New York Yankees News and Notes
by 3460kuri on Dec 30, 2011 6:01 AM EST
in New York Yankees News
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- River Avenue Blues has a bold suggestion that actually isn't that bold - trying Joba Chamberlain as a starter again. This is out of desperation, more than anything else:
Joba Chamberlain at his peak is the number 2 starter the Yankees are searching for. In an offseason where the Yankees have chosen not to throw money at big money targets like C.J. Wilson and Mark Buehrle, or even one year deals for the likes of Hiroki Kuroda or Roy Oswalt, Chamberlain lays in the weeds as a cost-controlled option already on the books. A lottery ticket sitting in the Yankees’ wallet that doesn’t even require a trip to the store. If the 2008 version of Joba the Starter turns up, he’s an improvement over every non-Sabathia member of the current rotation. If 2009 Joba turns up, he still may be an improvement over back-end question marks like Phil Hughes, Burnett and an even older Freddy Garcia.
- The Yankee Analysts disagrees, however, and thinks Brian Cashman should kick the tires on Joba's trade market:
(B)y the time he is fully recovered from his Tommy John Surgery, Joba will still be a 26-year-old power arm with experience as a starter. Last time I checked, the Yankees weren’t the only team in need of starting pitching help, and Joba is dangerously close to becoming an afterthought in the Yankee organization for the reasons mentioned above, so why not try to stir up some interest around baseball and see if there’s a market for him?
I'm not sure what I think. Joba is in something of a no-man's land right now, as the Yankees already have plenty of good relievers and don't need a "6th inning" guy, along with a handful of major-league ready starters in AAA like Hector Noesi and Adam Warren to back up the guys currently slotted for the five rotation spots. I hate to say this, but he's almost in the same territory that Ian Kennedy was prior to 2010.
I've been saying for almost 2 years that Joba doesn't need to be an ace as a starter, he just needs to not suck horribly. If the Yankees are willing to gamble on 30-something reclamation projects like Bartolo Colon and Freddy Garcia (twice, no less), I have a hard time understanding why they can't do the same for a 26 year old who can still light up the radar gun. What do you think?
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I'd trade him
The biggest problem I see with him being tried again as a started is his mentality seems to change. When he’s a 1 inning reliever he throws without concern for holding anything back, hence he gets up to 96-98 consistently. When he starts he tends to be around 94-95 on his pitches, sometimes he get up to 96 but it’s never consistently. However a pitch that is unhittable at 96-98 is very hittable at 94-95.
The other thing that makes me a bit wary on this idea is the time and effort it’s going to take to make him a starter. It’s going to take time to build up Joba’s arm strength. The question the Yankees need to ask themselves here, and the question I asked myself if I was in that situation, is, is the reward worth the possible risk? There is a small sample size that the Yankees have to work with, to me it’s not worth the risk. If the only two choices are trade him or make him a starter, I’d have to trade him.
I think you’re missing the point.
The Yankees rotation isn’t some theoretical thing that exists as an idea. They have five starter pitchers right now, and four of them are mired in uncertainty.
In that kind of environment, ANY help will do. If Joba Chamberlain can find a way to give them 5 or 6 innings a start at a league-average ERA, kind of like he did in 2009, he will help the team in 2012. He won’t be an ace, and he certainly won’t be living up to the hype, but that kind of mediocre performance will help the team.
That’s all that matters here.
Jesus Montero has to be a full-time catcher, or the Yankees have to trade him. One or the other. Based on the age and contracts of the other players on this team, that's the only place he fits long-term on the Yankees roster.
I think he might be better than that if given the chance and he can stay healthy
regardless of the uncertainty, I, and I imagine Cashman, believe that between Nova, AJ, Hughes, Garcia, Noesi, Phelps, Warren and whatever other pitchers we might bring it, we will have 4 starters that can give us good value. In the small chance that Joba is added to that list, I think we can confidently say that someone will work out.
The only problem with that
Is that 5 or 6 innings will put the pen under an intense amount of stress, especially when the only horse on the pitching staff is Sabathia. I wasn’t missing the point, the rotation needs help, and any help will do, but will the Yankees be better served giving a guy in AAA a shot to make the rotation, giving Joba another shot at starting, or trading for a starting pitcher if one can be found?
Joba has issues when he starts, that’s been proven. While the game isn’t played in a vacuum the fact that his mentality changes when he starts scares me with him. Leading into that, I don’t trust him when he starts specifically because his mentality changes, as it stands right now I don’t trust him out of the pen either. I’d still keep him on and see how the surgery has affected his effectiveness, but if I’m putting myself in the position of GM or Manager of the Yankees I’m going to look for a way to use him to the best of his abilities, if that’s the pen so be it, if he can be stretched out great, but I’m not holding my breath and I’m entertaining trade offers.
by IDCWhoYouLike on Dec 30, 2011 11:51 AM EST up reply actions
The main point is that Joba has major league experience as a reasonably decent starter, something Noesi, Warren, Betances, and Banuelos don’t. He also has upside, something that Freddy Garcia and AJ Burnett don’t.
So 5 innings of 4.50 xFIP baseball is perfect.
Jesus Montero has to be a full-time catcher, or the Yankees have to trade him. One or the other. Based on the age and contracts of the other players on this team, that's the only place he fits long-term on the Yankees roster.
Major league experience is a plus, but shouldn’t be the deciding factor. If Noesi, Warren, Betances and Banuelos are better pitchers then roll with them, if not then try out Joba. My reasoning for not using him in the starter roll remains the same. Joba as he stands right now scares me. Given the options, I’d look for a trade. To me, and maybe you think I’m crazy for this, but major league experience just doesn’t mean as much. Does it help, yeah it does, but if I’m looking at a 4 or 5 in my rotation I’m not going to let experience or lack there of influence my decision.
by IDCWhoYouLike on Dec 30, 2011 1:10 PM EST up reply actions
You do realize that only six pitchers had an average fastball velocity higher than 94 last year
And only two (Verlander and Ogando) averaged 95 mph. I am pretty sure Joba could survive at 94. In 2009, Joba’s average fastball dropped to 92.5, which would put him in the top 30 in 2011.
The fact is, Joba in 2009 was an average starter, perfectly acceptable for a number 3/4 in a rotation. In his first full (and only) season as a starter, he had a 4.50 xFIP, 1.9 fWAR season. His K-rate went down and his BB-rate and HR-rate went up, but one could expect to see improvement had he continued in the starting rotation. Instead, he was dropped for Phil Hughes, who put up a fairly similar performance: 4.13 xFIP, 2.6 fWAR.
Unfortunately, Joba got hurt, and will have to come back and prove himself. I say let him rehab in AAA as a starter, see how he does, and if he does well he can be a mid-season replacement for whoever sucks more between Freddy, AJ, or Phil. If not, put him back in the pen for good, or try to trade him.
by cookiedabookie on Dec 30, 2011 11:53 AM EST up reply actions
velocity has nothing to do with pitching well
its how you use your velocity that makes good pitchers. a 92 MPH fastball can miss bats so long as the pitcher knows how to throw it, where to throw it and when to throw it. Phil Hughes’ troubles weren’t his velocity, it was his inability to adapt to a slower fastball. Same with Joba, when his velocity dipped he was still pitching like he had a 95 MPH fastball and when you don’t its going to get hit.
I somewhat agree
I was just pointing out the inaccurate statement that Joba would be a 94-95 as a starter.
But velocity is pretty well correlated with success. The top fifteen in fastball velocity last year:
Alexi Ogando
Justin Verlander
Edwin Jackson
David Price
Michael Pineda
Derek Holland
CC Sabathia
Ubaldo Jimenez
Matt Garza
Brandon Morrow
Felix Hernandez
Jordan Zimmermann
Clayton Kershaw
Daniel Hudson
Justin Masterson
This isn’t necessarily the fifteen best pitchers, but there is some significant overlap, along with some young, high-upside guys that very well could be top fifteen pitchers in the next few years.
by cookiedabookie on Dec 30, 2011 1:46 PM EST up reply actions
oh absolutely
but velocity is not what makes them good, its knowing how to use it. Its more location and stuff. Anyone can hit a straight 95 MPH fastball down the middle. Movement is key. My point was that just because you lose velocity doesn’t mean you automatically suck. If you lose velocity you need to adapt in how you use your velocity. A lot of older power pitchers have to make this adjustment throughout their career.
Farnsworth threw at 96+ consistently
Didn’t work out so well for him. It’s not the speed itself that makes me worry, but his fastball at 96+ is much more hittable at 94-95, and even more hittable at 92-93.
by IDCWhoYouLike on Dec 30, 2011 1:12 PM EST up reply actions
give him a shot in the rotation
That’s where he can have most value for them, because at this point he would be the 6th inning guy (if such a designation even exists). I honestly believe he can be good enough to start long term
by Arkansas Yankee on Dec 30, 2011 7:31 AM EST via iPhone app reply actions
and
he has the most value to others that way too. 6th inning relievers are not exactly a rare earth element.
The above comment is not affiliated with the San Francisco Giants, is not based on a secret source of team information, and may contain personal opinion.
"I'll never forget San Francisco and all those beautiful moments."- Andres Torres
by natteringnabob on Dec 30, 2011 9:51 AM EST up reply actions
Joba to Teh Rotation!!
I missed this argument haha. When Joba rehabs he should be treated as a starter. We have a full bullpen with the options we have and the young pitchers coming up who could slide into the pen for their first year. Lets stretch Joba back into a starter and hopefully he’ll be able to help out this year. Either he succeeds in the rotation or he replenishes his trade value as a starter and we could put him in a package for someone useful. This is all dependent on whether or not they think his shoulder can handle starting, of course.
Loyalty runs both ways
Yankees owe it to Joba to give him a shot to get healthy and to re-build his career.
Now if that takes all of 2012 and Roberteson becomes closer in 2013 then Joba is a great 8th inning guy.
So nurse him along, get his confidence back and turn him loose in the 8th inning.
Bring lawyers, guns and money to get me out of this one! Stand in the Fire.
Keep him
He will be fine, and you wont get the most out of him in a trade if he is currently injured. zzzzzzzzzz
They aren't allowed to trade him while he's hurt
But they won’t get a lot for him if they trade him when he comes back if thats what you meant.
I'll do whatever it takes to win games, whether it's sitting on a bench waving a towel, handing a cup of water to a teammate, or hitting the game-winning shot.- Kobe Bryant
A.J. Burnett's only fan!
Three things come to mind when I see that picture:
Why isn’t he shaved?
He looks a lot heavier than in the picture in the River Ave link.
I remember YES showing him in the dugout for what I’m pretty sure was the first time slapping hands and hugging guys and he looked like he was treating his arm very carelessly.
by MichaelGGBGrabow on Dec 30, 2011 8:30 AM EST reply actions
Keep him...for now
Here’s the problem: The Yanks have no earthly idea what most of these guys are going to bring to the table next year. You need Joba as the fallback option should anything go haywire.
We don’t know what we’ll get from Burnett. We don’t know what we’ll get from Hughes. We don’t know if Garcia can pull of another year of smoke and mirrors. We don’t know if Noesi can manage to pitch a full MLB season and be effective. I agree…the Yanks have lots of options on the table…but NONE of them is sure fire (and I’m not saying Joba is).
With that many moving parts….unless he’s part of a package for a sure fire #2/#1 starter (like King Felix)…you hold him. Others might need pitching…but the Yanks don’t need position players right now…they need pitching. And it’s hard to see many options where Joba goes to a team (unless it’s rebuilding or mid-season) where his return actually satisfies a Yanks need (front line starting pitching).
the only thing I like about the Joba-to-the-pen/Joba-to-the-rotation argument
is re-living the Francesca “ANDY PETTITTE IS A STAHTING PITCAH!!” meltdown. Other than that, the whole thing makes me sad. We had Joba ready to start contributing as a middle-of-the-rotation guy after 2009, and wound up with a good middle reliever.
by long time listener on Dec 30, 2011 9:25 AM EST reply actions
Whenever he gets around to throwing a pitch, I would start him in AAA
But with obvious pitch limits and monitoring his innings to start with. Whenever he shows up he’s essentially still on rehab. If/when he is ready, then the team can call him up into whichever role is a greater team need. Working Joba as a starter preserves your flexibility in that regard.
An interesting question is asked in that article
About how to separate medical procedure from performance enhancing drugs. To me, a PED is something taken somewhat regularly for no reason other than to enhance performance. If a player has surgery, or a significant injury, and a doctor thinks limited use of HGH will help the injury heal, to me that is perfectly acceptable.
by cookiedabookie on Dec 30, 2011 12:04 PM EST up reply actions
PEDs are artificial
Arod is having a procedure where his body is being used to heal itself. He’s not taking out a needle and injecting himself to become stronger.
And yet
When a cyclist injects himself with his own blood, it’s illegal and classified as a PED.
I think if a substance is to be classified as a PED, then it would mean that the drug is used specifically to increase your performance, nothing more. A-Rod is trying to recover from a knee injury, which I think are two totally different things.
I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious.
Vince Lombardi
I did not know that!
I agree, healing and enhancing are two completely separate things. I suppose its more of what is an unfair substance in the eyes of the MLB or the NBA or wherever, rather than a universal definition.
"healing and enhancing are two completely separate things"
Exactly what I am saying. It seemed like this article was trying to cast doubt on that position.
by cookiedabookie on Dec 30, 2011 1:47 PM EST up reply actions
Huge difference there
Cyclists inject themselves with their own, oxygen-enhanced blood, to replenish themselves in the midst of grueling multi-day races. A-Rod is doing it during the offseason to recover from an injury, not during the season, in the middle of a double-header. It’s a completely different situation. This same procedure for a cyclist, if done outside of a race, would not be commented on by the race officials.
Violate the spirit of sports....??
For something to make the banned list, Wadler said, it must fulfill three criteria:
• The capacity to enhance performance
• Use can result in negative health consequences
• Violate the spirit of sports.
by MichaelGGBGrabow on Dec 30, 2011 12:45 PM EST up reply actions
the spirit of sports? how do you even quantify that?
is that how tobacco is still allowed? they did it in 1890 so they can do it now?
I can think of a lot of things that fulfill at least two of these criteria
stealing signs, for example. It could also fulfill the third if there were retaliation.
He's not a starter anymore
I’d love to try him out in the rotation again, but unless Cashman changes his mind he’s never going to start again. Not for this team anyway. And if that stays true, then are they really going to get that much value in a trade from a middle reliever coming off Tommy John Surgery?
I would make him a starter, but I’d rather keep him than deal him regardless of his role. Because I don’t see how they’d get a lot of value back for him at this point. They should have pulled the trigger on the Dan Haren deal that had Joba as the centerpiece.
I'll do whatever it takes to win games, whether it's sitting on a bench waving a towel, handing a cup of water to a teammate, or hitting the game-winning shot.- Kobe Bryant
A.J. Burnett's only fan!
Making him a starter...again
Wouldn’t that just be more “dicking him around”? He’s a reliever, let him be.
Romine!
If those are the two options, try him as a starter.
At this point, he’s nothing more than a good middle reliever coming back from a major surgery. Good luck getting top dollar for that. Silly idea.
What could be better than Dan Johnson
hitting .108
Let's trade Reddick for Heyward!
by QW on Sep 28, 2011 9:47 PM CDT
by SandalsNoPants on Dec 30, 2011 12:02 PM EST reply actions
Joba
I still do not think that Joba can maintain his effort long enough to be a worthwhile starter. Let one or even 2 of the youngsters start and keep Joba in the bullpen. I realize that if he was going to be reconverted into a starter, the time would be now before he starts his retraining. Temperamentally, I think that he is enough like Jonathan Papelbon that he needs to adrenaline rush of a clutch situation to pitch his best. Viewed from the other side, if I had no closer and the Yanks were willing to sell at a discount, I would take Joba and try that. As a Yankee, he would be insurance in case any of the established relievers has an injury.
I want Joba as a starter
He was very good in 2008 in his limited time before injuries kicked in. BUT i highly doubt he is given his history of arm injuries.
i dont know if joba can be a succeful starter
but its the perfect opportunity to try. if robertson was having TJ surgery I would suggest the same thing
Hideki Matsui: "Kick ass. Pop champagne. And get some ho's."
Gift basket of signed baseballs?
"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth
In it, there was a signed baseball, an autographed photo of Jeter, a Yankees teddy bear, a magnet, and a copy of "Derek Jeter’s All-Star Manual: 10 Life Lessons
My God. I hope he doesn’t get the wrong idea with this gift basket…
Baseball Statistics and Acronyms Explained
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by Lord Duggan on Dec 30, 2011 1:30 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
so to recap
Jeter has a “Sorry You Got Stabbed” basket and a “Thanks for Letting Me ‘Stab’” basket.
by long time listener on Dec 30, 2011 1:33 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
That ribbon kind of looks like a cross if you tilt your head sideways a little bit.
This should be removed because I am offended.
Joba as starter
It seems that Cashman has made the decision NOT to sign an “OUTSIDE” starter. If this is true, then you have to look inside your organization. Joba has to prove he’s healthy. He also needs 3 quality pitches than he can throw successfully for strikes. If he can come anywhere near that then he is a better choice than Garcia and maybe Colon. I don’t think that those questions can be answered until spring training at the least.
Spring training is not to late to sign someone like Kuroda or Oswalt. I don’t see teams knocking down their door with offers.
by Robert Essigman on Dec 30, 2011 7:25 PM EST reply actions
I doubt they'll last until spring training
If they do, the Yankees should probably swoop in and get them.
by long time listener on Dec 31, 2011 4:17 PM EST up reply actions
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