Greatest Yankees By Position Pt2 Pitchers
by mordred0831 on Sep 23, 2011 12:08 PM EDT
Email
PrintI put together a 5 man rotation and 3 relievers. I based this only on stats as Yankees . By the way because of the big debate on Pt1. I gave Pettite a chance to make the staff based on stats only. He would have been ranked 10th out of 11 starters.
Starters
#1 - Whitey Ford
#2 - Jack Chesbro
#3 - Ron Guidry
#4 - Mel Stottlemeyer
#5 - Bob Shawkey
Bull Pen
Right Handed Set Up Man - Goose Gossage
Left Handed Set Up Man - Sparky Lyle
Closer - Mariano Rivera
My thinking for the Bullpen is that Lyle and Gossage came in earlier and worked through the 9th. They would be considered now the lefty and righty set up men.
Let the debate begin.
45 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Sorry About The Other 2 Replies
Problem with my computer.
The Starters I ranked by Wins, ERA, and WHIP. These stats only represent the time when they were on the Yankees.
Below is the list of starters who made the Initial Cut.
These Are The Starters I Started Off With
Whitey Ford
Red Ruffing
Andy Pettite
Lefty Gomez
Ron Guidry
Bob Shawkey
Waite Hoyte
Mel Stottlemeyer
Allie Reynolds
Jack Chesbro
Herb Pennock
and how exactly did Ruffing and Gomez not make it over Chesbro and Shawkey?
And how was Andy 10th out of those 11?
Jack Chesbro had the best ERA and WHIP but was only 10th in wins with 128
Bob Shawkey was 6th in wins 4th ERA 5th WHIP
Red Ruffing was 2nd in Wins 8th ERA 6th WHIP (He was ranked 6th Overall)
Lefty Gomez was 4th in Wins 7th ERA 9th WHIP (He was ranked 7th Overall)
You do realize that you have to make adjustments for the era in which they pitched?
In Jack Chesbro’s greatest season, 1904, AL teams averaged 3.6 runs per game. In 1937, Lefty Gomez’s (arguably) greatest season, AL teams averaged 5.2 runs per game. A simple ranking according to ERA and WHIP isn’t sufficient. And wins are a team stat and thus utterly worthless as a measure of individual performance.
About Wins
That is how I got my original list started. Yes it is a team stat but also an individual, If you do not give quality inninings piched you are not going to win very many games. Yes you will have some seasons where might win more games because of your team hitting but with these pitchers we are talking a decade or more.
Jack Chesbro is a Hall Of Famer. Either way you look at it he was considered a dominate pitcher of his era.
I think your opinion has merit
If you can using those 11 pitchers can you make the adjustments you are talking about and rerank them. I am curious how far off I would be. But again only using stats while they were Yankees.
I will try that
Just as a little side note based on WHIP the top 5 pitchers would still be the same only the top 3 order would change
Chesbro
Guidry
Ford
Mel
Shawkey
Based on ERA+
Ford
Gomez
Ruffing
Guidry
Shawkey
Hoyte
Reynolds
Pettite
Pennock
Stottlemeyre
Chesbro
Andy Pettite
3rd Wins, and 11th in ERA and WHIP.
Mel Stottlemyre says "Please spell my name correctly."
A relief pitcher named Joe Paige who pitched on the Casey Stengel teams of the 50s was the first ‘closer’ in baseball. He played before the save stat was invented, but had closers been used as they are now, he would be worth a look. The problem with the starters of the 1950s (who have 3 of the top spots) is that the team was such an offensive powerhouse that wins were relatively easy to come by.
by designatedquitter on Sep 23, 2011 3:05 PM EDT reply actions
Sorry Mel
All Left Handers – Joe Paige, Dave Righetti and Sparky Lyle
Joe Paige 3rd in ERA and WHIP
Dave Righetti 2nd in ERA and WHIP
Sparky Lyle 1st in ERA and WHIP
Based on observations made
Ford,Guidry, and Shwakey are 3 of the 5 man staff
We need 2 more of the following 4:
Jack Chesbro
Mel Stottlemeyre
Lefty Gomez
Red Ruffing
Who gets the last 2 spots on the rotation?
Just Curious
Where is Fritz Peterson on the list? Maybe the best Yankee pitcher in the worst era of team history.
Mike Mussina should be on the list. He has a better FIP- than anyone you put on the list. Maybe you didn’t include him because he threw only 1500 innings as a Yankee, compared to some guys who spent a longer time with the team. That would be a valid reason, but in terms of just what he did, he has the best FIP- of any Yankee starter with over 800 innings pitched. Also, Pettitte should be on the list as well.
You can’t just look at ERA and wins, pitchers used to start more games per season, thus more chances to get wins. Also, the run environment has to be taken into account. Someone with a 3 ERA in the 1910s isn’t the same as someone with a 3 ERA in the early 2000s.
The Savior has come, and he is glorious. #63
Looking at a 5 Man Rotation
Mussina nice pitcher but not Hall of Fame Quality or Just a notch below.
We have used the following calculations:
Stats only as Yankees
ERA
WHIP
ERA+ (this takes into consideration the era for which a player plays.
With those stats the Top 7 never change. The Following 3 are always in the Top 5:
Whitey Ford
Ron Guidry
Bob Shawkey
Mussina will make the HoF. He might not be first ballot, but he will get in. Go on fangraphs and look at his career numbers, those are clear HoF stats.
The Savior has come, and he is glorious. #63
Mussina Was More of an Oriole Than a Yankee
More years as an Oriole
More wins as an Oriole
Better stats as an Oriole
Yes he is a boderline HOFer but not a All Time Great Yankee
He threw over 1500 innings as a Yankee, and was on the team for 8 years. He is actually 14th on the list of most innings pitched as a starter for the Yankees. I think he qualifies to be in the discussion, and his stats for just his Yankee years are second behind only Whitey Ford. He should be on the list.
The Savior has come, and he is glorious. #63
More this, more that
It doesn’t matter. You’re ranking Yankees pitchers. His time as a Yankee is what is being considered, and he ranks pretty high in many Yankees pitching stats.
"Unpleasant Internet Dude"
formerly known as "Rude Internet Guy"
like all these discussions about the Yanks
it’s kinda hard to make short lists of great players.
But if you make a list of great pitchers and have no category for Dave Righetti on it, something’s wrong. How about “Pitchers with a no-hitter and over 200 saves”?
Where have you gone, Steven Revetria? A bandwagon turns its lonely eyes to you.
"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased
"That one's on me."- Madison Bumgarner
by natteringnabob on Sep 25, 2011 10:07 AM EDT reply actions
What About Rags
He is 2nd in WHIP and ERA to Sparky Lyle.
And when I think about the Yankees in the 80s I used to cringe when he came in. I remember very few 123 innings it was always a struggle, for him.
I think the Yankees did him a disservice turning him from a starter to a reliever.
What I remember, I could very well be wrong was if he made it though the 1st inning he picthed as a releiver unscathed he would get better the more he pitched. It was getting through those 1st few batters.
LOL
Throw in Ed Whitson, Steve Trout, Don Gullett
Weren’t the baseball gloves a lot smaller yearsago?
I’m only 64, but baseball gloves in the 50s were smaller
and you were limited in what you could catch. The gloves
before the 1950s were even smaller. Obviously, pitchers
were at a disadvantage compared to the gian baseball
gloves of today.
Yes, they were as the league limited glove sizes to 12" whereas today’s are only slightly larger. Modern pitchers gloves are also designed to help pitchers conceal their grips to batters. However, everyone was playing under the same guidelines in the 50’s. This is where a stat like ERA+ comes in handy to help compare pitchers that threw during different eras.
by Scooby Snacks on Sep 27, 2011 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions
IMHO, you have to adjust for the era these guys played in
And length of career is probably less important than effectiveness while a Yankee.
As such, Mussina and David Cone deserve more consideration, as does El Duque and Pettitte for their postseason results.
IMHO, of your starters, only Ford, Guidry and Stottlemyre would make my cut and would be joined by Pettitte and Cone.
You also need some long relief – and I would add Reynolds, Ruffing and Mussina to the staff for that.
Can’t argue with your 3-man bullpen, although I might add Wetteland to it.
If the numbers are a problem
We could make Stottlemyre the pitching coach
by D1andonlyDman on Sep 28, 2011 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
We are talking the Greatest Yankees of all time
Mussina
Cone
El Duque
Did not play long enough with the Yankees.
Pettite like I said was at of my list 11th
Wettland would not beat out Gossage or Rivera. Also he did not pitch long enough for the Yankees
If you add Mussina to the list
This is where he ranks with the other 11 starters
Wins – 12th
ERA – 11th
IP – 12th
ERA+ – 6th
WHIP – 4th
Since he played more years as an Oriole and had better stats as an Oriole and his ERA+ which takes into consideration the ERA for which you play He does not make the cut of the top 5 Yankee starters of all time.
Final Rankings Using Top 15 IP Yankees
Based on the following Stats
Wins
ERA
IP
ERA+
WHIP
- - Whitey Ford
- - Ron Guidry
- - Red Ruffing
- - Mel Stottlemyre (Tied For 4th)
- - Bob Shawkey (Tied For 4th)
- - Lefty Gomez
- - Jack Chesbro
- - Andy Pettite
- - Fritz Peterson (Tied For 8th)
- - Waite Hoyte (Tied For 8th)
- - Mike Mussina (Tied For 9th)
- - Allie Reynolds (Tied For 9th)
- - Ray Caldwell (Tied For 10th)
- - Vic Raschi (Tied For 10th)
Greatest Yankee Pitching Staff is
Starting Rotation
Whitey Ford
Ron Guidry
Red Ruffing
Mel Stottlemyre
Bob Shawkey
Bull Pen
Sparky Lyle
Goose Gossage
Mariano Rivera
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Pinstripe Alley
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
In Association With
Big League Stew - MLB - Yahoo! Sports
- The Juice: Nelson Cruz matches career high eight RBIs, Pujols stays hot in Seattle
- Benches clear at Fenway as Red Sox-Rays rivalry heats up
- Keeping good company: Albert Pujols becomes fourth-youngest player to hit 450 home runs
- Giancarlo Stanton misses cutoff man, and Logan Morrison is thankful he did (Video)
- Snoop Dogg delivers memorable first pitch at U.S. Cellular Field
