERYTHING” mantra that we the fans love to hear. And I quote, “It’s not a victory unless we win the World Series!” Do you honestly think that they think that it’s possible? Do you really think they are that dense?
No, they know it’s clearly not so they do what they know people want to see, fixing “supposed” problems which will “supposedly” get us a World Series championship when their only goal is making it to the postseason, because that’s what TRULY draws the fans in here in NYC. The “pitching wins championship” narrative is a cah-LASSIC one spouted by the highly involved and crack addicted sports media havens like NY & Boston. Trust me, I know. I’ve worked and still work in the goddamn field. So what they do is they fill that need because it gives worry wart fans a sense that they are truly addressing the problems of the postseason, when in reality they know that the playoffs are a crapshoot. Anyone can win a 5 game series. Anyone. If you don’t think they know this, then you’re living in a baseball loving fantasy and ignoring the sheer genius of the money making business aspect of it.
Like I said, the Yankees are an organization built to go to the postseason every single year, and they’ve been doing it damn near flawlessly for the past 16-17 years now, because that business model is what keeps fans paying the big bucks to see them play. To coin a nerd phrase, “The spice must flow!” As I’ve said, the Yankees get to the postseason with or without Pineda, with or without Montero. Since pitching is always the supposed problem, Montero is not the supposed solution. Pineda is. He’s a “proven” MLB pitcher who apparently has the potential to become an ace while Montero has the potential to become one of the league’s best hitters. Aces are more important than bats in the postseason judging by pretty much the vast majority of the sports media that NY sports fans listen too, so they’ve done what gives the fans & the media a sense of ease. NOW, the Yankees are the favorites to win the AL East.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 15, 2012 4:05 AM EST up reply actions
What? I'm losing you.
So if Montero was traded for a hitter would it make you feel better because they went against the classic narrative? I mean seriously i don’t know where to begin. The fact your whole idea is somehow based around that it’s somehow stupid of the yankees to get Pineda because it plays into a narrative is just…i don’t know. The Narrative is out there boohoo, Yankees getting Pineda is not them buying the narrative rather more of a coincidence that they wanted a young pitcher and got it. If the Narrative was offense wins championship, would you be this raving mad that the yanks went out and got a pitcher? I mean seriously, this starting to make less and less sense.
by lololol on Jan 15, 2012 4:20 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
I'm not surprised
It’s not about feeling better or worse because it’s just business, however because since Montero is a top prospect hitter, trading him for another hitter would be pretty pointless for both teams involved unless it was due to a salary dump by the other team. Like I said, the reason you don’t understand is because you are living in a baseball fantasy world and somehow think that the business aspect of it, the aspect of pleasing the customer, does not factor into their decisions.
As proven by the Lee/Montero trade only a year ago, age had little to do with it. It was more about talent, which is why I’ll say YET AGAIN that the trade itself doesn’t bother me because he is young, talented, and under team control unlike the Lee trade which would’ve been a rental. But WHY they did it, WHY they wanted to do it for a rental of Lee only a year and a half ago….THAT’S what bothers me. IF the narrative was “offense wins championships” and the fans believe it and the Yankees traded Man-Ban for a top hitting prospect, then yes I’d still be mad because of the reason behind the trade, which I think I have finally figured out how to explain even more to hopefully make you understand.
The reason I hate the idea of this trade, not the actual trade itself, is because I fucking hate our fanbase. I fucking hate our fanbase more than other teams hate our fanbase, but for the same exact reason. Our average frontrunning fanbase are obnoxious, spoiled morons. They saw what the Yankees did from 1996-2000 and they want that EVERY. GODDAMN. YEAR. and the intelligent fans among us know full well that IT’S NOT POSSIBLE. What they did back then was an incredible feat, one that I’ll always remember coming out of the doldrums of watching them falter and fail for the beginnings of my Yankees loving life. But average dumbass fan wants that all the time, no matter what it takes. They’ve got people like Francissy and the rest of the loud mouth sports media telling them that “pitching wins championships” and they believe it hook, line, and sinker and if the Yankees don’t deliver on what they think is the problem, they’ll stop paying to go to games. Why else would the Steinbrenner give Soriano an absurd 3 year deal to be an 8th inning guy? Because he knows it’ll keep the morons happy because they believe that “pitching wins championships.” Again, this is a good trade because Pineda is young, under team control, and is NOT a rental of Cliff Lee. But your average gutwrenching slow-witted Yankee fan doesn’t know jack shit about ANY of this. They don’t care about the details as to why the Pineda deal is a good deal, just like they wouldn’t care that the Lee deal would’ve been a god awful deal. Ultimately, that’s my real problem with this whole thing. Like I said, it’s not the trade itself, but it’s the true reasoning behind it, to appease the more clueless of fans out there. Why I’m not upset by the actual trade is because they could’ve done FAR worse than just trading Montero for Pineda. Lee could’ve been rented. Lee could’ve signed that insane 7 year deal. They could’ve given CJ Wilson a 6 year deal. They could’ve trade Montero, Man-Ban & Betances for only Felix and wiped out any high quality pitching prospect they have. The possibilities of possible stupidity are endless. In the grand scheme of things, like others have said, this was quite possibly one of the BETTER outcomes that could’ve and did happen.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 15, 2012 5:10 AM EST up reply actions
Also i will say if you weren’t a regular poster here, and this was the first post i ever saw of yours. I’d probably lump you in with a some of the other raving madmen we’ve had on this site. i mean there is just so little basis to your point and i’m really failing to see it aside that you don’t like the trade because YOU see it as following a flawed narrative, when in reality it could be a culmination of a numerous amount of other factors.
See below
If, after I’ve explained my thought process in simple business terminology, you still don’t understand where I’m coming from, simply call me a raving lunatic and tell me to shut the fuck up, cause there’s really no more dumbed down way I can say it other than what I just typed below in italics.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 15, 2012 4:47 AM EST up reply actions
Whoa
i never told you to shut the fuck up, but rather your line of thinking is hard to follow and really hard to have a solid basis in.
Haha, read what I say
I never said that you told me to shut the fuck up, but rather that if you didn’t understand or understood and still thought I was a raving lunatic to THEN tell me to STFU!
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 15, 2012 5:12 AM EST up reply actions
It's when I read the best
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 15, 2012 5:14 AM EST up reply actions
You act as if the team did this because they bought into narratives rather than actual scouting and discussion.
by lololol on Jan 15, 2012 3:50 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Scouting & discussion are basic business
To trade someone as potentially offensively good as the Jesus, the return for him had to be good whether it is for Pineda like it just was, or if it was for a rental of Cliff Lee for a few months. More important than the potential return is how it makes the customers feel about the product being put on the field. Whereas a lot of hardcore fans who do scout & look at the future were against the Montero and others for a Lee rental, and not the awesome kind like Enter the Dragon, how do you think Average Joe Citizen fan would’ve reacted if we actually got Cliff Lee in that deal? Hmmm? How do you think the NY Sports Media would’ve touted that trade? Don’t worry, we should both know the answer. Ahem…
“YES, NOW THE YANKEES ARE SET FOR THE POSTSEASON!”
“YANKEES ARE THE TEAM TO BEAT NOW!”
“WITH LEE, THE YANKEES ARE NOW UNSTOPPABLE!”
“YATTAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!”
…and so on and so vomit! Since you just posted up above about how I’m losing you, lemme see if I can explain it better.
The reason I’m not upset about this trade, the actual trade itself is because the Yankees could’ve done a far FAR FAR worse deal, like the one just mentioned, and addressed the narrative of “pitching wins championships” with a rental of Lee rather than a good deal for Pineda. Montero for Pineda, a young, somewhat cheap & team controlled potential ace, is a pretty good trade. The Yankees could’ve and, again I cannot stress this enough, ALMOST traded Montero in a far worse deal in order to address the narrative that “pitching wins championships” because it’s what the fans, the customer, want to hear and the first rule of basic business (and this is NO different in the business of baseball) is that the customer is always right.
The reason you, and probably others, do not understand my line of thinking on this is because you are not viewing baseball for what it really is, a business. It is a business first, so I’ll explain my italicized line of thinking in simple, basic business terminology:
The Yankees are salesmen and the fans are customers. The customers want a product that never fails (A World Series Championship caliber team) every year. The salesmen know that what they want is impossible due to the various factors that go into making a perfect product (WSChampionship Team). The real problem is that the salesmen know that the customers have seen this perfect product before and quite recently (from 96-2000) and that’s what they want all the time. The salesmen know that what happened back then what essentially an incredible fluke but they cannot let the customer know that or they risk losing the customer, the customer who pays for what the salesmen offer. The customers also have a friend or 3rd party (the sports media) who tells them how to make this perfect product and the customer, not knowing any better, listens to the 3rd party or friend. SO, in order to keep the customer satisfied, the salesmen continue to spend a lot of money and use whatever parts are necessary to make the best possible product and give the illusion that the new product will be as perfect as the old one, the one still perfectly fresh in the customer’s mind. The new product has little to no chance to be as perfect as the old product, but as long as the customer & his friend are happy enough, then business continues. If that product succeeds (like in 2009) then all is well. If that product doesn’t succeed, then the customer and his friend/3rd party start wondering what went wrong with the product and demand it be fixed, regardless if they know what was actually broken or IF it was actually broken. To appease the customer & 3rd party, the salesmen pretend to fix a problem, one that might or might not even exist, in order to make the customer & friend happy and continue to buy the product. The key thing throughout all of this is that the customer service is good and makes the customer feel at ease and that the product they are getting is the best and most perfect product possible that the salesmen can provide. As long as that continues, the customer pays the salesmen and business continues on.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 15, 2012 4:45 AM EST up reply actions
I get where you're coming from
but i see nothing wrong with them improving their pitching, even if it means playing into a narrative. The rotation is certainly a weak point and they wanted to strength it. And remember this isn’t a Levine/Steinbernner knee jerk run at pitching like with Soriano. Cashman himself avoided getting a lot of pitchers on the market including Ublado,Gio.Latos, and etc. I still think it was more of them feeling having Pineda will bring more future value than Montero, not necessarily all because of the “pitching wins championship” view.
Also while the “narrative” might play part of a role, ultimately i think the Yankees did their HW and tought moving forward with Pineda would have be more beneficial.
There's nothing wrong with improving their pitching
Whereas I felt they could’ve improved their pitching without giving up Montero, what we got for him & Noesi is pretty decent.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 15, 2012 11:13 AM EST up reply actions
If I may...
I’m sure the bevy of catchers in the system made this a no-brainer for Cashman. If Pineda reaches anything close to what his upside supposedly is, we’re going to be in very good shape for a while as far as the pitching staff is concerned which will in turn allow them to start addressing our aging veterans’ futures.
Romine!
Last I heard down below from Frank
We had two highly touted pitching prospects almost ready to come up to the majors as well, in addition to our bevy of catchers. If 2 still equals 2, then we were pretty decent with our pitching staff for a while as well.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 15, 2012 3:52 AM EST up reply actions
That's possible
I would have been just as happy to stand pat, as I’ve mentioned ad nauseum. But I’d guess the Yankees’ thinking was that Pineda had already had success and maybe they didn’t want to find out later that their pitching prospects weren’t “all that”. Who knows, but I knew Montero would be traded this off season. It’s the basis behind my Romine! stance.
Romine!
I don't think Romine has a future with us either
Unless his hitting picks up, the most he’ll be for us is a backup catcher until Sanchez is ready, unless Sanchez cannot catch or unless a better “proven” catcher comes along.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 15, 2012 11:15 AM EST up reply actions
He did wonders for my fantasy team last year!
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 15, 2012 11:24 AM EST up reply actions
Banuelos & Betances need plenty of work at AAA before they’re ready for the bigs. The Yankees fanbase overrates them and that’s a fact.
"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth
Yes they do
Which is why we could’ve gotten some cheap options for a year, maybe two if necessary while they develop. And maybe Yankee fans do overrate them, but considering how Man-Ban’s name is mentioned in almost every single trade that comes up, I think the rest of MLB rates him pretty high as well.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 15, 2012 11:18 AM EST up reply actions
Well he is the Yankees’ top pitching prospect, he’s going to be mentioned in almost every trade concerning the club
"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth
They wouldn't ask for him
If they thought he was worthless. LoL, although on this team he might as well be considering our track history.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 15, 2012 11:37 AM EST up reply actions
So one year is proven?
I guess Nova is a lock to be a 3 win pitcher next season. Look, I think Pineda will have a good year next season and has the potential to be great in the future. I also understand that his ballpark neutral numbers are solid and he actually had better peripherals on the road last season (correct me if I’m wrong). But I also think that someone who just gave up 0.95 HR/9 and depends on flyballs for a lot of his outs might have a tough time transitioning to YS3.
I'm not expecting Kuroda to be an ace or pitch as well as he did in the NL West
But I don’t see why he can’t throw 200 innings of ~4 ERA, which is all we really needed.
by Briceratops on Jan 14, 2012 11:45 PM EST up reply actions
Thats fine if thats what we get, but who knows if he will break down
More of a chance of that happening at his age. Im hoping it doesnt of course.
Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.
by YankeesJets on Jan 15, 2012 12:40 AM EST up reply actions
And I would agree with that
But on a one year deal I think it was one of the best moves of the offseason.
by Briceratops on Jan 15, 2012 12:47 AM EST up reply actions
I 100% agree with ya there
I love one year deals.
Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.
I'm expecting a Cy Young year out of AJ!
Seriously though, is he really going to get moved? As much as it pains me to say thats probably what makes the most sense, but I can’t see a way they get him off the team unless they just DFA him (which isn’t happening).
I'll do whatever it takes to win games, whether it's sitting on a bench waving a towel, handing a cup of water to a teammate, or hitting the game-winning shot.- Kobe Bryant
A.J. Burnett's only fan!
DFA seems smarter than keeping him at this point
Because wouldn’t it save a pretty significant number on the luxury tax?
by Let's Talk About Tex Baby on Jan 15, 2012 1:02 AM EST up reply actions
I have no idea what the new rule is honestly
I'll do whatever it takes to win games, whether it's sitting on a bench waving a towel, handing a cup of water to a teammate, or hitting the game-winning shot.- Kobe Bryant
A.J. Burnett's only fan!
We. Always. Need. Pitching.
Always. This fucking narrative comes up every cockfucking year. Everyone was worried that last year since they didn’t sign Lee that they wouldn’t make it. Burnett sucked more in 2010, we didn’t know if Nova would be successful, and did anyone expect Garcia to actually do as well as he did. You’re spouting the exact same narrative from last year’s offseason and guess what? THEY DID FINE. CC & Hughes were the only two “locks” in our rotation last year, and Hughes didn’t deliver.
They were technically in a better position this year with pitching than they were last year, with CC locked up, with Nova looking solid enough to be a #2, considering that he was our #2 in the playoffs. AJ is gonna AJ and if the Yankees truly feel like he’s a hindrance they’ll eat the contract and move on cause that’s what they can do cause they’re the Yankees. To replace Colon they could’ve signed a decent enough pitching to help them out for a year…..which they did. Clearly they still see something in Garcia, otherwise he wouldn’t have been resigned.
You spout the same scared little kitty kat narrative that I heard last year, when I was perfectly fine going into 2011 with what we had because even though they make a stupid decision here and there regarding prospects & money, they wind up making the playoffs because the organization is 100% built to make the playoffs every single year. They didn’t get Lee, so they went with their backup plans. If that didn’t work out at first, they’ll have other backup plans. I was perfectly comfortable going into the 2011 season, heck even a little excited due to the fact that lo and behold, we were not the favorites anymore so it actually gave us the chance to put the Cock Sox in their fucking place. And guess what? I WAS RIGHT! So forgive me if I come off as an arrogant douchebag, but for all intents and purposes I am an arrogant douchebag ESPECIALLY when I wind up being right.
Like I asked, are you now comfortable? Are your worries about the 2012 season put at ease with this now? I certainly hope so, cause I don’t know how much better this team can get before people actually stop worrying about them EVER missing the playoffs.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 14, 2012 11:56 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Last time Yanks won a title, it was after they added two good pitchers to the rotation
Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.
by YankeesJets on Jan 15, 2012 12:42 AM EST up reply actions
And every year before that
They added or try to add on an ace or build a staff revolved around the concept of a #1/#2 starter and so on. Clemens to Mussina to Pavano to Johnson and so on and so forth. 2002-2008 was an ocean of a narrative that pitching wins championships and it didn’t win us shit, but rather it was un-clutch hitting and a lack of heart and will why we lost.
Haha, and are we talking about CC & AJ, because we all love how well AJ has turned out haven’t we?
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 15, 2012 2:42 AM EST up reply actions
That makes no sense
Bad signings doesn’t mean the philosophy behind the move was wrong. Pavano turned out to be a bust, Johnson was an old over the hill pitcher, but that doesn’t mean that going for a pitcher was the wrong move.
There were so many question marks going into this season before the trade. CC was the only starter that you could legitimately rely on. Nova will more than likely regress, Colon is gone, and nobody knows what to expect from Hughes and A.J. We were extremly fortunate to have decent starting pitching last year, and Cashman made sure we weren’t going to risk it again.
The Yankees’ offense was 2nd in the league last year with 886 runs scored. The Red Sox were first, but lo and behold, they didn’t make it to the postseason. You need a complete team to contend for a WS title, and the pitching was their missing link.
New York Knicks = Sleeping Giants
It actually makes plenty of sense
Going for a pitcher is not the wrong move, but the philosophy that “pitching wins championships” is 100% wrong and we saw evidence of it last year.
As I said before, there were so many question marks going into the previous season, and everything turned out fine because this team is built to get to the postseason every year. They do not work on the philosophy of “risk” or “luck” because that’s not a good business strategy.
And your final sentence is preciously my point. You need a complete team to make it, not just overwhelming pitching or hitting, and even if you have both the playoffs are still a crapshoot because any team can win a 5 games series.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 15, 2012 11:24 AM EST up reply actions
No, it's not wrong
Pitching is just as important as hitting, for both the regular season and the playoffs. “Pitching wins championships” isn’t true, you’re right about that. But pitching is still incredibly important. Two days ago the Yankees had a lot of question marks in that area, where as their hitting, with or without Jesus Montero will be one of the best offenses in baseball.
They decided to sacrifice a big time hitter to get what they felt would be a big time pitcher, for both now and the future. And they even got a guy who people believe will become an elite pitching prospect out of it. They didn’t do it because of “narrative” or because they believe that “pitching wins championships”. They did it because they felt it would improve their team and give them a bigger chance to win.
Yes, the playoffs are a crapshoot. But the goal is to give yourself the best chance possible to win and to try and put the strongest, most well rounded team on the field. Just because any team can win doesn’t mean you put a team just good enough to get in and hope for the best. Pitching was a question mark and hitting was very strong. Now, both pitching and the offense are very strong. They improved. And that should be the goal.
I'll do whatever it takes to win games, whether it's sitting on a bench waving a towel, handing a cup of water to a teammate, or hitting the game-winning shot.- Kobe Bryant
A.J. Burnett's only fan!
It's amazing how many times I have to explain this...
I never said pitching is not incredibly important. It is. However, in our world pitching is touted as the MOST important thing when it’s been proven time and time again, especially last year, that it is not THE most important and yet somehow every year it’s a question mark. EVERY. FUCKING. YEAR. Until they do something like this. Like I stated up above, when our top pitching prospects are indeed ready to come up, pitching will STILL be the #1 concern. I’d bet money on it.
Yes, they did, and I’ve stated my reasons for why I think they did. Several times in this thread, actually Whether or not you think I’m right or wrong is irrelevant, but know full well that nothing you or anyone says to the contrary is going to convince that I’m wrong, because I’ve seen how this team operates and what matters most to them. Talent had more to do with the trade than age & the future because the Yankees don’t have to worry about the future like the other average Baltic Ave. teams of the league. They’re Boardwalk. They will ALWAYS be fine whether they got a young talented pitching under team control for a few years or they got a rental of Lee. THEY. WILL. ALWAYS. BE. FINE.
YES, the goal is to give yourself the best chance possible to win. The Yankees do that. The fans feel that last year, the team was only “good enough” and that it was just luck cause there wasn’t a huge Lee signing or big pitching splash to address the ???‘s last year and don’t ever consider the fact that the Yankees know EXACTLY what the fuck they are doing after seeing their team get to the playoffs almost every year since ‘95. The Yankees for the past 16-17 years have put a championship caliber team on the field and still people are not satisfied. They still want more. They are never comfortable. NEVER. There are always questions marks and after 16-17 years of consistently making the playoffs they STILL worry that this team won’t make it. The Yankees improve, they achieve the goal of making it to the playoffs and it’s STILL NOT ENOUGH and it never will be and THAT is why I hate our fucking spoiled rotten dumbass unsatisfiable fanbase.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 15, 2012 2:01 PM EST up reply actions
No, it is very important
Obviously, having crappy hitting won’t get you anywhere, but having shutdown pitchers is, in my opinion, more important, especially in a 7 game series, than having an amazing line-up. For every great Phillies team with a great rotation proving your point, you have a Giants like team that wins the World Series with a very good pitching staff. You conveniently ignore that.
And it was a huge question mark last season. No doubt they did their homework on Colon and Garcia and took a calculated risk, but it was a much, much bigger risk than the one they’re taking going into next season. Don’t tell me you honestly think Cashman and co. went into the season fully confident in the rotation. It’s much more probable that they will do well in that area this season, there’s no disproving that.
And really, with that last paragraph? Fucking spoiled rotten dumbass unsatisfiable fanbase? Each and every one of those adjectives? Maybe the fact that the Yankees have such a huge revenue stream means that they should be a great team as well. They’ve made some dumb decisions in the past, and the fans have a right to be critical of those decisions. Complacency in a fanbase is something you’re never going to find, so keep getting pissed of at that aspect of the Yankees.
New York Knicks = Sleeping Giants
Sigh...
And once again, since clearly I’m not fucking getting through to people, I never said pitching isn’t important. Also, I didn’t ignore the Giants success, but if you want to get into it, once again it goes towards the main point that THE PLAYOFFS ARE A CRAPSHOOT. Run that same exact playoff matchup the same way another year and there will be different results every single time.
There’s always a risk. It’s baseball. But the sheer idiocy that people think that Cashman & co. go into the season with “well maybe we’ll get lucky” in their minds is absolutely naive & insane considering everything the Yankees have done the past decade +. Like I stated, pitching is somehow always a concern with this team. It’ll be a concern next year, unless they not only win it all but dominate like they did from 98-00’. The Yankees are a business structure fully designed NOT to fail to get to the playoffs. Judging by the quite insane amount of recent past success they had in getting to the playoffs, they are clearly doing something right regardless of the question marks or bad decisions.
And I meant every goddamn word I said. The majority of frontrunning Dynasty-cock-sucking Yankees fans are fucking spoiled rotten dumbass unsatisfiable fans and I knew it was going to happen after what the Yankees did in 98 and especially after the 3 in a row WS championships, almost 4. Nothing is ever good enough for them. The Yankees make stupid decisions just like any other team does but the HUGE HUUUUUUUUUGE difference is that the Yankees can afford to eat those mistakes. Kei Igawa’s contract would seriously hamper the majority of other teams out there, whereas we can pay him a stupid amount of money to pitch in the minors. We are one of the few teams that can actually do that. People are already talking about how with this trade, the Yankees can afford to possibly trade AJ & 80% of his contract just so he’s not pitching for us. Again, paying him NOT to pitch for us. We are one of the few teams that can actually do that and the fact that it’s actually a consideration show precisely why a huge majority of Yankee fans are spoiled rotten and it’s the reason why other fanbases hate us so very very much. Hey, if you wanna say “Screw everyone, we’ve got money & ringz, bitches!” that’s always an option. The Yankees don’t make business deals based on that nor should they. it still doesn’t change the fact they we are 100% spoiled by our success. We argue about who’s going to be our 5th starter. Our. 5th. Starter. That’s all that needs to be said.
The intelligent Yankees fans are critical of the dumb decisions they’ve made in the past. The FSRDU fans are critical of EVERY decision that doesn’t result in a World Series victory. They don’t hate the Soriano deal because of the money and years involved in the deal. They were perfectly fine with it when it happened and only criticize it or praise it when the WFAN talking heads tell them why it’s bad or good and then they get critical and stupid when they see that said decisions do not result in a World Series victory. I find complacency with the intelligent Yankees fans, IE. the majority of the people on Pinstripe Alley. Everyone else? Fuck em’
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 15, 2012 2:38 PM EST up reply actions
Fuck Yankees Fans
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 15, 2012 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
As have I
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 15, 2012 3:30 PM EST up reply actions
Welp
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
Count me in for the PSA meetup for sure!
The above comment is not affiliated with the San Francisco Giants, is not based on a secret source of team information, and may contain personal opinion.
"I'll never forget San Francisco and all those beautiful moments."- Andres Torres
by natteringnabob on Jan 20, 2012 8:53 PM EST up reply actions
“But the sheer idiocy that people think that Cashman & co. go into the season with "well maybe we’ll get lucky" in their minds is absolutely naive & insane considering everything the Yankees have done the past decade”
They gambled on Colon and Garcia. For those two, yes, the front office probably did say “Maybe we’ll get lucky.”
by bloppy_ploppy on Jan 15, 2012 3:52 PM EST up reply actions
Gambling is for chumps
You don’t get to where the Yankees have gotten by gambling. Is that so hard to understand?
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 15, 2012 4:00 PM EST up reply actions
Gambling is for chumps?
You think everything the Yankees do they are 100% certain will work out? You think they knew Colon and Garcia would pitch 311 innings combined and that Colon would be the second best pitcher for half the year? Drafting is a form of gambling. You bet, say, the 14th draft pick overall that Draftee #14 will do well. The Yankees have had success because they make smart bets, and more often than not, those bets have worked out. Business, which includes sports, is all about risk-taking and gambling. Is that so hard to understand?
by bloppy_ploppy on Jan 15, 2012 4:11 PM EST up reply actions
HAHAHAHAHA
If you really think that, then you have no idea why and how business works and why some businesses are successful and some fail. The Yankees do NOT gamble. They may take risks, but all those risks are calculated and within their means. They wanted Lee. They didn’t get him, so they went with their backup plan. Nothing is 100% certain, however the point is that this was planned. It was not a “gamble” and if they didn’t work out they have backup plans just in case. When they draft, they take a look at all the factors they need and make a calculated decision based on that. If they gambled, they’d just pick a name out of a hat and hope it works out.
This is why they are so successful, because they know exactly what the fuck they are doing. They are one of the most successful businesses in the goddamn country, possibly the world. You’d think 16-17 years of making it to the postseason should have proven that to people by now. Clearly it hasn’t.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 15, 2012 4:30 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe you should look up the words gamble and risk
Gamble – Take risky action in the hope of a desired result
Risk – Incur the chance of unfortunate consequences by engaging in (an action)
Gambling is not just closing your eyes and throwing a dart at a dartboard. You’re basically saying what I’m saying when you say the Yankees take calculated risks. That’s actually, believe it or not, what “The Yankees have had success because they make smart bets” means.
Just because the Yankees plan their gambles doesn’t make it not a gamble. When you gamble in poker, do you just throw whatever number of chips fits in your hand and bet that amount? No, you look at your hand, see what your chances are, and gamble that amount.
So the Yankees are successful because they make smart bets and take risks when they should. They do know exactly what they are doing, I agree. But they’re not omniscient fortune tellers who know which players will pan out and who won’t. So for that, they have to gamble on which players will work out.
But come back later when you look up those words.
by bloppy_ploppy on Jan 15, 2012 7:50 PM EST up reply actions
Hi teacher. I'm back! I've finished my homework.
GAMBLE
intransitive verb
1
a : to play a game for money or property
b : to bet on an uncertain outcome
2
: to stake something on a contingency : take a chance
transitive verb
1
: to risk by gambling : wager
2
: venture, hazard
RISK
1
: possibility of loss or injury : peril
2
: someone or something that creates or suggests a hazard
3
a : the chance of loss or the perils to the subject matter of an insurance contract; also : the degree of probability of such loss
b : a person or thing that is a specified hazard to an insurer
c : an insurance hazard from a specified cause or source
4
: the chance that an investment (as a stock or commodity) will lose value
Well what do you know? The words have multiple meanings. Amazing what these dictionaries will come up with! In regards to this…
You’re basically saying what I’m saying when you say the Yankees take calculated risks.
Here’s the funny thing about that. That’s not what you said. Your exact words were…
They gambled on Colon and Garcia. For those two, yes, the front office probably did say "Maybe we’ll get lucky."
which says absolutely nothing about calculated risk being that luck is not calculated. Luck is the X Factor, it’s what you plan for when your plan changes and the Yankees do not deal in chance. Other teams do because they have no choice. The Yankees always have options available to them.
Just because the Yankees plan their gambles doesn’t make it not a gamble. When you gamble in poker, do you just throw whatever number of chips fits in your hand and bet that amount? No, you look at your hand, see what your chances are, and gamble that amount.
HAHAHAHAHAHA! Holy shit, can we play some poker sometime? PLEASE? Cause I guarantee I will walk away with your money. That is absolutely NOT how you play poker. That attitude is how skilled poker players clean chumps out of their money. Skilled poker players are experts at reading people, at knowing not just their own strengths and weaknesses but the people they are playing against as well. They judge what someone is thinking while giving nothing back in return, hence the term “poker face.” The Yankees organization have fantastic poker skills, as was proven last year and this year as well. They knew they didn’t have a pair of aces when they missed out on Cliff Lee, so they won with an Ace, a Jack, a Joker, and a pair of 7’s. This year, you think they are going in with nothing more than 2 of a kind and boom, they pull out the full house. These are the kind of skills which continue to get them to the postseason, to the big table and help them continue to earn the big bucks and beat the other, lesser players at the table. They do not predict the future, but rather they do everything in their power to alter its outcome to their favor. Once they are at the big table, the rest is up to chance. Their cards are on the table, but at that point the outcome is more or less out of their hands due to the circumstances. But they always get back to the big table, just like the most skilled of poker player.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 15, 2012 8:51 PM EST up reply actions
Very insightful, maybe an A.
What’s important to withdraw from this assignment is that gambling is very similar to risk taking, which
The Yankees do NOT gamble. They may take risks,
suggests the opposite.
They gambled on Colon and Garcia. For those two, yes, the front office probably did say “Maybe we’ll get lucky.”
How is that not calculated risk? As you said, risk is
the chance of loss or the perils to the subject matter of an insurance contract; also : the degree of probability of such loss
The Yankees signed those two knowing there was a chance of failure. That offseason, they needed pitching. They couldn’t have gone into the next season without some help. So they did “everything in their power to alter [the next season’s] outcome to their favor” by signing Colon and Garcia. Once they did that, “the rest is up to chance.” Let’s not forget that chance is a synonym of luck.
And let’s not completely gloss over the fact that the hand you have is important. Put on the best poker face you have, and I’m still going to beat you if you have a 2, 5, 7, 9 and a Jack. I’ll take a good hand over poker face skills. The Yankees don’t pull off any trade if they don’t have Montero or Noesi already in their “hand.”
by bloppy_ploppy on Jan 15, 2012 9:34 PM EST up reply actions
I usually do get an A
Gambling is similar to risk-taking, but it is not totally the same thing. The gambling you described when you said…
They gambled on Colon and Garcia. For those two, yes, the front office probably did say "Maybe we’ll get lucky."
is different from calculated risk. As you quoted…
the chance of loss or the perils to the subject matter of an insurance contract; also : the degree of probability of such loss
the key words to take out of this are probability, chance, and the word you used in your statement; “lucky” or more importantly luck. Luck is unpredictability and does not have a true mathematical philosophy behind it, even though it’s still being sought out. It’s more chaos theory. Risk, especially calculated risk still deals with probability, like the definition of the word suggest as you quoted. Chance also fails in line with predictability. For example, there are mathematical equations that can tell you what your chances are to roll dice correctly, or to get the card you need in poker. Colon & Garcia were calculated risks and had nothing to do with luck, because they do not build a team based on luck. They do not trade Montero for Pineda and hope they get “lucky” with him.
And let’s not completely gloss over the fact that the hand you have is important. Put on the best poker face you have, and I’m still going to beat you if you have a 2, 5, 7, 9 and a Jack. I’ll take a good hand over poker face skills. The Yankees don’t pull off any trade if they don’t have Montero or Noesi already in their "hand."
Again, I’d REALLY love to play you in poker. The point of a poker face is so the opponent does not know you have a 2, 5, 7, 9 and a Jack. If you can make someone think you have a better hand and they fold/don’t risk their better hand because they think you are dealin’ in Aces, then you will indeed losing. It’s called bluffing. It’s also called skilled poker playing.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 15, 2012 9:58 PM EST up reply actions
How is luck not related to math?
Say we use your dice example. Let’s pretend we’re trying to roll a 6. yes, “mathematical equations” tells us there is a 1/6 chance of success. There is a 5/6 of failure. But what determines whether we will actually roll a 6? Chance, or luck, whichever you prefer. Luck is unpredictable, but you can calculate likelihoods of events using probability related mathematics. I don’t know if I will be lucky enough to roll a 6 and land on free parking, but I know that I have ok odds of doing so.
Colon & Garcia were calculated risks and had nothing to do with luck,
Really? Well, it’s a fact that these two signings were not a 100% certainty. Since that fact is not debatable, what would you say determines whether the signings work out or not? Every team relies on luck in some way or another, it’s just whether a team manages to create better odds for themselves that separates them from the rest. The Yankees, through those signings, maybe had a 60/40 chance of getting 300 innings out of both of them. They felt the signings gave them the best odds of getting 300 quality innings. They could have called two pitchers up from AAA. Maybe there were 50/50 odds that those two would pitch 300 innings. But that’s not as good as 60/40 odds, so they went with signing Colon and Garcia.
Like you said, the Yankees always have options available to them. Another team with less resources might have had to call up two minor leaguers, giving them worse odds than the Yankees to get 300 innings. So the Yankees maximized their odds. But what determines whether the signings succeed or fail? The Yankees can’t just make Colon pitch well and stay in one piece. Luck is what makes a deal succeed or fail. The Yankees put themselves in a position where it was more likely to succeed than to fail, but there is still a chance of failure.
When the Yankees signed CC, they probably gave themselves 80/20 odds of 7 full years of quality pitching. Those are good odds, which is why they made the deal in the first place. But whether CC stays healthy and doesn’t suddenly lose his touch in those 7 years is up to chance. The Yankees are more successful because they know what deals have the greatest chance of success and have the resources to pursue those deals.
As for poker, what I’m saying is that what your hand is more important than how you disguise it. A good amateur will probably beat a pro if the amateur knows he consistently gets better hands than the pro. Bluffing, while successful at times, isn’t going to work for long against better hands. I bet the Yankees are very good at bluffing, but they can play hardball because they also have a very good hand.
by bloppy_ploppy on Jan 16, 2012 3:20 PM EST up reply actions
Because Luck is unpredictability
And does not directly deal with probability. This all depends on how you use the definition and meaning of the word luck. What you seemingly view as luck I view more as chance & probability, ie. math. What I view as luck can be described as something outside of the realm of understanding which makes something work whether for good or bad. It’s more supernatural in belief, like faith, IE: some supernatural force like the “Baseball Gods” are shining down upon the Yankees and shunning the Mets. Like faith, I think it’s bullshit. What people think of as luck is more chance & probability, like you mentioned with the dice. Luck has nothing to do with you rolling a 6 or landing on free parking. There is a mathematical probability that you will do so and has nothing to do with some outside supernatural force.
Really? Well, it’s a fact that these two signings were not a 100% certainty. Since that fact is not debatable, what would you say determines whether the signings work out or not? Every team relies on luck in some way or another, it’s just whether a team manages to create better odds for themselves that separates them from the rest. The Yankees, through those signings, maybe had a 60/40 chance of getting 300 innings out of both of them. They felt the signings gave them the best odds of getting 300 quality innings. They could have called two pitchers up from AAA. Maybe there were 50/50 odds that those two would pitch 300 innings. But that’s not as good as 60/40 odds, so they went with signing Colon and Garcia.
It’s a fact that no signing has 100% certainty. In fact, until science proves otherwise, there’s really only one 100% certain thing in life, and that’s the fact that we die. Everything you just described here is probability, and not some kind of supernatural force that makes them succeed for us or not. 50/50 & 60/40 odds deal with probability, not luck. Wang getting injured in 08’, CC possibly getting injured on the team in the future, Colon & Garcia lasting as long as they did all have a mathematical equation to the outcome. There is no supernatural force that makes it happen or doesn’t make it happen. It just happens. That’s life. Life is math. Why do you think people don’t like math all that much and why they rely more on faith and the notion of luck? Because faith & luck are easier. Some teams do believe that if they “close their eyes and throw a dart at a dartboard.” it’ll work out for them. The Yankees are not one of those teams nor will the ever be. They don’t get to where they are right now by doing that. The reason they are in the position they are right now is because they don’t do that.
And as for poker, I’m saying you’re absolutely wrong. The most important thing in poker are the people you are playing against, not the cards. The most skilled of poker players are experts at reading people’s physical motions and what they might or might not be saying without uttering a word, at knowing what they are thinking, at knowing whether or not they have a good hand or are bluffing, and at knowing whether or not they know you have a good hand or are bluffing. A good amateur will not beat a pro if he relies on his cards more than his understanding of the person he’s playing against, because the pro will read him like a book a dictate what the amateur does with those cards. The Yankees are skilled not just because they have a very good hand and a lot of chips, but because they know who their opponents are. It’s why they want certain players who statistically do well against the Red Sox, and visa versa. They use their skills to get back to the big table, the postseason, and then pit their skills against the other pros who made it to the big table as well. At THAT point, then it becomes more about the cards than the skills because the skills or the players are pretty much even.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 16, 2012 4:48 PM EST up reply actions
I see the issue now
You view luck as a supernatural force. But luck is really just chance, which in turn is just probability and math.
Luck has nothing to do with you rolling a 6 or landing on free parking. There is a mathematical probability that you will do so and has nothing to do with some outside supernatural force.
Yes, there is a mathematical probability that those events will occur, but what exactly makes the events happen? The math itself doesn’t allow me to land on free parking, it’s chance. Actually, now we’re probably delving into stuff too deep. You believe, if I read this correctly, that mathematical probabilities are what cause things to happen. Correct me if that’s wrong. However, I believe that math only gives you the odds, while the inherent randomness of the universe actually makes events result in one result or another.
So when you talk about how Wang got injured and Colon and Garcia lasted as long as they did, it’s because you view luck as a supernatural force that just makes things happen, and you think that’s bullshit. I think that’s bullshit as well, because I view luck, or chance, as something inherent in our world.
And I think your last paragraph basically explains how both the hand and the way you play it matters.
by bloppy_ploppy on Jan 16, 2012 6:39 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, that's the issue
I separate luck & chance/probability, because I see luck as more faith than anything else.
Nothing really makes the events happen. It just happens. That’s just the way life works. Things happen and while the math doesn’t make those things happen, the math can predict that such an outcome is possible. LoL, to get into whether or not mathematical probability causes these things to happen is to possibly get on a whole level of math that I may agree with but cannot comprehend due to my limited ability per se. Like you said, it would be reaaaally delving deep into a process for all intents and purposes, we agree on. We just view the definition of the words and how people use them different. Such is human nature.
Pretty much, yeah.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 16, 2012 6:58 PM EST up reply actions
Colon & Garcia were calculated risks and had nothing to do with luck
It was absolute luck. They didn’t receive guaranteed contracts for a reason. And that they stayed healthy and far more successful than they have been in years? Come on, they stepped in shit with these two.
Contributing writer for Pinstripe Alley.
Follow me on Twitter @frankiecamp48
by Frank Campagnola on Jan 16, 2012 3:42 PM EST up reply actions
See above for the difference between luck & probability
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 16, 2012 4:49 PM EST up reply actions
This isn’t last year. Last year, the Yankees stepped in shit in getting over 5 WAR out of Freddy Garcia and Bartolo Colon combined. They were smart enough to realize the likelihood of getting over $25M of value out of scrap heap starters is probably not going to work very often.
How in the world were they in a better position going into 2012 than they were in 2011?
2011 projected rotation: CC (7 WAR), Hughes (3 WAR), Burnett (1.5 WAR), Nova (1.5 WAR) Garcia (1 WAR),
2012 projected rotation (prior to trade): CC (6.5 WAR), Nova (3 WAR), Garcia (2 WAR) Burnett (1 WAR), Hughes (1 WAR).
Those rotations look just as bad as the other, if not worse this year because there’s no Bartolo Colon waiting in the pen to take over if someone falters.
If you legitimately expected over 5 WAR out of Colon and Garcia, Crawford to suck, and the Red Sox pitching to collapse, then let me borrow your crystal ball because that’s amazing.
Anyway, wow they add a cost controlled potential ace (who was worth 3.4 WAR as a rookie) AND add an extremely high upside starter to a system that already included two high level pitching prospects.
I disagree that this is about narratives. This is about the Yankees addressing a weakness and turning it into a strength for the long term.
Contributing writer for Pinstripe Alley.
Follow me on Twitter @frankiecamp48
by Frank Campagnola on Jan 15, 2012 2:18 AM EST up reply actions
Sorry, I don't play the stats game
I go by what I see and I fully admit that. Most of the time, all stats tend to do is prove what just simply basic analysis shows me.
They were in a better position because there were a lot of cheap, decent options available that have been talked about on this site many a time in our somewhat boring (and pleasant to me) offseason, one of which we just bought. They were in a better position because dead weight like Posada would be gone making room for better hitters on the team like Montero, Jones, or maybe another bat. They were in a better position because with the bullpen healthier, you have three possibly MLB ready starters to fill the need either in the bullpen or in case of Hughes or Garcia faltering, and again I cannot stress enough that if the Yankees saw little to no value in Garcia, he wouldn’t be on the fucking team.
I expect nothing except for the Yankees to make the postseason because that’s what they do. It’s what they’ve done for the past 16-17 years and it’s what they will probably always do because the organization, through success and an intelligent business model, is built not to fail in getting us to the postseason, because that equals fans & money. I had no problems with Garcia and Colon because unlike you worry warts, I had a good fucking hunch that the Yankees would not sign them unless they saw something worthwhile in signing, although them resigning Sergio Mitre tends to question that theory, even though he’s just bullpen gutter trash. Crawford going to the Red Sox was one of the happiest days of last year’s offseason because they overpaid for him and he was being put into a left field where his stellar defense would mean Green Monster shit. And they STILL haven’t considered moving him to RF yet either. As for the Red Sox’s pitching to collaspe, that’s EXACTLY what I thought would happen. It’s why I didn’t have them as a lock for the World Series or even the AL East, cause everyone focused on their new shiny sextoy offense while completely ignoring the fact that they did absolutely nothing to fix their main problem of 2010, their pitching & pitching depth. Call it a crystal ball. I just tend to think of my massive crystal balls as simple logic & analysis based on what I see. And when I am right, I love to rub it in people’s faces like an arrogant NY douchebag. It’s most likely the wonderful combination of italian & black in me!
Haha, I thought I stressed this well enough in the actual fanpost, but allow me to restate it… The trade itself doesn’t bother me. It was a good trade to make. It’s the reasoning behind the trade, WHY they felt the need to do it that bothers me more than anything else. You talk about our two, now three, high level pitching prospects. Guess what? When they are ready to come up, can you guess what the Yankees #1 concern for the off season will be the year these highly touted, and HOPEFULLY well managed pitching prospects are ready? Here, I’ll spell it out for you…
P_TCH_NG I’ll understand if you need to buy a vowel.
You say the Yankees are learning. They aren’t learning shit because they don’t need to. The whole “Winning The WS” PR speech is what the fans want to hear and rightfully so, but the higher ups know it’s absolute bullshit. The only goal is to get to the postseason, because after the regular season anything is possible, like the Cards beating the Phillies unstoppable rotation. As long as they continue to get to the postseason, fans will keep going to the games because they crave a WS victory, and that’s the only thing that matters; money. As long as they continue to be in contention, fans will continue to spend money on the team. The big name stars they continue to get, the overspending on Posada & Jeter, all of it is a well organized and insanely genius business structure that continues to do the only thing that matters to the owners, get fans to spend money on the team. Baseball is a business and an extremely profitable one for teams like the Yankees. It’s about making money, and you only need see how Selig is going to fuck up the sport even more for that to be proven true.
So again, I will ask. Are you comfortable now? Now that the Yankees have “addressed a weakness and turned it into a strength,” is your mind now at ease? Huh? Is it? How much better does this team actually have to get before you and other people actually feel comfortable with this team, considering the Yankees have made it to the postseason on a consistent basis for the past 16-17 years? I mean, you do know that THIS is why other fans hate us, right? This is why we are considered the Evil Empire.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 15, 2012 3:22 AM EST up reply actions
If you’re not going to talk stats, which is what I based my entire response on, why bother with a novel of a response?
And yes, I am far more comfortable with the rotation right now than I was on Thursday. I don’t see what that’s a problem, though.
Contributing writer for Pinstripe Alley.
Follow me on Twitter @frankiecamp48
by Frank Campagnola on Jan 16, 2012 3:36 PM EST up reply actions
When have I ever talked stats? Huh?
Where in this fanpost did I ever mention the statistics behind why I personally disliked the idea behind this trade? Multiple multiple times on this website, I have mentioned that I am not a stat expert and that I basically just analyze what I see from players.
I gave a novel of a response due to the fact that you continue to ignore my points. You’re producing stats to give me a sense of why I should feel fine about the trade when I have said MUL. TI. FUCKING. PLE. times that the actual trade itself is not what bother me, but the narrative that we always, always need pitching, something that for me (which is why I said this was a personal feeling) really has nothing to do with statistics and more with the mindset of scared, spoiled Yankees fans. Fans like you looked at the players/stats behind them going into 2011/2012 with the rotation that they have and they get scared. I look at the fact that the Yankees have made the postseason almost every year for the past 16-17 years and I’m pretty much at a state of comfort cause I believe that they know what they’re doing. That’s why I asked the question…
How much better does this team actually have to get before you and other people actually feel comfortable with this team, considering the Yankees have made it to the postseason on a consistent basis for the past 16-17 years?
…a question you still have not answered I might add.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 16, 2012 5:10 PM EST up reply actions
I can’t not use stats because you don’t use them. It’s the best way for me to be objective.
Also:
I look at the fact that the Yankees have made the postseason almost every year for the past 16-17 years and I’m pretty much at a state of comfort cause I believe that they know what they’re doing.
So if you believe they know what they’re doing, then you believe that the Yankees didn’t do this for some made up narrative and you believe the Yankees did it because they perceived the rotation as a weak spot.
And yes, I am far more comfortable with this team now. Again, why is that a bad thing? The rotation was bad Thursday night. It’s really good now.
I’m not asking for the Yankees to build a super team and win 130 games. They did something entirely reasonable that many other teams do.
Contributing writer for Pinstripe Alley.
Follow me on Twitter @frankiecamp48
by Frank Campagnola on Jan 16, 2012 6:26 PM EST up reply actions
The difference with this...
So if you believe they know what they’re doing, then you believe that the Yankees didn’t do this for some made up narrative and you believe the Yankees did it because they perceived the rotation as a weak spot.
Is that I believe the Yankees would’ve made it whether they made this trade or not, due to all the pieces they already had and the ones that were still available to them. With that belief, what this trade does is exactly answer the narrative I believe they did this for, the one that states that “pitching wins championships!” This trade will appease the fans that think that if they did not add (insert high quality pitcher here) they would not make the playoffs, much less win it. To further this philosophy on a business appeasing customers, see my response to lolol on the business aspect of the game that many people ignore/don’t think about.
Why I think it’s a bad thing is because you, for some reason, were not comfortable with this team before. We’re discussing problems and issues other teams & fans would dream to have. People are not content unless they are not only the best, but perceived by others as the best, and it’s that spoiled attitude which, as a baseball fan, I personally dislike, the idea that it can never be enough. While you might not be asking for the Yankees to build a super team and win 130 games, the majority of our fanbase is.
The fact that this trade is actually reasonable, unlike the Lee/Montero trade a while ago, is why I’m not upset at the actual trade. However the mindset of why they wanted to do the Lee/Montero trade is the EXACT same mindset as to why they did this trade, to appease the customers that think that “pitching wins championships.” When I say the Yankees know what they’re doing every year, it deals with everything from both making it to the postseason as well as appeasing the moronic fanbase who keep the spice flowing. Like I’ve said, it’s a flawless business structure and the reason why they are in the position they have been for the past 16-17 years. The ultimate truth as to why I dislike the trade is because I fucking hate our fanbase that needs appeasing.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 16, 2012 7:19 PM EST up reply actions
I wasn’t comfortable with it because there was little to no upside after CC Sabathia and, like Duggan said in his “Thoughts” article, and like I said above, expecting some magic out of a combination of Garcia/rookie/scrap heap starter again is crazy. With an aging offensive core and a very difficult division, I wasn’t so sure the Yankees had the in-house pieces to make the playoffs this year.
Where we disagree is that you think this was simply a business move, whereas I think this was the Yankees moving Montero at the peak of his value to address a team need.
I don’t mean to ignore the business aspect of it, because it is great PR and the ability to have the papers write that the Yankees got their number 2 will sell tickets, without a doubt.
However, having that successful, young, hard-throwing number two to slot in behind CC is another great way to sell tickets. If Pineda is as good as he is capable of being, his value on the ball field will sell as many tickets as his headlines in the paper.
Contributing writer for Pinstripe Alley.
Follow me on Twitter @frankiecamp48
by Frank Campagnola on Jan 16, 2012 9:44 PM EST up reply actions
I'm a crazy thinker
Cause I was honestly fine with our rotation the way it is. I don’t think the Yankees would’ve resigned Garcia if they didn’t still see something they liked with him. If they didn’t, they would’ve sent him packing nuzzled comfortably in Colon’s gut. Nova showed a lot of promise last year and he’s no longer a rookie, so I don’t really believe he’ll regress. If anything, he showed me he can continue to improve after he came back from AAA. He could very well be a “#2 starter” since he pretty much was in the playoffs. I don’t believe Hughes was going to be as horrendous as he was last year, especially in the beginning. Quite frankly, I was going to put money (and fantasy team stock) in him having a comeback year. As for AJ, yeah he’s AJ. Before the trade, the Yankees had quite a few options to come out of AAA for either bullpen work or starter work in case Hughes or Garcia faltered. I also felt that there were many other cheap, 1 year deal good pitching that could be acquired, like Kuroda, which would not cost us anything but money. Kuroda was obviously in the Yankees plans for the year, as evident by the fact that they signed him, so logically before the trade was made they were going to be set for the season with 5-6 starters as well as AAA depth, like Noesi, to help if need be.
I do not think it was simply a business move, but I do believe that business had a huge huge role to do with it. If the Yankees had just simply picked up Kuroda, there would still be that feeling of uncomfortableness because the talking heads/ignorant fanbase would still have to worry about AJ & Hughes, not to mention talk about Kuroda’s age, whether or not he’d be good enough to get them to the postseason, and so on. You watch the talking heads & ESPeNis stuff, so you know exactly what that sounds like. Now that the deal is done, we’re already talking about dumping AJ and trading/to teh penning Hughes. Now there is that sense of comfort and we’ve moved on to DH discussions.
The key thing to remember about the business aspect of it is that it is not just about selling tickets, but more importantly providing good customer service. Remember: the customer is always right, even though anyone who works in customer service knows that 90-95% of the time that is bullshit! The customer believes that the Yankees needed a “#2 Starter” and that gets beaten into their heads by their 3rd party friends, the media. Kuroda alone would not have satisfied that need. It would not have provided a “splash” or given the customer enough of a feeling that their client is trying to make them happy. Judging by the general reaction to this trade, look what they’ve accomplished story wise:
-Yankees are now the team to beat in the AL East
-Red Sox have to talk about how they’re not worried, even though their fanbase is
-Yankees now have a legitimate #2 who will possibly become an ACE
-How this trade stacks up against other trades this offseason
Notice how these stories are being talked about more than the actual trade itself? Notice how the narrative is being discussed more than the stats or the upside? Notice how the sense of superiority over the Red Sox/rest of the AL East is the most important factor in this, rather than Pineda himself? This is my point throughout all of this. This is what this trade accomplishes more than actually getting us back to the postseason. It provides good customer service and gives the customer the sense that the Yankees are going out of their way to make them happy and address their demands.
Think about it this way… If they could feasibly afford him, and if he agreed to it, they would totally sign Prince Fielder to be a DH to address that problem if it were perceived by the fanbase as a “serious” problem.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 16, 2012 10:28 PM EST up reply actions
You admitted you are crazy
Your argument is now invalid. Sorry!
by bloppy_ploppy on Jan 16, 2012 10:52 PM EST up reply actions
The Joker is a crazy thinker
Doesn’t make him any less of a genius!
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 16, 2012 10:54 PM EST up reply actions
Zach Greinke is crazy. He’s a bad pitcher. Your argument has been refuted!
by bloppy_ploppy on Jan 18, 2012 5:02 PM EST up reply actions
Batman is crazy.
He’s Batman. I win!
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 18, 2012 5:51 PM EST up reply actions
One thing:
You cite game 5 of the ALDS as an example of our pitching depth. But that was our bullpen, not our pitching depth. What people are talking about when they say pitching depth is starting pitching.
after thinking it over for 24 hours, here's why I don't like the trade
I think we gave up the guy most likely to reach his ceiling. And that ceiling was pretty high.
by long time listener on Jan 14, 2012 11:04 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
So a big 23-year old power righty who could be a #1 doesn’t have as high a ceiling? Of course Montero has a high ceiling as well, but let’s not sell Pineda short.
"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth
I think Pineda has a high ceiling as well
But I think he’s much less likely to reach his.
by long time listener on Jan 14, 2012 11:24 PM EST up reply actions
Why is that?
"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth
too many things can go wrong
His ceiling is No. 1 starter, but not too many guys reach that level. And even those who do don’t always maintain it. Plus, let’s face it, the Yankees don’t have a recent history of developing young arms. Pineda comes more or less pre-developed – there won’t be the innings build-up that has bedeviled the Yankees in the past. But I worry that he’s going to run into arm trouble, or not make it to the next level, or god knows what. And I think Montero is going to be a great hitter, and it seems like there are fewer variables in developing hitters. I can’t point to anything to back this up, it’s just a feeling that I have.
by long time listener on Jan 14, 2012 11:32 PM EST up reply actions
You can make that same argument with Montero
His ceiling is No. 1 starterpower-hitting catcher, but not too many guys reach that level.
"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth
I just think there are more variables in developing a pitcher
by long time listener on Jan 14, 2012 11:36 PM EST up reply actions
Montero himself is full of question marks.
There are concerns over his size and durability behind the plate. His defense has always been criticized. Montero’s position itself is in question which will affect how much value he brings. If he a catcher he’ll have good value, if he;s a DH/1B, a ton of his value get flushed. At least with Pineda they know where his future is at and have a vision for it. Montero wise,i don’t think the FO was fully sold on where he belonged.
For example last year only 1 DH was able to post a WAR over 4…which was oritz who had a monster wRC+ of 153.
Mike Napoli split time at C/DH/1B and got close to 6 WAR despite only getting 432 PA. That’s what I think Montero in his prime is.
Based on last season, i'd argue Pineda has a better chance right now
Assuming from a purely pitching and talent stand point and ignoring possible injuries
If you want to feel a little better, OTM has their own version of Hanzus, apparently.
Jesus Montero fangirl
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Jan 14, 2012 11:15 PM EST reply actions
I feel fine
Again, I know what organization I root for. This is not shocking in any way, although I take joy in the fact that the Sox fans are probably a bit more worried now.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 14, 2012 11:58 PM EST up reply actions
Iunno, he survived a ton of trade talks
It’s like in a horror movie where the Hero is able to avoid getting killed in every possible way. Then in the last minute the twist hits and it’s like “GOTCHA”!
Did you see my fanshot
of Girardi discussing Montero’s future? Very telling. In it, he says “if he’s here…”
Romine!
Disagree
Most teams that win championships have very good-to-great pitching. The vast majority of championship teams had a better rotation than the ’11 Yankees.
The Yankees had good pitching in the regular season last year. Colon and Garcia are gone/due to regress. AJ and Hughes were awful. Then your #2 that was never a big prospect has enormous expectations that he probably won’t fulfill.
by Now Batting on Jan 15, 2012 11:53 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Good to Great Pitching is all we really need. That's my point
What people want or expect are a rotation of aces, which the Phillies had last year. Most teams that win championships have a well balanced team and even with that, anyone can win a 5 game series. Anyone.
The Yankees had good pitching all year long, both regular season and in the postseason. Colon is gone and Garcia is still here, so clearly they think Colon had nothing left to offer and Garcia still does or else he wouldn’t be here. With this new signing/trade, will see what happens to AJ & Hughes.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 15, 2012 12:09 PM EST up reply actions
They had good pitching because of unexpected success of Garcia and Colon
If they actually pitched to expectations, then their season probably would have ended when AJ shitted his pants in August. But they exceeded expectations all year and were key to getting the Yankees to 97 wins. It was great, but just because it happens doesn’t mean you can expect it again. It’s still a question mark, this team still needed pitching, and they still should try to improve it.
As for AJ and Hughes now, right now I think AJ is in the rotation and Hughes and Garcia are in the bullpen. But AJ and Hughes both could be moved, Garcia could be cut, etc. Anything could happen, so we’ll see. I’m rooting for AJ!!!!
I'll do whatever it takes to win games, whether it's sitting on a bench waving a towel, handing a cup of water to a teammate, or hitting the game-winning shot.- Kobe Bryant
A.J. Burnett's only fan!
Let me ask you a couple questions
Ignoring the narrative idea completely… Would you have made this trade, do you think the deal is fair, and do you think it improves the Yankees chances of winning a world series?
I'll do whatever it takes to win games, whether it's sitting on a bench waving a towel, handing a cup of water to a teammate, or hitting the game-winning shot.- Kobe Bryant
A.J. Burnett's only fan!
I love how I get asked question and yet mine still go unanswered, but sure...
Would I personally have made this trade?
Honestly, probably not. With the pitching depth I felt we already had and with other options out there that we’ve discussed this offseason, I personally feel that the trade was not worth losing a very young top hitting prospect who for all intents and purposes should be behind the plate next year.
Do I think the deal is fair?
Absolutely. I’ve stated countless, COUNTLESS time that the actual trade itself is not what bothers me and that I think it’s a pretty good trade. Pineda has a tremendous amount of positives, they got a young pitching prospect (and I’m ignoring how we tend to treat young pitching prospects lately) and the Mariners get a MLB starter & the most promising hitting prospect in the majors this year, and the Mariners do need hitting.
Do I think it improves the Yankees chances of winning a World Series?
No. i fully believe the playoffs are a crapshoot. Like I’ve said, anyone can win a 5 or 7 game series. Anyone. All it takes is an offensive slump or two of your star pitchers to have a bad game and boom, you’re out. That’s all there is to it. That’s what makes the playoffs and baseball fun to me.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 15, 2012 2:14 PM EST up reply actions
OK thats fair
I may not have done the trade either, but I’m glad I wasn’t the one making the decision because it would be an incredibly tough call. Putting my feelings for Montero aside this is an incredibly fair deal with a lot of positives to it. I especially love that Campos was thrown in. I would have been fine with just Kuroda though and going for Hamels next year, or maybe going after Yu Darvish!!! But that ship sailed. Cashman wanted more than just a one year solution for the rotation, so it’s understandable why they did this.
The big thing I disagree with you on is the playoffs. Yes, they are a crapshoot. Anyone can win at any time. But by that logic, should any playoff team just not bother taking risks with trades or spending money? That just doesn’t make sense. I think that just because they can be a crapshoot doesn’t mean that a team shouldn’t try to build a better team. They’re a crapshoot, but I’d still rather my favorite team be the best team in the playoffs with home field advantage rather than the wild card team that got in with 80 wins (thanks Selig). Thats an exaggeration as I don’t expect the Yankees would have won only 80 games no matter what they did, but thats not the point.
I think you believe the playoffs are too random. Any team can win, but I’d still rather have a better, well rounded team because I think it gives them a better chance. They’re a better team right now than they were two days ago, so i think due to that they have a better chance to win.
You’re entitled to your opinion though, and I applaud you for being so enthusiastic or passionate or whatever word you want to use about it. And your excessive cursing is hilarious.
I'll do whatever it takes to win games, whether it's sitting on a bench waving a towel, handing a cup of water to a teammate, or hitting the game-winning shot.- Kobe Bryant
A.J. Burnett's only fan!
The big thing I disagree with you on is the playoffs. Yes, they are a crapshoot. Anyone can win at any time. But by that logic, should any playoff team just not bother taking risks with trades or spending money? That just doesn’t make sense. I think that just because they can be a crapshoot doesn’t mean that a team shouldn’t try to build a better team. They’re a crapshoot, but I’d still rather my favorite team be the best team in the playoffs with home field advantage rather than the wild card team that got in with 80 wins (thanks Selig). Thats an exaggeration as I don’t expect the Yankees would have won only 80 games no matter what they did, but thats not the point.
You see, that’s my point. The point is not that they shouldn’t improve by taking risks but rather that the Yankees do NOT take risks or rely on luck. Pretty much everything is calculated in terms of money, making money, and results. Everyone sees Colon & Garcia as a risk last year because they didn’t get Lee. I think they knew what they were doing all along, judging by the past 16-17 years of making it to the playoffs. You always strive for your team to be the best on the field during the regular season & in the playoffs and hopefully win. That’s always the goal, but there’s only so much you can do with the available options given to you. What pisses me off personally is that no matter what the Yankees do it’s never enough for people, even when what they do winds up being successful in getting us to the postseason for a long long time now.
And since I’m an ass, the word I tend to use is that I’m an Enthusiasdick!
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 15, 2012 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
Oh dear this thread
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
The second I saw this trade, I knew PSA would explode. One of the best weeks in site history.
Also, yknow how the original report was “Mariners trade for young hitter?” My guess to Frank was Seth Smith…lol
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
What's really funny is how many times I've had to explain my position on the subject
And ONLY my position, especially after the countless times I said that it’s not a bad trade. Yet somehow I’ve gotten a lot of explanations why this was a good trade for the Yankees.
Perhaps I need more bolded, possibly italicized profanity when I explain my position on something
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 15, 2012 2:54 PM EST up reply actions
Just don’t say anything I have to warn you for please!
If they don’t understand, I guess just give up on them.
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
Oh I will
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 15, 2012 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
Mine was immediately Montero.
Jesus Montero fangirl
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Jan 15, 2012 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
It was funny
I was driving home and literally just got off the phone with my buddy in Minnesota after talking about Montero and his future and walked into the house. Not 60 seconds later I see he was traded and had to call my buddy back…at 1:30 in the morning.
Romine!
I knew they wouldn’t trade Felix and didn’t think of Pineda.
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
I didn’t even occur to me to think of who we’d be getting, I just knew Montero was gone. I never thought it would be Felix.
Jesus Montero fangirl
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Jan 15, 2012 4:27 PM EST up reply actions
I agree with you completely!
The Yankees needed another .300 hitter, and they had him in Montero for years to come!
Because he’s barely a .300 hitter in the minors.
by bloppy_ploppy on Jan 15, 2012 9:08 PM EST up reply actions
Well that's....not exactly why I disliked the trade...
But welcome aboard!
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 15, 2012 9:18 PM EST up reply actions
I aim to please!
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 15, 2012 9:01 PM EST up reply actions
No lie, the original Pineda/Montero trade thread might be the longest thread this site has ever had at over 1700.
"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth
Yeah, I was tempted to read through all of that when I got home
I stopped at about 950
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 15, 2012 9:24 PM EST up reply actions
Awesome post
The baseball world certainly does love their cliches and narratives. But I do have faith that Cashman keeps himself above such drivel when weighing trades such as this. I think he made the trade because they think Montero as a DH and sees DH production as being easily replaced.
It's really the past evidence of possible trades/signings
why I believe what I do about the narrative at hand.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 16, 2012 7:24 PM EST up reply actions
Great point, but I like the trade nonetheless
Phil Hughes struggled immensely last year, he can’t be counted on for this year. Nova was a rookie and sophomore slumps are very common. He can’t be counted on. Freddy Garcia is old and can’t be counted on. AJ is, well, AJ and absolutely cannot be counted on. That, before the trade, would’ve left us with just CC and after the Kuroda signing, Kuroda.
Thats 2 trustworthy pitchers. We need at least 4. Now we have 3 very, very good and trustworthy guys at the top of the rotation and 4 more to fill the last two spots. That is so much more relieving to me and puts me at ease that we won’t be worrying about starters anymore. Now, we can trade Hughes for a hitter. Or throw him in the bullpen. What we got here was a proven player for an unproven one, both with equal potential. Immediately, at least, that is only good for us.
After all of what has been said and done, I think the biggest reason behind this move is the complete lack of confidence in AJ Burnett.
Romine!
I actually agree with you two. It actually goes towards my point.
Fans do not have confidence in them or that they will ever turn it around. The intelligent fans can cite stats for why and offer actual, fact based reasoning & discussion for such. The fanbase I hate just go by what the talking heads say, and say that Hughes has no heart and all that jazz, so this move was done to alleviate their worries, so to speak.
I actually do have faith that Hughes will turn it around and AJ….. well we have Phelps, Warren, and even Garcia if they want to dump him and his contract. Like I said, the Yankees had multiple option both in house and cheap alternatives, and they can actually afford to dump AJ like a prom date once you graduate high school.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 16, 2012 7:50 PM EST up reply actions
AJ's not getting dumped
He may take a dump a few times a day, but unloading that contract is not possible unless they decide to pay nearly the entire thing. And I don’t think that would be smart, since any value he could bring to the team is more than what they’d get back for him, especially if they’re just paying him anyways.
I’d still be shocked if he’s not in the rotation, and I swear, thats not my crazy (and very lonely) confidence in AJ Burnett talking.
I'll do whatever it takes to win games, whether it's sitting on a bench waving a towel, handing a cup of water to a teammate, or hitting the game-winning shot.- Kobe Bryant
A.J. Burnett's only fan!
The point was that they can afford to dump him off on another team
Not that they will, but that they can. No matter how bad we might think AJ is, if the Yankees are willing to pay the majority of his contract someone will definitely take him. The other fact of the matter is that Garcia & Hughes also present a problem. Either one of them could be more valuable than AJ in the rotation. We’ll see what happens.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 17, 2012 4:31 PM EST up reply actions
It's actually really interesting to see what they do
If I had to guess, I’d say Hughes gets moved and Nova starts the year in AAA (however unfair it is. This is precisely why you don’t sign Freddy Garcia in November). But there’s a lot of possibilities.
I also really want to see Pineda pitch. He’s kind of like a young AJ in terms of stuff, except without the ridiculous control problems and inconsistency. I’m really excited about him.
I'll do whatever it takes to win games, whether it's sitting on a bench waving a towel, handing a cup of water to a teammate, or hitting the game-winning shot.- Kobe Bryant
A.J. Burnett's only fan!
I think AJ will be gone by opening day
Trading him doesn’t only save the amount of the contract the other team picks up, which won’t be much. It would also take him off the luxury tax books, so they’d save the luxury tax on the entire salary.
Since AJ’s no longer one of the Yankees 5 best starters, his value is absolute zero if you keep him. I think they’ll give him a chance to “showcase” whatever he has left in Spring Training, but ultimately they’ll pay 28 or 29 of the remaining 33 mil and send him somewhere.
by Let's Talk About Tex Baby on Jan 17, 2012 6:30 PM EST up reply actions
You think he has no chance at the rotation then?
I'll do whatever it takes to win games, whether it's sitting on a bench waving a towel, handing a cup of water to a teammate, or hitting the game-winning shot.- Kobe Bryant
A.J. Burnett's only fan!
If he's still here he's going to be in the rotation
It’s just it doesn;t make sense for him to still be here, since he’ll actually have negative value since he’ll be blocking someone better.
by Let's Talk About Tex Baby on Jan 17, 2012 10:13 PM EST up reply actions
I did not realize
that he would not count against the cap if he’s traded but they’re still paying his contract. That certainly makes such a move make more sense.
pitching wins championships
I have been a Yankee fan since the 50’s. Pitching does win championships. The pitcher, like the quarterback in football, has the greatest effect on the team. Every team has a #1 starter who usually has the best record winning anywhere from 15 to 20 games. Every team also has a #5 starter who loses anywhere from 15 to 20 games. The offense stays the same. The disparity in records is due to the quality of the pitcher. Good pitchers win more games than bad pitchers, no question. You can not convince me that any position player has more ability to affect a game as the pitcher. I think teams may consider the fan base in making decisions but they ultimately do what they think is best for the team. Yankee ownership makes changes because they want to put a winning team on the field not because the fan base demands they make those changes. If they did what the fans wanted they would have gone after Pujols, CJ Wilson and a host of others this season. I believe they know what they are doing so I wholeheartedly support the trade. Pineda is very good, young, under team control for years and cheap. Other teams gave up a lot more for pitchers of less quality and more cost.
by yankeefan4ever2 on Jan 17, 2012 10:05 AM EST reply actions
Teams win championships
Anyone can win a 5 game series nowadays, regardless of good pitching or hitting. It’s a crapshoot. The Phillies had one of the best rotations ever going into last season and still lost in 5 games. You’d think in 50 years of watching baseball you’d realize that baseball is a team sport and that every little thing affects the outcome. Yes, pitching is most certainly important, but our ignorant fanbase and the talking heads act like it is THE most important thing in the freaking world, when it is just one part of a complex puzzle. Even a quality quarterback cannot do jack shit if his receivers keep dropping his easily catchable passes.. Why did the Packers lose against the Giants on Sunday? Was it because Eli is a better quarterback than Rodgers, or was it because the Giants were a better team than Packers? If so, were the Giants/Eli a better team/quarterback all year, or just in that one game?
A pitcher can make a mistake, but the quality of hitter at the plate matters because that will determine if said hitter can capitalize on that mistake. There are good pitchers who struggle against certain good hitters. Pedro, in his prime, was a phenomenal pitcher, yet he always seemed to struggle against the Yankees from time to time. Mo is the greatest relief pitcher in history, and yet there are still certain hitters that do well against him. I’m not trying to convince you that a pitcher has more or less ability to affect the game. What I’m trying to convince people like you to understand is that pitching is not the be all end all of baseball and that TEAMS, not pitching, but TEAMS win championships.
And you, like so many others, are ignoring the business aspect of the game, which is the most important aspect of it whether you want to believe it or not. Allow me to break down your reasoning…
I think teams may consider the fan base in making decisions but they ultimately do what they think is best for the team.
What’s best for the team is making money. What makes money? Putting a winning team on the field every year. How do you put a winning team on the field every year? $$$$$$$$$$$$!!! And the cycle continues.
Yankee ownership makes changes because they want to put a winning team on the field not because the fan base demands they make those changes.
The fan base demands that they put a winning team on the field every year. When the Yankees don’t win the championship, the fans always ask why and lately & constantly, the answer has been, drum roll please……………………… lack of PITCHING. The Yankees have just gone out of their way to oblige them. In the past 50 years, I don’t know if you’ve worked in any kind of customer service field, but that’s what you call fantastic customer service.
If they did what the fans wanted they would have gone after Pujols, CJ Wilson and a host of others this season.
If Tex wasn’t at first base, they would’ve been ALL IN on Pujols. If they felt CJ Wilson was worth it, they would’ve been in on him too. If they could legitimately afford Prince Fielder, he’d be our DH. If they felt Yu Darvish was actually worth the money and wouldn’t make fans worry, they would’ve gone for him. This is what makes the Yankees intelligent business men and why they are one of the most successful businesses in the country/world right now. They address the customers’ needs intelligently and factor in cost, customer service, and the product they are putting on the field. They realize that the most important thing is getting to the postseason every year, because that’s what really keeps the fans coming back to buy their product. The Yankees know that no matter how good of pitching they have, no matter how good the offense is, anyone can win a 5 or 7 game series. So as long as they continue providing the customer both a fantastic product and more importantly good customer service, the Yankees will continue to make money which is the only important thing to a business.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 17, 2012 2:02 PM EST up reply actions
I swear to god
Most of your comments are longer than most of the writers articles. I applaud you though. Not one F-Bomb in this entire post. Way to finally think about the children who might be reading your writing!!!!
I'll do whatever it takes to win games, whether it's sitting on a bench waving a towel, handing a cup of water to a teammate, or hitting the game-winning shot.- Kobe Bryant
A.J. Burnett's only fan!
I think about the children all the time when I curse
They gotta grow up sometime!
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 17, 2012 4:31 PM EST up reply actions
Peter Pan disagrees
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
What about the movie Hook?
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 17, 2012 7:04 PM EST up reply actions
Never seen it!
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
Great movie!
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 17, 2012 7:52 PM EST up reply actions
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