Joba's elbow, rules, the Verducci effect and sloppy thinking
As we think about Joba's injury I cannot help another Verducci effect rant.
As the Yanks brought the young prospect along they bent over backwards to try to protect him from the Verducci effect. When he was in the pen they limited his innings and his appearances. When he had a try as a starter they limited his innings by pulling him from games, skipping starts, etc etc. At the time I thought they damaged what they were trying to protect.
Now he has the injury they went nuts to avoid. I feel badly and wish Joba the best.
So, it is time to look at the Verducci effect again. Those of you with long memories will recall I've written on this before, usually to the effect that we do not know if the idea is valid because the evidence presented is not adequate show that things like Joba Rules are necessary or smart.
Let me talk for a minute about how industry thinks about machinery that breaks down periodically. They develop statistics in the form of mean time between failures. These statistics are not time in the calender sense. These stats are mean number of operating hours between failures. If it were a fleet of vehicles the stat might be miles between failures. By extension the number I'm interested in is pitches between injuries.
First let me say that human bodies are very different. If we do stats we will find out about averages. I do not know if we will ever be able to tell which pitching prospect is going to break down and which will pitch til his hair is grey. Baseball has always had it's Nolan Ryan, Satchel Paige, Jamie Moyer, Warren Spahn's who pitch into their 40's. What I think is that it's them, not how they were used that made them last.
The young pitchers who got hurt fairly quickly after a big work load increase? Duh. What I think is their arm had x pitches to throw before injury. When they started pitching more the injury came. No one has presented ANY evidence that the increased work load CAUSED an injury in a way that lightening the work load would prevent injury. I think it's likely that delaying the date a pitcher throws his 100,500th pitch delays any injury he was always going to get around his 10.500th pitch (obviously the number is arbitrary and just meant as an example.)
I hope we will soon see the Yankees stop delaying the development of their prospect pitchers. I'd love to see someone get hired to do the statistical project. The country is full of people with enough stats to do a better analysis. If we want to know the answer the best way would be to do it like medical research. Randomly assign young pitchers to different groups, treat them differently, track them and see if the results are different. I do not know how it could be done 'blind', but it would be better if it were.
Joba, get well man. Get your treatment, or operation, rehab, and come back to us.
40 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Use Nova or Hughes
in the pen
"I’m never really surprised, but I am thrilled sometimes." Joe G. 2010
keep nova starting, he is pitching better
by jadedeed2327 on Jun 11, 2011 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions
this
WHEN YOU DESCRIBE the prototypical NBA center, he is not complete without superlative size, strength and athleticism. He’ll fight for the tough rebounds in the trenches, but is just as quick to burn you with a shot from 15 feet.
Johan Petro possesses all of these skills and more, and at a mere 23 years of age, he bears all the promise of fulfilling his vast potential.
also i really dont see phil hughes replacing anyone unless they are injured
garcia and colon are pitching too well this season and nova is turning it around,
burnett is not going to bullpen and has been decent this year
by jadedeed2327 on Jun 12, 2011 12:19 AM EDT up reply actions
I think Hughes is gonna be in the pen for a while too
But the Yanks need to make some trades until they get healthy again. Get another quality starter and make the bullpen stronger
WHEN YOU DESCRIBE the prototypical NBA center, he is not complete without superlative size, strength and athleticism. He’ll fight for the tough rebounds in the trenches, but is just as quick to burn you with a shot from 15 feet.
Johan Petro possesses all of these skills and more, and at a mere 23 years of age, he bears all the promise of fulfilling his vast potential.
Cash has said Hughes isn’t relieving so I’ll take his word for it (though his word has been dodgy before, I believe him here)
Unless you're a pitcher or Gustavo Molina, kindly SWING THE BAT and ignore the Binder's bunt signal.
ok cashman said he will be starting along with giardi, but who are they taking out of the rotation?
i think we need bullpen and maybe another bat than a starter unless its an ace pitcher
by jadedeed2327 on Jun 12, 2011 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Garcia, don’t be fooled by his smoke and mirrors act
Also I don’t think they should waste more money/prospects on bullpen people since they’ve proven they’re so fickle anyway.
Unless you're a pitcher or Gustavo Molina, kindly SWING THE BAT and ignore the Binder's bunt signal.
I have more confidence in garcia than i do in hughes, garcia is a veteran and knows how to pitch
by jadedeed2327 on Jun 13, 2011 1:28 AM EDT up reply actions
If by "know how to pitch"
You mean: “knows how to give up line drives off of his 86 mph fastball,” than yes.
If by "know how to pitch"
you mean: “throw slop and hope they swing at it and it goes right to my defense”, then absolutely.
It's like being a huge fan of winning, which we do, relentlessly.
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Jun 13, 2011 2:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, Hughes clearly doesn’t know how to pitch. That’s why his 2010 season was so terrible.
Unless you're a pitcher or Gustavo Molina, kindly SWING THE BAT and ignore the Binder's bunt signal.
hughes is awful this year, garcia is better than him, i dont care about last year when hughes was awful in second half
by jadedeed2327 on Jun 14, 2011 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions
ERA isn’t everything as I’ve already explained.
Unless you're a pitcher or Gustavo Molina, kindly SWING THE BAT and ignore the Binder's bunt signal.
ERA, Garcia, Nova
ERA is overrated because while it is a good indicator of results (the main objective of a pitcher is to not allow runs) it does nothing to explain the cause behind those results – whether it’s good pitching or just luck. Garcia’s peripherals suggest that he’s been a bit lucky and that by the end of the year his ERA should be closer to the 4.64 that it was last year.
Garcia’s still pitched a lot better than Nova has though, so if Hughes were coming back tomorrow and Colon wasn’t hurt, Nova would have to be the guy to go.
by Let's Talk About Tex Baby on Jun 14, 2011 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
At the same time you can point to Phil Hughes as evidence that the Verducci effect is valid. Honestly I think there’s so much more to it than IP. Nobody has figured out the “formula” yet. Do you need to count pitches thrown with full intensity, even outside of an actual game? I remember they had Joba throw a simulated inning or two before his starts for a bit. Do you count those pitches or not? You can make an argument either way.
I don't think the Joba rules had anything to do with the injury
If it had happened last year, it might be a different story.
The Joba rules have to do with the fact that the Yankees got almost zero production out of him before the injury
But probably not the injury itself.
by Let's Talk About Tex Baby on Jun 10, 2011 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Joba was drafted where he was cuz he was thought to have arm problems in the future
the Yanks tried to avoid it in really a very dumb manner, but it was inevitable. Its probably better off that it happened and should’ve been allowed to happen earlier.
Joba will come back stronger
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
We can rebuild him.
We have the technology.
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
by CasanovaWong on Jun 10, 2011 9:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Just get him to Colon’s doctor and that should solve the problem.
"Nature never intended for you to survive here. But this fall, nature isn't the only thing to fear." September 10, 2011. Alabama vs. Penn State. White House.
by Chris McKeown on Jun 10, 2011 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions
think we can get King felix for him now
by TheYankeeClipper on Jun 10, 2011 10:49 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
the problem is we dont have a control joba
you’re experiment makes perfects sense by the scientific model… except we dont have a control joba with which to compare. You will NEVER know the answer to this question definitively, all you can hope to do is collect enough empirical data to make a reasonable assumption. Verducci thinks he’s done that… but he’s not a statistician, and obviously has no idea what six sigma means.
It is very important not to let individual anecdotes change your perceptions of data.
pause
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
by Rorschach44 on Jun 12, 2011 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions
They'd both help the Yankees tremendously
why would any Yankee fan argue with that? its clear they need someone can man a corner outfield spot, play some DH, and then obviously get bullpen help
WHEN YOU DESCRIBE the prototypical NBA center, he is not complete without superlative size, strength and athleticism. He’ll fight for the tough rebounds in the trenches, but is just as quick to burn you with a shot from 15 feet.
Johan Petro possesses all of these skills and more, and at a mere 23 years of age, he bears all the promise of fulfilling his vast potential.
Because they're not worth the cost in prospects
And we have Soriano, Hughes, and Chavez coming back soon and possibly Montero being called up so there’s a ton of quality players to fill out our roster
what would he have to give up for them, who would u give up for them
i know its unlikely the mets trade with yankees but if mets get prospects they want
by jadedeed2327 on Jun 12, 2011 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I wouldn't give a bag of balls for either
Do not want Krod on my team.
Do not trust Beltran’s health. Plus I’m happy with Gardy, Swish and Jones.
"I’m never really surprised, but I am thrilled sometimes." Joe G. 2010
*YOU
Unless you're a pitcher or Gustavo Molina, kindly SWING THE BAT and ignore the Binder's bunt signal.
alright, sorry, who should we get for bullpen, you dont think we need another bat?
by jadedeed2327 on Jun 13, 2011 1:29 AM EDT up reply actions
The only other bat they need is Jesus at catcher. Seriously look at their lineup:
C- Martin (should be replaced by Jesus)
1B- Tex (one of the best 1B in the game)
2B- Cano (one of the best 2B in the game)
3B- A-Rod (one of the best 3B in the game)
SS- Jeter (not like he used to be, but there aren’t many good SS out there)
LF- Gardner (on-base machine, best defensive outfielder in the game)
CF- Granderson (arguably best CF in baseball right now)
RF- Swisher (early season slump notwithstanding, patient hitter capable of 30 HR)
DH- Posada (not gonna trade for a DH, especially since even if Posada declines again, they can use the position to rest players)
So, no. I don’t think the Yanks need another bat. Maybe if they can pull a trade for an Eric Hinske or Jerry Hairston to shore up the bench like they did in 09, but that’s about it. I don’t trust trading for relievers either. They can seem amazing on other teams, then crap the bed on your favorite (see Gagne, Eric in 2007).
Unless you're a pitcher or Gustavo Molina, kindly SWING THE BAT and ignore the Binder's bunt signal.

by 





































