Why The Hate For Francisco Cervelli?
by Travis G on Dec 20, 2011 12:02 PM EST
in New York Yankees Analysis
Email
PrintThe Yankees' back-up catcher the last few years took a lot of crap this season. Some of it deserving, but a lot of it undeserving.
In 2011, Cervelli put up a .266/.324/.395 batting line over 137 PA, good for an 89 OPS+. Let me tell you who that was better than or equal to from among his teammates: Jorge Posada, Brett Gardner, Eduardo Nunez and Eric Chavez. AL catchers had an overall OPS+ of 90. So he was at least equal to two starters (Posada and GGBG) and just a hair worse than the average AL catcher... and he's a back-up. Why does his hitting get criticized so much?
It's fielding where he struggles. While most back-ups excel on defense, Frankie has labored over the last two years. He was great in a limited capacity in 2009, but has disappointed since then. For his career, he's an average catcher at best, ranging from 0 runs (Rdrs) to -8 runs (Rtot) over 1300 innings behind the plate. But I believe that, partly because of the passion he plays with, he tries too hard to make a spectacular play because he's a back-up. That certainly doesn't excuse his errant throws - he just has to learn to play "within himself" and not try to win the starting job, because, let's face it, he'll never (barring injury) be the best catching option for a $200M-payroll club. But I do think his defense would improve with more consistent playing time.
He's making the ML minimum and won't be arbitration eligible until 2013. He won't be a free agent until 2016. With all this talk of the Yankees trying to cut down on payroll, any place to save is a boon. A dollar saved is a dollar earned. He hit better than Jorge Posada and earned 1/30th of the salary.
He'll only be 26 next year and has hit better (albeit in a small sample size) each of the last three seasons. He should continue to improve through his late 20s.
From a purely emotional standpoint, I enjoy watching him play. As classy as Mariano Rivera and Derek Jeter are, there's something aloof about them ("been there, done that"). But I like, just as much, seeing players show raw emotion. Frankie (and Joba Chamberlain) fit that to a T and it's infectious.
If management truly doesn't think Jesus Montero can catch, then why not hang on to Frankie? Russell Martin looks entrenched as the 2012 starter, and if Jesus isn't the BUC, who is? We have a fun, solid, cheap one right now.
82 comments
|
2 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
He is a solid backup
Handles the staff pretty well. The problem is that they have a lot of quality guys coming up too. Is he any better than Romaine…probably not. Than there is Murphy and Sanchez behind him. If the Yankees can get something worthwhile for him they will. Left bullpen may be too much to ask for.
by Kansas Yankee on Dec 20, 2011 12:09 PM EST via mobile reply actions
damn spell check likes Romaine better...
by Kansas Yankee on Dec 20, 2011 12:10 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I always liked Cervelli
I believe it was the mocking of me which raised him to his heavenly status.
Romine!
I wondered where that originated
I’ve found it entertaining, anyway.
Usqueadbaugham! Anam muck an dhoul ! Did ye drink me doornail?
by Q-TDSK on Dec 20, 2011 1:07 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
There was hate for Cervelli because: a) he’s bad, and b) he was taking playing time from the guy we all wanted up here.
Anyone blocking Montero was going to take a lot of heat last season.
Contributing writer for Pinstripe Alley.
Follow me on Twitter @frankiecamp48
by Frank Campagnola on Dec 20, 2011 12:24 PM EST reply actions
This.
It just frustrates me when they continue to play Cervelli as their backup when
a) He’s not even good on defense
and
b) He’s not anywhere close to the offensive threat Montero is.
So when they sit Martin for Cervelli and not Montero, they just lose so much. Plus Cervelli has a high K rate and all he really does is hit singles.
I’m also not a fan of the fist pump. Mariano preaches that you should act like you’ve been there before. I know he plays with excitement but don’t show up your opponent when you’re a weak-as-crap backup catcher who has reached the height of his potential. It’s the equivalent of Jeff Mathis celebrating in your face.
"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth
I’m fine with Cervelli’s fist pumps. At this point in professional sports, anything south of Jose Valverde-land is deemed acceptable behavior.
I understand the griping about Cervelli playing when I’d rather see Montero, but I also think that some of the complaint has to stem from the manager and the pitching staff going so far out of their way to praise his obviously lackluster defense.
singles huh.
could have used one of those singles against detroit. but i like cervelli. he’s reliable. and fiesty. usually good off the bench the times i’ve seen him anyway,
by bleedsyankeeblue on Dec 21, 2011 2:51 AM EST up reply actions
Yes because Cervelli totally would have gotten singles against the Tigers. Let’s also not forget these Cervelli hits are RARE. I would also describe Ramiro Pena as a singles hitter, would you have wanted him up in those spots in the playoffs too?
Also it’s not like teams were winning games via the homer throughout the playoffs. Wait…
"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth
"Anyone blocking Montero was going to take a lot of heat last season."
This is true, which is why I think some of the anger was misplaced. Cervelli was (is) a perfectly serviceable back-up catcher. It’s just that between Cervelli, Martin and Posdada, we were getting next to nothing out of the catcher/DH positions, and we had a guy who could have improved those positions waiting in the wings, but the Yankees were too (stupid? stubborn? short-sighted? I don’t know) to call him up. Much of that anger about that falls on Cervelli because he was the most likely candidate to get the boot (since he could have easily been sent to the minors, whereas the Yankees were reluctant to cut Posada and couldn’t do anything with Martin).
by long time listener on Dec 20, 2011 1:17 PM EST up reply actions
Cervelli was performing better than Martin for most of the season
It was baffling that they would only allow Cervelli to play when CC pitched but threw half-dead Martin out there every other day.
I don't remember Cevelli being hated on by anyone other than Saltalamacchia.
That’s Russ you are thinking of.
One more thing Boston is a racist town? YOU DONT SAY?!?!?!?!?
by SoxAcumen on Aug 27, 2011 11:56 AM PDT
I like the idea of Romine. I don't think they see Montero's future being at catcher,
by powerlifter610 on Dec 20, 2011 12:30 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
why trade Romine over Cervelli?
Either way we shouldn’t hold back the guys moving thru they system if they have more potential. I understand they are not ready ye but they should be allowed to keep moving up and learning.
by Kansas Yankee on Dec 20, 2011 1:41 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Equal to two starters?
By wOBA and wRC+, Gardner is better than Cervelli and it’s evident that Posada is NOT a major league starter- if he wasn’t POSADA then he wouldn’t have been last year, so I take issue with the claim " So he was at least equal to two starters (Posada and GGBG)."
"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth
Doesn't matter
Those two WERE starters on the 2011 Yankees.
by Travis G on Dec 20, 2011 2:53 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I don’t trust that his future is at catcher, but the Yankees will need to carry three catchers this season. Romine will be in AAA and I prefer Cervelli over Gustavo Molina.
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
"Every day is a great day for hockey."
by Brandon C. on Dec 20, 2011 1:20 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I don’t think he is.
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
"Every day is a great day for hockey."
by Brandon C. on Dec 20, 2011 1:31 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Romine’s numbers in AA are equal to Cervelli’s numbers in the majors
Romine 2011: .279 .343 .368 338 PAs
Cervelli 2010 : .271 .359 .335 317 PAs
Cervelli 2011 : .266 .324 .395 137 PAs (injury shortened)
Nope I have made my decision and that's it
my point is that he’s not exactly promising to have a higher upside than Cervelli
Cervelli was awful in the minors, and I expect a continuous regression in his time in the majors. In my mind he’s going to end up at best as a defensive specialist, though he doesn’t even seem to fit there anymore.
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
"Every day is a great day for hockey."
What? Where does Montero fit into this? I was talking about Cervelli that entire comment.
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
"Every day is a great day for hockey."
With the bat, of course Montero looked better. But Romine, in my opinion, did look better behind the plate. And he gunned out Crawford with a missile of a throw right on the bag.
Contributing writer for Pinstripe Alley.
Follow me on Twitter @frankiecamp48
by Frank Campagnola on Dec 20, 2011 3:14 PM EST up reply actions
But did Romine really look that much better than Montero to say that Romine is a ‘defensive catcher’? One of the games Montero caught was a game where Freddy threw everything directly into the dirt and I can’t fault Jesus for that.
I have to imagine Romine throwing out Crawford had more to do with the Rays testing out a completely unknown catcher that they probably didn’t even scout (where as they would have a scouting report on Montero)
Even with the scouting report, this still happened
by Jedi Master A-Rod on Dec 20, 2011 6:14 PM EST up reply actions
Oh, piss off haha.
Jesus Montero fangirl
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Dec 20, 2011 6:16 PM EST up reply actions
Plus, I mean, Jesus had an amazing throw to get Alberto Callaspo at 2nd, and he’s no Jorge Posada on the base paths.
Jesus Montero fangirl
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Dec 20, 2011 6:16 PM EST up reply actions
I would disagree with this, and say that since Cervelli didn’t really spend much time in the upper minors at all, you’re basing your judgment off very small sample sizes.
And due to the fact that he didn’t spend much time in the upper minors, I wouldn’t expect regression from him, but rather he continues along the same path he’s on. He essentially was developing at the Major League level.
2006 – In Low-A ball, Cervelli was very good: .309/.397/.426. 42 games.
2007 – At High-A ball, he was good: .279/.387/.397. 89 games.
2008 – He got hurt in the collision during Spring Training. Played only 27 games, 21 of which were at Double-A, but hit well: .308/.411/.374
And in 2009, he got called up after a terrible 16 game stint at Double-A, which is what I’m assuming you’re basing your judgments off.
To say Cervelli was terrible in the minors is just incorrect. Also, his caught stealing percentage in the Minors was very good at 36%
Contributing writer for Pinstripe Alley.
Follow me on Twitter @frankiecamp48
by Frank Campagnola on Dec 20, 2011 3:31 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t trust the lower level #‘s much. Sure it’s a small sample size, but I trust the 2009 #‘s, as that’s indicative of how he’s supposed to hit anyway, and his talents vs. the upper levels.
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
"Every day is a great day for hockey."
So the 2009 numbers, where he struggled over just 16 games, are more indicative of his performance and skill rather than the hundreds of plate appearances before those measly 64 plate appearances? And the hundreds of plate appearances after?
Also, as Travis pointed out, his talents against Major League competition included a league average bat for a catcher in MLB in 2011 and a career .272/.338/.354 Major League line.
But those 64 plate appearances in Double-A tell us how he’s supposed to play?
By that logic, you could literally find a poor stretch of 64 plate appearances of any minor leaguer ever and say that’s "how they’re supposed to hit anyway."
You never base judgments on minor leaguers on 64 plate appearances, especially when their previous numbers at other levels indicate that they are much better than what they showed in an extremely small sample.
Contributing writer for Pinstripe Alley.
Follow me on Twitter @frankiecamp48
by Frank Campagnola on Dec 20, 2011 4:38 PM EST up reply actions
No, what I’m saying is his bat was always supposed to be his glaring weakness, and he regressed from 2010-2011, and I expect him to continue to regress.
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
"Every day is a great day for hockey."
No, what you said was this:
Sure it’s a small sample size, but I trust the 2009 #‘s, as that’s indicative of how he’s supposed to hit anyway
Contributing writer for Pinstripe Alley.
Follow me on Twitter @frankiecamp48
by Frank Campagnola on Dec 20, 2011 5:53 PM EST up reply actions
I think Brandon is looking at this in hindsight
if his 2009 #s were now, we would be saying how he will probably regress (positively) back to his career norm, or we’d need to see more if it was evidence that the league caught up with him. Saying now that back in 2009 when he sucked was i just him being who he is supposed to be is a little skewed.
Yes, what I mean is although it’s a small sample size, I think his true ability in the MLB, and upper levels of the minors are those kind of #‘s. Maybe not THAT bad, but I think he’s no better than a .315 OBP guy.
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
"Every day is a great day for hockey."
Brandon, Romine has been a league average hitter at Double-A Trenton for two seasons now (99 wRC+ in ‘10, 103 wRC+ in ’11). His bat has little to no upside. I’m not sure what you’re expecting out of him, especially now that we have two full seasons of sample size here.
Contributing writer for Pinstripe Alley.
Follow me on Twitter @frankiecamp48
by Frank Campagnola on Dec 20, 2011 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
I’m not expecting much, but I’m really, really low on Cervelli. I think Romine can stick in the MLB as a backup catcher for a good team or starter for a bad team, and Cervelli has a future as just a plain backup.
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
"Every day is a great day for hockey."
League average Double-A hitting does not lead to league average Major League hitting. He even regressed in the same league last year.
Unless he magically starts to hit for some power again, there’s no way he’s a starter at the ML level on any team, good or bad. He had all of 19 extra base hits last season…
Contributing writer for Pinstripe Alley.
Follow me on Twitter @frankiecamp48
by Frank Campagnola on Dec 20, 2011 3:20 PM EST up reply actions
However, I will say this about Romine. He has been improving his walk rate every year. If he can continue to do that and get it above 10%, and get his power back to around a .150 ISO (this is a big if), then he could be very successful.
It’s just right now, he’s a singles hitting catcher with a mediocre walk rate.
Contributing writer for Pinstripe Alley.
Follow me on Twitter @frankiecamp48
by Frank Campagnola on Dec 20, 2011 3:39 PM EST up reply actions
Also, as prospects mature and grow into their bodies, you should see their power increase, not decrease. Part of what made Romine a good prospect was that he showed some pop in High-A with a .165 ISO that was projected to improve or at least remain consistent.
Instead, it’s gone down each year since, with a .134 in ’10 and a .092 in ’11.
Contributing writer for Pinstripe Alley.
Follow me on Twitter @frankiecamp48
by Frank Campagnola on Dec 20, 2011 3:17 PM EST up reply actions
Hate is such a strong word
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Dec 20, 2011 1:21 PM EST reply actions
The Dark Side leads to Force Lightning
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Dec 20, 2011 1:35 PM EST up reply actions
I like Cervelli but with a ridiculous catching depth we have
we need to give the more promising players a chance to start. We have Montero, Martin, Romine all available to play and then we have Sanchez and Murphy coming up the system. He’s definitely gotten some big hits, but i think that has more to do with pitchers throwing him meatballs because he’s Francisco-freaking-Cervelli and he’s a little better than people realize. If his defense was good then we could actually think about keeping him around since it is legally mandated that backup catchers be ‘defensive-minded’ but Cervelli is not. I think he has a better bat than Romine but I don’t think Romine will make as many errors and errant throws The concussions are also a cause for concern and he might end up being the most valuable to the team in a trade. We should have shopped him early in the offseason when everyone was scouring for any backup catcher they could find under a rock.
well now he could be a possibility
Oswalt wants to show his back is healthy, have a big year and go back on the market and try to get a multiyear contract next winter
then again i’d rather see the Sox take a chance on him and end up losing
In 2010 Cervelli was a god on this site.
How quickly the rabble has its childlike attentions turned.
The idea that Cervelli was ‘blocking the ascent of Jesus’ is as ridiculous a roster notion as it would be a religious notion. (It took Jesus 3 days to rise from his tomb. Cervelli was blocking him, or Easter would be on a Friday).
If a backup catcher with options making the minimum salary was on the roster instead of Montero, then Montero was not yet a more valuable roster piece.
by designatedquitter on Dec 20, 2011 2:31 PM EST reply actions
Cervelli is the boulder that Jesus roles away
Cervelli was not giving us anything that Montero couldn’t give us, heck even Martin could have been replaced (or at the very least given less time behind the plate). Saying that Jesus wasn’t ready simply because he wasn’t physically in the majors at the time and obviously shouldn’t have been is like sticking your head in the sand. He’s ready to be given a shot especially when Martin’s and Cervelli’s production were both replaceable.
Actually I wasn't saying that at all.
What I was saying was:
1) He started slowly in AAA and probably would have been a disaster for a prolonged period against major league pitching;
2) He was 20 years old and probably not psychologically prepared in the eyes of the Scranton coaches and Yankee management; and
3) It is presumptuous to substitute your judgment for that of people whose job it is to evaluate these things. Do you really think Montero was held back if he was that good just to delay his arbitration eligibility? If so, based upon what evdience? Nobody else has been treated that way.
by designatedquitter on Dec 20, 2011 3:16 PM EST up reply actions
who's nobody else?
and I think he was kept down for awhile because of arbitration and then because they were in love with Russell Martin. And if we’re not going to question the “experts” what are we even discussing things? Just post a thread with what the experts say and we’ll all just say ‘yes’. I think Montero could have contributed last year, especially given the contributions people like Cervelli, Martin and Posada gave us.
the tables turned because he was the worst rated cather in the whole MLB.
He blows….zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
To all the Cervelli bashers: if you look at his career stats they are about one years’s worth of ABs and they are really good for a #1 catcher on many teams. Get Montero ready for RF in 2013 after Swisher becomes a FA – Cervelli is a fine BUC and a good team player. He should stay while Montero DHs and catches a few games. Martin can’t go more than 120 games – he wore down last year, but is a fine tough ballplayer.
Montero, right field, happening never.
Jesus Montero fangirl
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Dec 20, 2011 6:59 PM EST up reply actions
Would you put Posada in Right field?
Posada would have range compared to Montero, and Posada doesn’t have any range. Also, what did Martin actually do that was gritty?
He's tough because he had a mustache.
One more thing Boston is a racist town? YOU DONT SAY?!?!?!?!?
by SoxAcumen on Aug 27, 2011 11:56 AM PDT
I can't believe he had that thing
Russell MArtin, Derek Holland and Travis Snider can all get together
Keep smokin’ that pipe.
"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth
The Babe was also a tremendous athlete.
People don’t think about this because they know him as the fat dude hitting home runs, but in his prime, he had respectable speed, and even stole home 10 times. Also in his career in the OF, he managed a positive defensive rWAR.
"Don't you think it's strange that you'll make more money than President Hoover this year?"
"Why not? I had a better year than he did." - G.H. Ruth
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Pinstripe Alley
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
In Association With
Big League Stew - MLB - Yahoo! Sports
- Keeping good company: Albert Pujols becomes fourth-youngest player to hit 450 home runs
- Giancarlo Stanton misses cutoff man, and Logan Morrison is thankful he did (Video)
- Snoop Dogg delivers memorable first pitch at U.S. Cellular Field
- The Juice: Mesoraco’s grand slam helps Reds complete four-game sweep of Braves
- Please hold: Indians’ Joe Smith jumps the gun on relief appearance
