Can the Yankees Develop Young Pitchers?
by Travis G on Aug 14, 2011 12:25 PM EDT
in New York Yankees Analysis
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PrintThe Yankees haven't developed a successful starter of their own since Andy Pettitte 15 years ago. Some of their prospects have had success with other clubs, but none have sustained it in pinstripes. Why is that? Is Phil Hughes going to change that? Does it concern you in regards to Manny Banuelos and Dellin Betances?
Ed Valentine wonders aloud at SBN NY -
There are plenty of other examples of the Yankees' follies with young arms around the big leagues. The Yankees portrayed Mark Melancon as a future closer, then shipped him to Houston when he wasn't the second coming of Mariano Rivera right away. This season Melancon leads the woeful Astros with 11 saves and has a 3.31 ERA in 53 games.
Tyler Clippard made the All-Star team for Washington as a reliever, a place in which the Yankees admittedly never even though to try him. Pretty amazing since it seems they try everyone else in the bullpen. Jeff Karstens and Daniel McCutcheon are pitching well for Pittsburgh, Karstens having racked up nine wins.
Since we now have an off-day, discuss.
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David Roberston.
also Melancon got a share of chances, he looked like Sergio Mitre in all of them. Clippard and Karstens were average at best when they were here.
I Don’t miss any of them and I don’t blame Cash for getting rid of any of them either.
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
I dispute that Melancon got his share of chances
He got into 15 games in 2009 and 2010, for a total of just over 20 IP. He had an ERA of 4.87, an ERA+ of 96, and a WHIP of 1.475. Not good numbers by any means. Now look at a guy who had 25 appearances with an ERA of 5.34, an ERA+ of 84, and a WHIP of 1.451 in 2009. Who is the guy more likely to get demoted, DFA’d, traded, or buried in the AAA mop role? The second guy? Congratulations, we just DFA’d David Robertson.
Melancon’s numbers don’t even get into his usage. I remember him coming into a game, then not pitching for a week and getting rocked or having trouble throwing strikes, then getting sent down to AAA. That’s not a good way to break a guy into the majors.
I agree that Melancon didn’t make the Yankees keep him, and we don’t miss him that much – we’ve got enough young arms in the bullpen. But they didn’t give him a real chance, and that’s a problem.
by long time listener on Aug 14, 2011 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
There was definitely a period of time in which Melancon was getting Noesi’d where he’d just sit in the pen and rot for weeks at a time and then not be sharp when he’d finally get a chance to pitch. I doubt we’ll ever think of him as a huge loss, though.
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Well, we did miss out on an M&M nickname for him
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Aug 14, 2011 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't know about that last part
Mo isn’t going to last forever, obviously. I’d be surprised if he pitches past his current contract. So who takes over as closer in 2013? Probably Robertson, and I have faith in him, but I wouldn’t mind having another good young arm around, since you never can tell what’s going to happen with relievers. And I’d especially love to have a guy who had great numbers in the minor leagues like Melancon, and see how much that translates into big-league success.
by long time listener on Aug 14, 2011 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Meh, I wouldn’t worry about it, but I never worry about the bullpen. We’ve got a ton of SP prospects and a limited number of rotation spots available. We’re going to see a fair few of them get pen’d or traded to fill the needs of the team. I think the bullpen will be fine, even if we don’t chase any free agent closers after Mo retires.
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you're probably right
I just feel like we let a pretty good candidate get away without really giving him a chance. Probably how Tim Pawlenty supporters feel today. (Too soon? Too politicky?)
by long time listener on Aug 14, 2011 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Nah
It’s a Minnesota blast, and those are always acceptable here.
Usqueadbaugham! Anam muck an dhoul ! Did ye drink me doornail?
it's not
They just feel like he never got a chance.
by long time listener on Aug 14, 2011 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Well he did have a chance.
It’s his own fault that he pussed out in front of Romney and Bachmann just absolutely destroyed him in the last “debate.”
well he only stuck around for one "vote"
I’m sure hardcore Pawlenty supporters would have wanted him to stick around until the early primaries and caucuses, at the least, and see if he couldn’t have a better showing.
by long time listener on Aug 14, 2011 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah I don't know why he put so much stock in the Ames strawpoll.
Considering the favorite for the nomintion placed close to last.
he really hurt his bid when he said that "sarah palin is qualified to be president "
by jadedeed2327 on Aug 14, 2011 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah,
like the current one was soooo qualified. You see where that got us…
I bet it's good to be playing again, huh?
I was right
It was too politicky.
by long time listener on Aug 14, 2011 9:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I love the picture!
[]Call-Up Jesus
[]Curtis Granderson/Mark Teixeria for 2011 AL MVP
[]CC For Cy Young
[]Ivan Nova for Rookie of the Year
[]Fire Joe Girardi
by BrettGardnerLF on Aug 14, 2011 12:34 PM EDT reply actions
yup. I hate him.
[]Call-Up Jesus
[]Curtis Granderson/Mark Teixeria for 2011 AL MVP
[]CC For Cy Young
[]Ivan Nova for Rookie of the Year
[]Fire Joe Girardi
by BrettGardnerLF on Aug 14, 2011 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
it seems we developed all of them
and notice none of them are pitching in the AL east anymore…..it isnt easy to pitch here
if we should be accused of anything it should be shipping them away too early…but to be honest the only 1 i would like to have back is Clippard.
by SLAUGHTERHOUSE on Aug 14, 2011 12:35 PM EDT reply actions
Clippard???
What about Kennedy and Lilly, or were they not from our system?
kennedy we gave in the granderson trade, and lilly wasnt that great until he went to national league and was decent
by jadedeed2327 on Aug 14, 2011 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
The Yankees got Lilly from the Expos for the Fat Toad (RIP)
That being said, I thought Lilly was a solid mid-rotation guy that showed that he could keep his composure in NY. I’d certainly would have wanted to keep him instead of his replacement.
Usqueadbaugham! Anam muck an dhoul ! Did ye drink me doornail?
did we trade lilly or get anything for him, i dont remember him being that great here when he was on yankees
did we use him as starter
by jadedeed2327 on Aug 14, 2011 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
We got Jeff Weaver from the Tigers as part of the trade that sent Lilly to the A's.
He was used as a starter, and you’re right, he wasn’t great. But he was still developing (2001 was his first significant year in the bigs,) and I don’t think you have to be great to contribute as a number 3 or 4. Plus, he’s a lefty.
At the risk of offending the statistics gods with SSS, I’ll note that his stats showed a marked improvement from 2001 to 2002. According to Baseball Reference, he went from an ERA+ of 84 in 120.2 IP to 130 in 76.2 IP (or 120 in 100.0 IP for the whole season.) His WHIP dropped from 1.467 to 1.057 (or 1.110 for the year.) His FIP has never been great, but the 4.48 in 2002 is nearly identical to his career level 4.45. I’d say he was showing clear signs of the pitcher he’s become: the Yankees just thought Weaver was an upgrade.
Usqueadbaugham! Anam muck an dhoul ! Did ye drink me doornail?
One thing that's forgotten
Lilly was interested in rejoining the Yanks when he was a free-agent after the 2006 season but instead they got Kei Igawa… whoops.
"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth
Yeah, but there is no way
Lilly would have ever matched what Igawa has accomplished. I mean, all the records, for God’s sake!
I bet it's good to be playing again, huh?
Can the Yankees Develop Young Pitchers?
Yes… and No.
Yes, they can, but with the “win now or else” way of doing things, and the fact that the fan base would raise holy hell if we don’t make the playoffs, we don’t have the luxury of waiting on young arms to develop. With the available finances it’s easier to get already successful arms via free agency or simply trade prospects for one.
I bet it's good to be playing again, huh?
by david d on Aug 14, 2011 12:35 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
+1
That’s the answer. If you’re a starter who’s not solid right out of the gate (like Pettitte, Wang, Nova?) you’re not long for NY…maybe Phil Hughes is the exception to the rule…and even then, excluding 2010 he has not been that bad as a starter. Just not nearly good enough for NY.
by steelerwheeler on Aug 15, 2011 9:21 AM EDT up reply actions
Kennedy was a top prospect and was traded.
Melancon had great stuff and was rated like Robertson,
but they felt Robertson was enuf.
Yes, Yanks had young pitchers with good skill sets, but
Cashman kept falling in love with Vazsquez & traded their top
minor league pitching prospect in Arodys Vizcaino who is only
20 yrs old.
frankiec! I for one miss you on BB. Good to “see” you’re still around.
Best Rangers day: May 27, 1994
Worst Rangers day: April 10, 1984
by Stepan the Ice! on Aug 14, 2011 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions
but we got granderson for ian kennedy,
does anyone think these pitchers doing well in national league would be this good in american league
by jadedeed2327 on Aug 14, 2011 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Grandson?
Wasnt Granderon what we got or Austin Jackson?
It was a 3 team deal that also sent Kennedy to Arizona.
"Now I've had everything except the thrill of watching Babe Ruth play."
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Aug 14, 2011 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
we traded austin jackson and phil coke to detroit, it was a 3 team deal,
by jadedeed2327 on Aug 14, 2011 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Robot...
"in order that you will write correctly of wat you really see if you dint go around with your eyes shut"
Cricket blog?
It’s a minor miracle that Karstens gets anyone out
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by Jedi Master A-Rod on Aug 14, 2011 12:52 PM EDT reply actions
This.
"Everything looks nicer when you win. The girls are prettier, the cigars taste better. The trees are greener."—Billy Martin
by Chris McKeown on Aug 14, 2011 1:03 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I think the issue is that most teams can toy with players and try and turn mediocre arms into good arms. The al east is a tough place to make a new pitcher and in 2013 we could have 3 homegrown starters. Were gonna need to grow starters better because I seriously doubt that cain or hammels will hit free agency.
Hideki Matsui: "Kick ass. Pop champagne. And get some ho's."
by Meatface on Aug 14, 2011 1:00 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I miss Andy :(
It is pretty amazing that he was the last SP to come from our system, stay with the team, and be successful. I’d like to see Hughes really improve and stay consistent and healthy. Joba was never meant to be a starter, considering how lights out he was in 2007 as a reliever. We got Nova from somewhere else, right?
"Red Sox Nation? What a bunch of bullshit that is." - Hank Steinbrenner
by Ella Grace on Aug 14, 2011 1:25 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Joba was meant to be a starter
The Yankees just never gave him a real opportunity.
CALL UP JESUS MONTERO!
by nyyrocks29 on Aug 14, 2011 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This.
Joba was always meant to be a starter. The Yankees screwed up and made him a reliever.
"Now I've had everything except the thrill of watching Babe Ruth play."
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Aug 14, 2011 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions
You guys really think so?
I don’t know. Finding a reliever who can throw strikes at 97-99 mph consistently is incredibly rare. As a starter, the velocity goes way down because it has to. Not waaaay down, but low-mid 90s for sure. I guess I really valued having him to go to in the bullpen, but hindsight’s 20/20. Now we have D-Rob and (while some weren’t/aren’t thrilled about it) Soriano to go to in later innings, so perhaps you’re right, that they should have allowed Joba more time to transition to a starter and kept him there, rather than have him go back and forth, but isn’t that what they’re doing to Hughes now? He started in the pen, made the move to starter, and now he will undoubtedly be moved back to the pen sometime in the near future. And then next season, he’ll probably be back in the rotation.
"Red Sox Nation? What a bunch of bullshit that is." - Hank Steinbrenner
by Ella Grace on Aug 14, 2011 2:32 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Joba was one of the top prospects in baseball.
He was a starter his entire life. What would you rather have: Him pitching 80 quality innings a season, or 200 quality innings a season? Having him go pen-pen-starter-starter-pen-pen I believe is one of the reasons his development has been so fucked up. The same could be said for Hughes.
I didn't know he had been a starter his whole life.
That makes a huge difference. My bad!
"Red Sox Nation? What a bunch of bullshit that is." - Hank Steinbrenner
by Ella Grace on Aug 14, 2011 2:41 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
You're not alone
I think a lot of the people who vehemently believe he should’ve stayed a reliever didn’t know that. (Keep in mind his whole life in the Yankees’ minor league system was the four months before he was called up. I’d only known him from being the guy you didn’t want to face from Nebraska in the Big XII.)
Usqueadbaugham! Anam muck an dhoul ! Did ye drink me doornail?
Four months? Damn.
See, now that I know that, I think that sucks. Why was he moved to the pen in the first place?
"Red Sox Nation? What a bunch of bullshit that is." - Hank Steinbrenner
by Ella Grace on Aug 14, 2011 3:17 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
You're kidding, right??
"Red Sox Nation? What a bunch of bullshit that is." - Hank Steinbrenner
by Ella Grace on Aug 14, 2011 3:25 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Well that's the reason he stayed there.
In 2007 they needed an arm in the pen and Joba was reaching his innings limit so it made sense to have him there to end the year. It was a good move at the time but he never should have started 2008 in the bullpen like he did.
Wow.
I love PSA. I learn so much here :)
"Red Sox Nation? What a bunch of bullshit that is." - Hank Steinbrenner
by Ella Grace on Aug 14, 2011 3:36 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
They are going to do the same thing to ManBan this year.
He’s reaching his innings limit so he’ll end the year in the pen, presumably in the Bronx. As long as he starts next year I have no qualms with that decision.
The sad thing is you have to hold your breath and pray for them to not do something dumb.
"Now I've had everything except the thrill of watching Babe Ruth play."
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Aug 14, 2011 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions
what a horrible mistake....
It is to ask a supremely talented young starter to go to the pen and get out major league hitters in October. I sure do wish they let Mo Rivera stay a starter :) That Guidry fellow also was bounced around from the pen to the rotation…the Yanks really screwed him up!
Talent prevails.
by steelerwheeler on Aug 15, 2011 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions
Mariano Rivera was a failed starter.
Most relief pitchers are.
by Briceratops on Aug 15, 2011 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
With exceptions.
Some are good at both. Eckersley and Smoltz did it.
I bet it's good to be playing again, huh?
Failed? Really?
4-3, 4 Q starts, 3 excellent starts in 10 tries. Too many poor outings but 30% dominant starts for a rookie is worthy of more starts except he was way too dominant in the pen….sounds a lot like this dominant Jaba fellow in 2007…
by steelerwheeler on Aug 18, 2011 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
It is a mistake to put a talented young starter in the pen and never let him out again.
If they do that to ManBan, it WILL be a horrible mistake.
"Now I've had everything except the thrill of watching Babe Ruth play."
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Aug 15, 2011 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Because they didn't want to have to trade for Eric Gagne.
"Now I've had everything except the thrill of watching Babe Ruth play."
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Aug 14, 2011 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Do you remember when Eric Gagne had clearly supplanted Mo as the premier closer in the game?
And then when K-Rod had?
Usqueadbaugham! Anam muck an dhoul ! Did ye drink me doornail?
I remember that streak gagne had where he was dominant
by jadedeed2327 on Aug 14, 2011 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions
The Yankees needed an arm in the pen at that point, IIRC
Plus, they didn’t want to overtax his arm since he was so young.
Usqueadbaugham! Anam muck an dhoul ! Did ye drink me doornail?
That's the Joba Rules, right?
He was only allowed to throw x amount of pitches every certain number of innings? Why the hell was he rushed up to the big leagues? Why not let him spend some time in the minors developing his arm??
"Red Sox Nation? What a bunch of bullshit that is." - Hank Steinbrenner
by Ella Grace on Aug 14, 2011 3:27 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
The rush was that they needed a reliever.
This was the end of the Joe Torre era, keep in mind.
Usqueadbaugham! Anam muck an dhoul ! Did ye drink me doornail?
(And don't take this as disagreeing with your sentiment, because I agree wholeheartedly.)
Usqueadbaugham! Anam muck an dhoul ! Did ye drink me doornail?
No, I totally understood what you were saying about it.
It was more me being incredulous that we had a SP with so much talent and potential and just threw him in the pen because we needed a reliever at the time. Four months is a ridiculously short time to spend in the minors before getting called up. And then to be as lights out as he was after being called up so quickly? That’s nerves of steel right there. That actually makes me appreciate Joba more than I did before.
"Red Sox Nation? What a bunch of bullshit that is." - Hank Steinbrenner
by Ella Grace on Aug 14, 2011 3:40 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I love Torre, but no one could burn out a reliever's arm faster than him.
Obviously it worked out in the team’s favor 90% of the time (I made that number up, but you know), but it does show what a freak of nature Mo truly is. Torre freely used Mo for like, 2-3 innings even during the regular season and the man is 41 years old now and still one of the top closers in the game with ridiculous numbers. Mo refused to be Torre’d, and god bless him for it.
"Red Sox Nation? What a bunch of bullshit that is." - Hank Steinbrenner
by Ella Grace on Aug 14, 2011 3:35 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I am far from a Torre fan, but there weren't a lot of options at the time.
The issue came when they decided that he should stay in the pen forever, as opposed to being an extra arm when it was needed. I’m not sure I’ll ever forgive the organization for that.
"Now I've had everything except the thrill of watching Babe Ruth play."
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Aug 14, 2011 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I wonder if things would have been different if the media hadn’t blown up as it did over The Great Joba Debate. I think I remember the front office saying that they projected him as a starter long term in the 07-08 offseason and there was a pronounced reaction from media outlets such as ESPN, talk radio, and various tabloids.
The whole HE THROWS HARDER OUT OF THE PEN argument.
Well, duh.
"Now I've had everything except the thrill of watching Babe Ruth play."
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Aug 14, 2011 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd say Torre was the main reason there was need for an arm in the pen
But I agree with the rest. A call-up at the end of the season (especially if you weren’t going to get many more IP at AAA) shouldn’t hurt development. He was just too successful in those two months.
Usqueadbaugham! Anam muck an dhoul ! Did ye drink me doornail?
because Farnsworth sucked
Don’t forget, some portion of the blame for Joba to the pen belongs on Farnsworth. If he had done his job, the Yankees never put Joba in the pen, and things are different.
by long time listener on Aug 14, 2011 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions
The thing is, I don't think having Joba in the pen late in 2007 was a bad move.
The decision to start him in the bullpen in 2008 and 2010 were the eggregious mistakes.
me neither
Joba was fantastic in the pen. And most of the blame goes on the Yankees for not ignoring the “to teh pen!” cretins and doing the right thing with Joba. But if Farnsworth does his job in 2007, Joba finishes the year as a starter in the minor leagues and things are different. I can’t say Joba would have been a superstar, or that he wouldn’t have gotten hurt. But things would have been different.
That’s why, like other people in this thread, I have some trepidation about bringing up Banuelos to get to his innings limit in the pen. You can never have enough quality arms, especially since our schedule in September is going to be so crazy with all the rainouts. But if Banuelos comes up and does a great job in the bullpen, will he be right put back into the AAA rotation in 2012? Or with the “to teh pen” cretins sway the Yankee brass again?
by long time listener on Aug 14, 2011 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh good :)
I apologize for my ignorance of Yankees knowledge. Seriously though, I had no clue that Joba was a starter first. Now it just bugs that we got cheated out of having a young, developed SP from our system. As I said, hindsight’s 20/20, but with D-Rob and Soriano in the pen, along with Wade and Noesi, and Marte and Feliciano on the DL, I’d rather have Joba as a developed SP than a reliever (even though he most likely would have had TJS regardless).
"Red Sox Nation? What a bunch of bullshit that is." - Hank Steinbrenner
by Ella Grace on Aug 14, 2011 3:24 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Nope. He's a true Yankee
Checked his draft status thru Yahoo Sports. Not drafted at all. Must’ve been at the Yankees Dominican Republic camp.
by NYR #35 Richter on Aug 14, 2011 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought he was drafted by the Padres.
No?
"Red Sox Nation? What a bunch of bullshit that is." - Hank Steinbrenner
by Ella Grace on Aug 14, 2011 2:39 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Padres took him from the Yankees in the Rule 5 draft and then returned him.
"Now I've had everything except the thrill of watching Babe Ruth play."
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Aug 14, 2011 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh, well then I'd for sure add Nova to the list.
I know it’s his rookie year, but he has already improved so much from the beginning of the season, and he still has so much potential that if he stays healthy, and at the very least, consistent, down the road he could prove to be as important to the Yankees as Andy was. I already think we need him in our current rotation, he should have never been sent down. When he was, it was then that I realized I had become an Ivan Nova fan. He had improved so steadily that I almost didn’t even see how much he had improved and how good he had become until he got sent down and I thought, “WHY????”
"Red Sox Nation? What a bunch of bullshit that is." - Hank Steinbrenner
by Ella Grace on Aug 14, 2011 2:48 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
you could argue that we were foolish in the first place to even let him even get taken in the rule 5...
just saying…
It was after the 2008 season, in which he had a 4.36/3.37 ERA/FIP in 148 innings in High A Tampa. Definitely a long shot for the Padres to think he’d be ready to stick on a 25 man roster at that point.
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not a loss at all
"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth
has a 3.30 ERA for padres in 20 starts for padres
by jadedeed2327 on Aug 14, 2011 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions
in the NL West. in the cavernous Petco Park.
"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth
i know im just saying this is his first good year, and first year as starter
by jadedeed2327 on Aug 14, 2011 7:56 PM EDT up reply actions
This story is missing one young pitcher that looks to be the future.
What about Ivan Nova? First Yankee Rookie Pitcher with 11 Wins under his belt. Obviously that excerpt never mentions Nova. So right now this report is incorrect.
by NYR #35 Richter on Aug 14, 2011 1:42 PM EDT reply actions
Yep.
It all ended with that freak foot injury in Houston. He was great.
by NYR #35 Richter on Aug 14, 2011 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Free Agent Bombs
I think we would be better off putting more on the shoulders of our own rookies.
Instead we keep paying big for bums like McDowell, Vasquez, and Burnett.
wasnt mcdowell decent for us that year or two?
by jadedeed2327 on Aug 14, 2011 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Mussina, Cone, Wells = All free agent bums
"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth
One thing is “to develop” and another is “to have them pitch with them in the big leagues”, the Yanks have developed pitchers like Melancon, Coke, Choate, Kennedy, Karstens and a few more that have been pitching in the majors since they were traded, so, yeah, they were developed in the Yankees minors…
BUT, since all of them played well in the NYY minors and not in the Majors, i think the “culprit” might be at the big level, be it coaches that ask pitchers to change what they had been doing at AA or AAA, pressure, or lack of offensive talent in the minors that in turn makes regular pitchers look like aces.
What in my opinion could be the biggest “culprit” is… coaches in the big leagues, Yankees saw that Hughes was succesful as a middle-long relief and asked him to once again be a starter, messed up with him and now he is trying to regain his form after two seasons. Joba pitched well as a starter in 2009 until they decided not to allow him to go more than X number of pitches (had a 3.58 ERA and after that, everything went down hill).
The Yankees handled Joba and Hughes with a pair of cristal tweezers, and since then, neither of them has been good, they treated Kennedy the same way, traded him and now its pitching very well in a hitters park, pitching 100+ pitches in 24 of 25 starts, and lasting 7+ in 14 of them. By comparisson, our big boy Sabathia has pitched 7+ in 19 out of 26 games, and Hughes lifetime has 11 games of 7+ innings pitched in 66 starts.
I know that hughes makes lots of pitches and sometimes with 80-90 in the 5th he won’t be able to go 7 because he would be throwing 135 or so pitches to end the 7th, and on this day and age of overpaid players who can’t even throw 120 pitches, that would be a no no.
But i also think that nowadays pitchers know that they only need to pitch 5 or 6 innings to let the relievers deal with the game, and hopefully win, so they make a lot of pitches trying to strike out opposing batters, instead of doing it old-school and trying to make the batter ground out or bat an inoffensive fly out.
by Miguel Angel Barajas on Aug 14, 2011 2:26 PM EDT reply actions
I was discussing this very issue with a drunk old guy at a bar on Friday night
The Yankees don’t let anyone fail at the big league level. You have to come up and have success right away, or there’s no patience. And it’s not entirely true that they haven’t developed a good starting pitcher since Pettitte – they did it with Wang, before he got hurt. But Wang came up and was good right away, so the Yankees kept him around. If he had struggled, they would have gotten rid of him. And this doesn’t just apply to pitchers – how many position players have the Yankees developed? Cano, but he also had success right away. It took forever for them to give Gardner a chance, and they still look at him as a platoon player to a certain extent.
I understand the expectation and the need to win, but I have little faith that they’ll develop Banuelos, Betances, or Jesus properly if those guys come up and don’t succeed right away. And that’s worrisome for the future. The Yankees spend plenty of money and make some great moves, but they wouldn’t be anywhere near as successful as they have been over the last 15 years were it not for home grown guys like Jeter, Mo, Pettitte, Bernie and Posada. (Also, note that the last two took some time to develop in the big leagues, whereas the first three had a lot of success early on.)
by long time listener on Aug 14, 2011 4:10 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
It's pretty much for this reason that Jesus isn't already up
I’ve mentioned this before, but I’d say for almost every other club in the majors, if they had a prospect like Jesus in the minors, he would be up and in the starting lineup at the beginning of the season.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Aug 14, 2011 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions
I've given up on Jesus 2011 already
I’m legitimately worried that Jesus will not be on the Opening Day roster in 2012. Which, barring something tragic, would be a fireable offense.
by long time listener on Aug 14, 2011 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed
I also agree with you concern for how they handle Man-Ban and Betances. If they do come up and do really well in the bullpen, you know there will be the thought of keeping them there. Hell, look at all the debate lately about putting Hughes back in the pen as well.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Aug 14, 2011 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions
It IS scary
a lot of Yankee fans out there still automatically assume “prospects are suspects.” My father in law (who I love) is one. He still didn’t trust GGBG to be an everyday player coming into this year. I explained to him that it often took him awhile to adjust to each new level in the minors and that his game is predicated on speed, OBP and defense, not BA and HR. He said “you can’t steal firstbase.” I replied that GGBG could take a walk, “Juan Pierre with patience.”
He was also a Joba To The Pen guy because it’s all he knew of Joba. Us hardcore fans knew that Joba had been a SP his whole life until August of ‘07. The mainstream media pundits either dont care or dont have the time to research these guys’ backgrounds or they wouldn’t have pushed so hard for Joba To The Pen. I’m going off on a tangent here, but the point I’m trying to get across is that the Yankees’ FO cannot be swayed by public/media opinion, especially when that opinion is influenced by people like Mike Francesa and George King (NY Post), who are both ignorant and arrogant.
I think Manny to the pen is a potentially smart and helpful move IF the FO knows he’s a SP longterm. And there cant be any interfering from the Bros. Stein, Randy Levine or any other executives. Obviously there’s risk, because of morons like Francesa. You almost don’t want him to be too good, or god forbid he’ll be Joba’d.
And yes, Jesus would have started the season with almost every other ML team. It’s patently ridiculous that the Yanks are in a prime position for a C/DH (no production from either spot for most of the year), yet refuse to promote an elite prospect, who’s had 900 PA in AAA, who would fill that very position!
by Travis G on Aug 14, 2011 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
It's all of this
and it’s par for the course. Do any of us really expect anything else?
I bet it's good to be playing again, huh?
Since this has kind of become the Off Day Thread,
Seattle beat Boston 5-3.
:)
"Red Sox Nation? What a bunch of bullshit that is." - Hank Steinbrenner
by Ella Grace on Aug 14, 2011 6:32 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
w00t!
I stopped following after the Youkilis homer.
The idiot formerly known as pkyankeefan! Now in Technicolour!
by Hasan Paliwala on Aug 14, 2011 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, that annoyed me.
I hate him. Youkilis, Pedroia, Ortiz, Papelbon, Ellsbury, and Beckett make up about 95% of my Boston hate combined. Everyone else can just suck it or whatever.
Oh, and PS: Wakefield was the SP, so he’s 0 for 4 in attempts at his 200th win :)
"Red Sox Nation? What a bunch of bullshit that is." - Hank Steinbrenner
by Ella Grace on Aug 14, 2011 7:04 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Caption
“I CAME”
Comments full of insight and snark 24/7
**** Boston!
by Xavier10 on Aug 14, 2011 8:44 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
It's one thing to develop pitchers in the NL Central and West
Another thing in the AL East. The Yankees need to show patience, but I’m not that annoyed about Karstens and Kennedy doing decent in the NL.
by upstateNYYFan1984 on Aug 14, 2011 8:45 PM EDT reply actions
i bet they wouldnt be as good in american league, even moseley was dominating the nl
by jadedeed2327 on Aug 14, 2011 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions
+10
I was coming on this board to post exactly this…
The Al East chews up and spits out pitchers that are great. Take a look at the list of “great” pitchers who couldn’t pitch in the AL East, let alone young ones and its easy to see that 1 in 15 years actually isn’t too too bad.
by JerseyGuy77 on Aug 14, 2011 10:14 PM EDT up reply actions
the national league has weaker hitters and no dh
we can always get these guys back if we wanted too with the money we have
by jadedeed2327 on Aug 14, 2011 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions
whos the loss?
i honestly dont see anybody you just mentioned in this article as being a huge loss…..
in a word...no
Travis g sed it all. The FO, (most)fans and media are only worried about winning it all every year. Not a bad goal to have , but id say a wee bit unrealistic (see 2001-2008). the FO worries more about ticket sales & coprorate sponsorships than they do development. Its really quite simple: MONEY. Sad to say but its the Yankee way and its been that way for a while. The majors are littered with Yankee prospects who either werent good enough in the short audition they got or were shipped away before even being given a chance. I for one would welcome the sight of Jesus, ManBan, Betances, Warren on the major league roster at the beginning of next year but I wont hold my breath. Im trying to hold on to the last bit of confidence in the FO
by PinstripesSince'78 on Aug 14, 2011 11:17 PM EDT reply actions
Ivan Nova?
Drafted 2004, right now arguably #2 behind C.C. Maybe a little early to draw any conclusions, but definitely has the potential.
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