How The Prospect Debate Impacts (And Potentially Ruins) The 2013 Season
On Wednesday, I talked about how we've come to value prospects much too highly, especially the Yankees big three of Jesus Montero, Dellin Betances, and Manny Banuelos (you can re-read the debate here). My point was that most prospects fail to meet expectations, so while it makes sense to try graduating some of them to the big leagues, refusing to trade any of them for established, cost-controlled young players is foolish.
One factor I didn't consider, however, is the opportunity cost associated with trading them now, and that may weigh more heavily in the decision-making process in the minds of fans at least. Let's Talk About Tex hit the nail on the head:
The value of a prospect isn’t limited to what he produces on the field. So in addition to weighing the cost of acquiring a player vs. the projected success of the prospect(s) you’re giving up, you also have to weigh the available player against other players who might become available in the not-too-distant future
This is kind of like buying your wife's Christmas gift in July, only to see it for half the price on Black Friday. Nobody wants that kind of buyer's remorse, especially since you can't make returns in baseball, so you wait until the best deal presents itself. You can't wait forever, though, because eventually Christmas will come and you'll need something to give her, just like the Yankees will eventually start playing real games again, preferably with another living, breathing quality pitcher on their roster.
I see two problems here (there are actually three, but we already talked about how we're overvaluing prospects). The first is improperly valuing the pitchers the Yankees have already decided not to trade for, and the second is the slim likelihood that anybody better is going to be both available and attainable any time soon.
Between Dan Haren, Zach Greinke, Trever Cahill, Mat Latos, Gio Gonzalez, and Ubaldo Jimenez, who I forgot about on Wednesday, I think the consensus is that only Haren is a true #2 starter; therefore, none of the others were worth parting with Montero, Betances, or Banuelos (edit: maybe Zach Greinke is a #2, but he "can't pitch in New York"). But really, what is a #2 starter? Does this pitcher actually exist?
I would suggest that he only exists relative to the other pitchers currently on the team. We know that A.J. Burnett, Ivan Nova, and Phil Hughes all bring significant question marks with them into 2012, which is to say nothing of 2013 and beyond, so none of them are #2s right now. Logically, if the Yankees could acquire someone who hasn't posted an ERA over 5.00 the past two seasons, isn't coming off of an unexpected rookie season, hasn't struggled with injuries for most of his young career, and isn't named Freddy Garcia, one would reason that this new pitcher would become their de facto #2, and if he's under contract for a few seasons, even better.
Is there an actual major leaguer who fits this description, somebody that is better than Haren and the rest of the bunch, and more importantly, might be available for trade sometime soon? In a word, no. I doubt the Yankees will have much luck prying Cliff Lee or Roy Halladay from the Phillies, Justin Verlander from the Tigers, Clayton Kershaw from the Dodgers, Jered Weaver from the Angels, Jon Lester from the Red Sox, or Chris Carpenter from the Cardinals.
That leaves them a handful of options for improving the rotation - praying that the Mariners or Giants try to trade Felix Hernandez or Tim Lincecum, ponying up the dough to sign a premier free agent in 2012 or 2013, continuing to play the scrap heap lottery, and hoping that the young arms pan out. However, this approach leaves us with more questions than answers.
Are the Yankees willing to give up Montero, either Banuelos or Betances, and a B prospect or two just to pay Lincecum $35 million over the next two seasons? How should they respond if King Felix tries to leverage his partial no-trade clause to negotiate a contract extension through 2022? Can they beat out the Phillies when Cole Hamels hits free agency next year, or would they prefer pay Matt Cain $20 million a season?
To complicate matters, any of these deals would require them to break their self-imposed $189 million salary cap in 2014, and if they're unwilling to do that, their options narrow even further to searching the scrap heap each and every offseason to find pitchers who can defy expectations and give them 200-300 average innings, or hoping that they can turn a couple of their low-ceiling AAA prospects and higher-ceiling AA prospects into productive major league starting pitchers by 2013/14, all while hoping CC Sabathia doesn't get hurt and some pitcher they already have can consistently give them 200 league-average innings.
Yikes.
Compared to these options, parting with some prospects to have Dan Haren, Gio Gonzalez, Ubaldo Jimenez, Trever Cahill, Zach Greinke, or Mat Latos around for a few seasons at reasonable salaries sounds like the easiest decision I've ever made in my life.
I tell myself that I'm missing something, that Brian Cashman and the Yankees' front office have information that I don't, because absent that, none of this makes any sense. The Yankees do still want to win, and with the failures of Phil Hughes, Joba Chamberlain, and Ian Kennedy in pinstripes still fresh in everyone's memory, I wouldn't expect the front office to allow a trio of prospects to make or break them over the next five years. Nevertheless, the logic behind taking a pass on six, talented, cost-controlled pitchers in the past 18 months still seems fuzzy at best and moronic at worst. Let's hope the Yankees brass knows something we don't.
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Grienke is a #1 lol
Other than that, there’s good points made here.
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by Cory Braiterman on Dec 30, 2011 1:14 PM EST reply actions
I’d say Latos is a number 2 as well, and borderline ace.
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by Frank Campagnola on Dec 30, 2011 1:22 PM EST up reply actions
Not sure how you split pitchers
I see it as “Ace”, #1, #2, #3-4. #4-5. So Latos is probably in the number one group at the back end, but not a borderline ace – although he has that potential.
by cookiedabookie on Dec 30, 2011 2:02 PM EST up reply actions
what is a #1?
to me a #1 is just the best pitcher a team has and he sits on top of the depth chart. It doesn’t make him an Ace™, just the best they’ve got. Luke Hochevar is the Royals #1 and he sucks.
Subjectively, each team has a number one
Objectively, if you want to use that as a number, than the top thirty pitchers (i.e. one per team, even if they are not equally distributed) could be considered number ones. Other people have only 5 Aces, 15-20 number ones, etc. I was just pointing out the subjectivity of the terminology describing pitchers.
by cookiedabookie on Dec 30, 2011 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
I think of it this way. As a "number one, would you be comfortable starting (insert pitcher here) against another playoff team’s first starter?
So, in essence, would you be comfortable matching CC Sabathia up against anyone? For me, yes. He’s a number 1, or an ace, so to speak.
For a guy like Dan Haren, I don’t have him in the top echelon of pitchers, but I’d be comfortable starting him against a playoff team’s number two.
From there, etc, etc, etc.
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by Frank Campagnola on Dec 30, 2011 2:50 PM EST up reply actions
If that’s how you do it I wouldn’t consider Latos a #1. Wouldn’t put him up against CC.
It’s extremely close and can go either way, though.
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by Brandon C. on Dec 30, 2011 5:25 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
IMO there are top, mid, and bottom of the rotation starters.
All this #1, #2 stuff is completely arbitrary and in any argument you just end up splitting hairs.
I agree
Though I think there is also an Ace™ (CC, Halladay, Felix, Kershaw type), however, there is no such thing as a #2, that’s just make up by teams who either have two top of the rotation guys or are too insecure about the rotation they have (Yankee Fans)
I think there’s logic in differentiating between the top mid and low, but numbers are silly, yes
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by Brandon C. on Dec 30, 2011 6:18 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Latos’ numbers compare very favorably to other “aces.” Dave Cameron compared Latos to others in his article about the Reds finally getting their ace.
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by Frank Campagnola on Dec 30, 2011 6:44 PM EST up reply actions
I think he's right on the edge
if he puts together another good season then i’d consider him an ace. He’s already had shoulder problems and had one great year and one good year. We need to see a little more, but I think he will be great.
I said borderline in my original comment about him
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by Frank Campagnola on Dec 30, 2011 7:57 PM EST up reply actions
Some of Haren's and CC's ratios are nearly identical.
ERA, FIP, K/9.
Haren has a major advantage in BB/9, though, while CC gives up a few less HR.
Given Haren’s career mark of 4.04 K/BB to CC’s 2.76, I might even give Haren the edge here.
At the very worst case scenario for Haren, they’re equal.
What could be better than Dan Johnson
hitting .108
Let's trade Reddick for Heyward!
by QW on Sep 28, 2011 9:47 PM CDT
by SandalsNoPants on Dec 30, 2011 6:10 PM EST up reply actions
Narrative!
CC’s career postseason ERA is 4.81. Choker!
Verlander’s career postseason ERA is 5.57. Brilliant!
Haren's is 3.26.
What could be better than Dan Johnson
hitting .108
Let's trade Reddick for Heyward!
by QW on Sep 28, 2011 9:47 PM CDT
by SandalsNoPants on Dec 30, 2011 6:28 PM EST up reply actions
Amazing compared to CC.
What a bum.
What could be better than Dan Johnson
hitting .108
Let's trade Reddick for Heyward!
by QW on Sep 28, 2011 9:47 PM CDT
by SandalsNoPants on Dec 30, 2011 7:57 PM EST up reply actions
Obviously, there are extreme cases like the Phillies who have two aces and a borderline ace in Hamels, where this just wouldn’t work.
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by Frank Campagnola on Dec 30, 2011 2:51 PM EST up reply actions
An “ace” and a “#1” are the same to me.
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by Frank Campagnola on Dec 30, 2011 2:48 PM EST up reply actions
What would you call Luke Hochevar than?
or any team with no great pitching? Do they just not have an Ace™/#1, whatever? or would you consider their best pitcher to be their Ace, regardless of how well they are in relation to the top 30 pitchers of the league?
I’d say that the Royals are the other extreme case (like I said with the Phillies) where they have no one that’s any good so this doesn’t work.
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by Frank Campagnola on Dec 30, 2011 5:04 PM EST up reply actions
Last three years
Greinke is the 6th best SP in the Majors, according to fWAR. The top 8, who I would consider aces, over the last three years ranked by fWAR:
Roy Halladay 22.2
Justin Verlander 21.7
Cliff Lee 20.5
CC Sabathia 18.8
Felix Hernandez 18.5
Zack Greinke 18.4
Tim Lincecum 17.3
Dan Haren 16.9
by cookiedabookie on Dec 30, 2011 2:06 PM EST up reply actions
kuri probably makes the best "make you think" articles.
Sparks a lot of debate. Awesome post.
GO YANKEES, COWBOYS, AND KNICKS!
i dont like the assumption that nova and hughes have essentially no future/potential
The current plan, if absolutely no one is added (unlikely) is to have a starting five built from the following pool
CC, Hughes, Nova, Noesi, Warren, Phelps, Banuelos, Betances, and possibly Joba
We know CC is a rock in the roatation, so you need to hit on 4 out of 7 (or 8)… but we know Nova is a hit to some extent, he’s very safe to be a mid-rotation guy with a chance to be better.
I think we’ve all seen enough from Hughes to know he can pitch at the major league level if he can get healthy, we’ll know at the end of this season what we have with him. The other are all question marks.
So assume we have 2 spots full (CC, Nova) and then its 3 spots from 6 guys, 2 (Hughes and Banuelos) have high end potential, Betances “is supposed” to be mid-range. Thats a strong staff… and you have some insurance.
The X factor there is the very likely chance of the Yankees acquire someone along the way. I dont think this is such a dire circumstance.
Warren probably doesn't belong in that conversation
And Phelps is definitely back of the line.
by cookiedabookie on Dec 30, 2011 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
I think both have the potential to become solid fixtures in the back of the rotation
or they are ready enough to be useful in a trade
I think you are overrating them a bit
They would be good back of the rotation for a second division team, but not for a contender.
by cookiedabookie on Dec 30, 2011 2:40 PM EST up reply actions
Not to toot my own horn or anything
but I compared Warren and Phelps favorably to Jeff Niemann and Wade Davis of the Rays, here. While neither of them are fantastic pitchers, they are reliable 4-5 starters in the AL East and both Niemann and Davis could net the Rays something useful in a trade.
i dont like the assumption that nova and hughes have essentially no future/potential
I don’t think anybody is making that assumption.
I said that both of them bring lots of uncertainty with them into 2012. There’s a chance they might be able to provide 200 quality innings, but a chance they might not. That’s different than somebody like a Dan Haren, Trevor Cahill, etc. who is a good bet for 200 quality innings.
The Yankees problem isn’t that their pitchers don’t have potential, it’s that they’re stacking uncertainty on top of uncertainty, with very little predictibility in the mix.
Jesus Montero has to be a full-time catcher, or the Yankees have to trade him. One or the other. Based on the age and contracts of the other players on this team, that's the only place he fits long-term on the Yankees roster.
I dont think Nova is very uncertain
He’s pitched in NY for 1 and a half season pretty darn well. I realize his peripherals are worse than his ERA/record, and I do expect a little regression… but I think he’s a known commodity. He’s a good #3 in most rotations, and there’s always the chance he improves a little (he did pick up another pitch last season in his AAA stint).
I totally agree that Hughes is uncertain… and yeah, its possible all of the guys on that list could fan out, but its much more likely that at least 2 of Hughes, Betances, Banuelos, Noesi, Warren and Phelps become legitimate starting pitchers
obviously i’m an optimist. I still expect them to make some move, they have a lot of guys in the pipeline, there’s no room for all of them so I can certainly see a package with 2/3 of them and one of our catchers to get someone.
How is this offseason with Nova any different than last season with Hughes?
by Now Batting on Dec 30, 2011 3:19 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Nova had a better year in 2011 than Hughes did in 2010
And a much better finish. Nova got better as the year went on, where as in 2010 Hughes got worse after a brilliant start, pitching to an ERA over 5 in the second half.
And Hughes was penciled in as a guy the Yankees were depending on going into 2011, which is the same as Nova going into 2012.
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Nova also showed an improvement in his skills during the season, whereas Hughes showed some regression in pitch selection/velocity/effectiveness.
Obviously it's not a PERFECT comparison
But their FIPs were within .23 of each, each threw a gem in the playoffs, and both were the de facto #2 heading into the next season. No way can you call Nova a lock when Hughes went from a lock to complete uncertainty over one season.
by Now Batting on Dec 30, 2011 7:04 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Hughes started as a better pitcher and then completely sucked
When did Hughes throw a gem in the playoffs? All I remember is him sucking then too. Nova was much more solid throughout the season and never really sucked.
Against the Twins
In the 2010 ALDS to clinch it. Also pitched well in relief of Clemens in 07 against the Indians. Nova has had one good half season, and that half wasn’t as good as the one good half season Hughes had. Nova is far far far from a certainty going into this year.
by Now Batting on Dec 30, 2011 8:43 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
it was far from an entire half season.
What could be better than Dan Johnson
hitting .108
Let's trade Reddick for Heyward!
by QW on Sep 28, 2011 9:47 PM CDT
by SandalsNoPants on Dec 30, 2011 9:45 PM EST up reply actions
I've said the same thing myself
When you can get an established young pitcher like Gonzalez or Latos with team control and decent salary for several years for a few unproven prospects, why are you holding back? Makes absolutely no sense.
Ian Kennedy had 14 gms with the Yanks and you identify him as a failure.
Jeter played 15 gms in 1995 and batted .250 with 0 HRs and a .294 OBP and
he’s now by some people identified as a Yankee great.
Gimme a break
Ian Kennedy had 14 gms with the Yanks and you identify him as a failure.
Did he fail to live up to the expectations the Yankees placed on him? It’s great that he’s having success in Arizona, but at the time the Yankees traded him, he was probably no better than their 7th/8th starter after he struggled through an awful 2008 and was injured in 2009.
I would say that qualifies him as a failure for the Yankees. Not as a major leaguer, of course, but he did not live up to the expectations.
Jesus Montero has to be a full-time catcher, or the Yankees have to trade him. One or the other. Based on the age and contracts of the other players on this team, that's the only place he fits long-term on the Yankees roster.
I do find the Yankees a little overly high/low in their take on a pitcher. When he’s doing well, the team brass seems to overly hype them. When he struggles, they very quickly give up on him.
Kennedy was supposed to be a great young pitcher. Then he sucked. Now he’s doing just fine for Arizona.
Melancon was supposed to be a dominant reliever. Then he sucked. Now he’s doing just fine, and will probably be an effective setup man.
Maybe the Yankees should make a point to include one young pitcher in the rotation each season, like happened with Nova last season? The organization’s best prospect has to be better than the Meat Trays of the world.
that actually sounds like what happened
They are way to choosy on who is good and who is bad. They enjoy the high upside guys like Brackman and Betances and don’t pay any attention to the low-ceiling/high-floor guys Phelps and Warren. They really need to realize a good player is a good player no matter how they’re ‘supposed’ to be.
I wouldn't say they "gave up" on Kennedy
They included him in a deal to get Curtis Granderson, a high value player with a team-friendly contract. They rated him lower than Hughes and Joba, but I don’t think there was anyone who disagreed with that assessment at the time.
by Let's Talk About Tex Baby on Dec 31, 2011 2:11 AM EST up reply actions
Didn’t get to comment on yesterday’s article but looking at it today some glaring weaknesses become quickly apparent.
1- is the use of Baseball America’s ratings as a starting point. Individual clubs have way more information on a given player than Baseball America. Clubs see players day in and day out over the course of years. It is that information that informs their decision not that of a magazine. Just because Baseball America says player X is rated a teams 4th best prospect doesn’t mean that the team feels the same.
2 – Javier Vazquez, Randy Johnson, Kevin Brown, Jack McDowell, Steve Trout, etc., etc. etc. Yankee and baseball history is full of “proven” talent that doesn’t live up to it’s potential in new surroundings. It’s not just the kids that can underperform their expectations.
3- While fans tend to put wins and losses as their foremost consideration in making a deal, clubs also care just as much about making a profit. That’s life.
Think about it. By the logic in yesterday’s article Derek Jeter, Robinson Cano, Mariano Rivera and every other prospect never would have warranted the "risk in keeping them.
At some point we all have to realize that clubs do the best they can and know a little more than us and our meager Baseball American subscriptions.
I love Point number 2
while people will mention it, I don’t think its considered strongly enough how different pitching in Yankee stadium in the AL East is from pitching in oakland (gio), san fran (latos), etc etc… I am also a big non-believer in NL pitchers; Until I see them succeed in the AL I assume they wont (that doesn’t mean they can’t, but i’d be highly hesitant to trade for them).
There are tons of pitcher who couldnt cut it in the offensive park in a great offensive division. Recent examples like Javy Vazquez (who was good before and after his yankee stint), Ian Kennedy’s success in AZ, and the group mentioned above.
You’re really misconstruing a lot of what I said.
The Baseball America ratings were intended to be a general rule of thumb, nothing more. My point was that many, in fact most, highly rated prospects do not live up to the kind of hype that’s being placed on Jesus Montero, Manny Banuelos, and Dellin Betances, and I used the benefit of hindsight to analyze those ratings and illustrate my point. I think doing so is perfectly reasonable and accurate.
My intent is not to squabble over whether a prospect should be ranked 10th, 21st, and so on, and while there is room for scouts, analysts, and teams to disagree over prospects project, I’m certain that there’s a generally high level of consistency between how individual teams rate their top prospects and how BA does.
As to your second point, the failure of proven veterans in New York is a multi-faceted issue. It’s very easy to say a player simply wilted under the pressure of the Big Apple, but if you scratch beneath the surface it’s more complicated than that. Every big name player who comes to New York is hyped as the missing piece to a championship, and this circus routinely goes on regardless of, or even worse, in spite of, his actual talents.
In reality, the Yankees have frequently brought in players who were old (Kevin Brown, Randy Johnson) or simply not that good in the first place (Carl Pavano, Kenny Rogers, Steve Trout, Ed Whitson), and objectively it should surprise no one that Randy Johnson didn’t win the Cy Young Award at age 41, or that Kevin Brown struggled with injuries at age 39, or that Pavano, Rogers, Trout, and Whitson didn’t spontaneously turn into aces after having only slightly-above average careers prior to coming to New York.
You illustrate my point perfectly by mentioning Jack McDowell; he gave the Yankees 217 above-average innings in 1995, yet he’s deemed an absolute failure because 1.) he gave the middle finger to the home crowd after a bad outing and 2.) he gave up the series-winning run in the ALDS while pitching in relief on one day’s rest. The point is, when you place absurd expectations upon players and then use subjective, unattainable standards to judge them, almost everybody is going to wind up being viewed as a failure.
Nobody has crystal ball on prospects, so I’m not suggesting there’s a “risk” in keeping them. It’s more about viewing minor leaguers with a healthy dose of reality and recognizing that reaching their ceiling is just one of several possible outcomes. Accordingly, it’s wise to keep some prospects around and letting them filter into the majors makes sense, but foolish to refuse to part with any of them to address a pressing need on the major league club.
Jesus Montero has to be a full-time catcher, or the Yankees have to trade him. One or the other. Based on the age and contracts of the other players on this team, that's the only place he fits long-term on the Yankees roster.
by 3460kuri on Dec 30, 2011 4:33 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I still hate that the Yankees didn’t get Haren.
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by Brandon C. on Dec 30, 2011 5:27 PM EST via iPhone app reply actions
Easily the dumbest non-move of Cashman’s tenure if what the reported package the Yanks said no to was true
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by Frank Campagnola on Dec 30, 2011 6:48 PM EST up reply actions
At the time it looked like it.
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by Brandon C. on Dec 30, 2011 7:58 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
It was a stupid non-move at the time, too.
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by Frank Campagnola on Dec 30, 2011 7:58 PM EST up reply actions
If, and that’s a big if because you just never know, Joba the middle reliever was the headline of a trade for Dan friggin’ Haren, then you make that move every single time.
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by Frank Campagnola on Dec 30, 2011 8:04 PM EST up reply actions
Was Joba a reliever at that point? I can't remember when it was
I’m thinking this trade was proposed around the time that Joba and Hughes looked to be stars (remember when?)
Joba was a reliever at this point. It was 2010.
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by Frank Campagnola on Dec 30, 2011 9:41 PM EST up reply actions
hmm What was the full package? I can't remember who was in it
perhaps Cashman didn’t want to lose them?
Joba, Nova, Zach McAllister (who was later traded for Austin Kearns and Kerry Wood, basically), and another prospect, seemingly not as big of a player/prospect as the three already mentioned or a PTBNL.
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by Frank Campagnola on Dec 30, 2011 9:48 PM EST up reply actions
It’s worth mentioning that at the time, the rotation was CC, A.J. Pettitte, Javy Vazquez, and Phil.
Javy was in the middle of pitching very well, Hughes obviously started the season extremely well, and the other three weren’t going anywhere.
Landing Haren probably meant flipping Javy for another piece, and maybe there were no partners there? No idea, just tossing out scenarios.
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by Frank Campagnola on Dec 30, 2011 9:50 PM EST up reply actions
oh man, thats disappointing. I hope Nova ends up saving that trade
it also could have led to Hughes either going to the bullpen or going to AAA, a la Ivan Nova, so a Javy deal didn’t exactly stop it from happening.
A major reason they didn't go harder for Haren...
…was that they rated Cliff Lee higher and they expected to sign him in the off-season.
Now, I would rather have Dan Haren on his contract than the 32-year-old Lee on the 7-year contract the Yankees offered him.
But at the time, the Yankees hasn’t missed out on a free agent they targeted since Roger Clemens in 1997, so they probably thought sighing Lee was a slam dunk.
by Let's Talk About Tex Baby on Dec 31, 2011 2:16 AM EST up reply actions
full package?
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
by Rorschach44 on Dec 31, 2011 12:09 PM EST up reply actions
a good point
I always assume the “leaks” of who offered what are from one side or the other trying to negotiate via the media. Some are probably true and some are probably crap and I imagine there’s a spectrum of truth in them.
Doubly so for Scott Boras clients.
The above comment is not affiliated with the San Francisco Giants, is not based on a secret source of team information, and may contain personal opinion.
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by natteringnabob on Dec 31, 2011 11:06 AM EST up reply actions
The Diamondbacks lost out a bit too, yes? What was the Yankees actual proposal again?
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by Brandon C. on Dec 30, 2011 7:58 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
I believe it was Joba, pre-ML debut Ivan Nova, and Zach McAllister.
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by Frank Campagnola on Dec 30, 2011 8:29 PM EST up reply actions
Sorry, the above proposal is the reported offer the Yanks said no to
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by Frank Campagnola on Dec 30, 2011 8:33 PM EST up reply actions
Ahhhh I see.
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Which is probably more puzzling than what they actually offered. Haren is under contract through 2012 and has an option for 2013. And he was 29 in 2010. They would have gotten a borderline ace for a middle reliever (Joba), a potential number three starter (Nova), organizational depth (McAllister), and a PTBNL.
Saying no to that is ridiculous. So I want to know what they offered prior to saying to no to that package.
Assuming all of this is true, of course.
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by Frank Campagnola on Dec 30, 2011 10:03 PM EST up reply actions
If I remember correctly, the deal they accepted from the Angels was being blasted because it was worse than the final deal the Yankees offered.
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Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
"Every day is a great day for hockey."
Joe Saunders, Tyler Skaggs, a mediocre pitching prospect and a mop.
The only useful piece they got out of that trade was Skaggs.
by Jedi Master A-Rod on Dec 30, 2011 10:42 PM EST up reply actions
and
a groundball pitcher at that, right? Handy in Yankee Stadium.
The above comment is not affiliated with the San Francisco Giants, is not based on a secret source of team information, and may contain personal opinion.
"I'll never forget San Francisco and all those beautiful moments."- Andres Torres
by natteringnabob on Dec 31, 2011 11:07 AM EST up reply actions
package
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
by Rorschach44 on Dec 31, 2011 12:05 PM EST up reply actions
Prospect's
I’m at a loss as well,why the Yanks didn’t sign one of the number of starter’s available.I would sign Haren/Oswalt.I agree that Burnett/Hughes/Nova are not number two’s and are all uncertainites at best.As I’ve repeatedly posted I believe that mgt. has decided that the $$$ is not available to spend.The prospect’s are just that and deserve a shot at the majors.Spring training s/b a good indicator of which maybe ready for the show.I agree that getting another quality starting pitcher is a priority.Who know’s what mgt thinks or will do.
how would you go about signing Haren?
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
Fidel?
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
by Rorschach44 on Dec 31, 2011 12:05 PM EST up reply actions
The other side of the prospect coin
is that you keep them. They struggle in the majors. Their value goes down. And now, instead of getting a high quality player for them when the perceived value was high, you’re lucky if you can get class A utility infielder for them.
Why is everyone obsessed with Felix?
I would not give up the killer B’s or Montero for this guy! Why the heck is everyone obsessed with him?
The past three years:
fWAR: 6.8, 6.2, 5.5
bWAR: 5.8, 6.2, 4.7
FIP: 3.09, 3.04, 3.13
xFIP: 3.37, 3.14, 3.15
ERA: 2.49, 2.27, 3.47
ERA+: 172, 174, 111
BB/9: 2.7, 2.5, 2.6
SO/9: 8.2, 8.4, 8.6
He’s never posted a WHIP higher than 1.385, and that was 4 years ago. Last season was not so great, but only by Felix Hernandez standards. He was sixth in strikeouts, 4th in complete games, 10th in fWAR, and 11th in bWAR. He was also 15th in FIP and 9th in xFIP. He won the Cy Young just 2 seasons ago. He’s only 25 years old.
by bloppy_ploppy on Dec 31, 2011 3:34 PM EST up reply actions
Some of the Felix stuff is overblown, especially with the thought that it would cost the world for him while he’s averaging $19.3MM a season over the next 3 years, but that doesn’t mean he’s not one of the best pitchers in baseball.
Contributing writer for Pinstripe Alley.
Follow me on Twitter @frankiecamp48
by Frank Campagnola on Dec 31, 2011 3:39 PM EST up reply actions
Seriously.
I don’t get the obsession with amazing young pitchers.
Why is everyone obsessed with Felix?
I would not give up the killer B’s or Montero for this guy! Why the heck is everyone obsessed with him?
by JBBY on Dec 31, 2011 2:08 PM CST
by SandalsNoPants on Dec 31, 2011 4:02 PM EST up reply actions
Rotation
Let’s give the youngsters a real chance. Kennedy did well in Arizona, although in a weak division offensively. If one wants to save costs, then work the youngsters into the major leagues. Nova so far has stayed healthy and has shown that he can win. In two years, suppose we have CC, Nova, Warren, Phelps & Betances, or mix in Banuelos and Hughes too. That does not even consider Noesi or possibly Ayala. I am not saying that all of these will turn out to be stars, but enough should be good that it is not necessary to sign an older pitcher unless the price is right. As with Nova, there comes a time when you have to give these young men the baseball in Yankee Stadium. Tyler Clippard is another example — he won in an emergency start against the Mets and never really got another clear opportunity.
I like the "yikes" quote haha
How terrible it must be to only be able to spend $189M!
29 other teams wishing they has these “problems”!
DWTDD

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