Thoughts On The Montero For Pineda Trade
by Brandon C. on Jan 14, 2012 9:00 AM EST
in New York Yankees Analysis
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PrintThe New York Yankees traded Jesus Montero and Hector Noesi to the Seattle Mariners for Michael Pineda and Jose Campos.
Wow.
The Yankees have two of the top 2011 AL Rookie of the Year finalists in their rotation at the same time, in addition to CC Sabathia, and did not have to trade Manny Banuelos or Dellin Betances.
Wow.
I never supported trading Jesus Montero, and I am still certainly going to miss Montero. My first reaction to Montero being involved in the trade is that I always felt he would be the next Jorge Posada for the Yankees, and now that he is gone, I do not know what to think.
The young star that electrified Yankee Stadium daily in September, the player that was deemed "bored" in the minors, and "not good enough" to play catcher, the player that the Yankees defended more than any player on the Yankees, that player is now gone.
Wow.
Taking away any personal feelings, this deal screams fair for both sides. Jesus Montero was always projected to be the cleanup hitter for the Yankees for the next decade in my mind. The Yankees lineup seemed pretty set, and Montero was always part of it.
Now he is not, but the rotation picture is that much clearer.
CC Sabathia, Michael Pineda, Ivan Nova, Manny Banuelos/Dellin Betances/Phil Hughes/Adam Warren/David Phelps/Graham Stoneburner/other is the future of the rotation.
Wow.
As for Noesi and Campos, the Yankees traded a pitcher with less upside that is in the MLB for a pitcher with much more upside that is lower in the system. Fair enough.
If Jesus Montero has to go, this is the type of deal I am okay letting him go in. The Yankees have their #2 starter AND their money, AND their top two starting pitching prospects.
Crazy enough it might just work. Follow me after the jump for more.
The league consensus is that the Yankees "won" the trade, especially considering they got Pineda AND Campos, who's projections are fantastic.
The Yankees have taken a large step in the right direction in terms of pitching, but in terms of hitting the Yankees may need to address their future.
The rotation is set now, so the Yankees should take a look around the league for young hitting to fill the spot in the lineup leftover by Jesus Montero. If there are no obvious matches, the Yankees do not need another hitter, but it is preferred.
Also, the trade could help the Yankees financially in the future, as rather than having to sign a starting pitcher next off-season, the Yankees can use that money on re-signing Robinson Cano and Curtis Granderson.
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My thoughts.
It’s well documented here that I’m extremely high on both Montero and Noesi, so it shouldn’t surprise anyone that I favor the M’s side. With this said, I see it as one of those trades where he fit outweighs the value in a vacuum, so I like what Cash did here.
I think the Yanks overpaid a bit, but they most definitely got the goods with Pineda. Success or failure, Pineda is everything you could want in a young arm.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 14, 2012 9:16 AM EST reply actions
I think the M's got the worst of it but only slightly...
There’s no question that Montero’s power numbers are going to suffer in that park.
Pineda takes a hit too.
I also think that Noesi is just the kind of arm that benefits a lot from this move statistically.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 14, 2012 9:43 AM EST up reply actions
From reading reports on Pineda
He’s not really a fly ball pitcher. He’s about at the league average. Pineda may take a hit but it’s not a large hit. With his FB he can always pitch to the outside corner to lefties at the Stadium. Montero, on the other hand, won’t be able to abuse that Yankee short porch where his power lies.
Pineda
He’s talented enough to make adjustments too. Will be fascinating to see how a specimen like Pineda evolves. Primarily, how much was his previous approach a conscious effort to exploit Safeco?
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 14, 2012 9:58 AM EST up reply actions
He'd have to be crazy not to exploit Safeco
That said, all the tools are there for him to become dominant. He’s 22, throws serious heat, a dirty slider and doesn’t walk a lot of batters.
The same question with him is the same with any pitcher: Does he have or will he learn to be able to have control within the zone and throw the ball where he wants it? It’s the difference between an ace and an adequate pitcher.
Pineda pitcher better on the road than in safeco
and gave up less hr’s on the road. It’s a weird split.
Hughes?
So what team is Hughes pitching for in 2013?
I’m betting PIttsburgh. I’m guessing Hughes for Bedard, Meek or Hanrahan.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 14, 2012 9:30 AM EST reply actions
I wouldn't mind seeing...
Hughes, Betances, Nunez for Mccutchens (hes bout to get paid and we know Pitt doesn’t pay)
Hopefully Hughes looks so dominant in spring training...
That they’re forced to dump A.J. and Garcia into Tampa bay.
by Let's Talk About Tex Baby on Jan 14, 2012 9:38 AM EST up reply actions
He belongs in the NL for me.
And I mean this in a nice way. Hughes has talent. The AL East is just brutal.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 14, 2012 10:07 AM EST up reply actions
I hate to lose Montero, but this is a nice deal
They didn’t trade a “Killer B”, and got another good pitching prospect. Offense is always easier to get than pitching. I just hope Pineda ends up being the pitcher we think he will be. Though we will have to be patient for a guy heading into his 2nd season at 23. Kuroda will add some nice insurance in the 3 spot. Wow a pretty blah hot stove for the Yankees, exploded over one night.
by upstateNYYFan1984 on Jan 14, 2012 9:38 AM EST reply actions
"Offense is always easier to get than pitching."
This is a good point. Noesi is a huge X Factor for me though.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 14, 2012 9:42 AM EST reply actions
Reply fail.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 14, 2012 9:42 AM EST up reply actions
Considering his:
GB% and former home park, there’s certainly potential for unfair expectations.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 14, 2012 9:54 AM EST up reply actions
no
I’ll just blame it on Russel Martin. This whole thing is that piece of shit’s fault anyway, the Yankees got it in their thick skulls that Russ is a MLB catcher and not the sack of shit he is, so that’s why they felt they can trade Jesus.
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
Shortsighted? They traded for a 23 year-old-starter with five seasons of team control left, and got an extremely high upside 19 year-old starter in this deal.
Contributing writer for Pinstripe Alley.
Follow me on Twitter @frankiecamp48
by Frank Campagnola on Jan 14, 2012 3:53 PM EST up reply actions
He sucked in the middle of last year and they did nothing
I don’t what makes you think they would make changes this time around. But I guess if he sucks and they do make changes they could always go to Romine! I’m sure people would love that…
I don’t. That fucker better play out of his mind considering the only other options are two replacement level (at best) players.
by Jedi Master A-Rod on Jan 14, 2012 10:02 AM EST up reply actions
Well...
Russell will be batting 8th so if he can put up league average catcher numbers, that’s fine. Now that he’s not an obstacle to Montero anymore, I really have nothing against him.
by Let's Talk About Tex Baby on Jan 14, 2012 10:11 AM EST up reply actions
Why is everyone always bitching?
Every god damn player in the lineup doesn’t have to go 300 20, 100, 100 for us to win. If he gets our pitchers to perform better because of his catching then he’s doing his f’n job. Anything out of his bat is completely extra.
cERA!!!!!
I'll do whatever it takes to win games, whether it's sitting on a bench waving a towel, handing a cup of water to a teammate, or hitting the game-winning shot.- Kobe Bryant
A.J. Burnett's only fan!
Big time.
Ichiro, Figgins, Ackley, Montero, Smoak Gutz could be really fun to watch.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 14, 2012 10:02 AM EST up reply actions
No way.
He’s in the “whatever it takes” bracket for most people.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 14, 2012 10:16 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
There would still be unhappy people
We were all looking at Montero as being the next homegrown Yankee great and carrying the tradition handed down by Jeter and Rivera. We’ve heard about him for a long time and he didn’t disappoint when he was called up. Not many can do it in NY and Montero seemed to enjoy the spotlight.
There would still be questions about King Felix as well and if he could handle pitching in NY or any pressure situation.
I've seen Randy Johnson fail here
and Roger Clemens as well for his first two years after coming off two Cy Young’s in Toronto. The list could go on forever. Players don’t realize it until they have a 100 reporters sticking a mic in their face asking them why they sucked tonight.
Of course there is pressure playing in NY and especially the most legendary team in sports history.
I'd also add that
even A-Rod needed to see a therapist when he came to NY. I don’t know anyone more cocky than him in all of baseball.
and I doubt they struggled because they were worried about microphones
once you’re on the field you play the game. I’ve never seen anyone break down and cry in Yankee Stadium.
Pedro did..
After game 7 of the 2003 ALCS..
And probably game 6 of the 2009 World Series..
Let's cut through the crap, Vaughn. I only got one thing to say to you: "Strike this mother f*cker out."
"Whatever I do, I love to win. I don't care if it's tennis or ping pong, I'll kill myself to win it." --Andy Pettitte
and Farnsworth!
"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth
When he was traded to Detroit yeah.
"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth
Yeah there were tears..
I remember thinking, “No one likes you, why do you want to be here?”
Pettitte cried when he signed with Houston..
Let's cut through the crap, Vaughn. I only got one thing to say to you: "Strike this mother f*cker out."
"Whatever I do, I love to win. I don't care if it's tennis or ping pong, I'll kill myself to win it." --Andy Pettitte
Imagine if you had 100 mics around you if you screwed up
You don’t have to break down and cry. You just have to be rattled. Did you ever see the game where Chuck Knoblauch had like 4 errors on 3 consecutive plays during the Yanks 90s dynasty?
Playing for the Yankees and NY carries different pressures than playing for the Diamondbacks. You’re a rich sports player in the city that never sleeps. That alone can get you into tons of trouble. Playing for the Diamondbacks you’ll get 3 mics in your face.
They’re playing in a stadium where the baseball greats exist in plaques a few hundred feet away from you. Every player knows the retired numbers. Everyone knows the great Yankee eras. Heck, they will be playing with some of them today. Go to any country in this world and you’ll find many wearing the Yankee cap.
Being a Yankee carries a heavy weight. People expect you to be be great – especially if you have a contract. People don’t hope you do well. They expect you to. They expect you to win.
NY Pressure is Real
But it’s applied too frequently. Every regression of a new player is attributed to NY pressure to varying degrees. Sometimes players on the Yankees happen to get old, tired or distracted with their personal lives. Some can handle it just fine, and simply don’t like it.
NY has it’s strengths. Some call it a shit hole.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 14, 2012 11:21 AM EST up reply actions
That would have been much, much worse
Felix is great, but three of the top 5 prospects in the system is too much. Especially when one is the best hitting prospect in all of baseball.
This team didn’t need an ace. They have an ace. They needed another top of the rotation pitcher (a #2), and Pineda certainly fits that bill. And they got a big pitching prospect back AND kept their top two pitching prospects.
I probably would have hung onto Montero and just signed Kuroda if it were me. But this isn’t something I’m going to dwell over. It was actually pretty fair.
I'll do whatever it takes to win games, whether it's sitting on a bench waving a towel, handing a cup of water to a teammate, or hitting the game-winning shot.- Kobe Bryant
A.J. Burnett's only fan!
Fine, forget #2
They needed another legitimate starting pitcher and they got it.
I'll do whatever it takes to win games, whether it's sitting on a bench waving a towel, handing a cup of water to a teammate, or hitting the game-winning shot.- Kobe Bryant
A.J. Burnett's only fan!
Doesn't the first world have problems too?
Big screens need remotes and my broker’s Maz needs premium and, yes…
we needed a #2.
Even with his 2nd half swoon, Pineda outpitched Nova last year.
by Jedi Master A-Rod on Jan 14, 2012 10:56 AM EST up reply actions
I just wouldn’t consider him a “2” after his rookie season. Any pitcher. If he continues for another season or two, okay. It’s a bit premature right now.
Romine!
Don't take #2 too seriously
He’s the Yankees number two now (or maybe Kuroda). My point was they got a legitimate starting pitcher with the ability to become one of the best pitchers in the league. And if they’re going to give up Jesus, thats the type of thing I would want.
I'll do whatever it takes to win games, whether it's sitting on a bench waving a towel, handing a cup of water to a teammate, or hitting the game-winning shot.- Kobe Bryant
A.J. Burnett's only fan!
I wouldn't say that
I’ve seen Nova pitch under pressure and when he didn’t have good stuff and fought through it(in the playoffs). Pineda may have better stuff but Nova has proved himself.
Nova couldn't buff Pineda's ass
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
We would all buff Pineda's ass
if we were paid enough!
Pineda is better and has way more upside than Nova does
I'll do whatever it takes to win games, whether it's sitting on a bench waving a towel, handing a cup of water to a teammate, or hitting the game-winning shot.- Kobe Bryant
A.J. Burnett's only fan!
I'm going to disagree with you and Jedi.
Nova is every bit as good as Pineda for me, and has just as much upside.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 14, 2012 11:15 AM EST up reply actions
I think so too
But we’ve already seen Nova have success in NY. That’s a plus, too. Let’s have an opinion AFTER the 2012 season.
Romine!
GB% vs K%
Nova has a nasty 2 seamer that produces a strong GB%. I don’t penalize him for exploiting his strength because I think it’s the most sustainable skill for pitchers his age. I don’t think we’ve seen the best of Nova’s K%.
In summary, I’d say Pineda is the more likely ace, but also the more likely #3. I think Nova is as safe a bet as you get to be a steady #2, and still has ace upside.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 14, 2012 11:31 AM EST up reply actions
His K% is pretty close to where you'd think it would be
looking at his minor league K%s. Room for improvement, sure, but not a ton.
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by SandalsNoPants on Jan 14, 2012 11:34 AM EST up reply actions
On pure upside, Nova probably shouldn’t be in the same conversation as Pineda. Doesn’t miss enough bats and dishes out more walks.
by Jedi Master A-Rod on Jan 14, 2012 11:26 AM EST up reply actions
I disagree
But it pretty irrelevant imo. Nova goes from a serviceable #2 starters, to the best #4 starter in the league. The Pineda vs. Nova argument isn’t all that important since they are both on the roster.
Better than Santana in LAA?
Better than Moore in TB?
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by SandalsNoPants on Jan 14, 2012 11:31 AM EST up reply actions
Even if he isn't the best, he is right up there
My point is that adding Pineda makes the entire rotation better.
Oh, I completely agree.
Any rotation.
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by SandalsNoPants on Jan 14, 2012 11:39 AM EST up reply actions
Not sold on Moore.
Let’s see what he’s throwing after 150 major league innings.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 14, 2012 11:38 AM EST up reply actions
You don't think Moore will be better than Nova?
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by SandalsNoPants on Jan 14, 2012 11:39 AM EST up reply actions
Moore is much better than Nova thats obvious.
"I want to be a catcher. I love to catch. I like to be a catcher. I like to be in the middle of the game. I mean, it's my position. I want to play my position."-Jesus Montero
You mean you don't want to wait 150 innings to find out?
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by SandalsNoPants on Jan 14, 2012 11:42 AM EST up reply actions
I'll wait I'm just saying Moore is the better pitching prospect.
"I want to be a catcher. I love to catch. I like to be a catcher. I like to be in the middle of the game. I mean, it's my position. I want to play my position."-Jesus Montero
I'm messing with you.
Obviously Moore is much more talented.
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by SandalsNoPants on Jan 14, 2012 11:46 AM EST up reply actions
Maybe too early to tell who will eventually have a better career
but come on. Moore has a lot more talent.
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by SandalsNoPants on Jan 14, 2012 11:49 AM EST up reply actions
How many seasons will it be before it is not too early to tell.
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by SandalsNoPants on Jan 14, 2012 11:53 AM EST up reply actions
True
I love Nova, but if it’s a question of upside and talent level, Moore is on a different planet.
I'll do whatever it takes to win games, whether it's sitting on a bench waving a towel, handing a cup of water to a teammate, or hitting the game-winning shot.- Kobe Bryant
A.J. Burnett's only fan!
I've seen too many....
…hot shot power pitchers flame out to assume Moore is sustainable at this level. I think if Nova or the Yankees were more willing to gamble with Nova’s long term health, he could be more “nasty” too.
Consistency is talent for me, and Nova has shown me more of it at the big league level. As a big body power pitcher with good secondary stuff, it’s enough for me to hold out on committing to either guy as the “more talented” one.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 14, 2012 11:58 AM EST up reply actions
How many guys who look as dominant as Moore have you seen flame out?
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by SandalsNoPants on Jan 14, 2012 12:02 PM EST up reply actions
Bedard, Liriano
Those 2 come to mind with like half a brain cell committed to the task.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 14, 2012 12:06 PM EST up reply actions
I traded a package around Joba at the height of Joba-mania, and 1 bandwagoner came at me with “You don’t think Joba will be CC by himself?”.
Good call.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 14, 2012 12:16 PM EST up reply actions
I should mention
I got CC in that trade.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 14, 2012 12:18 PM EST up reply actions
Has he really flamed out?
He was good as a starter when they tried him there, but they wouldn’t let him succeed. His “flaming out” is put more on the Yankees than the player, imo.
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by SandalsNoPants on Jan 14, 2012 12:20 PM EST up reply actions
Well, that is a ton of guys you listed there.
I know you didn’t spend much time on this, but let’s poke some holes in your case right now. Bedard was never nearly as highly ranked as Moore as a prospect. Liriano was, though, but he wasn’t nearly as good as Moore until 2005. Lots of seasons before that where he was extremely hittable in the minors.
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by SandalsNoPants on Jan 14, 2012 12:19 PM EST up reply actions
That's weaksauce.
Come on man. I can just as easily poke those kinds of holes in any comp you’d choose between any 2 players.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 14, 2012 12:22 PM EST up reply actions
Okay.
You’re probably right. But the point is that neither of them seemed to be as good as Moore, imo.
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by SandalsNoPants on Jan 14, 2012 12:26 PM EST up reply actions
Take a 2nd look.
Because each was absolutely absurd when they peaked.
Bedard outperformed Johan for a while, when Johan was JOHAN.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 14, 2012 12:35 PM EST up reply actions
I thought we were talking about these guys as prospects.
Are you talking about Bedard’s season in Baltimore?
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by SandalsNoPants on Jan 14, 2012 1:49 PM EST up reply actions
I've been a Nova guy
from the get-go. There’s just something about him. He knows what he’s doing and who he seems to have that air of confidence. I like what I see and I think he’s going to be a very, very, good pitcher.
Romine!
TINSTAAP
I’m a believer in this, leading me to put a lot of emphasis on proven sustainability in the bigs. Nova still has a lot to prove for me too.
I don’t buy what I’m seeing until I see it for at least 150 innings in the bigs. I re-evaluate after 400 innings. Etc.
I think pitchers constantly evolve.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 14, 2012 11:49 AM EST up reply actions
Has he seen Nova's?
Josh Beckett 2.0.
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by SandalsNoPants on Jan 14, 2012 11:46 AM EST up reply actions
He asked for "upside".
I think that’s Nova’s best case scenario.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 14, 2012 11:46 AM EST up reply actions
How would he ever reach that?
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by SandalsNoPants on Jan 14, 2012 11:47 AM EST up reply actions
2 most obvious ways.
Polishing command of his breaking ball and change up, and throwing more change ups.
These aren’t easy things to do, but you said “upside”, meaning best case scenario. Best case scenario is supposed to he a low probability outcome.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 14, 2012 11:55 AM EST up reply actions
Beckett is a K pitcher.
Nova doesn’t have even that potential.
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by SandalsNoPants on Jan 14, 2012 11:58 AM EST up reply actions
Nova had several 6+ K games last year. I also see him throw wicked breaking balls and change ups sometimes. I think you’re being tough on him.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 14, 2012 12:03 PM EST up reply actions
Thank you!
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by SandalsNoPants on Jan 14, 2012 12:05 PM EST up reply actions
Oh, I totally am.
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by SandalsNoPants on Jan 14, 2012 12:12 PM EST up reply actions
He had 5 in 28 starts…
Just to keep the comparison, Beckett had 16 games with 6+ K’s in 30 starts.
by Jedi Master A-Rod on Jan 14, 2012 12:06 PM EST up reply actions
If you read the chat...
…I bridge the gap via explanation. I can understand if you disagree, but it makes sense for me.
Again, he asked for his CAP.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 14, 2012 12:08 PM EST up reply actions
What is the definition of several?
You may be correct, but only in 5 of his starts did he have 6+ K.
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by SandalsNoPants on Jan 14, 2012 12:08 PM EST up reply actions
To be honest...
…thought it was more. 5 is enough for me to say the potential is there.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 14, 2012 12:09 PM EST up reply actions
What do you think his K/9 potential is?
I think it’s mid 6.
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by SandalsNoPants on Jan 14, 2012 12:11 PM EST up reply actions
I think he’d be foolish to let it rise above 7.5. His 2 seamer is electric.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 14, 2012 12:13 PM EST up reply actions
"to let it"
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by SandalsNoPants on Jan 14, 2012 12:22 PM EST up reply actions
If for some reason he never pitched more than 165 innings again, he would have to find about 40 more K’s to “let” his K/9 get to 7.5.
by Jedi Master A-Rod on Jan 14, 2012 12:28 PM EST up reply actions
I'd rather he keep his K/9 rate low
Less K’s = lower pitch count
I’ll take CMW 2.0 over Beckett 2.0 every time.
Romine!
Beckett has 3 seasons of fWAR better than Wang's best.
Better matchup on rWAR, though, but Beckett’s 2011 is better than Wang’s best.
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by SandalsNoPants on Jan 14, 2012 12:24 PM EST up reply actions
whoa
That’s quite the leap of faith for Nova there. Pineda has way more upside. He’s much better than Nova. Out of curiosity, what comparison to a present or former major league pitcher would you say their upsides are?
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by SandalsNoPants on Jan 14, 2012 11:30 AM EST up reply actions
Comps
Nova – Josh Beckett
Pineda – Matt Cain
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 14, 2012 11:36 AM EST up reply actions
You're shitting me.
Neither of those pairs are even remotely the same type of pitcher.
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by SandalsNoPants on Jan 14, 2012 11:38 AM EST up reply actions
Really?
Cain – High 90’s velo early in his career. Primarily fastball/slider guy. Low GB%. Cain also posted a 9-ish K/9 in his first year. I can see Pineda’s velocity dipping the same way Cain’s did, lowering his K/9, putting his peripherals in line with Cain’s.
Beckett – Similar frame. Similar peak velocity. Both have big breaking balls, working primarily off good 2 seam fastballs in the 93-94 range.
They’ve been groomed differently, but I think we’re going to see Nova sacrifice some GB% to generate more Ks eventually, bringing his peripherals in line with Beckett’s.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 14, 2012 11:44 AM EST up reply actions
Also
Cain and Pineda each feature hard, straight 4 seam fastballs.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 14, 2012 11:45 AM EST up reply actions
I'd compare Nova with pre-injury CMW
Hopefully Nova’s career takes a different path.
I'll do whatever it takes to win games, whether it's sitting on a bench waving a towel, handing a cup of water to a teammate, or hitting the game-winning shot.- Kobe Bryant
A.J. Burnett's only fan!
probably dumb
but who is cmw?
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by SandalsNoPants on Jan 14, 2012 11:55 AM EST up reply actions
gotcha.
That is actually a decent comp. If Nova becomes what Wang was for a couple seasons, then that would be fantastic for the Yankees.
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by SandalsNoPants on Jan 14, 2012 12:03 PM EST up reply actions
no pitcher should ever try for less k's
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Jan 14, 2012 12:06 PM EST up reply actions
Wrong
Every pitcher should try for an out. Mariano Rivera could crush anyone but he chose to get less outs so he could be available for more games. This is the same for a SP, only they have to worry about pitching more innings.
I’ve never seen Greg Maddux worry about strikeouts.
he had good strikeout numbers at his peak....
but he was really great because he walked next to nobody
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Jan 14, 2012 2:06 PM EST up reply actions
You may be right but
Pineda’s frame is like CC’s. He can pitch for power effortlessly. If he puts it at 94 where he wants to I won’t complain.
Pineda is what the scouts like. He’s big, has a large back and strong legs. That assures he’s going to be throwing hard a long time without injuries.
I don’t think that Nova will be like Beckett. He’s not a strikeout pitcher. He’s the type of pitcher who has enough stuff to potentially outsmart and/or confuse a batter.
"Upside"
Again, I think it’s his best case scenario, not his most likely scenario. And I agree with you.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 14, 2012 12:00 PM EST up reply actions
But you're transforming pitchers into others who are not like them.
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by SandalsNoPants on Jan 14, 2012 12:05 PM EST up reply actions
I don't know whom you're referring to...
I’m not saying that Pineda will be CC but he’s on the right track. He’s got the skills and the proven ability. I think I’m dead right about Nova. If he’s going to be a SO pitcher he will fail.
BTW, I liked Shea more as well but that may be because I saw Gooden pitch and Strawberry hit.
CC was the name I had in mind for Pineda's upside.
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by SandalsNoPants on Jan 14, 2012 12:09 PM EST up reply actions
Both are exactly the same
Both have the FB and the slider. Pineda is still trying to work on the changeup, which CC has.
What are you talking about?
"I want to be a catcher. I love to catch. I like to be a catcher. I like to be in the middle of the game. I mean, it's my position. I want to play my position."-Jesus Montero
Plus he has those Vitamin B shots!
Those will increase your upside every time!
Let's cut through the crap, Vaughn. I only got one thing to say to you: "Strike this mother f*cker out."
"Whatever I do, I love to win. I don't care if it's tennis or ping pong, I'll kill myself to win it." --Andy Pettitte
I'm interested in what happens with this years rotation
Fucking Freddy Garcia complicates everything, and unless they find a way to dump him or AJ on another team I think there’s a legitimate chance that Hughes is in the pen and Nova is in AAA to start 2012.
The more I read about Pineda though the more I like him. He’s under team control forever, has #1 pitcher ability and he’s 23 years old. This move makes this teams rotation a big strength for years, and thats a huge plus.
And this is still the best lineup in baseball (or among the best), with or without Montero.
I'll do whatever it takes to win games, whether it's sitting on a bench waving a towel, handing a cup of water to a teammate, or hitting the game-winning shot.- Kobe Bryant
A.J. Burnett's only fan!
I can't believe that they'd do that to Nova
I understand that AJ and Garcia make a combined 20 mil this year, but I still think it’s a meritocracy to some degree and Nova earned a guaranteed spot with his pitching last year.
Things don’t look good for Hughes right now – this is exactly why you don’t sign someone like Freddy Garcia in November – but his only recourse is to come to spring training in great shape and pitch well enough to force them to put him in the rotation.
by Let's Talk About Tex Baby on Jan 14, 2012 10:24 AM EST up reply actions
Cutting Freddy is an option
That would be pretty dick though. Sign him early and guarantee him a rotation spot, and then release him before pitchers and catchers report. And it’s nice to have pitching depth.
But Garcia in no way should be guaranteed a rotation spot. I’d prefer both AJ and Hughes over him.
I'll do whatever it takes to win games, whether it's sitting on a bench waving a towel, handing a cup of water to a teammate, or hitting the game-winning shot.- Kobe Bryant
A.J. Burnett's only fan!
It actually is
I'll do whatever it takes to win games, whether it's sitting on a bench waving a towel, handing a cup of water to a teammate, or hitting the game-winning shot.- Kobe Bryant
A.J. Burnett's only fan!
You know what's exciting?
Sabathia, Kuroda, Pineda, Nova, and Garcia as the starting rotation. A rotation where every name ends in “a”. A first!!!!!
Romine!
LIKE IT
GOOD PITCHING BEATS GOOD HITTING. THAT SAID, I STILL THINK THE YANKS NEED A BAT.
If George were still running the team...
then Fielder would definitely be on the Yanks. He wouldn’t care about the cap changes in ‘14. I’d give Fielder a 2 year deal with the third as a player option. Fielder will put asses in seats sell a lot of Yankee jerseys with the short porch.
Anyway, I don’t know how Hal Steinbrenner could actually believe that the Yanks can get under $189 by ’14 when they still need to sign Granderson and Cano to long term deals.
Won't happen
But this team would be sick if Fielder was in the lineup
Romine!
by david d on Jan 14, 2012 11:06 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Sure would
Jeter-Granderson-Cano-Alex-Fielder-Teixeira-Swisher-Martin-Gardner?
I love to dream.
I'll do whatever it takes to win games, whether it's sitting on a bench waving a towel, handing a cup of water to a teammate, or hitting the game-winning shot.- Kobe Bryant
A.J. Burnett's only fan!
Fielder would have over 50HR's as Yankee this year
unaided by roids.
He probably would
I'll do whatever it takes to win games, whether it's sitting on a bench waving a towel, handing a cup of water to a teammate, or hitting the game-winning shot.- Kobe Bryant
A.J. Burnett's only fan!
Michael Pineda is Legit as Legit gets period!
I will miss J Montero but we needed pitching badly can’t wait to opening day.
Cashman found a way to get it done
He had to strengthen the rotation now because this is an aging team. He had to keep payroll for anything beyond this year. With these two moves he did just that.
We gave up the crown jewel and if he turns out to be a HOF kind of hitter we’ll all rue the day. But I think Pineda has as much upside as a pitcher as Montero does as a hitter. A ballsy and fascinating trade. Most of the GM’s and scouts seem to like the Yankees side of it a bit better, but the truth is no one knows. All we can do now is hope this turns out in our favor.
I am very high on Hughes for next year. He’s working out this winter, unlike last year. I think he becomes the # 5 with the possibility he out pitches Nova and Pineda for this season. Some regression is likely for those two but I love our rotation long term now.
Go Giants!
Well said
AJ will be moved. Garcia in the pen and spot starter. CC, Pineda, Kuroda, Hughes & Nova
Martin? Get over it
Bring lawyers, guns and money to get me out of this one! Stand in the Fire.
by MSP Giant on Jan 14, 2012 11:24 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I'm not convinced AJ gets moved
There were no takers when the Yankees were willing to take 8 million. Who knows if the Yanks will be willing to take more. They may believe they can get more value out of him than anything they get back (I believe it anyways).
Regardless, I"m a lot more confident in this rotation now than I was. It’s a great top 3 for 2012 and between Nova, Hughes, AJ, Garcia, Warren, Phelps and anyone else I’m sure they’ll manage to come up with the 4 and 5 spots in some way.
I'll do whatever it takes to win games, whether it's sitting on a bench waving a towel, handing a cup of water to a teammate, or hitting the game-winning shot.- Kobe Bryant
A.J. Burnett's only fan!
I don't get all why some ppl are upset...
Well i guess I understand, I just don’t see it. Obviously Montero was loved around here, when he got his chnace he produced and thats gravy, but he didn’t have a spot that was clearly his on our team. It’ll suck to see him play well in Seattle, I know i get a little bitter when the likes of Kennedy, Jackson, Melancon are brought up, I hope he we didn’t give up on him a little early. With that said we still have Romine and Sanchez, yes they may be a couple or a few years away from the major leagues, but they are highly touted prospects and Romine may be able to fill that spot as soon as the Martin fiasco is over. Pineda was a solid value move for Montero and I think really made sense for both teams, I just hope Ackley and Montero don’t become the 3, 4 combo I think they have the capability to be.
ELIte
by colinlovestheknicks on Jan 14, 2012 11:15 AM EST reply actions
+1
Except this part:
I just hope Ackley and Montero don’t become the 3, 4 combo I think they have the capability to be.
I wish Jesus all the success in the world.
Romine!
Ok maybe I was being harsh...
lets just say it would be bitter sweet to see Montero succeed at the level we thought he would for us. I hate seeing guys that were in our system forever and guys we always talked about for a long time ultimately doing well for other organizations. I know Granderson is better than Jackson, at the time Philthy and Joba were better long term prospects than Kennedy, our bullpen was to crowded for a kid like Melancon to find a spot and even a guy like Jeff Karstens who wouldn’t have a spot on our team found mild success in Pitt. I feel like in a few years Montero will be talked about in the same sense as these kids.
ELIte
by colinlovestheknicks on Jan 14, 2012 11:39 AM EST up reply actions
he had a spot
catcher. Our catcher sucks. Its really simple.
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
Here are my thoughts
Initially I was furious. This was probably because of my un-normal love of Jesus Montero but when you actually sit down and think about it, we won the trade. 2 potential top of the rotation starters and we gave up none. That is a win. Jesus is going to be great but in the end he is a hitter, and finding a hitter is a lot easier than a pitcher.
draftdatabase.wordpress.com
Follow @steelersrule124
by seton hall and steelers on Jan 14, 2012 11:37 AM EST reply actions
Is Montero going to catch in Seattle?
I'll do whatever it takes to win games, whether it's sitting on a bench waving a towel, handing a cup of water to a teammate, or hitting the game-winning shot.- Kobe Bryant
A.J. Burnett's only fan!
Probably. It’s either him or LOLivo
by Jedi Master A-Rod on Jan 14, 2012 11:58 AM EST up reply actions
My response to this trade:
“The stone that the Yankees rejected shall become the Mariners’ cornerstone”
by pastor2b on Jan 14, 2012 11:56 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
Should Yankees fans be awaiting his return?
Usqueadbaugham! Anam muck an dhoul ! Did ye drink me doornail?
Yes. We must await his second coming...
via free agency!
You can never have "too much" pitching..
Torre always said that things find a way to work themselves out.
I’m thinking CC, Pineda, Nova, Kuroda, Garcia.
Trade AJ (eat most his salary), pick up a platoon guy for DH.
And as much as I hate to say it, put and LEAVE Hughes in the pen. He was filthy for us in ’09.
Think about this. Starter goes 5 innings…Hughes/Joba (when he returns) for 6th, Soriano for 7th, D-Rob for 8th and Mo for the 9th.
Games will be 5 innings long and then we can call it an early night..
Let's cut through the crap, Vaughn. I only got one thing to say to you: "Strike this mother f*cker out."
"Whatever I do, I love to win. I don't care if it's tennis or ping pong, I'll kill myself to win it." --Andy Pettitte
For some reason...
I think AJ will have a really good year and will be one of our best pitchers. I wouldn’t bet ’13 on that though.
You’re right about Torre. The Yankees used to have an abundance of pitching in the 90s but it always managed to work itself out. I’m sure it will be the same here. I don’t want the Yanks to trade any of their pitching.
by Ganymedes on Jan 14, 2012 12:00 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
NL West to AL East
I think this is a bigger jump than AAA to the majors in the NL.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 14, 2012 12:29 PM EST up reply actions
That first line deserves a rec
I'll do whatever it takes to win games, whether it's sitting on a bench waving a towel, handing a cup of water to a teammate, or hitting the game-winning shot.- Kobe Bryant
A.J. Burnett's only fan!
As somebody that became a montero fan last season i agree with the trade
It sucks trading your prospect the player that the team built but lets face it Montero was a luxury in this team, there is no way that rodriguez and jeter can hold up, and after this season montero would have struggled for at bats. As far as Noesi i was a big fan but he does not miss bats, and was another luxury that was not much of an upgrade when compared to hughes or garcia.
I think in Pineda we got a really exciting proven young pitcher that still has room for improvement, and its easier to fill out montero’s bat than pineda…….For me we got the best deal we can possibly get assuming Pineda plays the way he is projected to.
Where is the meatloaf?
It fits the Yanks very well.
The missing piece of the current rotation was obvious. Add to this that their primary competitive advantage is cash, and big contract hitters are MUCH safer investments than big contract pitchers.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 14, 2012 12:38 PM EST up reply actions
On hitting:
They may need another stick in the lineup….eventually. But not as they break camp, and maybe not this season at all. They’ve got til July to fill THAT hole.
Kuroda’s deal is only for 1 year. That means they’ll have some wiggle room next year to either bolster the offense or try to get one of the pitchers that figures to be on the market, for a longer term deal (with only ONE more year of AJ’s albatross on the books).
Their lineup looks to be better than average this year. If they found another journeyman bat, that could be cheap and productive (hey…what’s Johnny Damon doing), and was willing to be a part time DH….they’d be set.
I’m not loving that Cervelli’s probably going to be our backup catcher this year….but it’s something I can live with.
Never trade a young hitter for a young pitcher.
Pitchers usually have arm problems. Pineda missed most
of the 2009 season.
Never trade a young hitter for a young pitcher!
I’m right with you dude! Brandon C. doesn’t know what he’s talking about, and he hasn’t done his research!
I haven't read through all the posts on this
So I apologize if this was already discussed, but how do you feel about this move as opposed to trading Matt Garza or someone like Latos or Gonzalez? I am both a Cubs and Yankees fan and thought getting 2/3 of Montero, Man Ban, and Betances would have been a steep price for the Yankees. Garza has been proven in the playoffs and the AL East but is pretty much at his peak right now and only has 2 years of team control left. With this deal, you get a #2 starter with upside and #1 potential who is under team control for 5 years and only had to give up Montero and Noesi. I like the deal although I wish it could have worked for Montero to stay in pinstripes.
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" - Frank Chance
Offense vs. pitching
I agree that the yankees need to start planning for their offense in the future. But as you can see with Prince and Albert, hitters who can put up 30+ 110, 110 and 300 do come around. Maybe not all you’d want but they exist and do leave their teams. Pitchers who could become no.1’s or no.1 already almost never do. Lee was a true exception. And three years before that lee was sent to the minors.
One more thing....
From baseball reference. Pitchers of comparison…
Similar Pitchers through 22
Josh Beckett (988)
Roy Halladay (988)
Jack McDowell (988)
Darryl Kile (984)
Mule Watson (984)
Ken Hunt (983)
Silvio Martinez (982)
Jesse Litsch (981)
Dave Freisleben (981)
Bill Monbouquette (980
DH after Montero
Vazquez at Scranton should at least get a shot in spring training. At least in Yankee Stadium, he might be a more than a 4A hitter, and he can play 1B if necessary. Vazquez/Jones would be an inexpensive platoon at DH when Nunez is not filling in for Jeter or A-Rod. Losing Montero is painful, but his absence is easier to fix than a rotation gap. If Prince Fielder does end up in pinstripes, he too would be suited to Yankee Stadium like Jason Giambi at his best (if he can stay in some kind of shape).
i LOVE hearing that our biggest area of need going forward is a bat
it’s a very good problem to have in the big scheme of things. The yanekes in the recent past have been in the, “wee need a pitcher” phase and now with this move and with the yougn pitchers we still have we’ve salitified our rotation for the present and future. Let’s make things very clear, we WILL find ourselves a bat when the time comes to fill in the middle of the order spot that Montero was going to fill. That WILL happen, i have no doubt in my mind because finding that bat is a lot easier to find that a top of the rotation guy. Hell Carlos Pena could fill in and do what Montero was going to do this season. At WORST there are always those one year type free agents the Yankees can pick up to fill any offensive void they have. The Damon type guy of the past few years, Vlad of 2 years ago, a Berkman type signing last year for the Cardinals. Those options are their year in year out, a top rotation arm for under 1 mill just doesn’t get dealt and we just got one in a trade. Loooooooove it.
Hell Carlos Pena could fill in and do what Montero was going to do this season.
I doubt it.
Jesus Montero fangirl
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Jan 14, 2012 2:46 PM EST up reply actions
Pena probably will have better numbers if we platoon him
unless your expectation for Montero are like .300/.400/.600, i think Pena would be better
Pineda a #2 starter?
How the heck do you see this guy as a #2 starter? The M’s had to limit his innings pitched in 2011, he has only 1 big league season behind him, and he had elbow problems in 2009. That sounds more like a #5 pitcher.
are you really acting like its insane to see pineda as a number 2 starter? that’s just not that insane of a thought to get that worked about.
No...
He says he sounds like a fifth starter. If he knew anything about Pineda he would realize thats bullshit.
No, I wouldn't.
But I also would not curse like your childish self when there may be children reading these posts. Oh, wait that’s what you are!
#2 starter in 2013
He might not be #2 this season but I would count on him being #2 next year…even if he only has 1 season under his belt for the Yanks and here is why…if he had any sort of run support in seattle, he easily would have won 4 or 5 more games, his numbers and strikeouts rose in the 2nd half of the year despite not getting much run support from that atrocious Mariners lineup.
Overall this trade is a win-win, the M’s get a top notch “catcher” and a #3 guy in their rotation. We get a guy who will be our #2 for the next 5-7 years, because the way the roation will be in 3 years….will go as such… CC, Pineda, Banuelos, Betances, Nova….that’s pretty nasty
Looks at his numbers from last year
he would have been our number 2 last year based on that performance alone. With one MLB season under his belt, you expect him to regress to a number 5?
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