Who's having the better career?
by DCyanks21 on Aug 2, 2011 4:28 PM EDT
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PrintI'm trying to figure out if even us Yankee fans think Dustin Pedroia is better than Cano. Personally I think it's clear. Pedroia tied Bautista for fWAR and toobe honest I'm starting to think he's the best 2B in baseball. I mean Cano's great he's even my favorite player, but Pedroia is better. I even had this conversation with my friend. Where I was called a "Red Sox fan" because of my argument that Pedroia was better. I used advanced metrics and I was told they're made up stats.
It's funny because I showed my friend these stats a year ago and I even gave him an explanation and definition for them. He won't accept that even ESPN is using these stats. He's still true to batting average, RBI's, and home runs. He ignores OBP, SLG, and wOBA when a Red Sox has a better one than a Yankee. He thinks Tex is really close to being better than Gonzo. Unreal.
http://www.overthemonster.com/2011/8/2/2339883/complicated-numbers-say-pedey-is-pretty-good#comments
Even at OTM they're being sarcastic about Cano being the best. He's great like I said. But these WAR graphs say it all. Pedroia in over 1,100 plate appearances has accumulated a higher WAR than Cano. His UZR has been better than Cano's. His is actually a positive.
Not trying to stir things up here, but I really want PSA's opinion. I'm a huge Robbie Cano fan, but I'm also a realist.
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I'll take a look.
I need to read their site more. Even though I like it over here a lot.
"I've got three bullies over there waiting for Thursday," Rob Ryan said. "These are proven players, and that's what we need. I don't know if we win the all-hype team, I think that might have gone to somebody else, but we're going to beat their ass when we play them."
Career split stats:
Pedroia- Home .894, Away : 783
Cano- Home .828 Away: .846
Cano is the better player. Pedroia’s stupid wall at home inflates his numbers, like it does for everyone else.
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
Hitting is slightly in Cano
"I've got three bullies over there waiting for Thursday," Rob Ryan said. "These are proven players, and that's what we need. I don't know if we win the all-hype team, I think that might have gone to somebody else, but we're going to beat their ass when we play them."
Sorry about that comment computer spazzing out.
Hitting – Cano, slightly
baserunning – Pedroia
defense – Pedroia
That’s my thought so reason I think Pedroia is better. Why not look at career wRC+. It’s park adjusted?
Cano – 118
Pedroia – 124
"I've got three bullies over there waiting for Thursday," Rob Ryan said. "These are proven players, and that's what we need. I don't know if we win the all-hype team, I think that might have gone to somebody else, but we're going to beat their ass when we play them."
I can't type today.
That’s my thought of reasoning as to why I think Pedroia is better.
"I've got three bullies over there waiting for Thursday," Rob Ryan said. "These are proven players, and that's what we need. I don't know if we win the all-hype team, I think that might have gone to somebody else, but we're going to beat their ass when we play them."
you can't possibly park adjust for the stupid wall.
The baserunning and defense are only marginally in Pedroia’s favor. The hitting is much more in Cano’s favor given he doesnt’ play 82 games with the big stupid wall.
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
I wouldn't even put defence in Pedroia's favour
Sure, maybe he can GET to more balls, but Cano can actually get some tough outs with that arm of his.
Getting to more balls is kind of the goal.
"Now I've had everything except the thrill of watching Babe Ruth play."
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Aug 2, 2011 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
And I'll pause this myself, thank you.
"Now I've had everything except the thrill of watching Babe Ruth play."
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Aug 2, 2011 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
bhaha
"I've got three bullies over there waiting for Thursday," Rob Ryan said. "These are proven players, and that's what we need. I don't know if we win the all-hype team, I think that might have gone to somebody else, but we're going to beat their ass when we play them."
ahahahaha
So now the guys in the subway are saying Jesus is coming on October 21, 2011, but that would mean he wouldn't be on the playoff roster, let alone be eligible for it. I really don't know where these guys are getting their information from...
True.
I know you posted the away #‘s and Cano’s looked better, but what about the short porch?
"I've got three bullies over there waiting for Thursday," Rob Ryan said. "These are proven players, and that's what we need. I don't know if we win the all-hype team, I think that might have gone to somebody else, but we're going to beat their ass when we play them."
Take a look at home / away splits
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by Chris McKeown on Aug 2, 2011 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Yea I saw them.
I know Cano’s the better hitter, but Pedroia’s no slouch at the plate. Plus his defense is better. Just my reasoning.
"I've got three bullies over there waiting for Thursday," Rob Ryan said. "These are proven players, and that's what we need. I don't know if we win the all-hype team, I think that might have gone to somebody else, but we're going to beat their ass when we play them."
Also, Cano absolutely RAKES at Fenway Park. Free’s right, Cano doesn’t have the wall or deep gaps to use 81 times a year. If he did, it’d be incredible.
He’s 85 for 232 (.366), .393 OBP, .608 SLG, 11 homers and 48 RBI. 1.001 OPS.
Damn.
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things." - Joe Paterno
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by Chris McKeown on Aug 2, 2011 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions
CANO!!
A. I don’t really see why it’s important to compare their WAR at each age when we’re looking at careers overall?
B. Just looking at the hitting stats, Cano is much more productive. Especially when you consider that Pedroia has the wall. All he has to do is hit the ball 300 ft and he has an automatic hit.
C. Cano is a gold glover, and deserving of it. Forgetting UZR… Cano makes the tough plays.
D. Cano is less consistent from year to year, but I don’t think you can hold that against him, especially when Pedroia misses lots of games due to injury.
E. I know this isn’t what the post is about, but I also think Cano has much greater potential still.
Cano is a year older.
"I've got three bullies over there waiting for Thursday," Rob Ryan said. "These are proven players, and that's what we need. I don't know if we win the all-hype team, I think that might have gone to somebody else, but we're going to beat their ass when we play them."
Ok I just don't think that matters when we're talking about overall careers
For example, Randy Johnson didn’t accumulate 20 wins until he was 27. Carl Pavano got to 20 when he was 24. Doesn’t mean he’s better.
Ok. Maybe a bad example, but I’m just trying to make a point lol.
You said potential. Usually has to do with older age.
Cano’s 29. He’s hit his peak and is in the middle of it.
"I've got three bullies over there waiting for Thursday," Rob Ryan said. "These are proven players, and that's what we need. I don't know if we win the all-hype team, I think that might have gone to somebody else, but we're going to beat their ass when we play them."
Cano is not that good defensively.
Strong throws across his body? You bet. Quick double plays? Sure. But he goes to his left about as well as Ann Coulter. And you can’t compare WAR and then discount UZR, because one is a component of the other.
by Briceratops on Aug 2, 2011 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think it makes sense lol
Anyways, I didn’t actually compare WAR.
Sounds good to me.
"I've got three bullies over there waiting for Thursday," Rob Ryan said. "These are proven players, and that's what we need. I don't know if we win the all-hype team, I think that might have gone to somebody else, but we're going to beat their ass when we play them."
Cano OBVIOUSLY cuz of the Home Run Derby!!!!!
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things." - Joe Paterno
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Forget the rest of the arguments!
THIS!! It’s like the same as winning the slam dunk contest.
"I've got three bullies over there waiting for Thursday," Rob Ryan said. "These are proven players, and that's what we need. I don't know if we win the all-hype team, I think that might have gone to somebody else, but we're going to beat their ass when we play them."
Cano is likely to be the better offensive player (although Pedroia is having a tremendous season this year), but Pedroia has always been the better defender. Overall, it’s pretty close to a wash, with both of them being really, really good.
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I guess no one's clearly better than the other.
"I've got three bullies over there waiting for Thursday," Rob Ryan said. "These are proven players, and that's what we need. I don't know if we win the all-hype team, I think that might have gone to somebody else, but we're going to beat their ass when we play them."
Chase Utley?
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Aug 2, 2011 5:08 PM EDT reply actions
Injuries have made me make him out.
He’s tops again once I see the constant production again.
"I've got three bullies over there waiting for Thursday," Rob Ryan said. "These are proven players, and that's what we need. I don't know if we win the all-hype team, I think that might have gone to somebody else, but we're going to beat their ass when we play them."
Grit
Cano’s lazy and doesn’t hustle. Pedroia is the little engine that could and overcame all odds.
Is this even a question?
CALL UP JESUS MONTERO!
Sigh.
Cano is not clearly better than Peedie if that’s what you’re getting at.
"I've got three bullies over there waiting for Thursday," Rob Ryan said. "These are proven players, and that's what we need. I don't know if we win the all-hype team, I think that might have gone to somebody else, but we're going to beat their ass when we play them."
That means nothing.
That year was weak.
"I've got three bullies over there waiting for Thursday," Rob Ryan said. "These are proven players, and that's what we need. I don't know if we win the all-hype team, I think that might have gone to somebody else, but we're going to beat their ass when we play them."
Thought Youk shouldve got it over Pedroia
Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.
"Even ESPN is using these stats"
That's good enough for me!
I bet it's good to be playing again, huh?
What if he said "Minka Kelly uses these stats"
Would that be good enough?
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Great article on it here:
http://riveraveblues.com/2011/07/the-great-cano-vs-pedroia-debate-51934/
take a look
Section 203 Row 15 Seat 1
Put Cano in a Red Sox uniform and you have a unanimous MVP.
Sergio Mitre sucks.
Xavier10, RAGE filled comments 24/7
Guys who try to push Boston right handed hitters as better than their other
major league counterparts lost me in 1965.
Right handed Felix Mantilla played 11 years in the major leagues and had
only 89 home runs.
Felix Mantilla had 48 of those home runs in 2 years playing Boston.
58 HRs in years playing in Atlanta
Same story for 2B Davey Johnson. He had 136 HRs in 13 seasons.
58 HRs in just 2 seasons playing @ “The Launching Pad” in Atlanta.
Same goes for former Yankee 3B Clete Boyer. He only hit 20 HRs in
one season out of 16 years in the major leagues. In 1967 he hit 26 HRs
with Atlanta.
That why I don’t think much of Hank Aaron’s HR record.
END OF STORY!!!!!!
If you’ve been following baseball for at least 45 years, you should know how arbitration works.
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things." - Joe Paterno
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by Chris McKeown on Aug 2, 2011 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions
what does his comment have to do with Cano vs. Pedroia?
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
Forget about the right post, is he even on the right blog?
Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.
LOL.
"I've got three bullies over there waiting for Thursday," Rob Ryan said. "These are proven players, and that's what we need. I don't know if we win the all-hype team, I think that might have gone to somebody else, but we're going to beat their ass when we play them."
Because if I hear him suggest that the Yankees sign Starlin Castro or Elvis Andrus after this season one more time, the banhammer might make an appearance.
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things." - Joe Paterno
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by Chris McKeown on Aug 3, 2011 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
There are only so many times you can be told something that can’t be further from the truth…
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things." - Joe Paterno
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by Chris McKeown on Aug 3, 2011 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Using Park Factors, Fenway is very consistently a good hitter’s park, but because of the ease of hitting doubles, not home runs. But, to come back to the original point, Pedroia has 122 doubles in 1319 home PA and 72 doubles in 1301 away PA.
The wall is definitely perfect for his swing, even if it does rob a few line drives of being home runs.
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On WFAN 660 (AM), both Whitey Ford & Bill Skowron were interview
a couple of years back & were asked what Mantle would do in
Atlanta. They both agreed in stating that Mantle would have had
60 HRs by the All Star break.
When I was a teen ager, I saw Mantle 2 groud rule doubles into
the 440 ft marker. I also saw him hit a ball over the 22ft wall in centerfield
at the 461 ft marker.
Mantle did it with a dead ball and against pitcher throwing off of an
elevated mound.
I do respect the hitting accomplishments of lefties Yazstremski & Ted Williams, though.
Don’t want to hear about the hitting prowness of right handed Boston
hitters.
Okay gramps time to go back to the home.
"I've got three bullies over there waiting for Thursday," Rob Ryan said. "These are proven players, and that's what we need. I don't know if we win the all-hype team, I think that might have gone to somebody else, but we're going to beat their ass when we play them."
Mantle played a long time after the deadball era ended
So now the guys in the subway are saying Jesus is coming on October 21, 2011, but that would mean he wouldn't be on the playoff roster, let alone be eligible for it. I really don't know where these guys are getting their information from...
A couple years back, Mike Francesa on WFAN said that ANDY PETTITTE IS A STAHTING PITCHA!
So now the guys in the subway are saying Jesus is coming on October 21, 2011, but that would mean he wouldn't be on the playoff roster, let alone be eligible for it. I really don't know where these guys are getting their information from...
did he start for the yankees
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
he was a starting pitcher
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
Cano is awesomer.
Duh.
Unless you're a pitcher or Gustavo Molina, kindly SWING THE BAT and ignore the Binder's bunt signal.
My point made earlier is simply that Pedroia’s numbers are
inflated by his home ballpark,
Examples like Mantilla, Davey Johnson, & Clete Boyer were
meant to support my arguement that players who have spent
10 or more years in obscurity can still become power hitters in
certain ballparks.
you kept saying Atlanta and I think you meant Boston
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by seton hall and steelers on Aug 3, 2011 12:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Pedroia's home/road splits aren't as bad as Teixeira's as a Yankee
Home – (809 AB) .289 AVG/.391 OBP/.588 SLG (12.84 AB/HR)
Road – (823 AB) .248 AVG/.343 OBP/.459 SLG (20.07 AB/HR)
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Aug 7, 2011 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Who’s the better player? Cano
Who’s put up better numbers? Cano, when you take into account the Pedroia plays half his games in Fenway.
Who’s had the greater career? Pedroia
They both have 1 world series ring and 3 all star appearances but Pedroia has an MVP and Cano doesn’t.
Home of the Jared Jeffries Shot Tracker
So if Cano is a petter player, and has better numbers, why is Pedroia’s career better?
Cause he has an MVP? Pedroia wasn’t even the best player on his team that season.
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by Frank Campagnola on Aug 3, 2011 2:20 AM EDT up reply actions
If you take the average of fWAR and bWAR, call it aWAR for fun, Cano is at 24.55 for his career, and Pedroia at 24.25. So yeah, they are really close. Both sites agree almost exactly on Pedroia’s defense, but they disagree on Cano’s. Fangraphs has him at -4.2 wins on defense over his career, and BR has him at +3 wins.
Taking that into account, I think they are very close overall. Cano is the better offensive player, and Pedroia the better defensive player. In regards to the stats this year, I would expect Pedroia’s numbers to fall in the last 2 months of the season because he’s been on fire for 3 months and is due to cool off a bit, while I expect Cano to heat up.
So now the guys in the subway are saying Jesus is coming on October 21, 2011, but that would mean he wouldn't be on the playoff roster, let alone be eligible for it. I really don't know where these guys are getting their information from...
What do you think accounts for the major difference in Cano’s fielding WAR between the two sites?
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things." - Joe Paterno
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by Chris McKeown on Aug 3, 2011 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Fangraphs uses UZR, which absolutely kills Cano. The other advanced defensive stats are much kinder to him, though. DRS has him at -.8 wins over his career, and TZL actually has him at +.8 wins. I’m pretty sure that BR uses DRS for their WAR calculations. DRS and UZR agree almost exactly about Pedroia, but disagree on Cano.
Since neither UZR or DRS are perfect and both benefit from more data, it’s better to combine the two and take their average than to use just one of them. So, if you do that, you find that Cano and Pedroia have almost the exact same career WAR, which Cano having more offensive value, and Pedroia having more defensive value. This is how I see them, it’s hard to argue that Cano is a better fielder than Pedroia, he’s just not. At the same time, however, Cano has been the better hitter, especially when you take home ballparks into account.
So now the guys in the subway are saying Jesus is coming on October 21, 2011, but that would mean he wouldn't be on the playoff roster, let alone be eligible for it. I really don't know where these guys are getting their information from...
Oh, and let me just add this: I think Pedroia will have more injury problems throughout his career. We might get annoyed at Cano for not diving for balls or always hustling, but he has stayed healthy. Pedroia dives for everything, which is what gets him so much praise for being “gritty,” but it will start to wear on his body, and he will break down earlier than Cano.
So now the guys in the subway are saying Jesus is coming on October 21, 2011, but that would mean he wouldn't be on the playoff roster, let alone be eligible for it. I really don't know where these guys are getting their information from...
Davey Johnson & Clete Boyer had career HR seasons in the Launching Pad
@ Atlanta. Felix Mantilla had his career HR season in Boston.
Mantle’s powers was in the alleys. Yankee Stadium was 461 in center, left
center was 440, and right center 457. Very few people had that kind of power
to reach those markers. Pull hitters was the way to go in the Old Yankee stadium.
Put Padroia in Colorado, he becomes a power hitter, put him in Shea Stadium &
he becomes a singles hitter.
power vs obp
cano has a higher average, which likely leads to the more rbis. what do you want from a batter? get on base and driven in, or be the guy who drives in the runs. which has more value? i personally would rather have cano as a batter, and there is no doubt that pedrioa benefits from that stupid wall. defense im not sure. i hate UZR for infielders, and i havent really seen the midget play defense often. regardless i think we can all agree that cano is an above average fielder at the least.
i would take cano personally.
עם ישראל חי
both get the same result
"I've got three bullies over there waiting for Thursday," Rob Ryan said. "These are proven players, and that's what we need. I don't know if we win the all-hype team, I think that might have gone to somebody else, but we're going to beat their ass when we play them."
Pedroia is better defensively, no doubt. Cano has the stronger arm, but Pedroia’s range is so much more than Cano’s. I think it’s debatable if Cano is an average defensive 2B or not, but keep in mind that even an average major league 2B is really really good on defense.
So now the guys in the subway are saying Jesus is coming on October 21, 2011, but that would mean he wouldn't be on the playoff roster, let alone be eligible for it. I really don't know where these guys are getting their information from...
It's gotta be Cano
I’ve never heard Joe Morgan say Pedroia’s gonna win a batting title one day.
I bet it's good to be playing again, huh?
by david d on Aug 5, 2011 2:54 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Valid!
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things." - Joe Paterno
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by Chris McKeown on Aug 5, 2011 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions
The issue of road splits with the 2 is exaggerated in the discussion here
because everyone is talking about OPS splits. But Cano is inferior to Pedroia in OBP skill, and if you believe in a linear weights breakdown of runs then OBP should be considered more important than slugging, as in wOBA.
By wOBA Pedroia’s road results are 0.351 (nearly identical to Cano in Yankee stadium). Cano on the road is 0.361. That is a very slight difference and is much less than you would expect from OPS. Further, Pedroia has been better by wOBA in the last 2 years on the road than at home. Lastly he is younger-and since they are both moving through their prime years, these three facts make the offense basically a wash. Defensively all metrics basically say Pedroia is clearly better, as you migh simply guess by watching the two.
Thus, Cano is a great 2B and is not that far behind Pedroia, but it is not a wash.
green monster argument.
why don’t you compare road stats only. that will eliminate your green monster padding.
Doesn't Cano
have the benefit of a short porch in Yankee Stadium?
I bet it's good to be playing again, huh?
But only barely better than Pedroia does
Pedroia on the road is the same as Cano at home. Cano on the road is worse than Pedroia at home. Overall Pedroia’s wOBA is 0.370 to Cano’s 0.357. Cano is really not a better offensive player than Pedroia is.
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