A Nice Place To Visit: I'mGivingYouAThought
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jul 12, 2011 12:33 PM EDT
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PrintI just read this article on WFAN, and it finally got me inspired to write a post I've been wanting to write for a while now, but have just been too lazy to write. Now, I don't agree with the title that it stinks to be a Yankees fan because, despite all my problems with the organization, I still love this team. However, the article brings up a point I've been thinking about for a while now; is winning all the time bad?
More after the jump...
For those non-nerds out there, the title of my fanpost refers to an episode of The Twilight Zone in which a character named Rocky gets shot and finds himself in what he thinks is heaven, where he winds up winning all the time and getting everything he wants. Soon, he finds that winning all the time is boring and annoying and realizes that he's in hell. There are days when I feel like that with the Yankees. Okay, I won't go as far as to say "I'm in hell" because the Yankees win all the time, but for me personally, it's been kinda disheartening.
One of the reasons I was so excited for this season is because I did not know if we would make the playoffs this year, what with the Sox being declared the WS Champs and all, and with the Rays coming off one of their best years ever. I would get to see new, young talent come up and show what they can do, talent like Ivan Nova or maybe ONE day, Jesus Montero. It's why I love Brett Gardner so much, because I love seeing young farm talent come up and strut their skills as best they can. It's also why it infuriates me when he is platooned for Andruw Jones, a player I want to see DFA'd about a month or three ago. If you need a 4th outfielder to come up, I'd much rather see Greg Golson get a chance, and not just because his name is Greg (it does help though, it really does.) It's why I love seeing Eduardo Nunez come to the plate for the Yankees. These things are honestly what I love about baseball the most.
But it's now the All Star Break, and here we are, with a lineup that no longer has Ivan Nova pitching, but rather Freddy Garcia in his spot. From young back to old again, with Nova sent back down to the minors. Jesus Montero is still not up in the majors yet, and I have to watch Russell Martin behind the plate, which mind you isn't as bad as I thought it'd be. And now, as the trade deadline looms its hideous Youk head, I once again have a sense of dread that Cashman will trade away more top prospects for stop gaps that will help the Yankees win this year, or at least help them secure the regular season. I do respect and like the idea that the Yankees want to put a winning team on the field every year, because there are much much much worse alternatives out there, but this "win now at any cost" mentality does get annoying at times.
I look at other teams and think, if Jesus Montero was in their organization, would he already be the starting catcher? Or, if Joba Chamberlain had come up in their organization, would he have been a dominant starting pitcher? Mind you, I do not know the answers to some of these questions, but I really think that they would be. Maybe Joba wouldn't be dominant, but I think he'd be better than just a relief pitcher. I really tend to think that I wouldn't be asking these questions if the Yankees did not have the "win now at any cost" mentality. In the long run, I don't really know. I just have to hope that Nova, Man-Ban, or our other pitching prospects do not have to go through the same thing Joba did.
Like the writer said, maybe I'm just crazy. How can I actually not want the Yankees to win? It's not that I don't want them to win, because I do. And I absolutely don't believe that having a god-tier high payroll makes winning a certainty, because anything can happen. But when I see things like last year's attempt to trade Montero for a monthly Cliff Lee rental, I just sigh. Or when I see talks about trading him or other prospects for a King Felix, I just cringe. It's not that I don't think these players are good, and I totally understand the Yankees reasons for doing so. To me, if we get these players, then what's the point of watching the regular season? Again, maybe I'm crazy, but I just hate the idea of sucking up every superstar we can possibly get our hands on. I'll root for them if they come here, but still, it just takes something away from the game to me.
I definitely agree with the writer about one thing though, in that I don't think Yankees fans will ever have that same feeling of joy about making the playoffs as a team like the Reds or Brewers. I will never forget 95' or especially 96'. What makes me so happy about 96 is what tends to piss me off about now, in that we gave a lot of young talent a chance to shine, and they helped lead us to 4 WS championships. That is what got me excited about this year in Spring Training, and what will hopefully get me excited about the next couple of years, seeing young talent grow (and hopefully not seeing them traded). And the great thing about being a Yankees fan is that we have the money to keep the home grown talent if they become big.
I have the privilege of being able to watch a lot of teams play, and right now I think the most exciting team to watch is the Pittsburgh Pirates. Currently, they are only 1 game out of first place and 4 games over .500. I honestly cannot remember a time when that team wasn't at the bottom of the barrel, and now they actually have a chance to win their division. I cannot imagine the joy a Pirates fan must be feeling right now, halfway into the season. The only thing that comes to mind is again, the 96' Yankees, or maybe even the 94' Yankees before the strike. Anything can happen though.
Anyway, here we are at the All Star Break. The Yankees have the 3rd best record in the majors, and already pretty much look to be a shoe in for the postseason. And yet here I am dreading what our front office does with Jesus Montero, with Ivan Nova, with Nunez, and with our other prospects all for the sake of winning here & now, no matter the cost to the future. I'm probably alone in thinking this, but I would honestly rather see the Yankees take a chance on prospects and possibly lose then sacrifice them and possibly win. Maybe it's just the gambler in me. Please feel free to let me know your thoughts on this. Or just flat out insult me. Either is good.
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I take it
that to you, the trade deadline looks like this:
I make a habit of adopting NL teams. While I haven’t picked a team yet this year, it may wind up having to be the Pirates or the Rockies. Having just moved back to Maryland, the Nationals are also back on my radar.
"Have faith in the Yankees my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
Pinstripe Alley | The Hometown Fan | @jscape2000
Yeeeeeeeep, that's exactly what it looks like to me.
But yeah, the Pirates are fun to watch.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jul 12, 2011 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Nice post
And I’m with ya. Sometimes I feel I’d like to see us fall 10 games out of playoff contention in July so maybe, just maybe, we’d get the chance to see what our young talent can do. And even if this scenario came to pass, the ones who did come up and played well, and some of those who didn’t get called up at all, would be traded away in the off season for another aging superstar anyway. But don’t blame the Yankees for their “win now” mentality; Blame the fans, like many of the ones here, for this behavior. It would be hell on earth if the Yankees from April to September didn’t make any move imaginable to keep us at or near the top.
I bet it's good to be playing again, huh?
Why can't they use the young talent to help contend?
I want to see the young players get a chance to help the major league team, but I also want the Yankees in the race every single year. I don’t ever want to see them 10 games out. If the Yankees are out of the playoff race then watching baseball isn’t fun anymore- I want them to have something to play for. There’s no need to completely rebuild with young players and fall out of contention. They can do both at the same time.
I believe in 2008 they tried to use kids to help them stay in contention. I liked that idea and I want things like that to continue. I know that didn’t work out since both Hughes and Kennedy blew in 2008, but I want to see the Yankees use young players get starting opportunities. Some of them are actually good and can help the team right now become better.
CALL UP JESUS MONTERO!
You people are taking crazy pills
Why is it exciting for some teams to just make the playoffs? Because that is all that they are capable of doing. The Yankees are capable of so much more. If they fail to excel despite their roster/payroll/farm system, should Yankees fans accept that like Cubs fans or Pirates fans? No, of course they should not. Because unlike the Cubs and Pirates, the Yankees have the tools to win.
Those of you wishing they would fail more so you can watch the kids in the farm system play are the ultimate spoiled fans. Yes, sure, I’d love to see the likes of Jesus Montero come up to the majors. But I will never complain about the Yankees’ success – I remember the ’80s too well, when this team was a joke.
Huh?
I’ve been a Yankee fan since I was 4 years old, 1968. I think you misunderstood the sentiment of my comment. Oh well.
I bet it's good to be playing again, huh?
Sometimes I feel I’d like to see us fall 10 games out of playoff contention in July
That was the specific comment I was talking about from you. But the rest of my post applied to the overall post.
I say this only because I feel like it’s the ONLY way we’ll ever get a real chance to let these guys play and get some experience while taking their lumps, lumps that the Yankees aren’t able to let occur because they’re always in contention. Of course I always want to win, but I’d like it to be with a crop like we have now, a la Jeter-Posada-Mo-Pettitte-Bernie…The core four may never had even occurred if we weren’t going through some years of not making the playoffs.
I bet it's good to be playing again, huh?
Except for Bernie, who broke in in the early 90s, all of those guys came up when the good years started. You can argue that that being out of contention eliminated the temptation to trade them away earlier, but except for Bernie, all of them played big roles during playoff years.
The problem is that we don’t seem to let guys make mistakes. Again, except for Bernie, all of those guys had success right away. We don’t let a guy fail, or even do OK – he has to be a star or he’s shuttled back and forth to AAA, platooned, or shuttled back and forth between the rotation and the bullpen.
by long time listener on Jul 13, 2011 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d agree with this assessment. And it is frustrating to wonder, when you see guys like IPK or Clippard have success with another team after a short stint in pinstripes. But, I won’t pretend like I have the magic formula for making prospects succeed – I’ll just complain that the Yankees are somehow not turning all of their prospects into MLB allstars ;-)
thing is, I can't think of guy that they gave too many chances
They give up too soon, but I can’t think of a young guy who they kept around in the big leagues for too long. Maybe Melky Cabrera, but it wasn’t like he was terrible or they had high expectations for him – they treated him like a 4th outfielder, and traded him when it looked like it could improve the team.
by long time listener on Jul 13, 2011 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Melky’s having an exceptional year in KC. I hated to see him go.
I bet it's good to be playing again, huh?
I don't begrudge him success in KC , but letting him go was the right move
Part of his resurgence could simply be the wake up call that was his ouster from New York.
Sometimes its worth it to trade away prospects, too
I’m happy for Ian Kennedy that he’s found success in Arizona, but the Yankees were able to get a 28-year-old (at the time), high-level center-fielder with a team friendly contract in Granderson.
It’s not always Jay Buhner for Ken Phelps or Fred McGriff for Dale Mitchell.
by Let's Talk About Tex Baby on Jul 13, 2011 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions
"He had a rocket for an arm....YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THE HELL YOU'RE DOING!"
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jul 13, 2011 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions
It sucks to be jaded, but I'd still rather win
In 1993, I was 11 years old and the Yankees were seriously contending for a playoff spot for the first time in my memory. A stacked Blue Jay team pulled away from them in September, but 93 is still one of my favorite Yankee seasons because I got to experience a pennant race for the first time.
In a way, it’s disappointing that I’ll never be as excited again over a pennant race. The Yankees simply contending or making the playoffs is not a victory for us the way it is for a Pirate fan or a Royal fan. If we do that and nothing else, our season is a dismal failure. I didn’t become a Yankee fan because they were good. When I first started following them they were mired in mediocrity. I’d still be a fan if they went 0-162 every year. But as fun as a season like 1993 was, I’ll take 2009 any day.
It’s frustrating that we do such a bad job of developing talent, not just because of the appeal of homegrown players, but also because developing talent from within gives us a better chance to win, especially with the resources we have go supplement those players with free agents. There’s a fine balance between which young players are worth keeping and which are worth sending away, and between which outside players are truly elite and worth big investments and which ones aren’t. The Yankees are always struggling to find that balance with varying degrees of success.
The Yankees’ goal is to win championships as it should be. When I have issues with them, it’s not because that’s their goal, it’s because they sometimes have no clue about how to achieve that goal.
by Let's Talk About Tex Baby on Jul 12, 2011 2:01 PM EDT reply actions
Nice post, IGYAR!
and I agree with all of it.
Moreso the sentiment that the “win now” mentality of the front office and general fan base will preclude the Yankees from finding as many new and young home-grown superstars like Jeter, Bernie, Pettitte, and Posada. Fortunately, there is Cano and Gardner, but there’s no patience in NY for anyone else. Maybe Robertson (but that’s only as long as he performs at this level).
While I don’t think I’ve ever wished that the Yankees would play poorly, I often think that it’d be a cool experience for the front office to not renew any free agent contracts and only fill spots from within, regardless of whether the team makes the playoffs for a few years, to see all the highly touted prospects play on the Major League team and given time to learn and adapt (rather than the perform or fail and go back to the minors or be traded mentality).
I wonder what it could ever take for that to happen. The whole team would have to be injured and need major surgery in the same season? All the starters wind up needing Tommy John surgery (except CC)?
Lastly, I don’t dislike any of our current players. I do dislike the notion that some fans have of entitlement to a playoff spot (and the disturbing rage that ensues if said spot is not awarded to the Yankees) and the entitlement to being able to “acquire” any and every superstar out there, just because “it’s the Yankees!”
"I imagine rooting for the Yankees is like owning a Yacht." - Jimmy Cannon
I wouldn't say I'm crazy. Maybe an eccentric who looks good in jeans.
Mets fans tell me being a Yankee fan is too easy.
Yes it’s easy if I don’t want to stop watching the sport of baseball or have a heart attack. I have the Cowboys for that.
jus waggin along son
LOL!!
I have the Cowboys
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
by Rorschach44 on Jul 13, 2011 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions
We walked like them, just like Was Not Was taught us to do!
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jul 13, 2011 1:25 AM EDT up reply actions
I sort of agree
On the one hand, losing stinks, and I don’t want to go back to the late 80s, early 90s when the Yankees were terrible, no matter what that means for other franchises. Plus, it’s not like the Yankees are the only perennial contender in the MLB, or in all of sports – most sports have teams that have competed for about a decade, and won a couple of championships in there to boot (Pats, Steelers, Lakers, Celtics, and I’m sure there is a hockey team or two but who cares about hockey).
But some of the moves – like the almost-Lee deal from last year – feel like overkill. And I wish they would give young players more of a chance, both because it’s easier to feel ties to a guy who’s come up through our system and had success than it is for a guy who’s signed as a free agent or acquired in a trade. But mostly, I wish that they’d give young guys more of a chance so that we can stay competitive – if Nova can be a solid, middle-of-the-rotation guy (which I think is possible, and those guys don’t grow on trees), that’s one fewer starter we’ll have to throw money at down the road. And if we can develop a couple of solid bench players or bullpen guys, that means fewer spots for Jones or Mitre.
So to sum up, I want the Yankees to compete every year and win, on average, at least every other World Series. But I want to do it with as many home-grown guys as possible, even if it means easing off the gas pedal once in a while to break in a Nova-type.
by long time listener on Jul 13, 2011 10:47 AM EDT reply actions
Pretty much this, yeah.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jul 13, 2011 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s why I love Brett Gardner so much, because I love seeing young farm talent come up and strut their skills as best they can. It’s also why it infuriates me when he is platooned for Andruw Jones, a player I want to see DFA’d about a month or three ago.
This, and D-Rob.
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Writer for Pinstripe Alley
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
"Every day is a great day for hockey."
Thissssssssssss
And yet here I am dreading what our front office does with Jesus Montero, with Ivan Nova, with Nunez, and with our other prospects all for the sake of winning here & now, no matter the cost to the future. I’m probably alone in thinking this, but I would honestly rather see the Yankees take a chance on prospects and possibly lose then sacrifice them and possibly win. Maybe it’s just the gambler in me.
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Writer for Pinstripe Alley
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
"Every day is a great day for hockey."
nailed it
I will never forget 95’ or especially 96’. What makes me so happy about 96 is what tends to piss me off about now, in that we gave a lot of young talent a chance to shine, and they helped lead us to 4 WS championships.
Thank Gene Michael and Bob Watson for that. Since then it seems no young arms get a shot, or there is something we don’t know….like maybe they have all been throwing up in the bathroom before they pitch, crying “I need the Lord” like Michael Rappaport in “The Scout” (great movie).
To me, the price of the success of the late 90’s foundation formation has been a multi-million dollar international corporation that now seeks recognizable names to further enhance that brand.
by total hermination on Jul 18, 2011 1:47 PM EDT reply actions
lol
meant to say multi-billion….semantics
by total hermination on Jul 18, 2011 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
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