SB Nation New York Editor's Pick
Taking Off the Pinstripes
Friday, February 4th - with the retirement of Andy Pettitte - was officially the end of an era for myself and an entire generation of Yankees fans.
When I was 16-years-old, the New York Yankees hadn't won a World Series since 1978 - a full two years before I was even born. For most of my life up to that point the Yankees were a laughing-stock. They were peppered with players who would fill a book of Who's Who In Mediocrity. Steve Balboni, Alvaro Espinoza, Kevin Maas, Danny Tartabull, Mel Hall, Matt Nokes, Melido Perez, Mike Gallego, Pat Kelly, Steve Howe.... Well, I could go on and on here, but the point is that outside of Don Mattingly - and for a few seasons, Dave Winfield - there just wasn't a whole lot to cheer for.
Things began to change for the better in '93.
The strike that ended the '94 season was particularly crushing for me because the Yanks - it seemed - were FINALLY going to make the playoffs.
Then in 1995 it all fell into place as the Yanks took advantage of the new Wild Card addition to the playoff structure. Don Mattingly had finally made it to the Playoffs. Ah yes, and goddamn the Seattle Mariners. Goddamn Seattle, period.
Andy Pettitte was a rookie in '95 and was a damn good one too. He finished third in Rookie of the Year voting behind Marty Cordova & Garret Anderson. At 12-9, 1995 was the first of sixteen consecutive seasons in which Pettitte would post a .500 record or better.
In 1996 Pettitte nearly won the AL Cy Young - with a 21-8 record - as he finished a very close second to Toronto's Pat Hentgen. It was also in 1996 that the Yankees ended their 18 year World Series drought by beating the Atlanta Braves in six games.
It was during that World Series - Game 5 to be exact - that Pettitte forever earned a spot in my 'Favorites' vault. Heading into Game 5 of that World Series the Braves had every right to be confident - hell, even cocky - as they had already roughed up Pettitte in Game 1 back in the Bronx. The final score in that one was 12-1, and Pettitte had taken the brunt of the beating. So, with Pettitte heading back to the mound - this time in Atlanta - the Braves and their fans surely assumed that all was well.
Oh, how wrong that assumption turned out to be. Game 5 turned into one of the more memorable pitching duels in recent memory, and is still the greatest pitching duel I have ever seen. Andy Pettitte and John Smoltz were unstoppable. They matched zeroes for three innings. In the top of the fourth inning, Cecil Fielder drove home Charlie Hayes for what would be the game's only run, and even that run was unearned as Hayes was only on second base because of a two-base error by Braves center fielder Marquis Grissom.
John Smoltz was dominant, but Pettitte looked like a master. For 8 1/3 innings he threw sinker after sinker to a Braves lineup that was eager to repeat their Game 1 performance. Instead, they didn't collect a hit until the fifth inning when Andruw Jones singled. That baserunner was short-lived, however, as Jones fell victim to a soon-to-be famous Pettitte pick-off move.
Chipper Jones led off the 9th inning with a double, and then moved over to third base on a Fred McGriff ground out. With Pettitte looking gassed, first year manager Joe Torre brought in John Wetteland to close the game out (that was back when Mariano Rivera was still a gas-throwing set-up man). That was that.
Wetteland may have gotten the last two outs to cement the game on that night, but Pettitte's brilliant 8 1/3 innings - in which he outdueled a pitcher in the prime of his career in John Smoltz - cemented his place in the hearts of legions of Yankees fans.
That was the last game ever played at Atlanta Fulton County Stadium.
Even all these years later - with Pettitte now the owner of an unprecedented 19 playoff victories - I still recall that game whenever I think of Andy. I was 16, I was pumped up, and I was ecstatic to watch my team FINALLY win important games. When Charlie Hayes closed his glove around Mark Lemke's pop-up in foul territory for the final out of that World Series, I literally lost my mind for a few hours. I remember nothing. It's all a blur.
It's weird how things are never the same again...
Back then, the Yankees were just happy to be in the playoffs. They were led by a manager whom the New York media had dubbed 'Clueless Joe' when he was signed by the team before the season. They were a team built with cast-offs and minor league call-ups.
Now, the Yankees are damn near expected to win it all every year. They are managed by Joe Girardi after he replaced the now legendary Joe Torre before the 2008 season. They are built with All-Stars no matter where you look on the diamond. They are expected to win it all because they have done just that quite a bit in the years since that 1996 season.
Pettitte is a big reason why. He helped raise the bar. Thanks, Andy.
- JM
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I don't remember it either
But booze has alot to do with my memory lapse.
My weenie is polywampus.( Richard thisle = Dick weed.) What in the fudalumdunges is going on here?
Hahaha...
I wasn’t boozing yet in ’96… Now, ’98 is a different story.
by Joseph Munley on Feb 6, 2011 1:47 PM EST up reply actions
A lot of people like to put down any Yankee as a Hall of Famer on the grounds that their performance benefitted from the great rest of the team.
In Pettitte’s case, that is clearly not so. He won when he was good, and lost when he was bad. 100 more career wins than losses says a lot. Had he pitched 3 more years and averaged 14-15 wins, he would have been a Hall lock, but he didn’t care about it.
Those who look at ERA, WHIP, K/9 etc say he doesn’t get in because his numbers were pretty good, not dominating. They say his playoff record is the same as his regular season record (19-10). To me, that means he regularly beat real good teams when it counted. Others say “but it’s not dominating.” So he won’t get in, but he is “worthy.”
by designatedquitter on Feb 7, 2011 2:21 PM EST reply actions
I agree...
He’ll probably be penalized for not pitching for a few more seasons.
by Joseph Munley on Feb 8, 2011 11:08 PM EST up reply actions
Brings back the memories
Steve Balboni, Alvaro Espinoza, Kevin Maas, Danny Tartabull, Mel Hall, Matt Nokes, Melido Perez, Mike Gallego, Pat Kelly, Steve Howe….
…Roberto Kelly, Brien (freggin’) Taylor, Steve Sax, Hensley “Bam-Bam” Meulens, Andy Stankiewicz, …
Also, Pettitte retired as the active MLB leader in wins- by a lot (240 vs. 193 for 2nd place).
Perhaps 5 years from now, 240 wins will look better than it does now- nobody will be getting to 300 any time soon.
by designatedquitter on Feb 9, 2011 10:39 AM EST reply actions
Great point.
I’ve heard this same point brought up on the Dan Patrick show recently. I cannot remember who the guest was, but they basically said the same thing.
In such a batter-oriented & friendly era of the game, the magic numbers that pitchers generally had to have in order to be considered for the Hall may not be as lofty going forward.
Plus, the days of the workhorse pitcher seem to be a thing of the past.
by Joseph Munley on Feb 9, 2011 1:20 PM EST up reply actions
I agree it is a different game now, i doubt we ever see another 300 game winner ever again
I do disagree about the Yankees being called a laughingstock between 1980 and 1996. Sure the 89- 93 years were terrible but the Yankees had some good teams in the 80’s that didnt miss the playoffs by much and had there been a wildcard they might have had another title or two.
Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.
+1
We didn’t suck during most of that period. Yankee fans equate not winning the World Series as failure. Add to that the Mets’ having some of the best years in their franchise’s history coinciding with a particularly bad Yankee spell from ’89-92, and I can see how our collective memory skewers things, and ’89-92 quickly elongates into ’79-96. But outside that 4 yr period, we were an above-average team that competed frequently (we would have been Wild Card in ’85, 86, 93, 95, and ’94 we were tops in AL but strike screwed us).
by Ghost_of_Brien_Taylor on Feb 14, 2011 1:41 PM EST up reply actions
I understand what you're saying...
.. But those ‘89-’92 seasons are the ones that I recall most vividly. During those years, baseball was my life, I was 9,10,11 & 12 years old, and I constantly got made fun of because my team was terrible. That’s probably why I equate the pre-’95 years with such sub-standard play.
1985 & 86 I was more worried about playing with GI Joes, etc.
by Joseph Munley on Feb 14, 2011 7:43 PM EST up reply actions
The saddest thing about 90-92...
Was watching Mattingly deteriorate. He went from being a top 5 player in baseball to a light hitter seemingly overnight because of his back. We did have some great players in the 80’s (Mattingly, WInfield, Rickey) but we never had the pitching to get to the next level.
In hindsight, though, while the team struggled in the early 90’s, the late 90’s dynasty was being built. Jeter was drafted, Bernie and Mariano were signed as scrawny 16-year-olds. Most importantly the Yankees didn’t trade their prospects for quick fixes like they did throughout the 80’s and it paid off.
by Let's Talk About Tex Baby on Feb 15, 2011 3:02 PM EST up reply actions
I still remember...
… Bernie Williams with those thick glasses in the early ’90s
by Joseph Munley on Feb 15, 2011 7:09 PM EST up reply actions
Will we see 300 wins again? I looked up the active pitchers who are closest. (Fangraphs is the source)
I included Jamie Moyer, even though I think he retired, because, well, who knows?
Jamie Moyer 267-204
Pedro Martinez 219-100 (again- who knows if he stays retired? Or who his daddy is?)
Tim Wakefield 193-172
Roy Halladay 169-86 (He’s the first actually active pitcher on the list, and he’s far away)
Tim Hudson 165-87
Kevin Millwood 159-137
Derek Lowe 157-129
CC Sabathia 157-88
Bartolo Colon 153-103
Roy Oswalt 150-83
Mark Buerhle 148-110
The thing about this list is that of the active, dominant pitchers, (Halladay, Oswalt, Sabathia, Hudson, and maybe Buehrle), not one is a lock to exceed Andy Pettitte’s win total.
The rest of them will be lucky to add 10 more wins.
Compared to who’s active, Andy Pettitte looks like a HOFer for sure- he’s got wins, win %, and rings.
by designatedquitter on Feb 15, 2011 4:12 PM EST reply actions
The fact that “wins, win%, and rings” are relevant to the Hall of Fame makes me truly sad.
by Lord Duggan on Feb 15, 2011 4:27 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Its not just about wins at that point though
I mean in order to win 250-300 games you must be doing something right to keep getting the ball. I think that the saber stuff is coming into play now and i dont have a problem with it but you cant totally just throw out a stat like wins. And i can almost guarantee that we will never see another 300 game winner.
Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.
by YankeesJets on Feb 15, 2011 11:38 PM EST up reply actions
You are assigning a team stat to an individual.
That’s why wins are a terrible argument.
People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring.
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Feb 16, 2011 7:02 PM EST up reply actions
You're absolutely right...
… Just like the argument that great players aren’t that great if they never win a championship. This goes on in EVERY sport.
So, is Adam Morrison a greater basketball player than Sir Charles Barkley simply because Kobe & Co. won championships in LA while he – Morrison – was lucky enough to be there?
Absolutely not.
by Joseph Munley on Feb 16, 2011 7:41 PM EST up reply actions
Wins may be a team stat, but if you pile up 240 of them while no one lese on your team was able to do so, then you are the best pitcher on your team.
If you amass 240 wins over 16 seasons, and no one else in the majors did the same, then there is a compelling argument that you are among the best pitchers of that time period.
One can argue that a single season is too small a sample size (like Aaron Small’s 10-0 run, or Matsuzaka’s 18 wins in 2007), but 16 years is not a small sample, and not all of the teams Pettitte pitched on were great. At some point, the teams become good because they had him, and not vice versa. His playoff record suggests his ability, because it’s not a small sample and the opposition was as good as, or even better than the Yankees.
While you can argue the reverse, Idem est, that Greinke and Hernandez won the Cy Young despite their lack of wins because they were on crappy teams, you would still have to expect them to post over 200 wins if they pitched for 16 years.
by designatedquitter on Feb 17, 2011 1:58 PM EST up reply actions
It's still giving a pitcher credit for what the entire team did.
Did he help? Obviously. No one saying he wasn’t good, but saying “he deserves to be in the hall because of wins!” is incredibly stupid because those wins came with the help of a lot of other people.
People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring.
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Feb 17, 2011 2:15 PM EST up reply actions
And Ruth, Aaron, and Bonds
all got their 2000+ runs because of somebody else and they got their 2000+ rbi because of others. I understand your argument, but to say judging a pitcher by his number of wins is “stupid” is, well, stupid. A pitcher accumulates a lot of wins in part because he was the one who gave his team the chance to win in the first place.
There's always next year
It's the same reason that RBIs are not a good judge of those guys.
Did they have to be good to get them? Clearly. However, they only got as many as their team helped them get. I’m not saying that you should never discuss a pitcher’s wins, but making that a main part of a Hall of Fame discussion is like saying “Bonds should get in because of the RBIs!” At the end of the day, you are still assigning something more than one person did to an individual. Wins can and probably should be a part of a strong argument for someone, but it shouldn’t be THE argument.
People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring.
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Feb 18, 2011 8:31 AM EST up reply actions
C.C.'s the only guy on that list with a shot
Halladay needs 131 and he’ll be 34 on May 14th. Even if he pitches 8 more years, which would take him through age 41, he’d need 16.25 wins per year, which seems unlikely.
C.C. on the other hand is turning 31 this year and he needs 143. If he pitches 10 more years, taking him through age 40, he’d only need to average 14.3, which is a lot more double than 16.25, especially with 3 more prime years left. Of course this would require staying healthy, which is no given considering how many innings C.C. has thrown already and how much weight he’s carrying around.
by Let's Talk About Tex Baby on Feb 15, 2011 5:29 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
but the weight is a good thing
I R TEH HAX!!1!
by Brian5517209 on Feb 15, 2011 9:44 PM EST up reply actions
CC is still 83 wins behind Andy Pettitte. He needs 5 years of 17 wins to pass him.
He is probably better than 50/50 to do that eventually, but my point was to illustrate Pettitte’s accomplishment in this era. He won more games than the dominant Pedro Martinez, who it can hardly be said flamed out young or succumbed to an injury-shortened career. Jamie Moyer, who is a freak, pitched until he was 45 to win 27 more games than Pettitte, who is 38. Time Wakefield is also over 40, and veryone else is miles away and will have to pitch into their late 30s or 40s to catch Pettitte.
Unless there are simply no good HOF candidates coming up at all from 2015-2020, then Andy Pettitte has to be on the short list of those who are.
by designatedquitter on Feb 16, 2011 2:00 PM EST up reply actions






































