Joe Girardi's Binder Makes a Right Call
by jscape2000 on Apr 6, 2011 11:00 AM EDT
in New York Yankees Analysis
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PrintLast night, Joe Girardi's binder told him to go bring in Rafael Soriano with a 4 run lead to face the Twins' 7-8-9 hitters.
It's not the move I would have made: David Robertson hadn't pitched since Saturday, and I'd have saved Soriano for the top of the order in the ninth, with an eye towards skipping Mariano Rivera.
To make matters worse, Joe waited until Soriano had walked in a run (his third walk of the inning) to go get the right-hander. Frankly, I'm happier walking Mauer with the bases loaded than giving the future Hall of Famer a pitch to hit, but I would have put a fresh D-Rob in to face him, rather than Soriano (26 pitches at the start of the Mauer AB).
By the time Roberston was in the game, the Yankee lead was gone faster than you could say "dying quail."
I wish the result had been different, and I would have done it a little differently, but I think Soriano in the 8th is an acceptable call:
Don't let the score dictate pitcher use. I'm glad to see Joe going to his best pitchers, and not just saving them for save situations.
Always monitor pitcher workload. Joba Chamberlain has already pitched in 3 games, including Sunday and Monday. He's unavailable.
Play to win. How would you have felt if Girardi had gone to Luis Ayala? The binder must have said, "Never save a pitcher for tomorrow; tomorrow it may rain."
The pitching choice in the 8th was the right move... but drawing in the infield in the 10th was not.
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I think Girardi has to take a good portion of the blame for last night’s debacle. I agree Robertson could have started the eighth, but regardless, SoSo should have been yanked before facing Mauer, or sooner. It was a massive failure to manage instead of the usual overmanaging.
I bet it's good to be playing again, huh?
He should have started the inning with Robertson, then went to Soriano or Mo if he got into trouble or in the 9th. He shouldn’t be going down the totem pole
Yep.
Robertson hadn’t pitched in 3 days, Soriano had pitched the night before. Robertson should have started the inning with Soriano coming on if/when he got in trouble.
I still think Mariano should have been used for the final out in the 8th inning with the way it played out. Bases loaded, need 1 out to all but officially put away the game. No one I want pitching more than Mo in that situation. If using him for a 4 out save in April makes you see red, then someone else could have easily pitched the 9th. Giving up 3 runs with no one on is a lot harder than giving up 3 with the bases loaded.
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Apr 6, 2011 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Is making managing calls from the binder similar to getting a memo 'from the desk of Joe Girardi?'
Why are inanimate objects running the team?
I had no problem bringing in Soriano. To me the issue was leaving him in when he obviously had nothing.
If the Yankees have a late lead tonight, I wonder who closes. Is Mariano available? Does Soriano pirch back to back games in an effort to screw his head back on? Does Robertson close? How about : ?
by designatedquitter on Apr 6, 2011 11:09 AM EDT reply actions
I trust Girardi not to blow out relievers
He’s shown the ability to do that over 3 years now, so I don’t view him using Soriano with a 4 run lead in the 8th the same as I did when Joe Torre did it with Tom Gordon time after time. You can say that Soriano should be saved for higher leverage situations, but I have a feeling Girardi is still trying to test out what he has in Soriano since he has a reputation of being fragile. Obviously test one didn’t go well.
The argument you can’t make is that Girardi’s decision caused the Yankees to lose the game, which a lot of people do when things end badly. I don’t have a problem with leaving him in to try and get out of his own jam either. It’s April and he’s getting 12 mil a year. He should be able to do that.
by Let's Talk About Tex Baby on Apr 6, 2011 11:31 AM EDT reply actions
Girardi made the right call
Girardi made the right call by putting soriano into the game in the 8th. Thats why we got this bum to begin with. He oblviously didnt have his location though. You can get away with this in April. But, in August or Sept. Joe would have pulled him alot sooner.
The hit that Robertson gave up was cheap. Swisher made the play look awful too.
i was sick to my stomach watching Jeter strikeout to end the game. Thats not the guy you want to K in that situation. He’s not as clutch as he once was.
It's still too early in the season to say that Jeter isn't clutch
I just checked his stats.
His career “triple slash” (BA/OBP/SLG) with RISP and 2 outs (according to Yahoo! Sports) is .310/.412/.444
It has been going down steadily over the past 5 years; he had an OPS over 1.000 in 2006 and 2007 (with about 65 AB), while last year it was only .743 with 10 more AB.
He may not be as clutch now has he was earlier in his career, but April is too early to make that call.
Jeter’s “clutch” is a myth as Arod’s “choking.” You can;t expect someone to always get a hit or a hr when they want/need to…But i do agree that Jeter has looked awful at the plate
You don’t think Jeter normally comes up big in clutch situations?
Guitar or die.
by Gelatin on Apr 6, 2011 12:14 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Career states with RISP: .305/.400/.829
RISP 2/outs: .310/.412/.856
bases empty: .315/.380/.847
His career line is .314/.384/.836
his stats all line up similar to each other despite the situation…so yea his clutchness is a myth. He’s just always been a good hitter but doesn’t exactly become superman in RISP situations
Hows that compare to the league average though?
I honestly don’t know myself, but if I were to bet I’d say it probably isn’t .300.
Do you just think the idea of “clutch” is silly Or do you think other players are clutch?
Forgive me lol I have time to burn before my next class.
Guitar or die.
by Gelatin on Apr 6, 2011 12:30 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I don’t believe in clutch, but I do believe in choke.
It’s a talented individual who can perform at his normal level when the pressure is really on. I’m not sure that there is much difference between players at the major league level, beyond opportunities.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
@jscape2000
I feel the same way.
Looking at Jeters stats with RISP I’d say he does just that.
Its just a lot easier to say clutch then “Wow Jeter is performing at his normal level in this very tense situation”.
Guitar or die.
by Gelatin on Apr 6, 2011 12:39 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
lol true…i’ll give you that. But some people do have this notion that jeter somehow becomes a .400 hitter in the situation which is no true…
Yeah I think thats silly.
I tend to think that its mainly clutch moments that players handle rather then clutch players.
For example Melky Cabrera has quite a lot of walk-off hits. Do I think he’s a clutch player? Nah his stats with RISP would probably go against that. Has he done well in “clutch moments”? Yeah.
I still wouldnt expect Melky to get a walk-hit if he had the chance.
Guitar or die.
by Gelatin on Apr 6, 2011 12:55 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Well jeter has always been one of the better players in baseball, but for some people the idea of clutch is preforming out of the ordinary in high leverage situations. I don’t believe that, since players have no influence over BABIP and other mitigating factors when they make contact. Jeter in high leverage situations always preformed to his standards which is at a very high level compared to average player. But the idea that he somehow becomes absurdly better in those situations i think is flawed.
Clutch is bunk. Here are AL average triple slashes and AL average triple slashes in high leverage situations:
2010
AL Batting – .260/.327/.407 – .734 OPS
AL High Leverage – .260/.332/.404 – .736 OPS
2009
AL Batting – .267/.336/.428 – .764 OPS
AL High Leverage – .267/.338/.419 – .757 OPS
2008
AL Batting – .268/.336/.420 – .756 OPS
AL High Leverage – .268/.339/.420 – .759 OPS
2007
AL Batting – .271/.338/.423 – .761 OPS
AL High Leverage – .276/.345/.426 – .771 OPS
Just about every year the high leverage plate appearances, which are your typical “clutch” situations with the game on the line, have the same results as the average plate appearances. Clutch is something for ESPN writers to yap about and absolutely nothing more. Given enough of a sample size, every hitter will regress to their mean ability.
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Taking the entire league average isn’t the best thing to do here, because if there are such “clutch” players, there are probably an equal amount of “unclutch” players, so taking the average of the league would cancel them out.
I think I agree with jscape’s assessment. Some players are nervous under pressure and under- perform, ie Cano circa 2009, while others are not bothered by it and perform at their full potential. The players who perform at full potential may, in turn, find some luck in the smaller sample sized high leverage situations, making them appear to be “clutch.”
I saw a guy in the subway holding a pamphlet that said Jesus was coming on May 12, 2011. I don't think it will be that early, he would still qualify as a super two, so they need to wait until June to delay his arbitration clock.
Actually I thought Jeter had a decent at bat to end the game
He ran the count and fouled off several pitches before swinging through the last one. He battled tough, he lost. Tip your hat to the Nathan (who kept throwing tough pitches even after Jeter spoiled several) and move on.
I disagree
It’s a long season, no season to waste and yes I mean waste Soriano in the 8th with a four run lead. D-Rob is good enough to get the job done.
I am not glad Joe went to one of our best pitchers there. It’s a low leverage situation!!!!!!!
If D-Rob gets into trouble THEN bring him in.
Also, while D-Rob did his job and get Young to take a shit swing and it’s not his fault it led to a tie game, Mo should have been in for that situation. With one out and the bottom of the Twins lineup due up, have Mo finish out the 8th and try to keep a 4-1 lead. Then you can throw D-Rob in the ninth with a nice cushion.
RU RAH RAH
RU RAH RAH
there's my issue with his move
First off Soriano should not have been used…
Second when soriano was losing it Girardi pulled him too late
Third When Soriano loaded the bases Girardi went with D-rob instead of MO. D-rob is no control pitcher, so putting him on with bases loaded is asking for trouble especially since he didn’t pitch for a while. D-rob is best when the inning is clean because of his curve and tendency to walk people once in a while. And what ya know, D-rob had troubles throwing strikes.
All in all Girardi made a small mistake in using soriano after he pitched last night and threw 19 pitches. Then it became a bigger mistake when he decided to leave him out there and when things got to the worst possible situation he went with the 4th best reliever instead of THE best.
Jscape, I'm glad you're around
Because no matter how hard I tried to make this point yesterday (among others), nobody could seem to grasp it. If the right call doesn’t work out people automatically say its the wrong call.
the right call would have been calling in mo to clean up the mess. I have more issues with that than using Soriano in the 8th
The right call was what Joe made
You have to rely on more than Mo or you won’t have Mo to rely on when you really need him because you’ve used him up. Soriano is the 2nd best reliever in the bullpen, he belongs out there in the 8th. Even with Soriano struggling he got 2 outs, and Joe let him work through the struggles, but left him out too long. Robertson got a pop fly, which is what any manager wants out of a pitcher, but it landed in play. The manager made the right call.
i see don’t see how using D-rob who hasn’t pitched in a while and lack the control of MO in a bases loaded situation was the right call…Plus we had Mo to use…since he did pitch the 9th yesterday, and would have done so anyways had D-rob gotten an out. If it was a situation of Mo not being able to pitch at all, then i won;t blame him…but that was clearly not the case
So you shouldn't use D-Rob because he hasn't been used
But how does he get use if you don’t use him?
Well i did say D-rob should have started the inning, since Soriano threw alot the day before. But since Joe made the cal to Soriano, it was a minor mistake that i can live with. But not using Mo is a big one. D-rob walks ppl and doesn’t have Mo’s control… I’ll go with the guy who walks about 10 ppl a year and has pin point control over the guy with a 4.5 BB/9 in a bases loaded situation any day. Plus even is lets say Mo, blows it somehow, we won’t feel as shitty knowing we used the best guy we had rather questioning why we didn’t use him…Plus he can still pitch the 9th, then we still have D-rob available for a clean inning in the 10th rather than Boone Logan who has looked terrible in spring and in the season.
Except that what he said was wrong. Girardi did not go to his best pitcher, jscape. He put Robertson in with the game on the line instead of Rivera. The bottom line is that we lost the game because Girardi was trying to avoid using Mo, and he ended up using him anyway in a much less meaningful situation
I saw a guy in the subway holding a pamphlet that said Jesus was coming on May 12, 2011. I don't think it will be that early, he would still qualify as a super two, so they need to wait until June to delay his arbitration clock.
Robertson induced a little flare that Swisher couldn't get to and then let get past him
It only scored the runners because it was 3-2 with two outs so they were running on pitch. Robertson got weak contact, but it managed to find an empty spot. That happens.
Better yet
how is Soriano not the best pitcher for that spot if, even when he’s struggling through an inning, he still gets 2 outs? That’s the sign of a good pitcher, to me. He almost made it through. Robertson got the result that 99.9% gets you out of that inning, but in this case it didn’t. Joe made the right calls, and I know for sure he would make them again.
Robertson got weak contact, so in that sense he did his job, but where he failed was in going to a full count before getting that contact, allowing all the runners to get a head start.
I saw a guy in the subway holding a pamphlet that said Jesus was coming on May 12, 2011. I don't think it will be that early, he would still qualify as a super two, so they need to wait until June to delay his arbitration clock.
I understand Girardi wanting to avoid using Mo to get him a rest, but when you have the go ahead run at the plate in late innings, you need to protect the win. By trying to avoid using Mo, he not only ended up having to use him anyway, but lost the game.
I saw a guy in the subway holding a pamphlet that said Jesus was coming on May 12, 2011. I don't think it will be that early, he would still qualify as a super two, so they need to wait until June to delay his arbitration clock.
Our worst pitcher?
How can I take anything you say seriously when you show 0 faith in AJ, who is definitely not the worst pitcher the Yankees have.
Whoops my fault
Garcia’s pitching tonight. I just assumed we had reset, didn’t realize we skipped Freddy.
Gee, I wonder why all of you “Monday morning managers” are not managing in the major leagues, instead of your every-day dull lives. It seems as if you have nothing to do but sit around and criticize people that have bigger and more important things to do. They have the knowledge of the game, NOT YOU, so back off with your stupid remarks about what “should have” happened.
Do we need to break out the link again?
by Jedi Master A-Rod on Apr 6, 2011 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
A "wrong call" that "works out" at the time
does not become the “right call” for that reason. Bringing in Soriano last night with a 4-run lead in the 8th knowing that you’ll likely need a lot of bullpen with Gracia pitching today is the reason it’s the wrong call.
And ndirish: If you don’t like discussing sports, get back to your everyday dull life.
I think it comes down to the simple fact that Soriano just had a bad outing. It happens. That’s not Girardi’s fault.
However, there’s no getting around the fact that he along with most other managers use a “bullpen by numbers” approach which necessitates all sorts of hilarious titles and rituals that dictate how relievers are used, things like naming somebody the “8th inning guy” or never pulling him or your closer from the game until the lead is actually gone.
A manager should save his best relievers for the highest leverage situations, and Girardi has four very good relievers. So how do you explain Joba pitching the 9th inning of Sunday’s game with a 3-run deficit, Soriano pitching the 8th inning of yesterday’s game with a 4-run lead, and David Robertson only throwing 17 pitches through the first four games of the season?
Precisely this.
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Future hall of famer Mauer?????
are you being serious?
the biggest mistake
of the night was taking CC out at all, why wasn’t that a choice??
by Soriano NY 12 on Apr 6, 2011 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Because CC was already over 100 pitches. You want to burn him out in his second start of the season?
I saw a guy in the subway holding a pamphlet that said Jesus was coming on May 12, 2011. I don't think it will be that early, he would still qualify as a super two, so they need to wait until June to delay his arbitration clock.
in his 8th year...AS A CATCHER, he has a career BA of .326, an MVP, 3 gold gloves, already has over 1000 hits
(jorge has 1587 in his 17th year) unless something goes real wrong…
by MichaelGGBGrabow on Apr 6, 2011 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I hope that's a genuine desire of his
and that he works there on the regular when it opens so I can go in and eat smothered hashbrowns at the bar with him
by MichaelGGBGrabow on Apr 7, 2011 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Donnie Baseball
had 1200+, a .326 BA, MVP and 3 GGs and where is he
by Soriano NY 12 on Apr 6, 2011 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions
You missed when he pointed out Mauer was in his 8th year, me thinks Mauer can add to those numbers.
Nope.
I’m not sure where you got your numbers, Mattingly had 1300 hits and a 144 OPS+ through his first 8 years, but he didn’t make the hall of fame because over the last six years of his career he was just average offensively. His peak was too short.
I saw a guy in the subway holding a pamphlet that said Jesus was coming on May 12, 2011. I don't think it will be that early, he would still qualify as a super two, so they need to wait until June to delay his arbitration clock.
i meant to say
that that is through don mattinglys 7th year. he didnt add too much to those numbers…
Mattingly wasn’t a catcher. If Mattingly had hit like he did, but played second base, he’d be in the Hall, even if his defense was awful. Everything Mauer is doing is unprecedented.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
@jscape2000
by jscape2000 on Apr 6, 2011 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Ok, I see your point now. Well, as jscape says, it comes down to the position he plays. Catchers have won the batting title 6 times in the history of the sport, and three of those are Mauer.
I saw a guy in the subway holding a pamphlet that said Jesus was coming on May 12, 2011. I don't think it will be that early, he would still qualify as a super two, so they need to wait until June to delay his arbitration clock.
Just want to know...
Of all the complaints that are being made of Girardi’s decision’s, why are none of them that he took CC out in the first place? Was there a reason why he took Sabathia out? He had only thrown 104 pitches, he could easily have continued pitching.
I too would have brought in Robertson
and saved Soriano for the 9th to try to give Mo a night off had it been my decision. But it wasn’t my decision because my binder isn’t nearly as organized as Girardi’s binder. I bet it has those color tab separators everything.
Still, I agree that bringing in Soriano wasn’t a bad decision at all. It’s not like they had a huge lead, there was still a game to be played and Joe wanted to put it away and there was certainly no expectation of Soriano being that much off his game. I think it was an odd decision to put him in over Robertson, but not a wrong one.
The wrong decision(s) occurred when he failed to take out Soriano after he loaded the bases because you definitely don’t want a guy who is having that bad of a night facing a hitter like Mauer with the bases loaded, and he replaced him with a guy who isn’t named Mariano Rivera.
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