The Manager All-Time Team
by jscape2000 on Feb 17, 2011 2:00 PM EST
in New York Yankees Analysis
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PrintAs usual, I was sitting at my desk, thinking about baseball instead of working...
Here's the thought: which manager could field the best team based on players he had managed? Is it a Joe McCarthy who managed a single team that dominated the league for years, or a better traveled manager like Joe Torre or Billy Martin, who managed a wider range of players?
Since I figure the great Yankee skipper will be well represented in the comments (Casey is my pick) I started looking at the non-Yankee options:
| John J. McGraw | Lou Pinella | Bobby Cox | Connie Mack | Sparky Anderson | |
| C | Roger Bresnahan | Geovany Soto | Javy Lopez | Mickey Cochrane | Johnny Bench |
| 1B | Bill Terry | Don Mattingly | Fred McGriff | Jimmy Foxx | Tony Perez |
| 2B | Rogers Hornsby | Brett Boone | Marcus Giles | Nap Lajoie | Joe Morgan |
| 3B | Freddie Lindstrom | Alex Rodriguez | Chipper Jones | Home Run Baker | Pete Rose |
| SS | Travis Jackson | Barry Larkin | Rafael Furcal | Jack Barry | Alan Trammell |
| LF | Willie Keeler | Rickey Henderson | Dale Murphy | Al Simmons | George Foster |
| CF | Fred Snodgrass | Ken Griffey Jr. | Andrew Jones | Ty Cobb | Chet Lemon |
| RF | Mel Ott | Dave Winfield | Gary Sheffield | Tris Speaker | Kirk Gibson |
| SP | Christy Matthewson | Randy Johnson | Phil Niekro | Eddie Plank | Jack Morris |
| SP | Carl Hubbell | Joe Niekro | Gaylord Perry | Lefty Grove | Gary Nolan |
| SP | Burleigh Grimes | Carlos Zambrano | Greg Maddux | ? | David Wells |
| SP | Joe McGinnity | Tommy John | Tom Glavine | ? | Dan Petry |
| CP | Rube Marquard | Dave Righetti | John Smoltz | Chief Bender | Willie Hernandez |
Obviously, I'm taking the players' careers rather than a specific season.
I think it's tough to beat Lou Pinella: although his starting pitching isn't as elite as Bobby Cox's, Lou has Ichiro and Carl Crawford to pinch run, Edgar Martinez to pinch hit, and he's got Willie Randolph for a defensive replacement.
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I'd sub in The Gator over Zambrano
There has to be plenty of pitchers he has managed better than him.
Joe Torre’s all time team is pretty unbeatable….
C Jorge Posada
1B Jason Giambi
2B Jeff Kent
3B Alex Rodriguez
SS Ozzie Smith
LF Manny Ramirez
CF Dale Murphy
RF Gary Sheffield
DH Jim Thome
SP 1 Roger Clemens
SP 2 Randy Johnson
SP 3 Greg Maddux
SP 4 Phil Niekro
SP 5 Tom Seaver
SP 6 Mike Mussina
SP 7 Andy Pettitte
CP Mariano Rivera
Utility infielder – Derek Jeter
Backup outfielder – Bernie Williams
much, much greater.
I believe in the Church of Baseball
Free FreeBradshaw!
by Frank Campagnola on Feb 17, 2011 4:06 PM EST up reply actions
not defensively of course
but you know
I R TEH HAX!!1!
by Brian5517209 on Feb 17, 2011 10:54 PM EST up reply actions
I'd take Paul O'Neill over the cancer known as Sheff.
and Bernie over Dale Murphy. Other than that, this is pretty solid.
Quick question...
Does the manager get the player in his prime, or how he was when he actually played for him?
by Let's Talk About Tex Baby on Feb 17, 2011 3:08 PM EST reply actions
Suggestions for Connie Mack's question marks
From digging around on www.baseball-almanac.com, I have a couple suggestions for the missing SPs.
One should definitely be Rube Waddell. He played from 1897-1910, amassing a career W-L record of 193-143 with an ERA of 2.16. He played for the A’s from 1902-1907, leading the AL in K’s each of those six seasons, and leading in ERA in 1905. (Baseball Almanac.com also mentions that he died heroically at age 37 from a cold contracted after standing in icy water up to his armpits while stacking sandbags to counter rising water from a broken dam.)
The other is a little more borderline. Waite Hoyt played on the ‘31 A’s, and I’d tend to go with him for obvious reasons (and his postseason numbers are not too shabby- ERA of 1.89 over 83.2 IP.) But there was a guy who played for the A’s between 1903 and 1914 named Chief Bender. His career numbers are in the ballpark of Waddell’s (W-L: 212-127, ERA 2.46, though Waddell has many, many more K’s in a shorter time: 2,316 vs. 1,711). But his name gives him a leg up on Hoyt.
Usqueadbaugham! Anam muck an dhoul ! Did ye drink me doornail?
Oh, duh, you've got Bender as closer.
Put in Hoyt, then.
Usqueadbaugham! Anam muck an dhoul ! Did ye drink me doornail?
Bender drank way too much
Here’s an actual picture from the 1911 World Series.
by long time listener on Feb 17, 2011 3:46 PM EST up reply actions
Wait, are we talking Baseball or Blernsball?
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Feb 17, 2011 3:56 PM EST up reply actions
not blernsball
Then I’d be talking about Tiny Iota.
by long time listener on Feb 17, 2011 4:12 PM EST up reply actions
Does it matter?
Wouldn’t the Mets still suck?
"When my time on Earth is gone, and my activities here are past, I want they bury me upside down so all my critics can kiss my a**"- Bob Knight
"Talent is God-given, be grateful. Fame is man-given, be humble. Conceit is self-given, be careful."- John Wooden
"Never take anything for granted. Don't forget, great prices have been paid and will be paid again if you become too smug, too egotistical and self-assured."- Johnny Cash
by JumpinJackFlash on Feb 17, 2011 4:29 PM EST up reply actions
funny
In the blernsball episode, they play a game at Shea Stadium and the sign outside says “Home of the 1986 Champions” (or something similar). Implying that the Mets hadn’t won a World Series of baseball or blernsball through the year 3000.
by long time listener on Feb 17, 2011 5:05 PM EST up reply actions
And, of course, the Cubs are still saying "there's always next year"
through the year 3000.
"When my time on Earth is gone, and my activities here are past, I want they bury me upside down so all my critics can kiss my a**"- Bob Knight
"Talent is God-given, be grateful. Fame is man-given, be humble. Conceit is self-given, be careful."- John Wooden
"Never take anything for granted. Don't forget, great prices have been paid and will be paid again if you become too smug, too egotistical and self-assured."- Johnny Cash
by JumpinJackFlash on Feb 17, 2011 6:21 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, I noticed that as well
Such a brilliant show!
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Feb 17, 2011 7:46 PM EST up reply actions
Joe McCarthy Cubs, Yankees, Red Sox)
C Bill Dickey
1B Lou Gehrig
2B Rogers Hornsby
SS Phil Rizzuto
3B Red Rolfe
LF Ted Williams
CF Joe DiMaggio
RF Babe Ruth
SP Lefty Grove
SP Red Ruffing
SP Spud Chandler
SP Vic Raschi
CP Joe Page
I’ll take this team against any posted so far.
Mickey C
McCarthy's team is actually close to Torre's team
And to correct my initial list, Jeter and Bernie Williams were Torre’s best shortstop and centerfielder by a smidge.
McCarthy’s team includes 4 of the 13 most valuable hitters of all time, and so, on offense, his team beats Torre’s team, 749.1 WAR to 508.3 WAR. However, Torre’s team includes 4 of the top 8 starting pitchers of all time, plus the best closer of all time, while the back of McCarthy’s rotation is weak (Spud Chandler and Vic Raschi total 47.4 WAR) and Joe Page’s career was worth about 1/9th of what Mariano Rivera’s has been. Torre wins in the pitching department, 477.7 WAR to 214 WAR.
Overall, Torre is ahead at 986 WAR to McCarthy’s 963.1, which is obviously really close. I’d probably say Torre’s team is superior, because the bar of “replacement level” was much lower in the ’30s and ’40s was much lower than it is today.
By the way, Joe Page probably has the worst nickname ever – “The Gay Reliever”.
Maybe he was just really happy to be pitching
February 14th, pitchers, catchers, and Messiahs report to Spring Training.
Have to disagree
For the McCarthy team, lifetime WAR is of limited value in comparisons for two reasons. First, some of the McCarthy team – Dimaggio, Williams, Rizzuto, Ruffing, Chandler, and Raschi – spent time in military service during WWII (and in Ted Williams’ case, during the Korean War as well), so lifetime WAR understates their ability. Second, UZR, the fielding component of WAR, cannot be calculated because the game film required for the calculation does not exist; legendary fielders like Rizzuto and Dimaggio lose out.
If you look at the position players by position, the comparison is overwhelmingly in favor of McCarthy’s team: Dickey vs Posada, Gehrig vs Giambi, Dimaggio vs Bernie Williams, Ruth vs Sheffield, etc.
I will concede third base. Even though on reflection I am substituting Johnny Pesky for Red Rolfe – Pesky had a higher WAR, even though losing three years to WWII – no one matches A-Rod.
As for pitching – and I apologize for saying Lefty Grove, it should be Lefty Gomez (and I note that no one caught that) – I agree that the Torre team has more depth, although I don’t think the difference is enough to offset the McCarthy team’s superiority among the position players. Both Gomez and Ruffing are HOF, and Gomez was listed by the Sporting News in 1998 as one of the 100 greatest players of all time. Vic Raschi was in the top 11 of the MVP voting four years in a row (1949-52) and was considered the ace of a staff that included Allie Reynolds, Eddie Lopat, and Tommy Byrne. Spud Chandler was a solid pitcher who retired with the highest winning percentage (.717) of any pitcher with at least 100 victories. If you don’t like Chandler, I can substitute Mel Parnell, or, for that matter, Babe Ruth, since we are not limiting the player to his time with the manager.
I will concede closer. When Joe Page was good, he was very, very good (4th in the MVP voting in 1947, 3rd in 1949) but he was inconsistent, and there is only one Mariano Rivera.
On balance, I still think that the McCarthy team is better overall.
Mickey C
I think the McCarthy team has my vote
Just imagine Ruth, Gehrig, Williams, Hornsby, and DiMaggio all in the same lineup. I think that would give any pitcher a nervous breakdown.
Usqueadbaugham! Anam muck an dhoul ! Did ye drink me doornail?
Gomez-Grove
d’oh!
The McCarthy team is impressive.
But what about Casey?
Yogi, Moose Skowron, Gil McDougald, Bobby Brown, Rizzuto, Enos Slaughter, DiMaggio, Mantle
Ford, Reynolds, Raschi, Lopat, Warren Spahn, Page
Obviously, the offense doesn’t have the same punch as McCarthy, but I think it’s ahead of Torre. And I think Casey’s pitching is as good as Torre’s.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
Stengel (Dodgers, Braves, Yankees, Mets)
Actually, Casey has more weapons than you’ve listed.
Dodgers: HOF Hack Wilson (and, if you like the name, Van Lingle Mungo)
Braves: HOFs Paul and Lloyd Waner (and Joe Dimaggio’s brother Vince)
Mets: Gil Hodges and HOF Duke Snider
Yankees: Johnny Mize, Johnny Sain, 1952 MVP Bobby Shantz, Bobby Richardson, Roger Maris and closer Ryne Duren.
I would put Mize in for Skowron, Duren for Page, and one of your HOF outfielders for Slaughter. Then I would replace Bobby Brown (good hit, no field) at third with McDougald and put Bobby Richardson in at second.
Mickey C
I forgot about Hodges and Snider. And you’re right that Snider should get the nod over Slaughter (who is a HOFer, too).
I’m happy with McDougald at 3B and Richardson at 2B, too.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
Don't forget Mize
The Big Cat had a lifetime WAR of 70, even though he spent three years in the military. In his prime, he was feared.
Mickey C
Just to point out.
John Smoltz was a SP for the braves. IIRC, an injury forced him into the bullpen where he was a solid closer, but he moved back to the rotation eventually I think.
"When my time on Earth is gone, and my activities here are past, I want they bury me upside down so all my critics can kiss my a**"- Bob Knight
"Talent is God-given, be grateful. Fame is man-given, be humble. Conceit is self-given, be careful."- John Wooden
"Never take anything for granted. Don't forget, great prices have been paid and will be paid again if you become too smug, too egotistical and self-assured."- Johnny Cash
by JumpinJackFlash on Feb 17, 2011 5:00 PM EST reply actions
I'd put Cobb in
right field and Speaker in center on Mack’s team. But thats nitpicking a little.
A-Rod was a shortstop
when he played for Piniella! Did Piniella ever manage Nettles? I’d have Nettles at third and A-Rod at short if I were Piniella. Umm, if he managed Nettles, I mean haha
...
I read that CC Sabathia is opting out… didn’t I tell you guys back during the Free Agency that CC didn’t want to be a Yankee?!
I’m tired of the Yankees throwing money at people who don’t want to play for us. We should be able to offer people less money like the Phillies and get them here. We should be able to home grow player like the Rays. It’s about time we start doing things like the Rays and keep our players unlike the Rays.
I used to be fascinated with baseball, but the Yankees overpaying players takes the fun out of the game for me.
Rex Ryan... I salute you!
...
I don’t care if we suck for 5 yrs, we should try to get some stars out of the our own system, like we did in the 90s.
Rex Ryan... I salute you!
Where did you see that CC IS opting out?
The most recent I saw said he’s unsure if he will or not.
"When my time on Earth is gone, and my activities here are past, I want they bury me upside down so all my critics can kiss my a**"- Bob Knight
"Talent is God-given, be grateful. Fame is man-given, be humble. Conceit is self-given, be careful."- John Wooden
"Never take anything for granted. Don't forget, great prices have been paid and will be paid again if you become too smug, too egotistical and self-assured."- Johnny Cash
by JumpinJackFlash on Feb 17, 2011 8:07 PM EST up reply actions
I meant "thinking about..."
But the point of the matter is that he shouldn’t even be thinking about opting out.
He’s another A-Rod. I was against resigning him and if CC opts out, I want the Yankees’ organization to wave good-bye.
Rex Ryan... I salute you!
If he has a good season, I could see him opting out.
He’d be looking for more money, and honestly I can’t blame him for that.
These things happen.
"When my time on Earth is gone, and my activities here are past, I want they bury me upside down so all my critics can kiss my a**"- Bob Knight
"Talent is God-given, be grateful. Fame is man-given, be humble. Conceit is self-given, be careful."- John Wooden
"Never take anything for granted. Don't forget, great prices have been paid and will be paid again if you become too smug, too egotistical and self-assured."- Johnny Cash
by JumpinJackFlash on Feb 17, 2011 8:22 PM EST up reply actions
He and anyone else who has a chance to opt out and get more money would be a moron not to do it.
Why on Earth would he play for less than he could make? It’s not like the Yankees wouldn’t resign him.
Not that serious.
People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring.
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Feb 17, 2011 10:22 PM EST up reply actions
Oh, right.
Thanks for reminding me! You know how I forget these things.
People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring.
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Feb 17, 2011 10:33 PM EST up reply actions
he's actually most likely re-signing with the Yankees after he opts out
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
While I agree that Torre's team is virtually untouchable as well as McCarthy's...
I tried to have a little fun and compile one for another coach.
Tony La Russa’s roster (He’s been short-handed on pitching greats)
C – Carlton Fisk
1B – Albert Pujols
2B – ?
SS – Ozzie Smith
3B – Scott Rolen
LF – Rickey Henderson
CF – Jim Edmonds
RF – Larry Walker
DH – Mark McGwire
SP – Chris Carpenter
SP – ?
SP – ?
SP – ?
SP – ?
CP – Dennis Eckersley
Strong hitting team… but Adam Wainwright looks to be the second best pitcher behind Carpenter. I don’t understand how La Russa hasn’t had a solid second baseman or great starting pitcher other than Carpenter in thirty or so years of coaching.
March 31st can't come soon enough.
what about Dave Stewart and Bob Welch?
Stewart’s overall career is so-so (an ERA+ of 100 and 23.7 WAR), but he was pretty good on those As teams that made 3 straight World Series. Bob Welch also had some pretty good years, including an ERA+ of 107 and 41.9 WAR, plus a Cy Young award. He has been a little weak at 2B – a couple of flashes in the pan like Tony Womack and Delino Deshields. I guess with that lineup you can get away with a speedy guy at the bottom of the order who plays good defense, though he kind of has that already with Ozzie Smith.
by long time listener on Feb 18, 2011 2:30 AM EST up reply actions
Edmonds had a WAR of about 72 or so at the end of his career
Baines was at 45. I never saw Baines play though, to be honest.
March 31st can't come soon enough.
by Chris McKeown on Feb 18, 2011 10:07 AM EST up reply actions
Skip Schumaker!
have you seen that moustache?
I R TEH HAX!!1!
by Brian5517209 on Feb 18, 2011 4:08 AM EST up reply actions
+1
March 31st can't come soon enough.
by Chris McKeown on Feb 18, 2011 10:06 AM EST up reply actions
C – Carlton Fisk
1B – Albert Pujols
2B – Tony Phillips
SS – Ozzie Smith
3B – Scott Rolen
LF – Rickey Henderson
CF – Jim Edmonds
RF – Larry Walker
DH – Mark McGwire
SP – Chris Carpenter
SP – Tom Seaver
SP – ?
SP – ?
SP – ?
CP – Dennis Eckersley
Leo Durocher
Putting together these “greatest” teams is always a lot of fun, but they always remind me of an interview that I saw with Leo Durocher. Someone asked Leo about the greatest players of all time. All he said was, “Let’s take all of the baseball players who ever played. You take any nine you want. I’ll pick from the rest, and it will be a heck of a game.”
Durocher himself could probably field a pretty respectable team. I haven’t researched it, but Jackie Robinson, Pee Wee Reese, Willie Mays, Ernie Banks, and Ron Santo come to mind to start with.
Mickey C
Yes, plus..
HOFs Robin Roberts, Johnny Mize, Monte Irvin, Hoyt Wilhelm, Tony Lazzeri, Roy Campanella, Duke Snider, Arky Vaughn, Paul Waner, and Ducky Medwick. There may be more; I just spent a few minutes browsing. If you want more pitching, he managed Sal Maglie and Curt Simmons.
Mickey C
Bobby Cox
I enjoyed the article but Tony Fernandez must replace Rafael Furcal on the Bobby Cox team.
Based on Fangraphs stats, at 32 Fernandez had an accumulated WAR of 40 while Furcal’s is only 32.6. If you don’t go in for WAR-type stats opposing managers in AL during his prime nearly unanimously put him at the top of the league. Anyway you slice it, Fernandez was the better player. I have no doubt Cox would agree.
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