Damon vs. Granderson: Did The Yankees Make A Mistake?
by Ed Valentine on Aug 16, 2010 2:32 PM EDT
in New York Yankees Analysis
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PrintJohnny Damon and the Detroit Tigers visit Yankee Stadium tonight. With the season about three-quarters of the way complete, it's the perfect time to ask the question.
Did the Yankees do the right thing by letting Damon walk, then trading Austin Jackson and Phil Coke to the Tigers to replace him with Curtis Granderson?
We know Granderson is having his second straight poor season -- this one worse than the last one.
Is it too early to say definitively that this was a mistake by General Manager Brian Cashman? Three players having good seasons vs. one player having a bad one. I still understand why this move was made, and like the thought process. I'm just thinking that the returns to date show this was a bad call by Cashman.
Your thoughts?
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I think its way too early to judge.
Johnny Damon has done better this year, but not by a whole lot. Granderson is much better defensively, but Damon is a bit better offensively. Its a trade off.
"Welcome to the real world, JACKASS!"-Andy Samberg
How is AJax doing in the field?
I am too lazy to look
by HappyLuckyGoldenDragonNumber1! on Aug 16, 2010 2:46 PM EDT reply actions
I didn't say bad, I just said not excellent.
And it’s mediocre…
Less walks than Cano
More K’s than Grandy (last I checked)
Less power than Gardner
A supporter of the MFY.
Lol!
You pick three different categories and compare him to three different people? Really? Bahahahahahahaha. He’s been excellent, especially for a ROOKIE, a season which is the ONLY MLB experience he has had. Pretty damn excellent.
That’s sort of the point. He walks less than someone who is famous for having NO patience, he strikes out more than someone who is constantly berated for striking out too much, and he has less power than a slap hitting speed player.
Combine those into one player and what you end up with is a decent batting average and nothing else. And that’s not worth very much.
Questions or thoughts? Email me at duggan2423(at)gmail(dot)com
LOL OK
Less walks than Cano
More K’s than Cano
Less power than Cano
That better?
A supporter of the MFY.
and for good measure...
Less power than Grandy
Less power than Gardner
More K’s than Grandy
More K’s than Gardner
Less walks than Grandy
Less walks than Gardner
A supporter of the MFY.
Pick your stat
What about SB’s? Runs? OBP?
You guys always pick the stats to suit your argument, funny.
His offense doesn't look terrible.
Hitting over .300. He does have a lot of strike outs, and a higher OBP would be better, but overall it doesn’t seem terrible.
He also doesn't have the short porch in right field
that GGBG has.
Tough to label it a mistake...
Look, Granderson has been lackluster. And he may turn out to be a completely average CFer in every way…that book hasn’t been written.
But I have a hard time labeling this as a mistake. To me, a mistake is when you look back, use the same data you had to make a decision, and say “Yup, I should have seen that”…and then kick yourself.
In this case, I don’t see that. Given the data available, and Kevin Long’s track record as a hitting coach…I can completely see Cashman’s logic here. Still.
So…a mistake? Can’t see calling it that. Now, it might not turn out so well for the Yankees….it might turn out to be a bad deal, in hindsight. Maybe that’s playing games of semantics, but I think it’s an important distinction.
by CalinCT on Aug 16, 2010 2:49 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
The subject should be Damon vs. Johnson
It was the terrible signing of the Nick Johnson that should be questioned, not the trade for Granderson. Curtis was a good move, but signing Nick Johnson was horrible,
+16
And hell, I’d take Melky at this point in CF (Left would be better, Gardner in CF). He’s hitting better now and still guns ’em down with the best of them. If you really are honest about it, none of our off season moves have panned out: NJ, nuff said. Vazquez, not so much. Grandy, um, no.
I think we’d been better served to keep him. Melky has had to adjust to another league, he’s starting to pick it up here of late, so it’s hard to say what he would have done on the Yankees this season. But yes, I’d rather have Melky in Left, Gardner in CF.
His WAR will be under 1.0 be the end of the season without a doubt
He just simply isn’t that good
"Winning is the most important thing in my life, after breathing. Breathing first, winning next." -George Michael Steinbrenner III
by Chris McKeown on Aug 17, 2010 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm going to go with a no on this one
Curtis is much younger than Johnny Damon and likely has more good years in him than Damon. The bullpen has faired very well without Phil Coke.. and Jackson has proven to be an average baseball player thus far.
"Winning is the most important thing in my life, after breathing. Breathing first, winning next." -George Michael Steinbrenner III
I agree with everything except
saying Jackson has proven to be an average player. He still has plenty of time to develop and I think he will. I think in the future he cuts down on the K’s and gets a little more power. I dont think he will ever be a star or anything but I think he can be a solid .300 hitter and hit about 10-12 homers a year and play good defense.
Ok
So he might be a bit above average
"Winning is the most important thing in my life, after breathing. Breathing first, winning next." -George Michael Steinbrenner III
by Chris McKeown on Aug 16, 2010 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Whatever we'll see in the future haha
"Winning is the most important thing in my life, after breathing. Breathing first, winning next." -George Michael Steinbrenner III
by Chris McKeown on Aug 16, 2010 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I really do hope he does improve though and cut down on the K's and add some more power
I liked him when he was with us and wish him luck
Man, I'm pissed, remember my virtual pro on MLB2k10?
Yea well we won the World Series, in this mode there’s no control of the front office.
Posada: Retires (kinda reasonable)
Rivera: Retires (slightly less reasonable)
Berkamn: Re-signed (not expected but I’m not complaining)
Jeter: SIGNS WITH BOSTON
/rant
As for this post, I really am glad we made this trade.
Damon? Had nothing to do with this, Yankees didn’t really want him in the field.
Jackson? Other than sentiment I don’t really miss him, he’ll be mediocre if he doesn’t develop power.
Coke? Let’s see that ERA in The Stadium, guy gave up a lotta homers last year.
Kennedy? Yawn.
A supporter of the MFY.
Jeter signing with Boston...
That’s .. incomprehensible
"Winning is the most important thing in my life, after breathing. Breathing first, winning next." -George Michael Steinbrenner III
by Chris McKeown on Aug 16, 2010 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Even if it was just a video game
A part of me died inside
SB Nation clearly needs a Scunthorpe United blog
lol
"Winning is the most important thing in my life, after breathing. Breathing first, winning next." -George Michael Steinbrenner III
by Chris McKeown on Aug 16, 2010 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
On my copy of The Show 10, Jeter and Mo end up signing with the Braves in 2011. To make things weird Pettitte retires, Hughes goes to the Phillies along with Joba, Cano goes to the White Sox in 2012 and becomes a SS, Yanks sign Matt Holiday to play LF, and Buster Posey is the starting catcher…strange, no?
by Bronx_Booyah on Aug 16, 2010 9:41 PM EDT up reply actions
That game always has weird ass roster changes
on my brothers, Aj Burnett and Brett Gardner were traded for Kris Medlen
yeah, and he's wearing number 5
dude, it’s a good thing the graphics in 2k10 aren’t that great like they are in Madden 11. Cuz I played a game against them and stole 2nd, Jeter’s face looked 100% generic…so it was that bad. He also changed #’s to 5.
If it weren’t for the guy saying, “grounded to short, Jeter comes up with, throws to youkilis” etc then couldn’t have known.
Still, it absolutely sucked
A supporter of the MFY.
WOW.
"Winning is the most important thing in my life, after breathing. Breathing first, winning next." -George Michael Steinbrenner III
by Chris McKeown on Aug 16, 2010 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions
the worst part was Cano grounding into a double play with me on base
Watching Jeter turn a double play on Cano was just wrong lol.
A supporter of the MFY.
Wait... please tell me I heard this correctly
Jeter SIGNED with BOSTON in your game? That brings me to tears
YES
After the offseason started under departing it showed
“Jeter: Free Agency”
Then I frantically checked the Yankees depth chart…no Jeter…some rookie took over.
Then I ran through all the depth charts…under Boston Red Sox
“#5: D. Jeter”
A supporter of the MFY.
Make a trade. There must be some manual override.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
I've looked all over, nothing!
There’s an option to recommend upcoming free agents but you have to be a veteran and my guy’s in the 2nd year!
A supporter of the MFY.
Hypocritical hypothetics
How can you like the thinking that led to the move but knock the move after 4 and 1/2 months?
Sure, you’d have AJax on the team, hitting with the power of GGBG. Which is why they traded for Granderson- to stop this from being the most powerless outfield in Yankee history.
Let’s at least get to the end of the season before killing Granderson. Look at what Tex’s recent hot streak changed his overall numbers. .231/.343/.411 on June 30. .308/.401/.658 in the 38 games since brings his line to .256/.362/.492.
Granderson’s swing looks a lot better to me now that he’s keeping both hands on the bat- he hit a couple bullets to LF in the Royals series that might have been gone at the Stadium.
There’s still 45 games to play, more than a quarter of the season. Let’s play.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
I agree ...
that the book has only been partially written. But, you have basically given up three productive players for one who has thus far been disappointing. The thinking behind the move — getting younger and less expensive — was sound. Granderson has to play better, though, to make this worthwhile.
by Ed Valentine on Aug 16, 2010 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Also, there’s a long term aspect to this. Granderson has an option for 2014, and AJax (I think) is under team control until 2015.
I expect AJax to collapse as teams get a good look at him. He’s on pace for 170 K. I don’t think a player can remain a viable major leaguer striking out that much with as little power as Jackson has. There are some big holes in that swing.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
Granderson is under contract for 3 more years?
"Winning is the most important thing in my life, after breathing. Breathing first, winning next." -George Michael Steinbrenner III
by Chris McKeown on Aug 16, 2010 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually, reading through the details at Cot’s, it looks like there’s a typo and the option is for 2013:
- 5 years/$30.25M (2008-13), plus 2014 club option
* signed extension with Detroit 2/4/08
* 08:$1M, 09:$3.5M, 10:$5.5M, 11:$8.25M, 12:$10M, 13:$13M club option ($2M buyout)
* 2013 option increases to:
o $15M if MVP (1st – 5th) in 2011 or 2012
o $14M if All Star in 2011 or 2012
o $13.5M if All Star selection in 2011 or 2012
* award bonuses: $25,000 each for All Star, Gold Glove; $50,000 for Silver Slugger; $75,000 for LCS MVP; $0.1M for MVP, WS MVP
* acquired by NY Yankees in 3-way trade from Detroit 12/9/09
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
Interesting
Not going to be worth the extension haha
"Winning is the most important thing in my life, after breathing. Breathing first, winning next." -George Michael Steinbrenner III
by Chris McKeown on Aug 16, 2010 8:39 PM EDT up reply actions
B-Ref has 2013 as the option year as well.
Questions or thoughts? Email me at duggan2423(at)gmail(dot)com
by Lord Duggan on Aug 16, 2010 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I have no problem with the ideas of the trades
and not signing the old farts Damon and Matsui. Getting younger with viable replacements Granderson for Melky and Johnson for Matsui was fine with me, anything other is pure hindsight.
So far, the moves don’t seem to be working out on their own, cuz AJAX is hitting well even if he’s a light hitting Brett Gardner at this point.
I’d still do every move, even Nick Johnson, again if the offseason had to be re-done.
But there’s still plenty of time for all, including Nick Johnson, to show what they got and become a Yankee™. Cuz well….the team has the best record in baseball.
and it also seems Grandy's new approach is helping
we’ll see against some true MLB pitching in the Detroit series tho
by FreeBradshaw on Aug 16, 2010 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Not a mistake in my opinion
I like what we did and have no regrets. At first I didnt like the moves but as the season has gone on I am completely fine with them
the difference between each player right now is minimal despite what the "avg"
Also Coke is not as good as his ERA suggests. .250 vs lefties which is the same vs righties. basically he;s a lefty who can;t get lefties out consistently. his 1.6% hr rate might be luck or a product of comerica park but it’s not an indication of how good he is, since last year he had a 13.5% hr rate..and it doesn’t fall like magic.
Also: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/expanded-four-factors-austin-jacksons-babip/
basically if Ajax’s BABIP stops being over .400 and he continues to preform he has done now (high k rates, low power etc) he will be a below avg player. It probably won;t be evident this season b/c of his hot start… (altho that has come down too) but next season if he doesn’t make any adjustments he will have trouble. an no i’m not hating on AJAX…just pointing out the facts.
This trade will look a lot better later on
When age actually catches up to Damon and Ajax regresses to the powerless Jacoby Ellsbury-type player his current peripherals suggest him to be.
Besides it's not time to grade
The two most important months of Yankee baseball haven’t even arrived yet.
"‘cause he’s worried about everything, and he tries to win all the time."
-- Francisco Cervelli on Alex Rodriguez
Its about Johnson not Grandy
Nick Johnson is the counterpart to Damon. If Damon wasn’t such a douche he’d be a Yankee right now, be far happier in life, and be on a better team.
Nick Johnson was a decent risk. I just don’t agree that we didn’t also still need Damon, even if only for 2 years.
NO ONE could have foreseen Gardner playing this well OR Grandy playing this poorly.
EIther way we have 1 definite and 1 other borderline Allstar OF. I’m ok with that.
When Damon is retired, which must be in the cards at some point, Granderson should still be playing.
Even if he isn’t an allstar, he will have more value than someone who shows up for OldTimer’s Day and card shows. Coke will stick around the majors forever, because he’s ggod enough to stick in anybody’s bullpen, and he’s a lefty.
Nick Johnson’s body will become the model for a jigsaw puzzle, since all the little squiggly lines are already on him from his various surgeries. His next stop is KC or Pittsburgh where he will get a minimal contract to try to last 100 games.
Whatever one thinks of the hitting involved, it’s hard to argue that the Yankees aren’t better defensively without Damon, and not having him DH allows Posada and Arod to do so,
by designatedquitter on Aug 16, 2010 4:14 PM EDT reply actions
they are a trade off so far this year......
But Granderson’s age plays more of a factor……the value of a younger player of the same caliber performance makes him the deal breaker IMO.
by Gangsta Yanksta on Aug 16, 2010 4:51 PM EDT reply actions
I'm going to the game tonight
Should I boo Damon? Cheer him? Curse him out? Sit on my hands? Keep in mind that I’ll be way too far away for him to notice or care.
by long time listener on Aug 16, 2010 4:56 PM EDT reply actions
If it aint broke...
….dont fix it.
Yanks could have stuck with Damon and Melky and been OK this year…..heck Matsui too! I’m not saying this Yankee team can’t or won’t win this year….they probably will. But last year the team seemed to be a bit tighter, more fun of group that had grown together….then they win, and it’s let’s upgrade because you know…well….they’re too old or broken or whatever.
Granderson is a nice player. I bet next year he’ll be better…..but no one ever thought he’d be a superstar. Just an upgrade on defense in the OF over Damon……and NOT nearly as clutch.
I woulda stuck with Damon, kept Ajax to see what he could have brought to the party. Besides, these are the Yanks and if that plan would have stunk this year, you can can always upgrade at ANY time! This isn’t Kansas City!!!
Miss ya fellas!!!
what if it ain't broke but it's showing cracks?
Melky had a good year but likely wasn’t gonna be that good this year (and he hasn’t)
Damon’s getting old.
Matsui’s getting old.
A supporter of the MFY.
I’m not saying it was an easy call, just that it was a championship team and they could have kept Damon and Ajax to go with Gardiner and Swisher in a 4 man OF rotating to DH with Posada and the Yanks would have most likely been fine. Also, the Yanks being who they are can go and get anyone at any time if they reeeaaallly want to/need to. I love Matsui too, but he’s the one guy who would have had to be the DH or nothing.
Yankees got Javier Vazquez and Boone Logan for Melky
I’d say it’s worked out just fine
"Winning is the most important thing in my life, after breathing. Breathing first, winning next." -George Michael Steinbrenner III
by Chris McKeown on Aug 17, 2010 1:31 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
No, they got Javy and Boone for Arodys Vizcaino. Melky and Michael Dunn were throw ins.
Questions or thoughts? Email me at duggan2423(at)gmail(dot)com
Interesting
"Winning is the most important thing in my life, after breathing. Breathing first, winning next." -George Michael Steinbrenner III
by Chris McKeown on Aug 17, 2010 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Old baseball adage
“Better to trade a player a year too soon than a year too late.”
"I don't want one of those guys who'll drive in two but let in three every game." Casey Stengel
by tnredneckyankeesfan on Aug 16, 2010 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions
it worked with Swisher
they got a guy having a down year who blossomed in NY.
as for Ajax’s D, i was surprised to see the metrics rate him not all that great.
Ajax: Bref, -6, +15, FanGraphs, +1.5
Damon: Bref, -1, +1, FG, +.4
Grandy: Bref, -4, +2, FG, +3
well Gardner is simply outstand
from what I saw of Ajax he was quite good too
A supporter of the MFY.
he was good earlier int he year then mid way he wasn't as amazing
which really brought his ratings down
ah, Grandy has been great the entire year
I like the changes he made to his swing…if the past series was at YS he coulda had 3 homers.
A supporter of the MFY.
Grandy stats will improve ... Good move longer term
Grandy had a groin injury in first half which caused him to miss time & production. KLong is working to improve his performance against lefties with success. Grandy is still young with upside.
Biggest Bust… NJ instead of Damon. Unbelievable that NJ has missed almost the whole season and he was only a DH!!! DL stats never lie.
by YANKEES FOREVER on Aug 16, 2010 6:13 PM EDT reply actions
Let's be honest
Damon and Matsui haven’t exactly been All Stars
"Winning is the most important thing in my life, after breathing. Breathing first, winning next." -George Michael Steinbrenner III
Agreed with everyone saying it's not a mistake
I see what Granderson has been doing, but I also see what Damon and AJax have been doing. Damon will only get worse, Granderson will probably get a little better, and AJax…well, if he can trade some strikeouts for some pop, he might be a good one. We’ll see what happens. Point is, I didn’t have a problem with these moves then, and don’t have them now.
"I am a man of great mental power." ~Alfonso Soriano
The Yankees must hire this man for the 7th inning stretch
"I am a man of great mental power." ~Alfonso Soriano
That's pretty badass
"Winning is the most important thing in my life, after breathing. Breathing first, winning next." -George Michael Steinbrenner III
by Chris McKeown on Aug 16, 2010 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions
wrong comparision
its not like we traded damon for curtis
the real question – was the granderson trade a mistake, seeing that we could have just kept/started ajax..time will tell, but so far it doesn’t look like a winner
Still way too early to judge
This could take a few years until we understand the true impact of this trade. Jackson is so young and Granderson could have multiple years left with the Yankees.
How can you say “it’s too early to tell” and have your answer be anything other than pure hindsight? Maybe Granderson develops a heroin problem tomorrow or Phil Coke gets hit by a train, there’s no way to predict the future.
The reasonable question to ask is, at the time of the decision, did the information that was available at that time support the decision that was made? I have no idea how this trade will be viewed in 10 years or whether or not it will be considered a “win” for the Yankees based on the after the fact results, but at the time of the trade, it was the correct move. And if you keep making correct moves, more often than not they pan out.
Questions or thoughts? Email me at duggan2423(at)gmail(dot)com
LOL
"Winning is the most important thing in my life, after breathing. Breathing first, winning next." -George Michael Steinbrenner III
by Chris McKeown on Aug 16, 2010 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions
not like Cashman worked out great trades for Swisher and Arod or anything...
A supporter of the MFY.
+1
"Winning is the most important thing in my life, after breathing. Breathing first, winning next." -George Michael Steinbrenner III
by Chris McKeown on Aug 17, 2010 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions
To early to say!? I've been saying or months...
This was a huge mistake and the Yanks will regret it for years. Coke pitched very competently last year and this year he has been a workhorse for Detroit. Damon would hit a lot more home runs in Yankee Stadium and he is also Mr, Clutch. Grandy is impaired against lefties and seems to have rapidly depreciating skills. Jackson is like fourth in hits and considering how many hits the Yanks have had in the last week or so, they could definitely use some. Cashman way over paid and then there is of course the incredible Nick Johnson pick up, meaning we picked up his $5 million Blue Cross bill in exchange for the much beloved Matsui who also would have hit a lot more home runs in Yankee Stadium. Those 58 home runs and clutch hitting are really starting to hurt us a the season rolls on. Damon and Mtsui are also mensches – you can look it up.
LOL "fourth in hits" try tied for 16th
If you’re gonna defend an unpopular argument get your facts straight, please.
A supporter of the MFY.
Tied for 10th with 130
How many hits does Grandy have or winn or johnson.. plus the guy is like 22 with a .300 AB… Yes it was good to lose this guy! Ohm he also has tons of speed and can field… I assume 10 years from now we’ll be talking about him when it will be like Grandy who?
well considering Grandy would be 40 in 10 years
it probably will be Grandy who since he will be retired
Why would we be talking about him 10 years from now? He certainly won't be a Yankee.
He certainly won’t be a star either…I don’t spend much time talking about league average players on other team.
A supporter of the MFY.
the Yanks
I said it before the season started that the Yankees will not win anything with that outfield of Gardner, Granderson and Swish. Letting Melky, Damon and Matsui go was a great idea but what they got in return was stupid, (Winn, Thames and Ouch my finger hurts Johnson etc). Then they get Berkman and Austin Kearns neither has played on winning teams. No being a die-hard Yankee fan this next two months are going to be painful. GOD BLESS AMERICA AND OUR SERVICEMEN/WOMEN AND THE YANKEES.
the OF is better this year
really hate to break it to ya!
by FreeBradshaw on Aug 17, 2010 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions
BUT WE ONLY HAVE ONE ALL STAR OUTFIELDER
"Winning is the most important thing in my life, after breathing. Breathing first, winning next." -George Michael Steinbrenner III
by Chris McKeown on Aug 17, 2010 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions
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