Yankees/MLB Hot Stove Rumors - 12/7/2011
by Chris McKeown on Dec 7, 2011 5:49 PM EST
in New York Yankees Analysis
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PrintQuite a bit going on today in the world of baseball. This shouldn't come as a surprise considering the entire offseason has been relatively quiet other than the new CBA and the winter meetings are well underway.
Here are the top stories at the moment:
1) The Miami Marlins, who essentially cleaned house after winning the 2003 World Series to start fresh, have made yet another splash this afternoon and continue to spend money like drunken sailors. Hot on the heels of inking all-star shortstop Jose Reyes to a 6-year/$106 million contract (which happens to be extraordinarily backloaded) as well as all-star closer Heath Bell to a 3-year/$27 million deal, they've landed starting pitcher Mark Buehrle. The deal is reportedly for four-year and worth $58 million. Remember, Ozzie Guillen also fled the Chicago White Sox for Miami and that very well could have played a role in Buehrle's decision. This will be his first year ever in the National League, having spent his entire career in Chicago.
2) The Pittsburgh Pirates are hoping for the Erik Bedard of old and have decided to sign him to a one-year, $4.5 million deal. Not a terrible idea for the Pirates as they could benefit greatly if Bedard can remain healthy. I don't think any team would offer anything higher than what Pittsburgh as agreed to, so good for Bedard. Maybe he can get his career back on track in the NL Central.
More after the jump.
3) The San Diego Padres have found their replacement for Heath Bell by acquiring Huston Street from the Colorado Rockies for a PTBNL, who are merely going to pay $1 million of the $8 million he's due next season.
4) The New York Yankees won a bid on Japanese shortstop Hiroyuki Nakajima by putting up $2 million for him. It's widely believed that the Yankees would use him in a utility role. I'm sure he's thrilled if he spends a vast majority of his time sitting on the bench.
5) But of course, we can't forget about the illustrious Albert Pujols. It's being reported that he and the St. Louis Cardinals are slightly off on their proposed contracts by a couple million dollars. In all likelihood, he'll end up back in St. Louis. However, the Marlins haven't pulled their offer off the table yet.
We'll post developments throughout the evening if necessary.
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and continue to spend money like drunken sailors
Please explain to me how a Yankee fan can say this.
We could be drunken sailors too. The label is not exclusive, ye landlubber!
by bloppy_ploppy on Dec 7, 2011 6:01 PM EST up reply actions
And it does make me wonder how Marlins fans feel
Now money is available? NOW? After the last eight seasons of crappy baseball?
I wonder when the next FL fire sale will be …
2015
When they lose in the first round of the playoffs, however many teams the first round includes by then.
The idiot formerly known as pkyankeefan! Now in Technicolour!
by Hasan Paliwala on Dec 7, 2011 6:21 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Well...
The Marlins have never lost a playoff series… the problem for them seems to be getting there.
by mypisceannature on Dec 8, 2011 5:51 AM EST up reply actions
Well they're opening a new stadium...
It’s not like their spending is just out of the blue.
And as for the fire sale…the Marlins are projecting selling 2.8 million tickets in 2012 to cover their increased payroll. If they don’t perform as well as they expect they aren’t going to draw 2.8 million and they may have to start moving players. The thing is, nobody is going to want Jose Reyes at 17 mil a year or Mark Buehrle at 14 mil a year on long term contracts, so they’re going to have to trade the players who are already there who have more team-friendly contracts. Goodbye Hanley Ramirez (if he’s even there beyond this offseason), goodbye Josh Johnson.
So if they’re not serious contenders by 2013, this could really blow up in their faces.
by Let's Talk About Tex Baby on Dec 7, 2011 6:21 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not here to talk about the past
/Mark McGwire’d.
The idiot formerly known as pkyankeefan! Now in Technicolour!
by Hasan Paliwala on Dec 7, 2011 6:06 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Freedom of speech
an idiot has every right to call another person an idiot. God Bless Americuh.
-Giants-I bELIeve in this team. Playoffs are in sight all they have to do is fight for it. Keep Baas on the sidelines.
-Rangers-I like to think back to when Thorton called the Rangers soft and LOL! The FAs the Rangers have gotten are nice but this team has built its strength from within.
by Livestrong77nyy on Dec 7, 2011 6:13 PM EST up reply actions
I’ve never argued against the indisputable fact that the Yankees spend like drunken sailors as well.
Stupid is as stupid does… that’s what Gump’s momma always told him.
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." --Rogers Hornsby
by Chris McKeown on Dec 7, 2011 6:25 PM EST up reply actions
Personally, I love what Florida is doing now
Pricing the Yankees out of crazy contracts, and giving the Phillies a serious case of FA envy. Plus it’s always interesting to see teams try to buy success. If they win, you can hate them; if they don’t, you get good lulz.
The idiot formerly known as pkyankeefan! Now in Technicolour!
by Hasan Paliwala on Dec 7, 2011 6:19 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Bob Klapisch of the Bergen Record reports that C.J. Wilson signing with the Angels is “very close” to being finalized.
Jesus Montero fangirl
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Dec 7, 2011 6:43 PM EST reply actions
Yay!
Christmas is arriving early for the NYY.
Just once I'd like someone to call me "Sir," without adding, "You're making a scene."
How is this Christmas? We aren't going after anyone!?!? We are just sitting at home thinking our team is fine.
Check out the funniest person on youtube Edbassmaster: http://www.youtube.com/user/edbassmaster
Yankees>Rest of MLB
They Finally called up Baby Jesus
by BrettGardnerLF on Dec 7, 2011 7:04 PM EST up reply actions
ZOMG THE SKY IS FALLINGGGGG
NO SEXY SIGNING TO MAKE ME SLEEP AT NIGHT NOOOOOOO
by jetanumba2 on Dec 7, 2011 7:08 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
And at the price C.J. Wilson is demanding, as are the other available starters, the Yankees are better off staying put.
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
"Every day is a great day for hockey."
Now we should hope for the Angels to play awful and play awful early.
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
"Every day is a great day for hockey."
Or find out they don’t have as much money as they think they do.
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
"Every day is a great day for hockey."
This. Blanket "this" for your 4 above comments.
Just once I'd like someone to call me "Sir," without adding, "You're making a scene."
Marlins got Burhle(?).
Crouching moron, hidden smarta**
Optimism, pessimism, F*CK THAT; we're gonna make it happen. As God as my bloody witness, I'm hell-bent on making it work.
"This team is going to win a Super Bowl at some point."
Masai Ujiri, Brian Cashman: Magnificent Bastards
and Buehrle!
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
"Every day is a great day for hockey."
Purleyyy Purleeeee
Parley!
The idiot formerly known as pkyankeefan! Now in Technicolour!
by Hasan Paliwala on Dec 8, 2011 12:01 AM EST up reply actions
Now I know they’re pulling all the stops!!!
Crouching moron, hidden smarta**
Optimism, pessimism, F*CK THAT; we're gonna make it happen. As God as my bloody witness, I'm hell-bent on making it work.
"This team is going to win a Super Bowl at some point."
Masai Ujiri, Brian Cashman: Magnificent Bastards
Yankees have interest in Jon Niese. Anyone want to crunch the #‘s for me so I can know if it’s a good idea or not?
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
"Every day is a great day for hockey."
dude's got good stuff
he might be good once the Met washes off
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
He’ll be better once he’s out of Flushing.
Crouching moron, hidden smarta**
Optimism, pessimism, F*CK THAT; we're gonna make it happen. As God as my bloody witness, I'm hell-bent on making it work.
"This team is going to win a Super Bowl at some point."
Masai Ujiri, Brian Cashman: Magnificent Bastards
x
Few random comparisons:
Sorry for all the pictures.
Jesus Montero fangirl
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Dec 7, 2011 7:41 PM EST up reply actions
Too many lines, too many colors...
I'll do whatever it takes to win games, whether it's sitting on a bench waving a towel, handing a cup of water to a teammate, or hitting the game-winning shot.- Kobe Bryant
A.J. Burnett's only fan!
Below blue line = good, above blue line = bad.
Can’t really get any more simple than that.
Jesus Montero fangirl
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Dec 7, 2011 7:55 PM EST up reply actions
Well, depending on which graph, but it clearly says that.
Jesus Montero fangirl
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Dec 7, 2011 7:56 PM EST up reply actions
I'M CONFUSED!!!!
I'll do whatever it takes to win games, whether it's sitting on a bench waving a towel, handing a cup of water to a teammate, or hitting the game-winning shot.- Kobe Bryant
A.J. Burnett's only fan!
Thanks, interesting comparisons. From what I’ve read/heard Hector Noesi going to the rotation could be the best option.
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
"Every day is a great day for hockey."
Yankees rotation?
In place of who? They have five already and likely somebody else will be added via trade or free agency at some point.
I'll do whatever it takes to win games, whether it's sitting on a bench waving a towel, handing a cup of water to a teammate, or hitting the game-winning shot.- Kobe Bryant
A.J. Burnett's only fan!
Competition.
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
"Every day is a great day for hockey."
Well of the five currently on the team
Only Hughes isn’t guaranteed a spot, so if they make no moves then I could possibly see a competition between Hughes and Noesi.
If they get someone else like I expect, then they’ll have five guaranteed with no competition at all, so Noesi would go to the minors or the bullpen.
I do expect at some point due to injury that Noesi will make some starts though.
I'll do whatever it takes to win games, whether it's sitting on a bench waving a towel, handing a cup of water to a teammate, or hitting the game-winning shot.- Kobe Bryant
A.J. Burnett's only fan!
To make it through a 162 game season, you almost always need to use ~10 starting pitchers. Regardless of what other moves are made to add depth to the rotation, it is very likely that at least a few of Nosei, Betances, Phelps, Warren, etc. make some starts in 2012.
Baseball Statistics and Acronyms Explained
Follow me on the tweetbox - @LordDuggan12
That a reply to me?
Doesn’t seem like it was a reply to Barnd- never know though.
I'll do whatever it takes to win games, whether it's sitting on a bench waving a towel, handing a cup of water to a teammate, or hitting the game-winning shot.- Kobe Bryant
A.J. Burnett's only fan!
I don’t actually reply, I just say random shit.
Baseball Statistics and Acronyms Explained
Follow me on the tweetbox - @LordDuggan12
That explains a lot
I don't want to hear anymore CP3 to the Knicks trade rumors
Here’s a fun activity: rank the top 10 members of the Yankees organization in terms of value to the team.
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
"Every day is a great day for hockey."
I'll try
1. CC Sabathia
2. Robinson Cano
3. Mariano Rivera
4. Curtis Granderson
5. Alex Rodriguez
6. Derek Jeter
7. Mark Teixeira
8. David Robertson
9. Ivan Nova
10. Nick Swisher and Brett Gardner
BSME
Phil Hughes helped get his team to the playoffs
The Blue Jays did not make the playoffs
PHIL HUGHES IS MORE VALUABLE THAN JOSE BAUTISTA
by MichaelGGBGrabow on Dec 8, 2011 3:46 PM EST up reply actions
Taking this to mean that salary, age, and potential all factor into the trade/market value of each asset, off the top of my head I’d say:
1) Cano
2) Gardner
3) Granderson
4) Montero
5) Swisher
6) Sabathia
7) Nova
8) Banuelos
9) Robertson
10) Martin
Baseball Statistics and Acronyms Explained
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Martin is a cheap and team controlled catcher who defends well and doesn’t embarrass himself at the plate. I can guarantee if Cashman put him on the block right now he would get good offers.
Baseball Statistics and Acronyms Explained
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So why doesn't he????
I'll do whatever it takes to win games, whether it's sitting on a bench waving a towel, handing a cup of water to a teammate, or hitting the game-winning shot.- Kobe Bryant
A.J. Burnett's only fan!
Because
Martin is a cheap and team controlled catcher who defends well and doesn’t embarrass himself at the plate.
and those are good to have.
Baseball Statistics and Acronyms Explained
Follow me on the tweetbox - @LordDuggan12
Look man I just don't like Martin
Stop throwing facts at me!!!
Honestly I just want to see Montero behind the plate. If he actually gets his time next year, I’m fine with it. If we’re repeating September over the course of 6 months because of Russell Martin, I won’t be happy. It depends on whether or not they have Cervelli on the roster or if they trade him and go with only Montero and Martin.
I'll do whatever it takes to win games, whether it's sitting on a bench waving a towel, handing a cup of water to a teammate, or hitting the game-winning shot.- Kobe Bryant
A.J. Burnett's only fan!
It’s no secret that I’m about as high on Montero as it is possible to be, but dumping Russ just for the sake of it makes no sense. Assuming that Montero can be the every day starting catcher in the big leagues as a 22 year old is a risk that there’s no reason to take, and would probably hurt him more than it helped him.
Russ fell off a cliff last year when he caught every single day and injuries derailed his season. Hopefully with a non-Cervelli catching option he can stay healthy enough to avoid the huge slumps, Montero gets reps with the rotation and a less steep learning curve. We can re-evaluate the options next off-season when Russ is a free agent and we’ve got a better idea of where Montero is currently at with his catching.
Baseball Statistics and Acronyms Explained
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I wasn't suggesting just giving him up for no reason
But if they could actually get legitimate offers for him that could help this team in other areas, I wouldn’t mind them possibly doing that because of the catching depth (and by catching depth I mean Montero. Romine doesn’t count).
It’s probably not going to happen, so we’ll see how Russ does. If Montero gets 40+ games as a 22 year old then I’m fine with it. And hopefully not playing every single day will keep Martin closer to what he was in April and not what he was the rest of the year. But if Martin isn’t hitting and Montero is, I’ll want a change of roles. And then if Montero adapts well to catching and has learned the staff well, then I’m fine with letting Martin go after next year.
I'll do whatever it takes to win games, whether it's sitting on a bench waving a towel, handing a cup of water to a teammate, or hitting the game-winning shot.- Kobe Bryant
A.J. Burnett's only fan!
Russ...
I'll do whatever it takes to win games, whether it's sitting on a bench waving a towel, handing a cup of water to a teammate, or hitting the game-winning shot.- Kobe Bryant
A.J. Burnett's only fan!
My list, based on potential return in trade and potential surplus value in 2012:
1. Gardner
2. Cano
3. Granderson
4. Swisher
5. Montero
6. Nova
7. Banuelos
8. Robertson
9. Martin
10. Noesi
Jesus Montero has to be a full-time catcher, or the Yankees have to trade him. One or the other. Based on the age and contracts of the other players on this team, that's the only place he fits long-term on the Yankees roster.
Value on the field or value to the organization?
If it’s value to the team as a player, I’d do something like this.
1. Robinson Cano
2. CC Sabathia
3. Alex Rodriguez
4. Curtis Granderson
5. Brett Gardner
6. Ivan Nova
7. Nick Swisher
8. Mark Teixeira
9. Mariano Rivera
10. Derek Jeter
It’s different if you take into account salary, age and trade value like Lord Duggan (whoever the hell he is) did. If thats the case, I’d probably go…
1. Gardner
2. Cano
3. Montero
4. Swisher
5. Nova
6. CC
7. Granderson
8. ManBan
9. Robertson
10. A-Rod
Thats taking into account both value to the team and value in trade and all that other stuff.
I'll do whatever it takes to win games, whether it's sitting on a bench waving a towel, handing a cup of water to a teammate, or hitting the game-winning shot.- Kobe Bryant
A.J. Burnett's only fan!
Taking into account salary, age, and trade value (which is essentially salary, age, performance, projected performance, and risk involved), A-Rod doesn’t belong anywhere near this list.
Contributing writer for Pinstripe Alley.
Follow me on Twitter @frankiecamp48
by Frank Campagnola on Dec 7, 2011 8:57 PM EST up reply actions
In fact, I would probably take every single player on John Sickels’ upcoming Top 20 Yankees Prospects for 2012.
Looking at A-Rod, he is getting old, makes ridiculous amounts of money, is an above average hitter on the decline, and he’s had two major surgeries in the last three seasons.
Looking at that, we have:
Salary: Bad. Monumentally bad.
Age: Bad. Wrong side of 35.
Performance: Above average, declining
Future Performance: More declining
Risk: Two major surgeries in three seasons.
This is obviously just a sketch, but it gives you an idea of what someone’s trade value might look like.
Right now, A-Rod’s trade value, using Sky Kalkman’s Trade Value Calculator, is -$56MM. To put that in perspective, to even out his salary in a trade, the Yankees would need to include Jesus Montero and Manny Banuelos, assuming they weren’t eating any of the money.
That’s worse than A.J.’s trade value, which is -$16MM.
Contributing writer for Pinstripe Alley.
Follow me on Twitter @frankiecamp48
by Frank Campagnola on Dec 7, 2011 9:43 PM EST up reply actions
I didn't really have strict criteria
I just strongly believe that A-Rod presents a huge value to this team on the field, partly because simply of who he is, and partly because even in his worst season if his career last year he was still a 4 win player. He’s still one of the best players on the team, still one of the most valuable on the team, and I valued that higher than salary or trade value.
I'll do whatever it takes to win games, whether it's sitting on a bench waving a towel, handing a cup of water to a teammate, or hitting the game-winning shot.- Kobe Bryant
A.J. Burnett's only fan!
It’s different if you take into account salary, age and trade value like Lord Duggan (whoever the hell he is) did. If thats the case, I’d probably go…
You did have criteria. “Salary, age and trade value…”
Taking into account those criteria, he doesn’t belong anywhere near that list. And it’s not close.
Contributing writer for Pinstripe Alley.
Follow me on Twitter @frankiecamp48
by Frank Campagnola on Dec 7, 2011 11:27 PM EST up reply actions
Going off trade value, in my opinion, probably:
1. Gardner – Three years of team control left. Very productive. Cheap. Easy choice.
2. Cano – Two years of team control left. Best offensive 2B in baseball. Cheap considering production.
3. Granderson – Best offensive CF in AL. Under team control for two more years.
4. Montero – Best Major League ready bat in baseball. Six years of team control.
5. Nova – Five years of team control left coming off a 119 ERA+ rookie year.
6. Banuelos – Top pitching prospect in the system. At least 6 years of team control.
7. Betances – Top right handed pitching prospect in the system. At least 6 years of team control.
8. Swisher – 1 year of team control on the cheap considering production.
9. Martin – Above average defensive catcher with average hitting ability. 1 year of team control left.
10. Mason Williams – Rival execs calling him the # 2 prospect in the system (I wonder if they had Montero of Banuelos as number 1? Some lists have Banuelos at the top). Far away from the majors, will start year in High-A and Yankees have him on fast track. Legitimate five-tool player if he grows into his body (6’0", but only 150 lbs.) Would be much higher on this list if he was closer to the majors.
Contributing writer for Pinstripe Alley.
Follow me on Twitter @frankiecamp48
by Frank Campagnola on Dec 7, 2011 9:08 PM EST up reply actions
Gardner over Cano? Montero? Everyone? I love Gardner as much as the next guy but if you actually think that we would get more in return for Brett Gardner than Robinson Cano I really don’t know what to say. You’re just blatantly incorrect.
Gardner is younger, much cheaper, and has more team control. There’s more to trade value than talent alone.
Contributing writer for Pinstripe Alley.
Follow me on Twitter @frankiecamp48
by Frank Campagnola on Dec 7, 2011 11:26 PM EST up reply actions
wouldn't be surprised
#yankees not confident nakajima will sign considering low price he’s likely to get. May stay in japan.
Easy come, easy go.
Jesus Montero fangirl
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Dec 7, 2011 8:33 PM EST up reply actions
Just heard that Yu has decided to be posted
http://twitter.com/#!/DaigoFuji/status/144543976647700480
-Giants-I bELIeve in this team. Playoffs are in sight all they have to do is fight for it. Keep Baas on the sidelines.
-Rangers-I like to think back to when Thorton called the Rangers soft and LOL! The FAs the Rangers have gotten are nice but this team has built its strength from within.
Damn...
This’ll get interesting. I kind of didn’t want him to get posted, or at least not until as late as possible.
Waiting on the Marlins 100 million dollar bid…
I'll do whatever it takes to win games, whether it's sitting on a bench waving a towel, handing a cup of water to a teammate, or hitting the game-winning shot.- Kobe Bryant
A.J. Burnett's only fan!
Who knows
He may have decided to be posted but he has decided when. Somebody said that Verducci tweeted he will be posted next week.
-Giants-I bELIeve in this team. Playoffs are in sight all they have to do is fight for it. Keep Baas on the sidelines.
-Rangers-I like to think back to when Thorton called the Rangers soft and LOL! The FAs the Rangers have gotten are nice but this team has built its strength from within.
by Livestrong77nyy on Dec 7, 2011 8:01 PM EST up reply actions
has not*
-Giants-I bELIeve in this team. Playoffs are in sight all they have to do is fight for it. Keep Baas on the sidelines.
-Rangers-I like to think back to when Thorton called the Rangers soft and LOL! The FAs the Rangers have gotten are nice but this team has built its strength from within.
by Livestrong77nyy on Dec 7, 2011 8:01 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think this is good unless the Yankees sign him
I’m sure they’ll be in on him, but we can’t pretend he’s going to come cheap. And all indications so far seem to show that Cashman doesn’t want to make a big free agent signing. That could change obviously, but there’s a ton of money locked up already and if he truly wants to dump payroll and be at 189 million in 2014, another big contract won’t help him do that.
I’ve made no secret that I want Yu Darvish more than anyone, but if the Yankees truly aren’t going to make a legitimate attempt to get him, I’d rather he stay in Japan rather than go and compete for Cy Young for another team.
But he’s being posted, so I’ll cross my fingers that this turns out well.
I'll do whatever it takes to win games, whether it's sitting on a bench waving a towel, handing a cup of water to a teammate, or hitting the game-winning shot.- Kobe Bryant
A.J. Burnett's only fan!
Yankees, Blue Jays, Angels, and Rangers are the favorites
in my opinion. At the beginning of the off-season I really wanted to get Yu, but not so much after hearing about the Yankees budget in 14’. My perfect off-season would be to get Kuroda on a one-year deal and sign Jones to be the lefty OF. It would also help if AJ was traded so that the rotation would be set.
-Giants-I bELIeve in this team. Playoffs are in sight all they have to do is fight for it. Keep Baas on the sidelines.
-Rangers-I like to think back to when Thorton called the Rangers soft and LOL! The FAs the Rangers have gotten are nice but this team has built its strength from within.
by Livestrong77nyy on Dec 7, 2011 8:18 PM EST up reply actions
You think Hughes deserves a guaranteed spot in the rotation?
Jesus Montero fangirl
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Dec 7, 2011 8:19 PM EST up reply actions
No
Nobody deserves to have a guaranteed spot in the rotation after the inconsistency that Hughes has shown. I do think he will bounce back though and I think the Yankees would be better off with Hughes in the rotation instead of AJ. The Yankees would get younger and cheaper at the same time. If this plan does not work out then Noesi and Phelps seem like very capable MLB starters.
-Giants-I bELIeve in this team. Playoffs are in sight all they have to do is fight for it. Keep Baas on the sidelines.
-Rangers-I like to think back to when Thorton called the Rangers soft and LOL! The FAs the Rangers have gotten are nice but this team has built its strength from within.
by Livestrong77nyy on Dec 7, 2011 8:27 PM EST up reply actions
I truly wonder about Hughes. I’d love to be wrong about him, but the fact that he could only REALLY put it together for the first half of 2010 makes me question it.
Jesus Montero fangirl
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Dec 7, 2011 8:31 PM EST up reply actions
He is very capable
that first half season is evidence of that. I don’t think it is really a question of talent. His focus and conditioning seem to be the problem. Hughes’ body just could not handle the entire 2010 season and his entire repertoire suffered. 2011 was just a complete failure due to a variety of reasons. Just have to hope for the best 12’.
-Giants-I bELIeve in this team. Playoffs are in sight all they have to do is fight for it. Keep Baas on the sidelines.
-Rangers-I like to think back to when Thorton called the Rangers soft and LOL! The FAs the Rangers have gotten are nice but this team has built its strength from within.
by Livestrong77nyy on Dec 7, 2011 8:41 PM EST up reply actions
I feel he has more upside than AJ
We know what we get with AJ and I would rather Hughes get a spot and see what he can do.
It would make more sense to release AJ than to put him in the pen
In the pen he’d be a $33 mil long reliever with zero value.
If they cut him they’d save about $13 mil in luxury tax over the next 2 years.
by Let's Talk About Tex Baby on Dec 7, 2011 10:38 PM EST up reply actions
It's not happening
Whether Hughes has more upside or not is irrelevant. AJ’s in the rotation, and Hughes is in the bullpen the minute another capable starter is brought in (if one is brought in).
This is why I don’t like the Garcia signing, but it is what it is. Given the Yankees reluctance to make any moves so far and the number of times Cashman has said “we have a lot of talent already”, I’m starting to believe that it’ll be CC-AJ-Nova-Garcia-Hughes for next year anyway.
I'll do whatever it takes to win games, whether it's sitting on a bench waving a towel, handing a cup of water to a teammate, or hitting the game-winning shot.- Kobe Bryant
A.J. Burnett's only fan!
Rotation would be set anyways
And I think Jones will come back. Not sure on Kuroda- don’t really have an opinion on him.
I'll do whatever it takes to win games, whether it's sitting on a bench waving a towel, handing a cup of water to a teammate, or hitting the game-winning shot.- Kobe Bryant
A.J. Burnett's only fan!
He would be a very capable one year stop gap
Until one of our young starters is ready to take on the rotation full time. It also would allow the Yankees to remain competitive without making much of a dent on the payroll.
-Giants-I bELIeve in this team. Playoffs are in sight all they have to do is fight for it. Keep Baas on the sidelines.
-Rangers-I like to think back to when Thorton called the Rangers soft and LOL! The FAs the Rangers have gotten are nice but this team has built its strength from within.
by Livestrong77nyy on Dec 7, 2011 8:30 PM EST up reply actions
Are you telling me I'm not allowed to comment on a relevant topic?
Oh, sorry then…
I'll do whatever it takes to win games, whether it's sitting on a bench waving a towel, handing a cup of water to a teammate, or hitting the game-winning shot.- Kobe Bryant
A.J. Burnett's only fan!
I didn't even bring it up
Someone said he was being posted and I replied on it. No “gushing” at all if thats what you call it. So I don’t understand what the problem is.
I'll do whatever it takes to win games, whether it's sitting on a bench waving a towel, handing a cup of water to a teammate, or hitting the game-winning shot.- Kobe Bryant
A.J. Burnett's only fan!
There's the random shit you were talking about...
I'll do whatever it takes to win games, whether it's sitting on a bench waving a towel, handing a cup of water to a teammate, or hitting the game-winning shot.- Kobe Bryant
A.J. Burnett's only fan!
His friends must have enjoyed that so much..
I am off to convince somebody to light their crotch on fire.
-Giants-I bELIeve in this team. Playoffs are in sight all they have to do is fight for it. Keep Baas on the sidelines.
-Rangers-I like to think back to when Thorton called the Rangers soft and LOL! The FAs the Rangers have gotten are nice but this team has built its strength from within.
by Livestrong77nyy on Dec 7, 2011 8:19 PM EST up reply actions
Find Free's house
I'll do whatever it takes to win games, whether it's sitting on a bench waving a towel, handing a cup of water to a teammate, or hitting the game-winning shot.- Kobe Bryant
A.J. Burnett's only fan!
unbelievable
#Marlins “best bet” for Wilson. #Angels close second.
The Giants are out on Beltran and Ross. Stay away Mr. Cashman.
A sure sign of the apocalypse
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=Atby6FAPP75Dzov0lNmSk30RvLYF?slug=ap-frickaward
McCarver as HOF announcer
"I don't want one of those guys who'll drive in two but let in three every game." Casey Stengel
by tnredneckyankeesfan on Dec 7, 2011 8:58 PM EST reply actions
I want to see a Marlins rotation of:
Josh Johnson
C.J. Wilson (looking more and more possible)
Yu Darvish
Mark Buehrle
Ricky Nolasco/Anibal Sanchez
Also, go get Cespedes to play CF and then take a look around the diamond. Wow.
We’d be looking at possibly/arguably the deepest rotation in baseball to go along with:
C: John Buck
1B: Gaby Sanchez
2B: Omar Infante
SS: Jose Reyes
3B: Hanley Ramirez
LF: Logan Morrison
CF: Yoenis Cespedes
RF: Mike Stanton
It’s certainly a lot of spending, but is anything really out of the question with this team right now?
Contributing writer for Pinstripe Alley.
Follow me on Twitter @frankiecamp48
by Frank Campagnola on Dec 7, 2011 9:19 PM EST reply actions
The Marlins are a serious contender for the 2012 Offseason champions. But we all know what happened to last year’s winner.
Just how likely is Wilson to the Marlins? Aren’t the Angels the frontrunner or something? And what’s the latest on Hanley? He still wants to play SS right?
by bloppy_ploppy on Dec 7, 2011 9:26 PM EST up reply actions
oh nevermind about Wilson. But what about Hanley?
by bloppy_ploppy on Dec 7, 2011 9:27 PM EST up reply actions
Marlins are saying they don’t view the Hanley situation as a problem. The report is on their team website. The headline was something like “Marlins: Hanley Not a Problem.”
Also, “jetanumba2” posted above that the Marlins are the frontrunners for Wilson.
Contributing writer for Pinstripe Alley.
Follow me on Twitter @frankiecamp48
by Frank Campagnola on Dec 7, 2011 9:29 PM EST up reply actions
“The Marlins have spent $191 million dollars on free-agents this week”
I can only imagine the narrative if Marlins read as Yankees…
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Dec 7, 2011 9:26 PM EST reply actions
You should!
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Dec 7, 2011 10:08 PM EST up reply actions
2 former Yankee relievers are continuing their quests to play for every team in the majors
Latroy Hawkins to the Angels and Octavio Dotel to the Tigers
Home of the Jared Jeffries Shot Tracker
Official line of Scott Kazmir in his debut in the Dominican Winter League: 0.1 IP, 2 H, 4 ER, 2 walks, 0 K (27 pitches)
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by Jedi Master A-Rod on Dec 7, 2011 9:49 PM EST reply actions
Sign him!
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Dec 7, 2011 10:07 PM EST up reply actions
Si! Es muy bueno!
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Dec 7, 2011 10:11 PM EST up reply actions
Why is everyone listing Brett Gardner ahead of Robinson Cano in terms of trade value(and yes i realize that’s including contract potential and all that). So you think Brett Gardner would get us more in return than Robinson Cano????? That’s just a stupid argument.
Agreed, that's a serious overvalue of Gardner
Cano’s under 30, one of the best players in the game and is under team control for 2 more years on a team friendly contract. If the Yankees were looking to trade him, they could expect either another star in his prime with a similar contractual situation or another team’s 2 best prospects.
by Let's Talk About Tex Baby on Dec 7, 2011 10:26 PM EST up reply actions
I love crunching numbers(stats and contracts) and determing players values as much as the next guy but I think sometimes some members of this site take that to an extreme level. You crunch the numbers on Robby’s contract and Gardner’s contract and then crunch their statistics, and take into account position and potential and AFTER ALL OF THAT a majority of the members on this site have come to the conclusion that Brett Gardner is a more valuable trade chip THAN ROBINSON CANO??????……………………………………….Starting calling up GM’s and ask them who they would want more in a trade….Go call up the Florida Marlins and ask them who they would overpay more for…….Since I know a lot of you do know baseball, this disgusts me even more. Get your head screwed on straight and look at things logically using your own 2 eyes sometimes and stop confusing yourself by crunching all these stupid #‘s. This conversation shouldn’t even be taking place.
Haha, this is really bothering you, isn't it?
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Dec 7, 2011 10:47 PM EST up reply actions
....you haven't been here long then
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Dec 7, 2011 10:48 PM EST up reply actions
My guess is
It probably has to do with the fact that, after said trade is made, Gardner’s value would actually be affordable as oppose to Cano, who in 2 years is going to be one of the highest paid players in all of baseball.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Dec 7, 2011 10:52 PM EST up reply actions
Majority? There’s like 3 people that said that (answering a question that wasn’t just about trade value).
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by Jedi Master A-Rod on Dec 7, 2011 10:53 PM EST up reply actions
Sorry, I'm at work
My pitchfork and torch are at home
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Dec 7, 2011 10:55 PM EST up reply actions
Plenty of time to get butthurt about it after
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by Jedi Master A-Rod on Dec 7, 2011 10:56 PM EST up reply actions
You're not talking about arguing against it
You’ve quite literally been rabid about the very idea of it.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Dec 7, 2011 10:58 PM EST up reply actions
You'd like me to argue against it? Ok
Thoughts on Cano: a high paid player who might be the BEST OF ALL TIME at his position at the end of his career, with great hands(both offensively and defensively), one of the sweetest swings in the game, can hit for power to all fields, probably the best arm at his position in the league
Thoughts on Gardner: a low paid player who is a good fielder, great speed, zero power, his batting avg struggles to be respectable even with the blazing speed(i dont want to see what it will be when his speed begins to decrease). He goes through outrageous ups and downs throughout the season. You can literally go a few months and get nothing out of him offensively. With the speed he has it makes me wonder why he goes into slumps and that worries me. I think players of similar ability aren’t hard to find.
Final Arguments:
We are talking about maybe the best second baseman of ALL TIME against a quick slap hitting outfielder who will make a lot less money. Theres a reason the guy is going to be one of the highest paid players in baseball and the other isnt. one is a hall of famer, a super star, one of the greats, and the other is Juan Pierre.
Final Deicision: Cano
Okay, now riddle me this...
From a logical standpoint, who would you rather trade for if you were a GM on most MLB teams? A player who, in 3 years, will probably still be the best defensive outfielder in the MLB who, with his incredible speed, defensive, plate discipline and OBP will come cheap if you actually want to keep him…
Or the BEST SECOND BASEMAN OF ALL TIME who, in 2 years, that’s one year less, will probably be worth an A-Rodian type contract because he’s possibly the BEST SECOND BASEMAN OF ALL TIME and will most likely be so expensive that quite possibly only the team you traded from will be able to afford him, and thus you would have given up your star prospects for a player you cannot keep past 2014?
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Dec 8, 2011 12:14 AM EST up reply actions
Five people answered, three put Gardner first. So maybe it’s a majority of the people who answered, but it’s by no means a majority of the site, or even representative of anything other than those 5 people’s opinions.
Jesus Montero fangirl
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Dec 7, 2011 11:53 PM EST up reply actions
You're right in a lot of that...
Stats are great because they present a situation clear of the inherent bias that exists in normal human perception.
But just because there’s a statistical formula that shows something doesn’t mean it’s correct. If the formula suggests something that can be easily reasoned to be false – like Gardner being more valuable than Cano in any sense – then the logical conclusion shouldn’t be that it must be true, but that there’s something flawed in the formula.
by Let's Talk About Tex Baby on Dec 7, 2011 10:53 PM EST up reply actions
I’m using Sky Kalkman’s Trade Value Calculator and the standard 1/2 win drop per season. I’ll keep 2012 WAR totals the same as 2011.
(Note: WAR numbers are conservative. Kalkman likes to use a 1/2 drop per season. This doesn’t mean everyone will fall by 1/2 win per season, but it is very common. I used it for both players to avoid bias).
Robinson Cano:
2012 contract, projected WAR: $14M, 5.6 WAR
2013 contract, projected WAR: $15M, 5.1 WAR
Brett Gardner:
(Note: Salaries are based off loose guesses of arbitration raises. MLB Trade Rumors, projected $3.3M for 2012, so I based 2013 and 2014 off that number)
Projected 2012 contract, projected WAR: $3.3M, 5.1
Projected 2013 contract, projected WAR: $5.5M, 4.6
Projected 2014 contract, projected WAR: $7.5M, 4.1
Results:
Brett Gardner Net Trade Value: ~$52M
Robinson Cano Net Trade Value: ~$25M
Also, even if I plug in Cano’s season high in WAR for 2012 and 2013, his net trade value becomes $35.3M and is still not close to Gardner’s.
Contributing writer for Pinstripe Alley.
Follow me on Twitter @frankiecamp48
by Frank Campagnola on Dec 7, 2011 11:45 PM EST up reply actions
You’re right, but trade value is calculated on a calculator!
Contributing writer for Pinstripe Alley.
Follow me on Twitter @frankiecamp48
by Frank Campagnola on Dec 8, 2011 12:07 AM EST up reply actions
In baseball there's a battle between a pitcher and a hitter
Whoever has the biggest balls wins. All these pencil pushers don’t know how to really win games: thorugh sheer grit, hard work, determination, and scruffy mustaches.
They have those?
Baseball Statistics and Acronyms Explained
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Jedi Master A-Rod is a poster on Pinstripe Alley. He can be reached by clicking the "Reply" button below his comments.
by Jedi Master A-Rod on Dec 8, 2011 12:06 AM EST up reply actions
I see you havent had much pie yet
Sorry, it was too easy,lol
Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.
That’s not really my cup of tea.
Contributing writer for Pinstripe Alley.
Follow me on Twitter @frankiecamp48
by Frank Campagnola on Dec 8, 2011 12:08 AM EST up reply actions
hahahahaha THOSE NUMBERS INDICATE THAT BRETT GARDNER HAS DOUBLE THE TRADE VALUE
That’s when you know your numbers are completely flawed. So Brett Gardner should get twice the return as Robinson Cano??? That’s seriously comical to me. WAR is a joke. You want to know who has the SECOND highest defensive WAR behind Gardner….CARLOS LEE…when Carlos Lee is second in a defensive category you know it’s flawed. Mike Stanton third…not a bad fielder but certainly not the third most valuable defensive player. Taking money out of it Pablo Sandoval has a higher OVERALL WAR than Robinson Cano and gets paid less money, so Pablo Sandoval would get more in a trade than Robinson Cano??? hahahahahaha. Pablo Sandoval also has a higher WAR than Albert Pujols. SO EVEN IF THEIR CONTRACTS WERE THE SAME, ACCORDING TO YOUR LOGIC, PABLO SANDOVAL, NOT ONLY WAS THE MORE VALUABLE PLAYER, HE WOULD HAVE A HIGHER RETURN. So factoring in the money, Pablo Sandoval would probably get like 5x the return. It’s sad that you look at those numbers and actually think they’re accurate. It really is.
You are showing a complete lack of knowledge of WAR and UZR.
Think about this for a second: Alex Rodriguez was traded to the Yankees, along with a lot of money, for Alfonso Soriano and a low level minor leaguer that never panned out.
Why? Because Alex Rodriguez made a lot of money, and that significantly lowered his trade value. He was one of, if not the best player in baseball at the time of the trade, but did not net much in return.
Contracts play a major part of trade value. I’m not sure why you hate that idea so much.
Contributing writer for Pinstripe Alley.
Follow me on Twitter @frankiecamp48
by Frank Campagnola on Dec 8, 2011 12:28 AM EST up reply actions
- it was the highest contract in baseball history
- it was a team that literally couldnt afford him and field a team
- no other teams could even handle that contract
- texas had zero leverage because of that
- soriano is actually a good return considering at that time
- gardner if was on that texas team WOULDNT have been traded for soriano at that time, definitely not 2 sorianos
- it was a team that literally couldnt afford him and field a team
- no other teams could even handle that contract
And you don’t think that will be the case with Cano?
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Dec 8, 2011 12:37 AM EST up reply actions
haha no i dont robinson cano will not make 250 million dollars
you guys are arguing that brett gardner, who hit 259 last season, has TWICE the trade value as robinson cano. im sorry but i cant agree with that. i dont think thats crazy for me to say
You're missing the point
And still haven’t answered my question. Why would anyone trade their best prospects for him when they know that in 2 years they will literally have about 5% of keeping him due to the insane amount of money he will be worth?
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Dec 8, 2011 12:42 AM EST up reply actions
This is exactly the point.
Contributing writer for Pinstripe Alley.
Follow me on Twitter @frankiecamp48
by Frank Campagnola on Dec 8, 2011 12:44 AM EST up reply actions
Oh I'm aware of your point
Clearly, he is not!
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Dec 8, 2011 12:45 AM EST up reply actions
I’m just trying to figure out why contracts and money owed to a player are difficult concepts to grasp when discussing trade value.
Contributing writer for Pinstripe Alley.
Follow me on Twitter @frankiecamp48
by Frank Campagnola on Dec 8, 2011 12:46 AM EST up reply actions
Why are you continuing to completely ignore the points IGYAR and myself are making?
Contributing writer for Pinstripe Alley.
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by Frank Campagnola on Dec 8, 2011 12:49 AM EST up reply actions
I’m assuming “him” in your comment refers to Cano?
Contributing writer for Pinstripe Alley.
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by Frank Campagnola on Dec 8, 2011 12:52 AM EST up reply actions
yea.
this is how i think of it. im the angels. if i was offered Cano for Clayton Richard(#2 prospect) or Gardner for Clayton Richard and Jean Segura(#3 prospect) i dont think of those deals as deals i have equal interest in doing. according to gardner being worth double, those 2 deals should be similar. More realistically if u offered them Cano for Clayton Richard and Gardner for Richard, you honestly think they would choose Gardner???(didnt use trout since his value is through the roof) if you can honestly say youd choose the gardner deal than OK idk what else to say i disagree
Dude. It really depends on the situation. Cano makes a lot of money. Gardner doesn’t. If I’m a team like the A’s and I’m strapped for cash, you better believe I’m taking Gardner.
There’s a reason he was the apparent centerpiece in a trade for Gio Gonzalez. His trade value is very high.
Contributing writer for Pinstripe Alley.
Follow me on Twitter @frankiecamp48
by Frank Campagnola on Dec 8, 2011 1:06 AM EST up reply actions
haha ok if u are the.........
cubs
cards
angels
dodgers
white sox
red sox
texas
phili
atlanta
miami
mets
mariners
orioles
blue jays
nationals
giants
i think all of those teams do that deal and laugh after…teams like the reds a’s royals rays and those scums i’d have to think about it for a sec but id quickly realize i can go find a gardner any day of the week and that cano is a once in a lifetime talent that would do so much for my team even if its for 2 years
You’re highly overrating Robinson Cano.
Contributing writer for Pinstripe Alley.
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by Frank Campagnola on Dec 8, 2011 1:13 AM EST up reply actions
hahahaha im overrating cano but ur not overrating gardner
come on answer:
You’re the Angels…..
Option A:
Cano for Richard
Option B:
Gardner for Richard
If I’m the Angels of course I take Cano. The Angels don’t need an outfielder.
Listen, I’m not arguing that Brett Gardner is better than Robinson Cano. That’s not the issue.
Any team would want the best player, but there are other issues to consider here.
Gardner is cheap, Cano is not.
Cano has two years of team control, Gardner has three.
Gardner is the best defensive outfielder in baseball, and defensive metrics don’t really like Cano as a fielder.
Gardner walks a lot, Cano does not.
Cano has power and average on Gardner. That’s it, and there’s a lot more to being a complete player than power and batting average.
Contributing writer for Pinstripe Alley.
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by Frank Campagnola on Dec 8, 2011 1:17 AM EST up reply actions
Are you reading what I am writing?
This is not about which player is better. It is about value.
Contributing writer for Pinstripe Alley.
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by Frank Campagnola on Dec 8, 2011 1:21 AM EST up reply actions
ok weigh that value
if u are the angels, take away the OF’s and open up 2b and are offered
Cano for Clayton Richard
OR
Gardner for Clayton Richard
using money, talent, all ur stats, who do u take?
You really don’t get it. For the last time, this is not about trading for Gardner or trading for Cano.
Gardner has more trade value, that is all.
It’s not about which player a random team would rather have.
Contributing writer for Pinstripe Alley.
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by Frank Campagnola on Dec 8, 2011 1:26 AM EST up reply actions
haha well if these teams would choose cano over gardner......
…………doesnt that make cano’s value higher?
Look, Robinson Cano is a toy
An amazing, shiny toy, but a toy. You get to keep him for two years, and pay him $30 mn. If your budget is maxed out after that, you’ll need to find a cheap OF who is very good.
You take Brett Gardner, and you have $30 mn left to spend (or, say, $25 mn) on other players. Say you also need a SP. Are you going to blow everything on Cano because he’s an excellent player? Maybe, maybe not. If you do, you’re hoping your cheap OF is going to give you great production.
The idiot formerly known as pkyankeefan! Now in Technicolour!
by Hasan Paliwala on Dec 8, 2011 1:29 AM EST up reply actions
why cant you guys answer........
one person said cano, i say cano….under that angels scenerio who do you choose?? that is what makes trade value, who is valued more? haha and if teams would choose cano, then he is valued more.who would u choose?
Why can't we answe...
Fraaaaaaaaank, can I bold my curses again PLEEAAAAAAAASE?
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Dec 8, 2011 1:33 AM EST up reply actions
Do you choose the same under the A's scenario?
No, you don’t.
The idiot formerly known as pkyankeefan! Now in Technicolour!
by Hasan Paliwala on Dec 8, 2011 1:34 AM EST up reply actions
I'll try
Teams have to find undervalued players at some position. If they pay market value for everyone, they’ll have to pay $200 mn (or more) to get a 100 win team.
If they take Cano, they have to find cheaper production elsewhere. If they take Gardner, they can pay someone else market value for production that is worth that amount of money.
The idiot formerly known as pkyankeefan! Now in Technicolour!
by Hasan Paliwala on Dec 8, 2011 1:24 AM EST up reply actions
agreed.
so who do u take today if that deal is offered to you and ur the new angel GM Dipotto or whatever……………………………….
I look at my needs
I don’t necessarily agree with the double valuation (it is, after all, an estimate), but think about it. Or, well, here’s a better idea.
It’s not about who one person would take or not. The team who’s taking the market value player understands that it’s getting what it’s paid for. The team that takes the undervalued contract agrees that it’s getting more than what it paid for.
Who would you take in a trade right now? Dustin Ackley or Robinson Cano?
The idiot formerly known as pkyankeefan! Now in Technicolour!
by Hasan Paliwala on Dec 8, 2011 1:33 AM EST up reply actions
LOL, so now you recognize payroll and contracts?
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by Frank Campagnola on Dec 8, 2011 1:37 AM EST up reply actions
Trust me, he doesn't
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Dec 8, 2011 1:40 AM EST up reply actions
What is ordinary about an elite defensive outfielder with above average offensive abilities?
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by Frank Campagnola on Dec 8, 2011 1:42 AM EST up reply actions
his skill set is very ordinary. speed, lots of guys have speed. that is his offensive repitoire. nothing else. he batted 259. his defense is great, but i think there are plenty of guys i can find that can bat 259, steal a good amount of bags and play comparable defense. juan pierre did it for years. do i think he is so valuable? no. cano at this point in his career compared to other 2b at this age(post 1940) and he is the best second baseman of all time. thats rare. he will be a hall of famer, thats rare. its a gigantic gap in talent, gigantic.
zomg batting average is all!
Jesus Montero fangirl
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Dec 8, 2011 1:49 AM EST up reply actions
Lots of guys have speed?
He batted .259? play comparable defense to the BEST defense in the league bar none? Dude you must be religious.
his defense is great(and i certainly dont think that cause his Defensive WAR). but i think you can find a guy with speed that plays similar(but a little worse defense) and offers a lot more than speed on the offensive side. When his speed starts decreasing(which yes happens with age), he’s so dependent on speed that his BA will be disastrous. Cano’s assets arent going to diminish as quickly.
He'll also be making $28 mn for that
While Gardner will likely be making $4 mn.
A team who’d take Cano thinks it can win a championship in those two years. A team who takes Gardner thinks it can use him to get close to contention, and THEN get someone like Cano.
The idiot formerly known as pkyankeefan! Now in Technicolour!
by Hasan Paliwala on Dec 8, 2011 1:56 AM EST up reply actions
No, his defense is the BEST
And he comes cheap. Cano’s 2nd baseman-ing is also the best, in your eyes, but he will NOT come cheap. So, you can get the best defensive OF in the league and a not-quite-as-good-2B as Cano AND sign Gardner for a lot longer OR you get Cano and a scrub for TWO YEARS because you cannot afford to keep Cano.
I mean, holy shit, what about this don’t you understand?
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Dec 8, 2011 1:56 AM EST up reply actions
haha i think your taking me disagreeing with you that i dont understand. u have 100 mill, u spend 20 on someone, u have 80 omggg u guys are so deep. haha obvi a joke but i think more than half the teams in baseball would take cano for that money and give up substantial amounts for him, many of them thinking they can pay him that money. but even then id take cano for those 2 seasons and hope i can sign him as opposed to a guy like gardy who i think i can find a player who, while he may be worse, is comparable to him. haha like yes u spend money, it leaves u with less later to spend, sure but by the way u guys think no player ever is worth a deal over 15 mill a year or so. if it leaves u less money later so be it, but i think its easier to go find supporting talent with not as much money as it is to add top tier talent that seperates u from ur competition. you just don’t find those guys. i think a vast majority of MLB GM’s agree with that, and would look at cano and what he adds as worth it. one of these days gardner will be traded and itll be for sooo much less than what you guys expect because most MLB GM’s don’t value him and think the way u do. I don’t think its crazy to say robinson cano, while factoring in contract and all of that, has more trade value than brett gardner, a guy whose skill set is based solely around a part of his body that will fade. i think if you went around baseball and polled GM’s, who has more trade value(talent, contract, age, potential) they would agree with me.
You didn't answer my question below, though
Cano, or Cano and $10 mn?
The idiot formerly known as pkyankeefan! Now in Technicolour!
by Hasan Paliwala on Dec 8, 2011 2:31 AM EST up reply actions
HAHAHAHAHA
Oh, it’s more that just disagreement. No, you’re clearly not getting it because you continue to bring up the same point that Cano is worth more because he’s a better player.
Like I’ve stated time and time again, who’s trading away any player of value for Cano, someone they’d only be able to keep for TWO years. only then to trade him back to the Yankees or another upper tier spending team for nothing because all that team really wants is for the Yankees to take the contract off their hands? Like Frank said a while ago, that’s why we got A-Rod in the first place, because we were the only ones that could really afford him at the time. Texas did spend that money on A-Rod, it didn’t work out, and they had to cut their losses. That’s almost the same thing that would happen with Cano, so why would any intelligent GM do that, especially when they know they’re only getting two years out of Cano AND giving up their best prospects.
What you don’t seem to grasp is that because Cano will be worth so much, he’s also worth almost nothing because no intelligent GM is taking him and his soon to be expensive contract, nor are they giving up as much.
If Gardner is traded, it will be for a either someone really important at another position as well as the fact that they have someone better than him to replace him, which yes can be done.
If Cano is as good as you say he is, then he would only net someone as good or better either at 2B or another position, but there would be no one better to replace him at 2B. And since it makes no sense for any other team to take on his huge contract, not only are we not going to really get anything back for him, but we will never get anything back that’s better than him, therefore making his TRADE value, NOT player value, but TRADE value next to nothing!
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Dec 8, 2011 3:05 AM EST up reply actions
Stop only citing batting average.
Use on base percentage, which is inclusive of batting average.
And for the record, their OBPs have been nearly identical in the last two years, meaning they make a similar amount of outs.
Brett Gardner OBP:
2010: .383
2011: .345
Robinson Cano OBP
2010: .381
2011: .349
Contributing writer for Pinstripe Alley.
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by Frank Campagnola on Dec 8, 2011 1:56 AM EST up reply actions
Only a religious person can look at all the fact base proof in the world
And still hold onto the same belief stubbornly.
by Branta on Dec 8, 2011 2:15 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You should have applied to be GM of the Red Sox
You would have led them to 9 consecutive world championships, no doubt.
Who would you take in a trade right now? Dustin Ackley or Robinson Cano?
The hell does Gardner have to do with that?
Contributing writer for Pinstripe Alley.
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by Frank Campagnola on Dec 8, 2011 1:40 AM EST up reply actions
You responded to it. I responded to your response to that question, which brought up Brett Gardner.
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by Frank Campagnola on Dec 8, 2011 1:42 AM EST up reply actions
we’ve been comparing gardners value to cano’s. so asking me if id trade cano for ackley is asking me to compare their value. because ackley, to me, has much more value than gardner and makes a better case than gardner, i think its fair to mention that i think ackley has far more value than brett gardner??? is that strange?
No, all it's saying is that you don't value defense as much as you value offense
End of story. You apparently also don’t value years of control. Or how much you pay for what you get. But the question is who is the bigger bargain, not who is the better player.
The idiot formerly known as pkyankeefan! Now in Technicolour!
by Hasan Paliwala on Dec 8, 2011 2:04 AM EST up reply actions
Lol
That’s the issue, then. You think Gardner’s defense is not something which is worth that much. Or you think other GMs won’t pay for it. Maybe that’s true. If the market doesn’t recognize something right now, doesn’t mean your valuation is necessarily wrong. It means you trade with someone who values it correctly, or continue using it.
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by Hasan Paliwala on Dec 8, 2011 1:42 AM EST up reply actions
well i consider someones trade value based off what these MLB teams would give for them. Not what two kids typing on the internet would give.
LOL
Ahahahahahahahahaha. Wow
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Dec 8, 2011 1:50 AM EST up reply actions
I laughed, too
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by Frank Campagnola on Dec 8, 2011 1:51 AM EST up reply actions
When all else fails, act sanctimonious.
Jesus Montero fangirl
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Dec 8, 2011 1:51 AM EST up reply actions
You look at GMs who understand that value
If they don’t, you keep the asset. You don’t HAVE to sell him, right?
Would you go to try trade Brett Gardner to Nick Sabean or Billy Beane?
The idiot formerly known as pkyankeefan! Now in Technicolour!
by Hasan Paliwala on Dec 8, 2011 1:51 AM EST up reply actions
But not every team
Again, I think Gardner’s defense is undervalued by most teams. You don’t. That’s the issue, then. Not trade value, which is simply derived from their production value.
Like, say, who would the Rays take?
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by Hasan Paliwala on Dec 8, 2011 1:54 AM EST up reply actions
like i said there are teams that would have more of a decision to make...
i think the rays would take cano and make up for his money in other areas but obviously some teams have more of a decision. Bottom line this discussion started with if u went and traded these guys who would bring back the greatest return in MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL. i think cano would bring back more than gardner. if you disagree with that ok, but i think it’s pretty obvious and indisputable.
i think the rays would take cano and make up for his money in other areas
HAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Dec 8, 2011 2:02 AM EST up reply actions
You're talking purely prospects
Which is disingenuous. You should also look at the possibility of them bringing back major league talent.
Cano brings back someone who is getting paid a lot. Gardner brings back someone who is cheap. This is assuming you’re trading like for like. Cano might bring back a better player, but if he’s getting paid a lot too, then how did you improve your team’s allocation of resources? Not your team, your team’s allocation of resources.
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by Hasan Paliwala on Dec 8, 2011 2:03 AM EST up reply actions
i value defense, i mean who doesn't? but no i dont value it as much as i value a players offensive ability.
a majority of these GM’s decisions support what I believe. Are we right i dont know, but i think we are. it’s not like im offering some wild concepts here.
I'll try a silly example
Suppose you call the Angels and ask if they’d like Robinson Cano. Then you call and ask if they’d like Robinson Cano and $10 mn. The $10 mn is extra value.
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by Hasan Paliwala on Dec 8, 2011 2:18 AM EST up reply actions
Remember, you're getting the once in a generation talent in both cases
Why do you get different offers?
That’s the case with Gardner. You’re getting an outfielder who provides a lot of production for damn near free. If Gardner was being paid the same as Cano, trust me, no one would be making this argument.
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by Hasan Paliwala on Dec 8, 2011 2:21 AM EST up reply actions
Seems as good a reason as any
Better than “We’re the Yankees” even
by waw on Dec 8, 2011 2:07 AM EST up reply actions
I like this reasoning too
Make it happen.
The idiot formerly known as pkyankeefan! Now in Technicolour!
by Hasan Paliwala on Dec 8, 2011 2:08 AM EST up reply actions
I risk having credibility when I use valuable research to illustrate my points?
Right.
Contributing writer for Pinstripe Alley.
Follow me on Twitter @frankiecamp48
by Frank Campagnola on Dec 8, 2011 1:20 AM EST up reply actions
Haha, sorry Frankie
You no smart.
The idiot formerly known as pkyankeefan! Now in Technicolour!
by Hasan Paliwala on Dec 8, 2011 1:21 AM EST up reply actions
Do you understand now why I BOLDED my profanity?
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Dec 8, 2011 1:21 AM EST up reply actions
Of course I do.
Contributing writer for Pinstripe Alley.
Follow me on Twitter @frankiecamp48
by Frank Campagnola on Dec 8, 2011 1:22 AM EST up reply actions
He's. Not. Listening.
Either intentionally or un-intentionally, he just doesn’t grasp anything you, I, or anyone else is saying.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Dec 8, 2011 1:23 AM EST up reply actions
I understood it from the beginning, lol
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by Frank Campagnola on Dec 8, 2011 1:22 AM EST up reply actions
im talking trade value...do u understand that?
and if teams would trade more for cano than gardner, doesnt that make his trade value higher??
Except they wouldn't trade ANYTHING for Cano
Because they wouldn’t be able to afford to keep him and they would have given up their best prospects, which Cano is worth, for a rental.
Any GM that does this would be FIRED.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Dec 8, 2011 1:31 AM EST up reply actions
Or SHOULD be fired
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Dec 8, 2011 1:32 AM EST up reply actions
So if your the Angels and have equal holes at 2b and OF and had the option right now that would drive you to choose Gardner over Cano? someone say it clearly that ull choose gardner in that scenario(which makes it equal) over Cano than we can stop talking but u guys cant answer it
Listen, even though I know how you'll respond, I'll answer
Lets keep in mind, for a second, that you think Cano is the best 2B in the majors, and I think Gardner is the best defensive OF in baseball.
I would choose Gardner Why? BECAUSE IF I HAVE A PRESSING NEED FOR BOTH A CF AND A 2B, I CHOOSE THE SLIGHTLY LESS BETTER OPTION BECAUSE I. CAN. KEEP. HIM. LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONGER. Cano is GONE after 2 years, whereas I can sign Gardner for a lot longer. You do not build a team around one goddamn player, and Gardner comes cheaper, which allows me extra money to find a decent enough second baseman instead of solely relying on THE BEST SECOND BASEMAN IN THE MAJORS.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Dec 8, 2011 1:39 AM EST up reply actions
He lost that credibility when he admitted he loved the Catwoman movie
Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.
by YankeesJets on Dec 8, 2011 1:41 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Hey, that ticket was free!
And who knew that having Cat-powers gives you mad cross-over skills in BBall
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Dec 8, 2011 1:43 AM EST up reply actions
And i thought it was the shoes
Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.
Who would you rather have in fantasy baseball?
Isnt that what this is really about?
Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.
.....you can't be serious
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Dec 8, 2011 1:42 AM EST up reply actions
Scrappy underdogs they be!
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Dec 8, 2011 1:25 AM EST up reply actions
When you say twice as good
That’s twice as much surplus value. So getting a cheap SP who can pitch 200 innings with league average ERA. It doesn’t have to be the best players, it has to be the greatest difference between what they’re paid and what they give you.
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by Hasan Paliwala on Dec 8, 2011 1:09 AM EST up reply actions
Thank you.
Contributing writer for Pinstripe Alley.
Follow me on Twitter @frankiecamp48
by Frank Campagnola on Dec 8, 2011 1:10 AM EST up reply actions
But also, what you get paid compared to your production.
Robinson Cano’s surplus value doesn’t come close to Brett Gardner’s.
Contributing writer for Pinstripe Alley.
Follow me on Twitter @frankiecamp48
by Frank Campagnola on Dec 8, 2011 1:11 AM EST up reply actions
And if you wouldn’t give up elite prospects for either player, what are you arguing then?
Contributing writer for Pinstripe Alley.
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by Frank Campagnola on Dec 8, 2011 12:54 AM EST up reply actions
That makes no sense for the Yankees.
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by Frank Campagnola on Dec 8, 2011 12:53 AM EST up reply actions
At the very least, someone who is cheap
I’ll answer a different question: what would Cano bring back in a trade? Say he’d bring in an elite starter. That elite starter would be being paid just a little under market value (say $15 mn) and be signed for 1 or 2 years at max. Then, if you want to keep that starter, you pay him the $23 mn or so he wants.
Makes sense? Getting good production for cheaper >>>>> Getting great production at market rate, at least from a value standpoint.
The idiot formerly known as pkyankeefan! Now in Technicolour!
by Hasan Paliwala on Dec 8, 2011 12:50 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I think the Yankees could bring back a high upside, lower level minor leaguer and a prospect like Ivan Nova. There could potentially be filler prospects, like a utility infielder type of prospect.
The problem is that Gardner’s skill set is highly underrated. That doesn’t make him any less valuable, however.
Contributing writer for Pinstripe Alley.
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by Frank Campagnola on Dec 8, 2011 1:04 AM EST up reply actions
Holy contradiction, Batman...
im not saying best prospects. why would anyone trade best prospects(or 2 of em since its double) for BRETT GARDNER
You’re not saying best prospects, yet are asking me exactly the same question without STILL answering mine.
However, to humor your idiotic delusions, depending on the prospects a team might need a CF, and Gardner is the clear choice. He is the best defensive outfielder in all of baseball, he gets on base A LOT, he’s incredibly fast, and, and I cannot stress this enough, HE’S FUCKING CHEAP! A team would be able to keep him because since he’s not a super power hitter like Cano, stressing this point again, THEY CAN AFFORD TO ACTUALLY FUCKING KEEP HIM FOR A DECENT AMOUNT OF TIME. AFTER THE FUCKING TRADE IS MADE, THEY. CAN. RE. FUCKING. SIGN. HIM. No one except the super elite McDuck Money Bin teams are going to be able to fucking afford Cano in 2 years because he is THE BEST SECOND BASEMAN OF ALL TIME.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Dec 8, 2011 12:53 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Brett Gardner:
- 120 wRC+ in 2010
- 103 wRC+ in 2011
- Regarded as the best defensive player in baseball
- Three more seasons of cost controlled production
Contributing writer for Pinstripe Alley.
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by Frank Campagnola on Dec 8, 2011 12:44 AM EST up reply actions
Naw, dude
MVP votes. Brett Gardner didn’t get ANY. And how can he be the best defensive outfielder in baseball if he can’t even win a Gold Glove?!
by Branta on Dec 8, 2011 1:45 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Rec'ing both for the "Naw"
I love that word.
The idiot formerly known as pkyankeefan! Now in Technicolour!
by Hasan Paliwala on Dec 8, 2011 1:52 AM EST up reply actions
For the record, Alex Rodriguez was traded to the Yankees (coming off averaging 9 WAR in his tenure with the Rangers) along with $67MM for Alfonso Soriano (coming off averaging 3.6 WAR in his full seasons with the Yankees) and a PTBNL (Joaquin Arias).
Talent alone, the Yankees killed the Rangers in this deal. But the money was an enormous factor.
Contributing writer for Pinstripe Alley.
Follow me on Twitter @frankiecamp48
by Frank Campagnola on Dec 8, 2011 12:35 AM EST up reply actions
I don't mean this sarcastically,
but I’m just curious if you could also give the breakdown on the comparison between Evan Longoria and Brett Gardner. Longoria had a great WAR and has an extremely team friendly deal and is obviously crazy talented. I’m just curious if you ran those #‘s who would have the higher trade value. If it’s Longoria I bet it’s close. But it wouldn’t shock me if your #‘s spit out that Gardner has the more trade value. I’m just curious how off that would be because Longoria is(in the real world) about 10x the value.
Longoria has (arguably) the most trade value in all of baseball.
I’m pretty sure Frank actually wrote an article about him being the player he would start a franchise with a few weeks ago.
I chose Troy Tulowitzki, but I ignored contracts when I wrote that piece. If I were to include contracts, Evan Longoria would absolutely be my choice.
Contributing writer for Pinstripe Alley.
Follow me on Twitter @frankiecamp48
by Frank Campagnola on Dec 8, 2011 12:32 AM EST up reply actions
Being extremely conservative (meaning I’m dropping his WAR total by .5 every season despite that he hasn’t even hit his prime yet), Longo’s trade value is $115MM. That’s basically requiring three Jesus Monteros and a Manny Banuelos to acquire him.
If I give him an average of 7 WAR per year, which doesn’t seem out of the question at all, and is also probably pretty conservative since he has two seasons of 7.6 WAR, his trade value becomes $124MM.
If I give him 7.6 WAR per year (which is his career high for single season WAR), his trade value becomes $137.5MM.
Basically, Longoria is extremely talented, young, and comes on the cheap. That’s why he has so much trade value.
Contributing writer for Pinstripe Alley.
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by Frank Campagnola on Dec 8, 2011 12:41 AM EST up reply actions
On the conservative side, more than double Gardner’s trade value. On the aggressive side, nearly triple.
Contributing writer for Pinstripe Alley.
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by Frank Campagnola on Dec 8, 2011 12:47 AM EST up reply actions
Similar, yes.
Contributing writer for Pinstripe Alley.
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by Frank Campagnola on Dec 8, 2011 12:50 AM EST up reply actions
through that logic im curious how close it is
If Gardner is twice as much as Cano than Longo should be 50x Gardy
There's already a post about that posting
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Dec 8, 2011 1:59 AM EST up reply actions
Yu is the new president of China?
The idiot formerly known as pkyankeefan! Now in Technicolour!
by Hasan Paliwala on Dec 8, 2011 1:59 AM EST up reply actions
I say Fanshot this
I’m at work so can’t watch it just now. But I’ll check it out for sure.
The idiot formerly known as pkyankeefan! Now in Technicolour!
by Hasan Paliwala on Dec 8, 2011 2:39 AM EST up reply actions
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