Everybody Wins: A Big Picture Look at the Montero/Pineda Trade
The Yankees and Mariners surprised the baseball world by agreeing to the rare exchange of a young blue chip hitter for a highly touted rookie pitcher. Because of the great potential many see in both Jesus Montero and Michael Pineda, it's hard to get an immediate handle on which team came away with the better end of the deal, especially when you consider the other components involved. In addition to Pineda, the Yankees also received 19-year old righty Jose Campos, whom many talent evaluators believe has the potential to be a top of the rotation pitcher. Meanwhile, the Mariners acquired a major league ready arm in Hector Noesi. Although his ceiling is not as high as the others involved in the deal, Noesi could very well step right in to the backend of the Seattle rotation. In other words, there's a lot to like from each team's perspective. So, instead of getting hung up on who "won the trade", it's much more relevant to evaluate the deal within the context of the Yankees' and Mariners' current roster.
As Brian Cashman so often repeated throughout the offseason, the Yankees' most pressing concern was pitching, pitching, and pitching. Even with the almost simultaneous free agent acquisition of veteran Hiroki Kuroda, the Bronx Bombers would have been thin in the rotation, so the acquisition of Pineda fills an obvious need. Although its probably premature to expect Pineda to immediately fall in line behind C.C. Sabathia as a second ace, there's good reason to be optimistic. Among all rookie starters age-22 or younger since 1961, Pineda's 2011 campaign ranked sixth in OPS against, fourth in strikeouts per nine innings, and fourth in WHIP. Based on these peripheral measures, Pineda seems to have substantial room for improvement over his already impressive rookie season. Of course, there are also many examples on each list of young pitchers who flamed out early, so the acquisition doesn't come without risk.
Comparison of Rookie Starters, Ages 22 and Young, Since 1961
Note: Based on a minimum of 162 innings.
Source: Baseball-reference.com
Now that Pineda and Kuroda have been added, the Yankees' rotation is suddenly bursting at the seams. With Sabathia and Ivan Nova already entrenched in the rotation, that leaves three pitchers for one spot. In a perfect world, the Yankees would be able to unload A.J. Burnett's contract, allowing Phil Hughes and Freddy Garcia to battle for the fifth slot during Spring Training. Both pitchers would not only be more than adequate in that role, but the odd man out could also prove to be an invaluable sixth man. However, getting rid of Burnett is probably wishful thinking, so it seems more likely that he will open the season as the fifth starter. And, who knows, maybe a lightened burden will translate into more success for Burnett?
If Hughes does wind up in the bullpen, the Yankees' already strong relief corps would look even more impressive on paper. Adding Hughes, who has had more success as a reliever, to the likes of Mariano Rivera, David Robertson, and Rafael Soriano, not to mention Job Chamberlain when he returns from Tommy John surgery, would give the Yankees five power right handed pitchers, all of whom are capable of shortening the game. Meanwhile, Garcia would still be of use as a swing man. If anything, the Yankees' may have too many talented relievers, but considering Joe Girardi's proven ability to manage his bullpen, that's a good problem to have.
By acquiring Pineda and Kuroda, all of the dominoes on the pitching staff have fallen into place. However, the absence of Montero now leaves a big hole at DH. To address that need, the Yankees have reportedly expressed interest in Carlos Pena, who would form a nice lefty/right DH platoon with Andruw Jones, while also strengthening the bench. There are a myriad of other options too, ranging from veteran free agents like Vlad Guerrero and Johnny Damon to potential value buys like Kendrys Morales. Also, the Yankees could instead target a more versatile player (someone like Martin Prado), which would allow Joe Girardi to use the DH slot as a resting place for his aging veterans. All of these options are viable, which is probably another reason why Cashman decided Montero's bat was expendable.
Unlike the Yankees, who entered the offseason in search of pitching, the Mariners have been desperate for a bat. Unfortunately for Seattle, the price of acquiring one has been too costly. So, faced with that reality, GM Jack Zduriencik did the next best thing. He acquired one of best offensive prospects in the game.
This is not the first time the Mariners have expressed interest in Montero. In 2010, the young catcher was one of the players headed to Seattle in the Cliff Lee trade before an injury to David Adams, another player in the deal, caused Zduriencik to get cold feet. The Mariners eventually decided to trade Lee to the Texas Rangers' for Justin Smoak, and now, they have both young hitters in the fold.
Along with Smoak and Montero, Dustin Ackley and Mike Carp give the Mariners a young core of position players around which to build. Meanwhile, the organization's farm system is chock full of talented young arms. Although the loss of Pineda will leave a short-term hole in the rotation, prospects like Taijuan Walker, Danny Hultzen, and James Paxton may soon be able to fill the void. Until then, the Mariners could also kick the tires on free agents like Roy Oswalt and Edwin Jackson, each of whom would slot in very nicely behind Felix Hernandez. Now that the team has a legitimate hitting prospect in the fold, it should be easier for the Mariners to make a short-term pitching move on the margins, which is exactly the position the Yankees find themselves in, but in reverse.
One interesting side note about the trade is the Yankees were reportedly targeting King Felix before turning their attention to Pineda. According to that report, Cashman was willing to back up the truck for Hernandez by sending Seattle a package that included Montero, Dellin Betances and Manny Banuelos, among others. Although trading Hernandez would have been a discouraging message to send to the team's fan base, the addition of two highly touted pitching prospects, as well as the ability to keep Campos, would have left the Mariners' with a farm system overflowing with top flight arms. Unless the Mariners can quickly return to being a contender, keeping Pineda, shedding payroll, and stockpiling blue chip pitchers might have been the better option.
Considering the realities facing each team, it's easy to see why this trade was made. Not only was the talent involved equally distributed on both sides, but each team successfully addressed their greatness weakness by dealing from strength. Assuming other complimentary moves are made, the Yankees and Mariners should both be significantly better in 2012. It was a long time coming, but it appears as if Cashman and Zduriencik have finally made a perfect match.
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Andruw Jones is going to surprise a lot of people.
I hear he put himself in shape and he’s looking to steal a job. Possibly the DH one could be his.
He should never bat vs. a right-handed pitcher
But he raked vs. lefties last year and he should keep that job. We should sign a left handed hitter – preferably one who can play a position besides 1b – to split time with Druw.
by Let's Talk About Tex Baby on Jan 14, 2012 12:19 PM EST up reply actions
Players always say they put themselves in shape in the offseason
"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth
you mean
he’s in the best shape of his life?
The above comment is not affiliated with the San Francisco Giants, is not based on a secret source of team information, and may contain personal opinion.
"I'll never forget San Francisco and all those beautiful moments."- Andres Torres
by natteringnabob on Jan 15, 2012 9:39 AM EST up reply actions
As for the trade...
I agree the big picture shows that both teams won. We’ll have to wait and see though. Trades are never decided from the moment they are made.
Oh interesting point.
One interesting side note about the trade is the Yankees were reportedly targeting King Felix before turning their attention to Pineda. According to that report, Cashman was willing to back up the truck for Hernandez by sending Seattle a package that included Montero, Dellin Betances and Manny Banuelos, among others. Although trading Hernandez would have been a discouraging message to send to the team’s fan base, the addition of two highly touted pitching prospects, as well as the ability to keep Campos, would have left the Mariners’ with a farm system overflowing with top flight arms.
By the last sentence I’m assuming our farm now has 3 top flight arms. :)
This is why the Mariners are never good
Because their game plan seems to be to try and trick their fans into thinking they’re “competing” when they don’t have the tools to compete.
by Let's Talk About Tex Baby on Jan 14, 2012 12:22 PM EST up reply actions
It does!
Even though losing Montero hurts, the Yankees system is still largely intact, which could allow them to make another blockbuster type trade. However, if the Mariners had made the deal, they’d have a young gun like Pineda in addition to SIX of the top prospect arms in the game, which seems like something a rebuilding team would want. Having said that, the Mariners do have money, so if they are willing to spend it, might as well keep Felix. They’d just better hope he doesn’t walk when they finally start to win again.
Follow me on Twitter @williamnyy23.
by William Juliano on Jan 14, 2012 1:17 PM EST up reply actions
don't forget Phil
Still some potential there. Needs to put it all together in 2012
by Arkansas Yankee on Jan 14, 2012 2:49 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
The fan reaction
That first thread last night when the trade broke, which consisted almost entirely of cursing and moaning, reminded me of the fans reaction over at BBV when JPP was drafted. So I’ll take that as a good sign.
The Yankees traded the more surefire players in an offensive player who will definitely hit in the middle of the order for the next 10 plus years, and a back to maybe middle of the rotation type pitcher. In exchange, they received two top flight arms, both capable of being ace pitchers, one ready and one a few years away. Because of their assets, they can make that gamble. Premiere pitching is elusive in MLB, especially trying to find young guys that won’t break the bank immediately. So I’ll trust Cashman on this one. Not like we have much choice anyway right?
Go Giants!
Wow. Talk about picking the wrong night to avoid news.
My Dad called and woke me up with the news this morning, though he couldn’t remember Seattle’s contribution to the trade, except for it not being Hernandez. That angered me until I saw it was Pineda. The bright Yankees pitching future may be starting a little sooner than I thought. On the other hand, is it too early to start worrying about the Yankees offense in years to come?
Usqueadbaugham! Anam muck an dhoul ! Did ye drink me doornail?
On the other hand, is it too early to start worrying about the Yankees offense in years to come?
No.
by Jedi Master A-Rod on Jan 14, 2012 1:13 PM EST up reply actions
Cano & Granderson being there doesn’t assuage your fears?
"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth
Granderson turns 31 in March so no.
Jeter, A-Rod, Teixeira, all past their primes. Swisher and Granderson aren’t far behind. No legit offensive prospects close to the majors.
31 is still your prime…
"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth
32 and 33 are fossil ages?
If you want to compare C-Grand to a great CF from the past, here are Bernie Williams’s age 32 and 33 seasons:
2001: .307/.395/.522, 138 OPS+, 140 wRC+, .387 wOBA
2002: .333/.415/.493, 141 OPS+, 146 wRC+, .396 wOBA
"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth
Completely different players in completely different eras.
by Briceratops on Jan 14, 2012 3:22 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
2001-2 is a completely different era?
I don’t think greatscott is saying that Grandy will be Bernie 2.0; I think he just means that Grandy doesn’t have to fall off a cliff just because he’s in his early 30s. He could still be a good player and remain productive despite the extra mileage.
I never said he was going to drop off a cliff.
But I do think that there is a very real difference between a 120 wRC+ and a 135 wRC+. Greatscott thinks that he will remain elite. I’m not so sure.
They have a few hitters in the minors still
Mason Williams, Sanchez, Bichette. Those guys are all really far away though and they might not work out, so who knows what will happen.
I'll do whatever it takes to win games, whether it's sitting on a bench waving a towel, handing a cup of water to a teammate, or hitting the game-winning shot.- Kobe Bryant
A.J. Burnett's only fan!
If not then we have the money to sign a top bat which are easier to find then top pitchers.
And we have a core of younger arms. It’s not sure fire, but it’s looking like a solid reconstruction plan while we can still contend.
Knowing that the Yankees were gunning for King Felix at first puts the trade in good perspective
Between Pineda and Hernandez, the much better pitcher is King Felix. And the Yankees were supposedly willing to sell the farm for him. But it would just not make sense for the Mariners to punt on the foreseeable future by trading King Felix. But since they still wanted the power bat of Montero, the Mariners were willing to trade their second-best pitcher (Pineda) for a song. Not that Montero is a song, but by comparison the Yankees only traded their top prospect, instead of their top three, for a pitcher with at least the same potential as Felix Hernandez.
all of whom are capable of shortening the game
lol
by Briceratops on Jan 14, 2012 2:43 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Morales is not an option
potential value buys like Kendrys Morales
He avoided arbitration with the Angels
"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth
Why isn't he an option?
The Angels have to pay $3 million to a player who has missed most of 2 seasons and who plays a position in which the team has a surplus (Pujols and Trumbo). Meanwhile, they need back-end bullpen help, of which the Yankees have plenty. If the Yankees wanted to take a chance that Morales will regain his form, I think there’s definitely a deal to be made.
Follow me on Twitter @williamnyy23.
by William Juliano on Jan 14, 2012 3:03 PM EST up reply actions
Deal for a guy to be basically a backup 1st baseman? No.
"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth
He wouldn't be a backup
He’d be the DH.
Follow me on Twitter @williamnyy23.
by William Juliano on Jan 14, 2012 4:04 PM EST up reply actions
happiest person in the world...
Gary Sanchez. His path to the majors just became a lot clearer.
by Arkansas Yankee on Jan 14, 2012 2:50 PM EST via iPhone app reply actions
Did it really?
The Yankees pretty much made it clear that they didn’t want a catcher who might not play defense well, regardless of his offensive ability.
"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth
Hahaha
You think prospects are safe. Charming
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 14, 2012 2:54 PM EST up reply actions
Well him too, actually. But Sanchez was a younger version of Montero. With Jesus in SEA, his chances of playing for NYY just got 10x better
by Arkansas Yankee on Jan 14, 2012 5:56 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
In addition to Pineda, the Yankees also received 19-year old righty Jose Campos, whom many talent evaluators believe has the potential to be a top of the rotation pitcher.
Oh good, a pitching prospect. Can’t wait to see what our organization does with him…
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 14, 2012 2:55 PM EST reply actions
Funny line, but hopefully they learned their lesson with Joba and it has a positive impact on our prospects. And, BTW, I’m hoping Joba can bring it when he gets back, circa 2007
by Arkansas Yankee on Jan 14, 2012 6:00 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
question
Why did Pineda only throw 47.1 innings in 2009 after throwing 138.1 the year before? Was he hurt? Has this been addressed anywhere?
by long time listener on Jan 14, 2012 3:43 PM EST reply actions
he threw 139 innings in 2010
Then 171 last year. I’m worried about his innings, of course.
by long time listener on Jan 14, 2012 3:47 PM EST up reply actions
I agree
Perhaps with the rotation depth that we’ve built, they can adjust the rotation so that he doesn’t have to get above 185.
by long time listener on Jan 14, 2012 3:53 PM EST up reply actions
are they thinking of trading Robertson?
That would be nutballs.
by long time listener on Jan 14, 2012 4:02 PM EST up reply actions
Fucked up elbow in 2009.
Healthy the last two years though. He throws like ~30% sliders so hopefully his arm can hold up.
Dear Larry Rothschild,
PROTECT HIM.
Love,
Yankees fans (and probably Mariners fans as well)
"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth
crazy prediction
I bet the Yankees trade Hughes. Probably for an outfield prospect.
by long time listener on Jan 14, 2012 3:50 PM EST reply actions
This would almost make me feel better. Almost.
Jesus Montero fangirl
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Jan 14, 2012 4:03 PM EST up reply actions
I still want to make sure.
Is this being upset about losing Montero
Hating the trade
Hating the return
All of the above?
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
Why for the rest?
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
by Brandon C. on Jan 14, 2012 4:50 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
I just don't think
“The Hunt for the #2” was ever all that necessary. We had a lot of depth that could give us quality innings. I don’t like the idea of making a hole to fill a hole (that wasn’t even really that hole-ish), it could doom the offense in a few years and I think Montero as an everyday player is more valuable than Pineda every 5 days. Montero would have cost us nothing to find out. Pineda cost us Montero.
Pitching depth?
The chart was:
CC
Nova
Garcia
Burnett
Hughes
depth
Noesi
Phelps
Warren
etc.
That “depth” has made all of 2 major league starts, both by Noesi.
"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth
ok?
Sometimes you actually have to put some faith in someone. Of Noesi/Warren/Phelps, one of them would have at least got us to the trading deadline. If we aren’t willing to give them a chance whats the point of even keeping them? We seem to operate from this mind frame “well he looks promising, but why take a chance yet when we can just scoop up someone else” When exactly is that chance supposed to be taken??
the Phillies don't need another pitcher
by long time listener on Jan 14, 2012 4:05 PM EST up reply actions
Somebody said in another thread that the Cubs and Phillies are interested
Don’t know if its true or not
Calm down
He’s just bringing up something he heard. Why would it be dumb that the Phillies or Cubs are interested in Hughes?
"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth
I hope not, I like him
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
he seems like the most likely guy to get traded
I’m sure the Yankees could get more for Nova, but that’d be crazy. CC and Pineda are untouchable, and it’s hard to see the Yankees trading AJ on favorable terms (unless he has a great start to 2012, which I guess is possible). Wouldn’t make much sense to trade Freddy or Kuroda, so Hughes is it.
by long time listener on Jan 14, 2012 4:00 PM EST up reply actions
They could somehow dump A.J.
I don’t know, I just like Hughes
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
don't get attached to prospects
Or young players, since Hughes isn’t really a prospect any more.
by long time listener on Jan 14, 2012 4:14 PM EST up reply actions
I’m not attached to him, I just think the Yankees would be making a mistake to trade him when his value is this low.
Makes more sense to use him in rotation and trade him if he does well or something.
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
Thing is, if AJ has a great start to 2012
Would you want to trade him? If he’s pitching well and helping the team would you be inclined to keep him or bank on him falling apart and dealing him at that time?
My answer is obvious based on my signature, but it’s an interesting thought.
I'll do whatever it takes to win games, whether it's sitting on a bench waving a towel, handing a cup of water to a teammate, or hitting the game-winning shot.- Kobe Bryant
A.J. Burnett's only fan!
I’d trade gim
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
by Brandon C. on Jan 14, 2012 4:51 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
he's getting paid a lot, and he's older
Pineda, Nova and CC aren’t going anywhere, and like I said, trading Garcia or Kuroda doesn’t make sense. They can get something for a year and half of AJ, and losing him – even if he’s doing well – won’t hurt too much because he doesn’t figure in out plans after 2013.
by long time listener on Jan 14, 2012 4:52 PM EST up reply actions
think you're right
I hope not, but I bet they do
by Arkansas Yankee on Jan 14, 2012 6:30 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Supa-slo-mo?
"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth
well
That’s too bad, as I was looking forward to watching Montero, but they need pitchers more than they need bats at the moment, I guess.
I had a suspicion last year that the Yankees had more or less decided that Montero wasn’t going to be someone they wanted to play. I don’t know if it’s just his defense, or they were unconvinced by his AAA numbers or scouting or whatever. I think they wanted to “sell high”, and while a season of 30 HRs in NY or something would have driven him higher, a mediocre season or slow start or injury would have made him worth a lot less.
The above comment is not affiliated with the San Francisco Giants, is not based on a secret source of team information, and may contain personal opinion.
"I'll never forget San Francisco and all those beautiful moments."- Andres Torres

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