Why Trade Jesus Montero? Why Not?
by 3460kuri on Jul 9, 2010 11:31 AM EDT
in New York Yankees Analysis
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Print[Note by Travis, 2:05 p.m. - the additional prospects appear to be 2B David Adams and RHP Zach McAllister.]
I will admit this is purely speculation, but I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility.
Here's what we know - Montero's defense behind the plate has always gotten mixed reviews from scouts. Publicly, the Yankees still consider him to be a catcher, but privately, what if they're not so optimistic?
This is critical, because if the Yankees don't see Montero as even a part-time catcher in the big leagues, where else is he going to play for them? They have long-term contracts and/or better players at first base, left field, and right field, and with an older roster, it makes no sense to carry a rookie DH.
If this is the conclusion that the Yankees brass has come to - and all I'm suggesting is that it's plausible - then it doesn't matter how good a hitter Montero is, his only value to Yankees is as trade bait, and the sooner the better.
At the same time, if they're going to get Cliff Lee one way or the other, why not trade for him now, keep the draft picks you would have had to surrender, and trade Javier Vazquez for prospects? From an organizational standpoint, the sum of those parts may have more practical value than a hitting prospect who has nowhere to play, and it gives them an absurdly good rotation for this year's playoff push.
If the Yankees are pessimistic about Montero behind the plate, this actually makes a lot of sense. We'll see what happens.
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I guess to me it's just a deal of "why trade the top prospect"
We don’t even need Cliff Lee. We need at least one bullpen arm, maybe two.
The rotation is fine as is.
"Chicks who dig home runs aren't the ones who appeal to me. I think there's sexiness in infield hits because they require technique. I'd rather impress the chicks with my technique than with my brute strength. Then, every now and then, just to show I can do that, too, I might flirt a little by hitting one out." - Ichiro
by WhiteWinterHymnal on Jul 9, 2010 11:34 AM EDT reply actions
Imagine how good it'd be if got Lee
Just sayin.
I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious.
Vince Lombardi
I'm only in support if we lose Javy and get Lee
If that happens, I guess I’m halfway OK with it.
Javy always has late-season implosions, so it might be best to trade him before he implodes on us.
"Chicks who dig home runs aren't the ones who appeal to me. I think there's sexiness in infield hits because they require technique. I'd rather impress the chicks with my technique than with my brute strength. Then, every now and then, just to show I can do that, too, I might flirt a little by hitting one out." - Ichiro
by WhiteWinterHymnal on Jul 9, 2010 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm just not a fan of waiting
for prospects to come around. If the Yankees did this they would be the Pirates. Don’t ever pass up a proven top 5 pitcher for a prospect. Championships need to be won today not 3 years down the road.
"That's why you don't play! 'Cuz you're no good!" -Joe Paterno
incorrect
for the yankees and cashman, championships need to be won today and 3 years down the road
I believe in the Church of Baseball
by Frank Campagnola on Jul 9, 2010 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Lee is only 30.
"Young men, I have no doubt that you're gonna do well today. But I have 1 favor to ask of you... SAVE JIMMY JOHNSON'S ASS FOR ME!" Lou Holtz
by TheRealSlimShady on Jul 9, 2010 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Because its Cliff Lee, and...
because in the history of baseball no “prospect” ever won a WS.
ALSO… (as read in what makes perfect sense)
The Yankees want Lee in case Andy Pettitte’s expiration date comes before November. They want Lee in case Javy Vazquez can’t be trusted in a pennant race. They want Lee so Phil Hughes doesn’t have to be their second-best pitcher at such a tender age — and they want Lee so A.J. Burnett doesn’t have to pitch at all.
ABSO- F’n – LOOTLY
Awesome post
I’m still only liking the deal if we sign an extension immediately. You never know what can happen, and all the talk about Montero being trade bait means nothing if we only rent Lee for half a season.
I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious.
Vince Lombardi
Yankees have tremendous catching prospects
I think this trade is actually worth it now the more I think about it… Javy or Hughes to the pen OR trade Javy bench or bullpen help
"If you're a Yankee fan, or if you're not a Yankee fan - you have to admit, we're winners." -Paul O'Neill
and yes, SIGN AN EXTENSION NOW.
Or else I don’t like this deal.
"If you're a Yankee fan, or if you're not a Yankee fan - you have to admit, we're winners." -Paul O'Neill
by Chris McKeown on Jul 9, 2010 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Self-promotion!!!
Follow a bunch of baseball writers on twitter here:
http://twitter.com/Monotonousblob/baseball
If you have any reccommendations, please let me know
Get outta here mang
"If you're a Yankee fan, or if you're not a Yankee fan - you have to admit, we're winners." -Paul O'Neill
by Chris McKeown on Jul 9, 2010 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
Get
out
"Chicks who dig home runs aren't the ones who appeal to me. I think there's sexiness in infield hits because they require technique. I'd rather impress the chicks with my technique than with my brute strength. Then, every now and then, just to show I can do that, too, I might flirt a little by hitting one out." - Ichiro
by WhiteWinterHymnal on Jul 9, 2010 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
It's just a list I put together of all the writers everyone has been linking to here
Figured it would be easier
by Monotonousblob on Jul 9, 2010 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
i would rather trade montero
than romine or sanchez
I'm fine with trading Montero.
But, as of right now, a starting pitcher isn’t really something of a need.
This
Wait until a real need comes up and plug it with the chips you saved rather than traded. Simple logic.
"I am a man of great mental power." ~Alfonso Soriano
by Captain_Mick on Jul 9, 2010 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Eh, I'm against it but if it happens, I'm good with it too.
"He needs to pitch in a higher league, if there is one. Ban him from baseball. He should be illegal."
—Tom Kelly, manager of Minnesota Twins, after his team faced Rivera
I'm happy either way, does that help u?
"He needs to pitch in a higher league, if there is one. Ban him from baseball. He should be illegal."
—Tom Kelly, manager of Minnesota Twins, after his team faced Rivera
by DarthRichter on Jul 9, 2010 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions
I suppose now is a good time for you guys to take shots at me for me saying we were going to catch you…
Join the Lacrosse community at theprolaxblog.blogspot.com
Talk about Boston sports at http://www.bestbostonsports.com/
"That place was for diehard sports fans. I only follow my team when they're in the playoffs" - Homer Simpson
by bestbostonsports on Jul 9, 2010 11:38 AM EDT reply actions
lol nah
No need to be douchers.. the race isn’t over yet anyway
"If you're a Yankee fan, or if you're not a Yankee fan - you have to admit, we're winners." -Paul O'Neill
by Chris McKeown on Jul 9, 2010 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Tampa is still close
"I'm looking at 600 as first base. I want to run right through it and use it as a platform and a spring board for more to come"- Alex Rodriguez
maybe not YET
Join the Lacrosse community at theprolaxblog.blogspot.com
Talk about Boston sports at http://www.bestbostonsports.com/
"That place was for diehard sports fans. I only follow my team when they're in the playoffs" - Homer Simpson
by bestbostonsports on Jul 9, 2010 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions
WTF?
Holy shit, I just woke up and this is what I see. I dont know If I should be excited or pissed that we could be trading Montero
lol good morning sir
"If you're a Yankee fan, or if you're not a Yankee fan - you have to admit, we're winners." -Paul O'Neill
by Chris McKeown on Jul 9, 2010 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm pissed off
good morning. I thought the same thing, except I knew right away that I was pissed off and NOT pleased
"I'm looking at 600 as first base. I want to run right through it and use it as a platform and a spring board for more to come"- Alex Rodriguez
I'm kinda excited now to be honest
This is gonna be ridiculous
"If you're a Yankee fan, or if you're not a Yankee fan - you have to admit, we're winners." -Paul O'Neill
by Chris McKeown on Jul 9, 2010 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions
So new rotation after we trade Javy:
CC/Lee/AJ/Pettitte/Hughes
That’s an incredible rotation, but what about the bullpen?
"Chicks who dig home runs aren't the ones who appeal to me. I think there's sexiness in infield hits because they require technique. I'd rather impress the chicks with my technique than with my brute strength. Then, every now and then, just to show I can do that, too, I might flirt a little by hitting one out." - Ichiro
by WhiteWinterHymnal on Jul 9, 2010 11:42 AM EDT reply actions
maybe they should trade Javy for a bullpen arm instead of Werth
"I'm looking at 600 as first base. I want to run right through it and use it as a platform and a spring board for more to come"- Alex Rodriguez
I like this idea
Where the hell does Werth even fit in? Backup OF?
"Chicks who dig home runs aren't the ones who appeal to me. I think there's sexiness in infield hits because they require technique. I'd rather impress the chicks with my technique than with my brute strength. Then, every now and then, just to show I can do that, too, I might flirt a little by hitting one out." - Ichiro
by WhiteWinterHymnal on Jul 9, 2010 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions
DH
results in the DFA of Nick Johnson probably
"I'm looking at 600 as first base. I want to run right through it and use it as a platform and a spring board for more to come"- Alex Rodriguez
Awww yeah
"Chicks who dig home runs aren't the ones who appeal to me. I think there's sexiness in infield hits because they require technique. I'd rather impress the chicks with my technique than with my brute strength. Then, every now and then, just to show I can do that, too, I might flirt a little by hitting one out." - Ichiro
by WhiteWinterHymnal on Jul 9, 2010 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions
LOL
"If you're a Yankee fan, or if you're not a Yankee fan - you have to admit, we're winners." -Paul O'Neill
by Chris McKeown on Jul 9, 2010 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
i'm all for trading montero
but not for cliff lee…we need help in the bullpen. there’s nothing wrong with our rotation.
A thousand lips. A thousand tongues. A thousand throats. A thousand lungs. A thousand ways to make it true. I want to do terrible things to you.
by Nine Inch Nails on Jul 9, 2010 11:43 AM EDT reply actions
top prospects dont get traded for bullpen arms.
come on.
I believe in the Church of Baseball
by Frank Campagnola on Jul 9, 2010 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions
So what the hell is going on
I havent read anything about it yet, what would happen? Is Javy getting traed? Is Hughes going back to the pen?
Rosenthal puts the odds of a Javier Vazquez-Werth swap at 50-1 and says the Rays are not likely to acquire the Phillies' outfielder (Twitter link).
"If you're a Yankee fan, or if you're not a Yankee fan - you have to admit, we're winners." -Paul O'Neill
do you think
any of us here will put any stock into anything that comes out of Ken Rosenthal’s mouth?
"I'm looking at 600 as first base. I want to run right through it and use it as a platform and a spring board for more to come"- Alex Rodriguez
lol
"If you're a Yankee fan, or if you're not a Yankee fan - you have to admit, we're winners." -Paul O'Neill
by Chris McKeown on Jul 9, 2010 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions
I have a question
After Halladay was traded to the Phillies, it got out that the Yankees were willing to trade Montero straight up for Roy Halladay- nothing more. Thats why they didn’t get him.
But now, they are willing to trade Montero + more prospects for Cliff Lee? Why? Halladay is the better pitcher of the two. Has Montero’s value gone down because of his bad year? In that case it’s even more stupid to trade him right now.
"I'm looking at 600 as first base. I want to run right through it and use it as a platform and a spring board for more to come"- Alex Rodriguez
Here's your answer
That’s what i said above ^^, more than one reason at play here….The Twinkies NOW have the resources to sign him long term, besides the fact they might not want him to pitch against them twice in a short series. Forget the Rays, always make noise, never make a big splash.
for them a 3 month rental, already going to lose Crawford and .199 Pena.
(Above was on previous thread)
His mother has a tattoo that reads, "Son".
Sharks have a week dedicated to HIM.
"It doesn't take more than one person, to talk to a woman.
Stay thirsty my friends."
by Great Gatsby on Jul 9, 2010 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Keep Javy unless you get a good bat for him, move Hughes to the 8th inning.
by upstateNYYFan1984 on Jul 9, 2010 11:44 AM EDT reply actions
no way hughes to the pen
did u forget he has has 10 wins? leave him where he is
A thousand lips. A thousand tongues. A thousand throats. A thousand lungs. A thousand ways to make it true. I want to do terrible things to you.
by Nine Inch Nails on Jul 9, 2010 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions
thanks
not as good as they used to be but still in my top 5 bands
A thousand lips. A thousand tongues. A thousand throats. A thousand lungs. A thousand ways to make it true. I want to do terrible things to you.
by Nine Inch Nails on Jul 9, 2010 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions
10:44: Catching prospect Jesus Montero and second base prospect David Adams will head to the Mariners, possibly with another prospect, according to Joel Sherman of the New York Post, who broke the story.
wonderful
does that mean done deal pretty much?
"I'm looking at 600 as first base. I want to run right through it and use it as a platform and a spring board for more to come"- Alex Rodriguez
Joel Sherman is coming onto WFAN 660 soon
For those in the NY area
"If you're a Yankee fan, or if you're not a Yankee fan - you have to admit, we're winners." -Paul O'Neill
In the end good deal for both clubs
Seattle really needs young power bats, and Lee with CC and Andy in the postseason actually makes my mouth water. I just hope everyone stays healthy.
by upstateNYYFan1984 on Jul 9, 2010 11:46 AM EDT reply actions
They have long-term contracts and/or better players at first base, left field, and right field, and with an older roster, it makes no sense to carry a rookie DH.
From what I’ve heard, Montero has the potential to be a much more productive hitter than Gardner or Swisher, and I don’t really see why it wouldn’t make sense to have a rookie DH.
Editor-In-Chief
Gang Green Nation
SB Nation's Jets Blog
http://www.ganggreennation.com
He could be a part time DH, part time catcher
and then maybe move to first base when Tex’s contract is up. A-Rod will probably be a full time DH by then anyway.
"I'm looking at 600 as first base. I want to run right through it and use it as a platform and a spring board for more to come"- Alex Rodriguez
it makes no sense to carry a rookie DH
because that clogs up the DH spot for resting our aging players over the next 2-3 seasons. That’s why the NJ signing happened, actually, because it’s who they could get for one year, and next year they need the DH open (especially for Posada, who is on pace to catch the fewest games of his career as a regular, adjusted for DL time, and will probably catch less in 2011)
Somebody is going to be the regular DH, though. I don’t see any reason why that couldn’t be Montero. Honestly I’d rather have him than somebody like NJ.
Editor-In-Chief
Gang Green Nation
SB Nation's Jets Blog
http://www.ganggreennation.com
there won't be anybody like NJ
as I said, it will be primarily Jorge, with significant time for ARod and Jeter. Notice how the DH spot has been overflowing this season, even with NJ on the DL…
So if the deal is done today...any chance Lee mails it in tonight? I mean technically it helps him...
lol
"We're only going to score 17 points?" - Tom Brady
"Well played, Mauer." - Guy from PS3 commercials
yeah, I heard that isn't happening
"We're only going to score 17 points?" - Tom Brady
"Well played, Mauer." - Guy from PS3 commercials
How sure of this deal are we?
its getting so much hype but is it a done deal yet?
"just about done"
don’t know if that means other teams can swoop in or not
http://twitter.com/KenDavidoff/statuses/18125569731
this guy says it’s over
"We're only going to score 17 points?" - Tom Brady
"Well played, Mauer." - Guy from PS3 commercials
Means other
teams can go away, Yanks or bust!
His mother has a tattoo that reads, "Son".
Sharks have a week dedicated to HIM.
"It doesn't take more than one person, to talk to a woman.
Stay thirsty my friends."
by Great Gatsby on Jul 9, 2010 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions
So what happens with the rotation now?
I’d be disappointing in a Vazquez trade… He’s been one of our better starters over the past month or so, and although the farm is always a concern, we’ll still get draft picks if he jumps ship in the offseason. I also think it would be the height of idiocy to move Hughes back into the ’pen before the playoffs, although the move makes sense after they begin.
Personally, I think they should do this – use Javy as a sixth starter with the goal of spelling Hughes to keep his innings down. He can spot start or contribute in long relief, but essentially I’d like to see the two of them platoon the 5th starter slot. Any thoughts on how this would work?
I want them to do something like that
However, if they can trade Javy for a bench player and a good bullpen arm.. do it. His contract is up at season’s end.
"If you're a Yankee fan, or if you're not a Yankee fan - you have to admit, we're winners." -Paul O'Neill
by Chris McKeown on Jul 9, 2010 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Now a
card carrying member of Red Sox Nation, have you been to OTM yet?
His mother has a tattoo that reads, "Son".
Sharks have a week dedicated to HIM.
"It doesn't take more than one person, to talk to a woman.
Stay thirsty my friends."
by Great Gatsby on Jul 9, 2010 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions
On the bright side, if we trade Javy for Werth he at least have to shave his awful beard
And cut his awful hair
"We're only going to score 17 points?" - Tom Brady
"Well played, Mauer." - Guy from PS3 commercials
That won't happen
I would rather have Utley’s head shaved anyway
"If you're a Yankee fan, or if you're not a Yankee fan - you have to admit, we're winners." -Paul O'Neill
by Chris McKeown on Jul 9, 2010 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
10:58am: The deal is 'imminent,' a source tells Mark Feinsand of the New York Daily News (Twitter link).
"If you're a Yankee fan, or if you're not a Yankee fan - you have to admit, we're winners." -Paul O'Neill
Fuck this
DFA CASHMAN!
"I'm looking at 600 as first base. I want to run right through it and use it as a platform and a spring board for more to come"- Alex Rodriguez
cashmonAY
"If you're a Yankee fan, or if you're not a Yankee fan - you have to admit, we're winners." -Paul O'Neill
by Chris McKeown on Jul 9, 2010 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions
How much is Cliff Lee making?
how much more are the Yankees taking onto their already enormous payroll?
"I'm looking at 600 as first base. I want to run right through it and use it as a platform and a spring board for more to come"- Alex Rodriguez
so much for "losing money"
"I'm looking at 600 as first base. I want to run right through it and use it as a platform and a spring board for more to come"- Alex Rodriguez
Always wondered why that is important?
We’re not in the Yankee accounting office. My hot dog will taste the same and I’m still gonna buy the beer and the games’ll still be on TV. Let the Yankees worry about paying him. I’m interested in what he does on the field. On the field a home run by Thames nets you just as much as a home run by A-Rod.
that's the first DFA I've seen in a while
Although I haven’t been on game threads in a while
"If you're a Yankee fan, or if you're not a Yankee fan - you have to admit, we're winners." -Paul O'Neill
by Chris McKeown on Jul 9, 2010 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions
yea we've been doing "I blame (insert player)" instead a bit more.
"I'm looking at 600 as first base. I want to run right through it and use it as a platform and a spring board for more to come"- Alex Rodriguez
ahhh I see
I’ll be on the thread tonight for sure
"If you're a Yankee fan, or if you're not a Yankee fan - you have to admit, we're winners." -Paul O'Neill
by Chris McKeown on Jul 9, 2010 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Fuck this, we should have done this in the off season. Seattle didn’t pay shit to get him from Philly. Now were giving away our best prospect for a half season of the guy and no guarantee to resign him. I’m usually a big fan of Cashman, but it looks like he fucked this up big time.
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
not just our best prospect
one of the best prospects in the game, and probably the best offensive prospect in the game.
"I'm looking at 600 as first base. I want to run right through it and use it as a platform and a spring board for more to come"- Alex Rodriguez
unbelieveable man....
un-friggin-believable.
Bye, Lee :(
by FreeBradshaw on Jul 9, 2010 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I am sure there is more to it
I just keep thinking the brass concluded that Montero is simply not going to be a starting catcher, offense aside there is no room for him. If he doesn’t have the range to play LF, we have 1B locked down for a long time and the Yankees constantly need the DH open for ARod, Jeter, Posada, Tex it just might have been less shortsighted as we suspect. CC/Lee/Andy/AJ/Hughes is a dominant rotation for the next bunch of seasons. Javy could probably be moved for some young talent. I am not saying I agree with the move but I can also see the other side. It all comes down to if the Yankees feel Montero can be a catcher, I just don’t think he can.
by HappyLuckyGoldenDragonNumber1! on Jul 9, 2010 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Montero is not the point.
its the principal of trading for a player they don’t need. That same player can be had in the offseason when/if they do need him.
Bye, Lee :(
I think Montero is the point
If the Yankees think they cannot utilize Montero because he simply doesn’t fit in their long term plans, you are in a position to use him to get Lee now. If you wait till end of the season you will have every other team running up his asking price and basically will be paying a premium to keep him from the Sox and Rays. This only works for me if Lee is willing to sign an extension right now. If not I agree with everything you said. EXCEPT I will never root against the Yankees to lose to Boston in the playoffs. Histrionics aside you should take that one back.
by HappyLuckyGoldenDragonNumber1! on Jul 9, 2010 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Cashman fucked up?
I’m not buying this dramatic position. We are getting Cliff Lee for prospects. Nobody from our lineup, nobody who’s arrival in the Majors is expected this your or next year. This move makes us far and away the title favorites for this year.
I may not agree with it, but this deal is a massive boost for this season at least. So while it may not be the best deal, you can’t say Cashman “fucked up” unless Montero becomes and MVP candidate.
what i wanna know though
is why we didnt get Halladay?
Couldnt we have gotten him for the same package last year?
Maybe we couldn't have
I’m pretty sure all the rumors I heard included Monetero AND Hughes or Joba.
no, they wanted Hughes/Joba AND Montero I think
"We're only going to score 17 points?" - Tom Brady
"Well played, Mauer." - Guy from PS3 commercials
He "fucked up"
In that he didn’t get full value for Montero. Halfway through the season the price should have dropped. Instead Cashman lost value on Montero and is paying waaaay more than Seattle did to obtain him over the winter. Like I said below i’m happy to have Lee but not happy with how it went down.
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
by CasanovaWong on Jul 9, 2010 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions
What would you say full Montero value gets us?
Something better than an All-Star and Cy Young candidate? Perhaps Pujols with Carpenter thrown in for filler? We are getting Cliff freaking Lee for Montero…I’d say that is about the best we could hope for.
Getting Cliff Lee at the beginning of the year. Instead of for three months.
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
by CasanovaWong on Jul 9, 2010 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Damn it.
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
by CasanovaWong on Jul 9, 2010 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions
If you don't like it, don't celebrate our WS victory this October
Especially not any of Lee’s starts. You give up the right to celebrate a 2010 World Series victory in return for being able to say I told you so when we lose the World Series in 2012 with a shitty catcher behind the plate.
Which we won't have
because Cervelli is at least a good defensive and average offensive catcher, and we have other top catching prospects too.
I think the Yankees
Are higher on Romine as a starting catcher than Montero
by HappyLuckyGoldenDragonNumber1! on Jul 9, 2010 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Ummm, did I say I didn’t want Cliff Lee? No. I said we should have done this over thew winter so we’d have him for the whole year. This was not good leveraging of assets. Max value from Montero would have been to trade him right after he finished killing AA, before he scuffled in Scranton and lost a little value. Maximizing value would be to have Cliff Lee for the whole season.
I’m thrilled we could be getting Lee but not thrilled with the manner in which we acquired him.
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
by CasanovaWong on Jul 9, 2010 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions
BOOM. Logic.
"I am a man of great mental power." ~Alfonso Soriano
by Captain_Mick on Jul 9, 2010 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions
holy shit...are you using...reasoning?
"We're only going to score 17 points?" - Tom Brady
"Well played, Mauer." - Guy from PS3 commercials
Montero, as good as he is, is just a prospect
and an underperforming one at that. Lee is the best pitcher in the league right now and although we might have acquired him in the offseason, we greatly increased our chances of winning the WS. We are trading Montero, who may be a future All-Star, for a World Series victory. It’s not a bad deal.
you do know that
A rotation of: CC, Lee, AJ, Andy, Hughes can LOSE the WS while
A rotation of: CC, AJ, Andy, Vazquez, Hughes can WIN the WS?
How does this guarantee us a WS? The first rotation is obviously better, but we haven’t won anything yet. Let’s not be the Miami Heat here…
"We're only going to score 17 points?" - Tom Brady
"Well played, Mauer." - Guy from PS3 commercials
I am saying our chances of winning went from 50% to 90%
And that makes a hell of a lot of difference.
So we might as well not even watch the rest of the regular season
if there is a 90% chance to win the WS
I don't understand sometimes...
Even with Lee I won’t assume postseason.
"We're only going to score 17 points?" - Tom Brady
"Well played, Mauer." - Guy from PS3 commercials
if only she was Theo in disguise, then it would mean something
"We're only going to score 17 points?" - Tom Brady
"Well played, Mauer." - Guy from PS3 commercials
It wasn't 50% before and it sure as hell isn't 90% now
Cliff Lee took us from the best team in baseball to the best team in baseball by a lot. However, everyone has bad games.
What if he blows up twice in the ALCS? What if their starters kill our offense? Don’t assume anything.
"We're only going to score 17 points?" - Tom Brady
"Well played, Mauer." - Guy from PS3 commercials
What if Montero turns out to be garbage? What if he gets hit by a bus?
I’m not concerned with what-ifs. I do know that Cliff Lee went 4-0 with a 1.56 ERA last year in the postseason
What if he turns into the next Pujols
and we dont win the WS and Lee leaves and signs with the Bosux?
Our chances went from 85% to 90%
Bye, Lee :(
by FreeBradshaw on Jul 9, 2010 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
couldn't have mattered much.
Bye, Lee :(
by FreeBradshaw on Jul 9, 2010 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions
AccuScore is about as reliable as that world cup octopus
"We're only going to score 17 points?" - Tom Brady
"Well played, Mauer." - Guy from PS3 commercials
But does the Octopus know baseball?
"We're only going to score 17 points?" - Tom Brady
"Well played, Mauer." - Guy from PS3 commercials
if Sabathia is healthy
would they even bother with a 4th?
"Bochy said there was nothing wrong with Buster Posey. He thought Eli Whiteside had a better chance of scoring on a gapper...Bochy said he might have had Whiteside try to steal second"
"What do I want you to do? What are you doing in the National League?"- John McGraw
"117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"- carp (paraphrased)
by natteringnabob on Jul 9, 2010 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions
no, no they wouldn't, I'm just not sure who would be in the pen yet
"We're only going to score 17 points?" - Tom Brady
"Well played, Mauer." - Guy from PS3 commercials
and of course
irrelevant until they get there, and the rotation matters a lot for that. Just sayin’ they have plenty to win playoff series as is.
"Bochy said there was nothing wrong with Buster Posey. He thought Eli Whiteside had a better chance of scoring on a gapper...Bochy said he might have had Whiteside try to steal second"
"What do I want you to do? What are you doing in the National League?"- John McGraw
"117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"- carp (paraphrased)
by natteringnabob on Jul 9, 2010 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
logic has no place
the offseason might as well be never
Bye, Lee :(
by FreeBradshaw on Jul 9, 2010 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Not sure he lost that much value
I think everyone expected him to cool down in AAA as I am assuming most of his work has been to become a better catcher as opposed to living in the cage
by HappyLuckyGoldenDragonNumber1! on Jul 9, 2010 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions
They didn't re-sign him because it would be a "f*** you" to Mo and Jeter due to their "no negotiating during the season" policy
but really there’s no reason to believe that he’ll leave. He wants to win. Best chance to win and get paid is on the Yankees.
That said, I’m not happy about this either.
"We're only going to score 17 points?" - Tom Brady
"Well played, Mauer." - Guy from PS3 commercials
Only because
they had acquired Doc, which is the reason the Phillies got less in return from the M’s.
I don’t agree with the deal, but at least are dealing from a propsect pool from a postiion of strength, not weakness.
His mother has a tattoo that reads, "Son".
Sharks have a week dedicated to HIM.
"It doesn't take more than one person, to talk to a woman.
Stay thirsty my friends."
by Great Gatsby on Jul 9, 2010 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
no talks of contract extension
if we dont keep him for at least 3-5 years then def a waste of a trade
yea i would go with 3
how many age defying players can we have
Lee was a late bloomer and shouldn't decline until he is well into his 30s
I would be comfortable with giving him 5 years, but I wouldn’t mind if they only gave him 3, either.
i wouldnt really like
a rotation with old CC, old AJ, and old Lee
AJ will be pretty old but we only have CC signed through what, 35?
And we’ll have Lee signed through 34 or 35 as well? Plenty of pitchers have done well in their mid 30s.
I never agree with giving away long term contracts to a pitcher
Mussina is the only one, out of ALL the long term deals the Yankees gave out, that ended up working.
3 years is as high as I go. Maybe options for a 4th and 5th.
"I'm looking at 600 as first base. I want to run right through it and use it as a platform and a spring board for more to come"- Alex Rodriguez
The guy has been
bounced around for the last couple of years, will take 5 years and 100 Mill!
His mother has a tattoo that reads, "Son".
Sharks have a week dedicated to HIM.
"It doesn't take more than one person, to talk to a woman.
Stay thirsty my friends."
by Great Gatsby on Jul 9, 2010 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
If you
can give an enigma like A.J a five year deal, you sure as hell can give Lee one!
His mother has a tattoo that reads, "Son".
Sharks have a week dedicated to HIM.
"It doesn't take more than one person, to talk to a woman.
Stay thirsty my friends."
by Great Gatsby on Jul 9, 2010 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Apparently they won't talk with him until after the season
Because they won’t talk to Rivera or Jeter until then, either.
"If you're a Yankee fan, or if you're not a Yankee fan - you have to admit, we're winners." -Paul O'Neill
by Chris McKeown on Jul 9, 2010 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I hope they don't get an answer before the game starts
anything, ANYTHING to stop this trade.
"I'm looking at 600 as first base. I want to run right through it and use it as a platform and a spring board for more to come"- Alex Rodriguez
its not so bad
plus we may be able to get jesus montero back when his contract is up
Let's be honest
Cliff Lee IS Cliff Lee… this is basically dirty.
"If you're a Yankee fan, or if you're not a Yankee fan - you have to admit, we're winners." -Paul O'Neill
I love how everyone is whining because we are getting perhaps the best pitcher in the game
For prospects. yes, great prospects, but prospects nontheless. An established All-Stat and Cy Young candidate…for prospects.
its the idea we could've kept the prospects AND gotten Lee.
cake and eat it too.
Bye, Lee :(
by FreeBradshaw on Jul 9, 2010 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, true. I keep forgetting this
"If you're a Yankee fan, or if you're not a Yankee fan - you have to admit, we're winners." -Paul O'Neill
by Chris McKeown on Jul 9, 2010 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions
You both
are forgetting the Twinkies, so there is a fallacy in the that logic.
His mother has a tattoo that reads, "Son".
Sharks have a week dedicated to HIM.
"It doesn't take more than one person, to talk to a woman.
Stay thirsty my friends."
by Great Gatsby on Jul 9, 2010 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
wouldn't bother me if they get him at all.
Bye, Lee :(
by FreeBradshaw on Jul 9, 2010 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
That's my point
we can’t say we could have got him and kept prospects, because the Twins
were the frontrunners to land him, until the last 24 hrs., and they have resources NOW for an extension too!
His mother has a tattoo that reads, "Son".
Sharks have a week dedicated to HIM.
"It doesn't take more than one person, to talk to a woman.
Stay thirsty my friends."
by Great Gatsby on Jul 9, 2010 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
wouldn't really bother me if they extended him either...
I dunno where they’d get the extra $20mill/year, but that’s a good thing if the Twinkies are gonna start spending.
Bye, Lee :(
by FreeBradshaw on Jul 9, 2010 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
New ballpark
the Twins got shit in the Homerdome, Vikings controlled most of the inhouse revenues there, concessions, etc,
His mother has a tattoo that reads, "Son".
Sharks have a week dedicated to HIM.
"It doesn't take more than one person, to talk to a woman.
Stay thirsty my friends."
by Great Gatsby on Jul 9, 2010 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions
and lets not forget they gotta play the games too
Bye, Lee :(
by FreeBradshaw on Jul 9, 2010 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Montero has to turn it around too
Remember the hype Wieters got? And he’s what… an average MLB catcher?
Wieters has him by about 3 years
Bye, Lee :(
by FreeBradshaw on Jul 9, 2010 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd rather take the chance on Montero
we’re getting Lee anyway.
Rather have Montero on the team with Lee, then just Lee alone.
Bye, Lee :(
by FreeBradshaw on Jul 9, 2010 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Right but I'm only talking about this season
I’m saying that the next 3 months, this Cliff Lee rental which may deliver us another championship, could be worth more than Montero. A championship is worth more than any prospect not named Pujols. If we win, it will most likely turn out to have been a good deal. If not, it can only be vindicated if Montero is truly a bust.
We wouldn't be getting Lee this season
And thus he couldn’t help us win a World Series.
don't need em to help us win the WS
at all.
Bye, Lee :(
by FreeBradshaw on Jul 9, 2010 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe we don't NEED him
but he’ll definitely help. And did we NEED Montero?
"He wasn't an astronaut, he was a tv comedian! And he was just using space travel as a metaphor for beating his wife!"
at worst
would rather trade Montero for a need.
And that’s really not the point…we don’t need a SS on the Yanks now, but there’s nothing wrong with getting some SS prospects isn’t there?
Bye, Lee :(
+a bazillion
Easy point people can’t seem to grasp.
"I am a man of great mental power." ~Alfonso Soriano
by Captain_Mick on Jul 9, 2010 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions
And this is where I agree with you fully
Unless
A: Yankees office decided Montero is NOT a catcher and had no idea what to do with him
AND
B: Lee is willing to sign a long term deal
by HappyLuckyGoldenDragonNumber1! on Jul 9, 2010 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions
You have to give some to receive some
This trade will be worth it
"If you're a Yankee fan, or if you're not a Yankee fan - you have to admit, we're winners." -Paul O'Neill
by Chris McKeown on Jul 9, 2010 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions
It's about winning now though
"If you're a Yankee fan, or if you're not a Yankee fan - you have to admit, we're winners." -Paul O'Neill
by Chris McKeown on Jul 9, 2010 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions
My point on the other post was that i felt Montero was a good trade chip yes
but i didnt think SP was the best place to use him, when we could save him for a more glaring need later, ESPECIALLY if we cant lock up Lee with an extension.
Let's not get ahead of ourselves
There’s still about 77 games to play
"If you're a Yankee fan, or if you're not a Yankee fan - you have to admit, we're winners." -Paul O'Neill
by Chris McKeown on Jul 9, 2010 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't trade
best propsect for a middle reliever or a bat off the bat off the bench, who would you trade him for, that’s right somebody of Lee’s ilk.
His mother has a tattoo that reads, "Son".
Sharks have a week dedicated to HIM.
"It doesn't take more than one person, to talk to a woman.
Stay thirsty my friends."
Imagine the complaining about the Yankees
when this falls through. We’ll never hear the end of “the Yankees just buy their players” shit after this.
"I'm looking at 600 as first base. I want to run right through it and use it as a platform and a spring board for more to come"- Alex Rodriguez
if we get rid of Javy
for Werth, I doubt it’s reducing their payroll. How much does Werth make?
"I'm looking at 600 as first base. I want to run right through it and use it as a platform and a spring board for more to come"- Alex Rodriguez
So, 8+7 is 15
15 minus 11 is 4. So they’d be taking on 4 million if that comes through as well.
"I'm looking at 600 as first base. I want to run right through it and use it as a platform and a spring board for more to come"- Alex Rodriguez
unless he DHs
but thats a waste unless they throw in NJ
or DFA him
"I'm looking at 600 as first base. I want to run right through it and use it as a platform and a spring board for more to come"- Alex Rodriguez
appearing in the role of Marcus Thames...
Jayson Werth!
"Bochy said there was nothing wrong with Buster Posey. He thought Eli Whiteside had a better chance of scoring on a gapper...Bochy said he might have had Whiteside try to steal second"
"What do I want you to do? What are you doing in the National League?"- John McGraw
"117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"- carp (paraphrased)
by natteringnabob on Jul 9, 2010 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions
If the other teams had the money
They would do the same thing…
"If you're a Yankee fan, or if you're not a Yankee fan - you have to admit, we're winners." -Paul O'Neill
by Chris McKeown on Jul 9, 2010 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions
It's a trade, not a signing
And fuck anyone who says otherwise. We gave up our best prospect. There’s nothing unfair about it.
They would be stupid
You are not “buying” a player when you are giving up one of the best prospects
by HappyLuckyGoldenDragonNumber1! on Jul 9, 2010 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions
If Lee is re-signed
via this trade, the Yanks don’t lose draft pick/picks, right? If they sign him in the offseason they might. Not much of a consolation prize, but maybe that’s part of the analysis.
Of course if they sign a Type A they lose the pick anyway so if that is the plan hopefully it accounts for that too.
"Bochy said there was nothing wrong with Buster Posey. He thought Eli Whiteside had a better chance of scoring on a gapper...Bochy said he might have had Whiteside try to steal second"
"What do I want you to do? What are you doing in the National League?"- John McGraw
"117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"- carp (paraphrased)
I don't think they'd lose a pick
because if they sign him they would be signing one of their own players. I think they only lose a pick if they sign a Type A or B Free Agent from another team.
"I'm looking at 600 as first base. I want to run right through it and use it as a platform and a spring board for more to come"- Alex Rodriguez
again
as long as they don’t sign a Type A in the offseason.
"Bochy said there was nothing wrong with Buster Posey. He thought Eli Whiteside had a better chance of scoring on a gapper...Bochy said he might have had Whiteside try to steal second"
"What do I want you to do? What are you doing in the National League?"- John McGraw
"117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"- carp (paraphrased)
by natteringnabob on Jul 9, 2010 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
they won't
they’ll be focused on resigning their players. They won’t have any money for another player.
"I'm looking at 600 as first base. I want to run right through it and use it as a platform and a spring board for more to come"- Alex Rodriguez
they'd have plenty
if Rivera and Jeter and Vazquez all sign elsewhere and they get six draft picks!
/not happening
"Bochy said there was nothing wrong with Buster Posey. He thought Eli Whiteside had a better chance of scoring on a gapper...Bochy said he might have had Whiteside try to steal second"
"What do I want you to do? What are you doing in the National League?"- John McGraw
"117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"- carp (paraphrased)
by natteringnabob on Jul 9, 2010 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions
yea we will we need someone to replace pettitte
because our rotation will be CC/AJ/Lee/Hughes/Pettitte?
hes gonna retire eventually
according to ESPN.com
The Yankees will not lose their first round pick
by BlackandGoldSSgt on Jul 9, 2010 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions
LEBRON LEBRON LEBRON
"If you're a Yankee fan, or if you're not a Yankee fan - you have to admit, we're winners." -Paul O'Neill
possibly trading
Jonathan Sanchez for Corey Hart. If any of you want to feel better, think about that.
"Bochy said there was nothing wrong with Buster Posey. He thought Eli Whiteside had a better chance of scoring on a gapper...Bochy said he might have had Whiteside try to steal second"
"What do I want you to do? What are you doing in the National League?"- John McGraw
"117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"- carp (paraphrased)
by natteringnabob on Jul 9, 2010 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions
why would that matter?
"Bochy said there was nothing wrong with Buster Posey. He thought Eli Whiteside had a better chance of scoring on a gapper...Bochy said he might have had Whiteside try to steal second"
"What do I want you to do? What are you doing in the National League?"- John McGraw
"117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"- carp (paraphrased)
by natteringnabob on Jul 9, 2010 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
there was a 4-game showcase
featuring him looking an awful lot like Pat Burrell, who they already have kicking balls around in the OF.
"Bochy said there was nothing wrong with Buster Posey. He thought Eli Whiteside had a better chance of scoring on a gapper...Bochy said he might have had Whiteside try to steal second"
"What do I want you to do? What are you doing in the National League?"- John McGraw
"117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"- carp (paraphrased)
by natteringnabob on Jul 9, 2010 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
montero for sanchez!
a modest proposal
"Bochy said there was nothing wrong with Buster Posey. He thought Eli Whiteside had a better chance of scoring on a gapper...Bochy said he might have had Whiteside try to steal second"
"What do I want you to do? What are you doing in the National League?"- John McGraw
"117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"- carp (paraphrased)
by natteringnabob on Jul 9, 2010 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Have you been watching?
Check out the numbers, and Sanchez is the Giants equivalent of A.J.
His mother has a tattoo that reads, "Son".
Sharks have a week dedicated to HIM.
"It doesn't take more than one person, to talk to a woman.
Stay thirsty my friends."
11:20am: The Mariners will obtain Montero and Adams plus another prospect, according Bob Nightengale of USA Today (via Twitter).
"If you're a Yankee fan, or if you're not a Yankee fan - you have to admit, we're winners." -Paul O'Neill
a Player to be Named Later, perhaps?
"I'm looking at 600 as first base. I want to run right through it and use it as a platform and a spring board for more to come"- Alex Rodriguez
Chan Ho Park!
"Bochy said there was nothing wrong with Buster Posey. He thought Eli Whiteside had a better chance of scoring on a gapper...Bochy said he might have had Whiteside try to steal second"
"What do I want you to do? What are you doing in the National League?"- John McGraw
"117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"- carp (paraphrased)
by natteringnabob on Jul 9, 2010 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
and
a closet Yankee fan appparently
His mother has a tattoo that reads, "Son".
Sharks have a week dedicated to HIM.
"It doesn't take more than one person, to talk to a woman.
Stay thirsty my friends."
Austin Romine
"I'm looking at 600 as first base. I want to run right through it and use it as a platform and a spring board for more to come"- Alex Rodriguez
Phillies Reaction
“PHiLLiESGAL6 wrote:
hi to my yankee peeps. Sorry, but i’m coming on this message board as a person that is feeling down at this moment. The yanks are in first place, and will probably be there for a while… do the yankees REALLY need cliff lee? This team has acquired 3 really good players last year in CC, Mark, and AJ.. They helped win this franchise their 27th championship. The only reason i see the yanks making this deal is because they don’t want anyone else having him (which is TOTALLY understandable). They don’t need cliff and they know it.”
Well,if i remember correctly,the Phillies….uh…had him. And we do need Lee,who wouldn’t? And if we can get a good hitter for Javy,why not?
I don’t really like Werth(doesn’t he look like he’s on a Geico Caveman hunger strike?)
but if he can produce with the short porch,i’ll take it.
Montero is a man-beast, and I always hate giving up prospects,but I think CC and Cliff would feed off each other. I can’t wait.
TheAddisfaction
Haters gonna hate man
"If you're a Yankee fan, or if you're not a Yankee fan - you have to admit, we're winners." -Paul O'Neill
by Chris McKeown on Jul 9, 2010 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions
That doesn’t really appear to be hating.
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
by CasanovaWong on Jul 9, 2010 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
you know its wrong
when a Philly fan is speaking the truth
Bye, Lee :(
by FreeBradshaw on Jul 9, 2010 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Let's see
wouldn’t trade Drabek at midseason to get Halladay, but they did include him in the winter to get Halladay. So now they traded propsects for both Lee and Halladay, nice job by Ruben Amaro, Jr…Fighin Phils aren’t going to have me shed a tear for them.
His mother has a tattoo that reads, "Son".
Sharks have a week dedicated to HIM.
"It doesn't take more than one person, to talk to a woman.
Stay thirsty my friends."
And the final benefit of this trade hasn't even been mentioned yet.
ESPN and everyone else will immediately shut up about LeBron and go back to talking about the Yankees.
Incredibly unlikely
I bet the NFL could fold and the top headline would still be about Lebron, with Favre taking page 2.
Favre? who is that?
"If you're a Yankee fan, or if you're not a Yankee fan - you have to admit, we're winners." -Paul O'Neill
by Chris McKeown on Jul 9, 2010 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
some geriatric quarterback
"We're only going to score 17 points?" - Tom Brady
"Well played, Mauer." - Guy from PS3 commercials
ESPN - How does this deal benefit the Red Sox?
more at 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 1, and a special feature from 2-10
by Monotonousblob on Jul 9, 2010 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Endless Sox Programming Network
"I am a man of great mental power." ~Alfonso Soriano
by Captain_Mick on Jul 9, 2010 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Peter Gammons is gonna have a HAAAA'T attack
"If you're a Yankee fan, or if you're not a Yankee fan - you have to admit, we're winners." -Paul O'Neill
by Chris McKeown on Jul 9, 2010 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Trade
People keep saying this is a good deal because we’re getting a Cy Young Candidate for a prospect who’s not even in the majors yet. But that’s not what this is.
This is a half season rental of Lee for this first 7 years of Montero’s career (plus whatever else is in the offering).
Unless Montero flops, there is no way that the Yankees get value out of this deal in the long run and it isn’t particularly close. The Organization is mortgaging its future for a better rotation for a partial season. Even if Montero doesn’t have a role on the team, he’s worth more in a different trade.
by metric on Jul 9, 2010 12:36 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I already said plainly that it was 3 months of Lee vs. Montero's career
Does anyone know the marginal value of a WS victory? Multiply it by the increase in our World Series chances and there you go.
I'm going to go with yes
Only because, to the Red Sox, a World Series is a very valuable. Otherwise their small minded fans will lose faith in the “Nation.” Pitching is more valuable than hitting. If they keep Hanley then they are going into the 2007 postseason with a rotation consisting of Wakefield and Schilling (both 40 years old), Dice-K, and possibly a 23 year old Jon Lester. Hanley can’t carry a team through the postseason.
yeah, I was just curious
personally I think it was completely even, maybe the most even trade of all time
A Guess
Well, say it’s 40million to Win the WS, 30 for ALCS victory and 15 for ALDS victory. (Those numbers are probably high). This is assuming the Yankees are making the playoffs no matter what.
Without Lee
ALDS 65%
ALCS 35%
WS 20%
With Lee:
70%
40%
25%
That gets you to an extra 2 million. The problem is, a player like Montero (a Top 10 hitter prospect) on average provides a team with 25 million in surplus value. It’d be difficult for Lee to create that in half a season, even with the extra playoff money.
A pitcher like Lee in the postseason has a bigger impact than that
Remember, these are 5 or 7 games series and we’re talking about a guy who was 4-0 with a 1.56 in the playoffs last year. Instead of 2 starts by CC, 2 starts by AJ, 1 start by Andy, and 1 start by Hughes we get 2 starts by CC, 2 starts by Lee, 1 start by AJ, and 1 start by Andy with the additional value of Hughes as a shut-down guy in the bullpen. So we trade 1 AJ start and 1 Hughes starts for 2 Lee starts and Hughes in the pen. That’s huge.
And Montero has still done nothing at the major league level and isn’t playing too well at Triple A either. Until he gets to the majors and gives us a reason to regret it, we have the upper hand.
its cuz the Yanks are scared the big bad Rays will get him
ooo…the “rays”…
or maybe the Rangers…oh no…or the Red Sox might get him!
Bye, Lee :(
by FreeBradshaw on Jul 9, 2010 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
The Blue Jays are winning the division
"We're only going to score 17 points?" - Tom Brady
"Well played, Mauer." - Guy from PS3 commercials
Just remember
If the deal goes through you said you will root against the Yankees all season
by HappyLuckyGoldenDragonNumber1! on Jul 9, 2010 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
now hold on, we're not doomed for the future
Montero probably isn’t going to be a catcher, probably a 1B or a DH, two posistions that are already taken.
We have a catcher that appears to be more viable as a catcher in Romine and we have Cervelli. Catcher is fine.
We’re fine this season and we’ll be fine in the future.
Only reason people like me are pissed is that we coulda kept Jesus and signed Lee next season.
"We're only going to score 17 points?" - Tom Brady
"Well played, Mauer." - Guy from PS3 commercials
Offseason signing
No, of course this doesn’t doom the team. The point is that Montero is good and this trade isn’t getting full value out of him, whether that’s playing for us, or being a trade chip.
You are close but not 100% right
This is a deal for an extra half-season of Lee, thus making us far and away title favorites, for the first 7 years of Montero’s career. It isn’t a rental because I don’t think this hurts him signing with us.
Or look at it this way, the best we could hope for from Montero is that he gives us a terrific shot at the title. He’s able to do that right now…as a 20-year-old AAA player!
True
I think the Yankees were going to have a good shot at signing him anyway though. Meaning all he does is give a little boost in a single year. If a better trade was done, he could have provided more overall value.
I’m not upset that he’s being traded, just that it wasn’t a better deal. This just looks like the Yankees are going to get screwed in the long run.
If he fizzles out...
Well, then Cashman looks like a genius. If I was a betting man though, I would say he’ll have at least an average career at 1st base, and even that is worth more to most teams than a single half season of Lee.
The Yankees are not one of those teams, though
And if we trade Montero as an average first baseman what will we get back? A couple mid level prospects who may or may not pan out?
Little boost?
I know Javy Vazquez has been good lately, but Lee >>>>>> Vazquez in the regular season and has proven to be simply dominant in the postseason. This is more than a little boost, it would give us unquestionably the best rotation in baseball.
Little
Yeah, Lee is much better than Vazquez, but even if he makes it 20% more likely that we win the particular games he’s playing in (which a vast over statement of the actual boost), that doesn’t actually change our championship outlooks that much.
And how much will Montero really be worth if he ends up as a good hitter that does nothing but DH?
The Yankees have a better idea of Montero’s future than we do. If they think he can’t stick at catcher, it’s probably true. We know that catchers like Posada and Piazza that hit well have had their value decreased by poor fielding, even with catcher defensive metrics as bad as they are. Assuming Montero’s bat ends up being that good (which is a big assumption), if his fielding is subpar he possibly ends up as a DH and is worth almost nothing to the Yankees because we won’t have room for him. Also, while Montero’s position may be at a premium, we still have Romine et. al. on the farm system.
Worth
I doubt he was ever going to play for the Yankees for very long. If he’s not a catcher, he is so much more valuable to a team that has space for him. But that’s what this is about. It feels like we could have gotten more out of him if we shopped him to other teams rather than simply offering him up for the first good player to hit the market this year.
I just don't think that Montero could have brought us more value than a half season of Cliff Lee
Lee is a 4.0 WAR pitcher so far. If he replicates that for us down the stretch, that’s 4 wins or $18 million already. You could make an argument that a marginal win is worth less to the Yankees than to other teams because they’re already in first place, but the Rays are only 2 games behind and the Red Sox are only 5 games out. That’s not even counting his playoff value.
Trade Value
I don’t think you can safely project him to duplicate his historic first half. He’s on pace for the highest single season K/BB ratio ever and seeing as how FIP is largely predicated on that ratio, his WAR eats that up. Lets put that down to a still phenomenal 3 wins over the second half. That’s 13.5 m. Subtract the 4 that he’ll make and you get to about $10 m surplus. If you accept Wang’s studies that show that the average top 10 hitter prospect will give $25 surplus until free agency, then it looks like the Mariners are up about $15 or 3 Wins in value over the length of the contracts.
Montero was universally looked at as a top 10 prospect going into the year, and that’s even with everyone except the Yankees acknowledging that he wasn’t a catcher. Many rankings explicitly mentioned that he was placed as a 1B not a catcher.
You’re right about the marginal win values and I think that may give a boost to Lee’s value, but most sites list the Yankees with a 80-90% change of making the playoffs. That’s well into the decreasing marginal value range. I haven’t done the math with his potential added value in the playoffs (getting to subsequent rounds) but I don’t think that could make up the nearly $15 million gap shown by the straightforward analysis.
Is Montero still a top 10 hitter prospect at this point?
We don’t have all the information, but if the Yankees still saw him as a guarantee to turn into Miguel Cabrera they wouldn’t be doing this. We have to give them a little credit.
No, you're right.
I’m working off of the information I have from the off season and obviously the Yankees have so much more knowledge about all aspects of this that my analysis is essentially just for fun. To be fair though, in his Kevin Goldstein’s Top 11 prospects in the minors article, he says, referring to Montero, “Few scouts I’ve talked to have lowered their scouting scores in any way.”
I guarantee
you if this deal gets done, they will be talking to Lee’s agent to set “parameters” of what it
will take to get an extension done, even it it’s not “done” until after season. The Yankees are not into the rental business, with an elite pitcher such as Lee.
His mother has a tattoo that reads, "Son".
Sharks have a week dedicated to HIM.
"It doesn't take more than one person, to talk to a woman.
Stay thirsty my friends."
I have calculated that Lee improves the chances of a championship from 43% to 97%. Therefore this deal is a success.
My calculations entailed thinking of two numbers, one higher than the other.
"I am a man of great mental power." ~Alfonso Soriano
I thought more along the lines of .000001% to 99.999999%
"We're only going to score 17 points?" - Tom Brady
"Well played, Mauer." - Guy from PS3 commercials
You are correct
My calculations were in error. I just thought of these two numbers instead.
"I am a man of great mental power." ~Alfonso Soriano
by Captain_Mick on Jul 9, 2010 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, keep complaining about the deal
Sorry, but this is 100% victory for the Yankees unless:
1. Montero steps on a big league field and lives up to his potential, and
2. We lose the World Series
Unless both of those things happen, Cashman made a good move. Montero is worth nothing so far. Prospects are just that – prospects.
Incorrect
Montero has value, either as an on-field player or as a tradeable commodity. You gave up the entirety of that value for three months of Cliff Lee. Lee marginally improves the chances at another title, but I am near convinced that that marginal improvement will not in the end equal the value embodied in Montero. And we are still no guarantee to win anything.
"I am a man of great mental power." ~Alfonso Soriano
The next three months of Lee are worth $16 million on their own, not even counting his playoff value
How much do you really think Montero is worth at DH or first base with good bat? There are more than a dozen guys like that.
$16 mil + playoffs isn't really that much
Remember, we’re talking about 3+ months of Lee vs. multiple years of Montero. If they trade for Lee last offseason, now we’re talking. Or if they shop around Montero this offseason for a stud or for multiple pieces, again we’re looking at a potential good deal. The problem isn’t moving Montero, the problem is specifically moving Montero for three months of anybody, to play a position of strength (the rotation). This is almost the way to assure that trading Montero delivers the LEAST value.
"I am a man of great mental power." ~Alfonso Soriano
Many people are against trading Montero at all
And although you acknowledge that he needs to be traded, there’s no point in saying we should have traded him last offseason. Last offseason we thought that Vazquez was going to give us an unstoppable rotation. We also thought that the biggest hole the team had was Gardner starting in left. Imagine if we had traded Montero for a left fielder. Gardner would have been on the bench for the whole season while we gave up our best prospect for a guy who probably wouldn’t have been any better than Gardner has been so far. We can’t go back in time and it’s silly to worry about what we could have done last offseason.
If we wait and deal Montero later, he could lower his value by putting a full season of suckiness under his belt. He could go from a top 5 prospect to a top 50 prospect. It’s all hypothetical but I honestly don’t see us getting more for Montero than we did here.
Fine, forget last offseason. But future trade value?
I realize there are no sure things, but Montero has raked as an underage hitter at every level, and will likely continue and improve upon his recent hot streak in AAA. Everyone has him as a top-10 hitting prospect, which is not just a RESULT of his value but CONTRIBUTES to it – in the same way that hype can boost stock value. He’s talented, and people KNOW he’s talented, so he’ll continue to maintain value for a year or two even if he doesn’t destroy AAA pitching the way he destroyed AA pitching.
The other part of the equation, like I said earlier, is Lee’s value going forward. Montero could be a lower-tier 1B for a few years and match that value. If he catches at all, forget it. Do a comparison of players from past years and see what a guy would have to do over a couple years in value to match what we might get out of Lee for a few months. It’s really not a stretch.
"I am a man of great mental power." ~Alfonso Soriano
As a die hard Yanks fan
We really don’t need the guy.
I love the Nets...too bad they don't love me...
The vast majority of us are die-hards
Some are haters.. some love the wagon. Anyway, it’s obvious that they don’t NEED Cliff Lee. However, he’s an extremely valuable commodity and improves the rotation even more. Nobody wants to face Sabathia, Lee, Burnett, Pettitte in the playoffs. For the postseason, it’s likely that Hughes will be in the bullpen and Javier Vazquez would be as well (if he isn’t traded by then).
"If you're a Yankee fan, or if you're not a Yankee fan - you have to admit, we're winners." -Paul O'Neill
by Chris McKeown on Jul 9, 2010 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Montero and Adams
will not doom the Yankees. Yankees are dealing with a position of strength and depth i.e. they have Romine , Corban Joseph , Ed Nunez , sanchez , murphy in those positions to fill the void. While it’s never good to rent a pitcher and pay a premium price of your best hitting prospect. if Montero is projected as a bat and fringe catcher, we can always go get a bat on the market this year or next.
Lee is coming, he is awesome and he gives us a better chance to win another WS.
lol
Why is your fav team SanFran?
"If you're a Yankee fan, or if you're not a Yankee fan - you have to admit, we're winners." -Paul O'Neill
by Chris McKeown on Jul 9, 2010 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Badabing
"If you're a Yankee fan, or if you're not a Yankee fan - you have to admit, we're winners." -Paul O'Neill
by Chris McKeown on Jul 9, 2010 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
why are you gonna ban him? what he do?
Join the Lacrosse community at theprolaxblog.blogspot.com
Talk about Boston sports at http://www.bestbostonsports.com/
"That place was for diehard sports fans. I only follow my team when they're in the playoffs" - Homer Simpson
by bestbostonsports on Jul 9, 2010 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
no one online right now has the authority anyway
"We're only going to score 17 points?" - Tom Brady
"Well played, Mauer." - Guy from PS3 commercials
lol it's a joke
"If you're a Yankee fan, or if you're not a Yankee fan - you have to admit, we're winners." -Paul O'Neill
by Chris McKeown on Jul 9, 2010 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Will people stop with the wagoning?
Nothing in his post said band wagon. If anything I can say you are on Bradshaw’s band wagon. Monkey see monkey do.
by HappyLuckyGoldenDragonNumber1! on Jul 9, 2010 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions
That's a no no
read community guidelines on PA!
His mother has a tattoo that reads, "Son".
Sharks have a week dedicated to HIM.
"It doesn't take more than one person, to talk to a woman.
Stay thirsty my friends."
lol wait yeah why are you here?
"If you're a Yankee fan, or if you're not a Yankee fan - you have to admit, we're winners." -Paul O'Neill
by Chris McKeown on Jul 9, 2010 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
me sad :(
Join the Lacrosse community at theprolaxblog.blogspot.com
Talk about Boston sports at http://www.bestbostonsports.com/
"That place was for diehard sports fans. I only follow my team when they're in the playoffs" - Homer Simpson
by bestbostonsports on Jul 9, 2010 12:51 PM EDT reply actions
I am assuming
Juan Miranda /Jorge Vazquez , one of them or both will serve as our DH options barring any more trades.
Working on his chip shot or putting?
"If you're a Yankee fan, or if you're not a Yankee fan - you have to admit, we're winners." -Paul O'Neill
by Chris McKeown on Jul 9, 2010 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Nick Johnson
the absolute darling of about 95% of McCovey Chron in the offseason… sorry the Yanks ended up paying his greens fees.
"Bochy said there was nothing wrong with Buster Posey. He thought Eli Whiteside had a better chance of scoring on a gapper...Bochy said he might have had Whiteside try to steal second"
"What do I want you to do? What are you doing in the National League?"- John McGraw
"117 elements, and still no Stanfurdium"- carp (paraphrased)
by natteringnabob on Jul 9, 2010 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Have to be healthy
to play golf too, what a joke
His mother has a tattoo that reads, "Son".
Sharks have a week dedicated to HIM.
"It doesn't take more than one person, to talk to a woman.
Stay thirsty my friends."
jorge Vazquez
El Chato raked in the Mexican league and is doing well at AAA. he doesn’t walk at all but looks like a run producer. might be better option than ironglove Thames.
He also
had Posada catching until 42 as well?
His mother has a tattoo that reads, "Son".
Sharks have a week dedicated to HIM.
"It doesn't take more than one person, to talk to a woman.
Stay thirsty my friends."
+1
"If you're a Yankee fan, or if you're not a Yankee fan - you have to admit, we're winners." -Paul O'Neill
by Chris McKeown on Jul 9, 2010 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions
12:12pm: The sides have some things to work through, but a deal remains 'likely' according to a source who spoke to Jon Heyman of SI.com (Twitter link).
"If you're a Yankee fan, or if you're not a Yankee fan - you have to admit, we're winners." -Paul O'Neill
In regards to Lee's value for the next 3 months
Please read this excellent article on the marginal value of a win. Of particular interest is the graph of the marginal value of an additional win for high-revenue teams. The author makes an argument that it is profitable for high revenue teams to purchase wins up until they are at 96 wins. However, I would argue that in our current situation where we are on pace for 103 wins and are still only 2 games ahead of the Rays and 5 ahead of the Red Sox, the graph should be shifted to the right by several wins. Thus it is beneficial for the Yankees to purchase additional wins as they have with this trade.
Good Article
I like it. I agree that pre season, those are probably close to the marks that teams should be shooting for. During the season though, the targets will shift with each win or loss that separates you from your rivals.
We are 5 games ahead of loosing the Wild Card. Right now, the Yankees should buy until the dollar they spend is likely to return less than a dollar of profit from all playoff related things. I don’t really know where that line is, but since the mark is 4 games worse than the sox over less than half a season, there’s a chance that they’re already at that point with the team they have.
Wow, I miss one night and I miss everything!
YankeeIntel comes back
and now THIS?! I’m kind of shocked.
Intel came back last night?
"If you're a Yankee fan, or if you're not a Yankee fan - you have to admit, we're winners." -Paul O'Neill
by Chris McKeown on Jul 9, 2010 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
ahh I see
"If you're a Yankee fan, or if you're not a Yankee fan - you have to admit, we're winners." -Paul O'Neill
by Chris McKeown on Jul 9, 2010 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions
I'll have to go read the game thread
"If you're a Yankee fan, or if you're not a Yankee fan - you have to admit, we're winners." -Paul O'Neill
by Chris McKeown on Jul 9, 2010 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Ban for mentioning LeBron
………..wait
by Jedi Master A-Rod on Jul 9, 2010 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Who is this Lebron we speak of?
"If you're a Yankee fan, or if you're not a Yankee fan - you have to admit, we're winners." -Paul O'Neill
by Chris McKeown on Jul 9, 2010 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions
The heat wave is over and now it's storming in NY
Cervelli is displeased with this Lee nonsense
by Jedi Master A-Rod on Jul 9, 2010 1:33 PM EDT reply actions
Yankees sign Chad Tracey, YES!!!!!!!!
"If you're a Yankee fan, or if you're not a Yankee fan - you have to admit, we're winners." -Paul O'Neill
he is like Eric Hinske
except he has no power, can’t play of , and not as good of average hitter
other than that, they are kinda of same
Sounds awesome!
"If you're a Yankee fan, or if you're not a Yankee fan - you have to admit, we're winners." -Paul O'Neill
by Chris McKeown on Jul 9, 2010 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions
That the
former D-Back?
His mother has a tattoo that reads, "Son".
Sharks have a week dedicated to HIM.
"It doesn't take more than one person, to talk to a woman.
Stay thirsty my friends."
Was he
in the minors?
His mother has a tattoo that reads, "Son".
Sharks have a week dedicated to HIM.
"It doesn't take more than one person, to talk to a woman.
Stay thirsty my friends."
How about Hank Blalock off the bench?
Rays just released him today
"If you're a Yankee fan, or if you're not a Yankee fan - you have to admit, we're winners." -Paul O'Neill
Eh, there's a reason he's been cut loose twice this year.
That’s what he was in Tampa to do. And he didn’t/
Did you know Joe Morgan thinks Cano will win a batting title one day?
Pass on him
Aybar was getting at bats instead of him. I swear Maddon besides having Crawford and Longo batting 2nd & 3rd, throws names in a hat, here is the rest of the batting order tonight, boys!
His mother has a tattoo that reads, "Son".
Sharks have a week dedicated to HIM.
"It doesn't take more than one person, to talk to a woman.
Stay thirsty my friends."
Good manager
just doesn’t play by teh book, actually a bit refreshing
His mother has a tattoo that reads, "Son".
Sharks have a week dedicated to HIM.
"It doesn't take more than one person, to talk to a woman.
Stay thirsty my friends."
Lol, doesn’t play by teh book. Joe Maddon makes so many pitching changes, Girardi would be ashamed. If there was an Overmanaging Olympics, Joe Maddon would be America.
Questions or thoughts? Email me at duggan2423(at)gmail(dot)com
Your right
he would get crucified around here, the other night against BlowSox, has first and third, tries a squeeze play. I still think he gets the most outta that team though.
His mother has a tattoo that reads, "Son".
Sharks have a week dedicated to HIM.
"It doesn't take more than one person, to talk to a woman.
Stay thirsty my friends."
Montero and Adams…. C mon I just don’t think we need him for that price
Since the face been revealed the game got real
Bye, Jesus. I’m sorry we’re going to trade you “cuz we’re the Yankees.”
Questions or thoughts? Email me at duggan2423(at)gmail(dot)com
from 'da Bronx
"If you're a Yankee fan, or if you're not a Yankee fan - you have to admit, we're winners." -Paul O'Neill
by Chris McKeown on Jul 9, 2010 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Seriously...
I don’t know why they can’t give the kid a chance. Instead they’re going to deal him for a player they don’t even need? Yes Lee is one of the best pitchers in baseball, but if they really want to, they can get him in the offseason. This trade is unnecessary and actually makes me a little sick to be a Yankee fan. This is pure gluttony.
Also now there is NO excuse if the Yanks don’t win the World Series. That’s a lottttttt of pressure.
Did you know Joe Morgan thinks Cano will win a batting title one day?
by Andrew GM on Jul 9, 2010 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This is why (posted earlier)...
That’s what I said above ^^, more than one reason at play here….The Twinkies NOW have the resources to sign him long term, besides the fact they might not want him to pitch against them twice in a short series. Forget the Rays, always make noise, never make a big splash.for them a 3 month rental, already going to lose Crawford and .199 Pena.
(Above was on previous thread)
His mother has a tattoo that reads, "Son".
Sharks have a week dedicated to HIM.
"It doesn't take more than one person, to talk to a woman.
Stay thirsty my friends."
This is becoming a tad ridiculous
"If you're a Yankee fan, or if you're not a Yankee fan - you have to admit, we're winners." -Paul O'Neill
by Chris McKeown on Jul 9, 2010 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions
McAllister may be going too:
http://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/18135832928
If it’s Montero and McAllister it could turn out to be a pretty bad trade.
Oh WOW, if its Jesus and McAllister for a rental of Lee, I will be inconsolable.
Questions or thoughts? Email me at duggan2423(at)gmail(dot)com
Dumb, dumb, dumb.
Why. Cashman? There is no need…
Did you know Joe Morgan thinks Cano will win a batting title one day?
I have to think this is being driven in part by a desire to keep him away from Tampa Bay, Minnesota, or Texas. Not saying I disagree whether or not this is ultimately a wise move, but I really think it’s partly keepaway.
by Yankee Frankee on Jul 9, 2010 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
If Lee so much as surrenders a single run
DFA
"If you're a Yankee fan, or if you're not a Yankee fan - you have to admit, we're winners." -Paul O'Neill
At least wait until tomorrow to consider this
Once we light Lee up tonight hopefully we won’t want him. The last start is only one that matters right?
by Jedi Master A-Rod on Jul 9, 2010 1:53 PM EDT reply actions
I don't want him now
So nothing he does or doesn’t do tonight is going to change my mind
by Jedi Master A-Rod on Jul 9, 2010 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Hah
if they are for real getting him, can they at least get the deal to go through before we have to face him tonight? Sigh.
If the trade does go through today, what would be the earliest that Lee could start for NY—tomorrow night’s game? (Saturday)
The Yankees wouldn’t have him start against the Mariners. So not until after the break.
"He wasn't an astronaut, he was a tv comedian! And he was just using space travel as a metaphor for beating his wife!"
But if he doesn’t start against the Mariners—and misses tonight’s scheduled start against NY—isn’t that a longer-than-desirable layoff, not to have him pitch again until after the ASG?
by Yankee Frankee on Jul 9, 2010 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, it would be a long layoff.
But I don’t see any other way. I know they won’t have him pitch against the M’s.
"He wasn't an astronaut, he was a tv comedian! And he was just using space travel as a metaphor for beating his wife!"
I’ve got a good idea, let’s gut the farm system and get rid of one of the best prospects in Yankees history, for a rental of a 32 year old starting pitcher who’s going to sign an albatross of an extension! And you know what the kicker is, our current 5 starting pitchers are in the top 5 rotations in the game, so we won’t even get any marginal wins!
But, hey, he’s a “Cy Young type pitcher” and is available! Trade for Lee!
Questions or thoughts? Email me at duggan2423(at)gmail(dot)com
If he's one of the best prospects...
…why isn’t he ready to play in the Majors with the Yanks? Why aren’t the Yanks taking him more seriously?
I’m personally on the fence about this entire story.
Bringing Absurdity to New Heights!
Prospects are like omelets: you need to let 'em cook
Or you catch salmonella.
"I am a man of great mental power." ~Alfonso Soriano
Wasn’t Arod like 18 when he entered the Majors? I don’t think you should use age to make a point. :P
But I understand where y’all are coming from. I just am afraid of the way this will look from a PR standpoint. Not like the Yanks ever care…
Bringing Absurdity to New Heights!
A-Rod was a once-in-a-generation prospect
Plus the Mariners sucked then so why not give him a chance? Completely different situation. His first starting season was when he was 21 anyway
Did you know Joe Morgan thinks Cano will win a batting title one day?
Montero is young for AAA
Age makes a difference developmentally.
"I am a man of great mental power." ~Alfonso Soriano
The Yankees are that rebounding guy
What, she’s available now? Better give her a call and see what I can get….
by Jedi Master A-Rod on Jul 9, 2010 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions
That's A-Rod's job
he’s got aa pretty good handle on that, LOL!
His mother has a tattoo that reads, "Son".
Sharks have a week dedicated to HIM.
"It doesn't take more than one person, to talk to a woman.
Stay thirsty my friends."
It is a position
of strength for the Yankess, and is the reason the Phils traded him to recoup propsects,
after trading prospects TWICE for both Lee and Halladay. I am not saying, I agree just explaining the entire scenario.
His mother has a tattoo that reads, "Son".
Sharks have a week dedicated to HIM.
"It doesn't take more than one person, to talk to a woman.
Stay thirsty my friends."
At this point I think Cashman is just trolling all the other teams
If we back out and the Twins sell the farm I will deliver him a medal personally.
God I hope so.
Then all criticism of him today would be gone and he’d be hailed as a genius. CASHMAN ARE YOU READING?
Did you know Joe Morgan thinks Cano will win a batting title one day?
Lol, dude, 90% of Yankees fans (not PSA fans) will go, “he got Lee! ZOMG that’s awesome” and have never heard of McAllister or Montero.
No matter the price, if Cashdaddy brings home Lee he’ll get praised.
Questions or thoughts? Email me at duggan2423(at)gmail(dot)com
Until Lee “can’t handle the pressure of NY”
Questions or thoughts? Email me at duggan2423(at)gmail(dot)com
Bad deal or not
Lee is a stud and a clutch pitcher
by HappyLuckyGoldenDragonNumber1! on Jul 9, 2010 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Won't be a rental
Yanks are not in the rental business for an elite pitcher, probably be on the phone with his agent as soon as deal is consumated to set parameters.
(Even it it doesn’t get “done” until offseason)…At this point I think Lee would be tired of bouncing around as well.
His mother has a tattoo that reads, "Son".
Sharks have a week dedicated to HIM.
"It doesn't take more than one person, to talk to a woman.
Stay thirsty my friends."
Well yeah if they trade for him he'd probably sign an extension
But not till after the season and it’d be another huge, unnecessary trade.
Did you know Joe Morgan thinks Cano will win a batting title one day?
Read my comment
above ^, more than one thing at play here, people have to understand
the entire scenario. (About Twins above).
His mother has a tattoo that reads, "Son".
Sharks have a week dedicated to HIM.
"It doesn't take more than one person, to talk to a woman.
Stay thirsty my friends."
You'll have to drag up a link to that comment
There are too many other ones here to simply say “read above^”
Did you know Joe Morgan thinks Cano will win a batting title one day?
After your comment
that starts with “Seriously”, not far above from here.
His mother has a tattoo that reads, "Son".
Sharks have a week dedicated to HIM.
"It doesn't take more than one person, to talk to a woman.
Stay thirsty my friends."
I'm starting to wonder about this
Before it was believable if objectionable (to me). But McAllister now too…? I’m starting to get suspicious
"I am a man of great mental power." ~Alfonso Soriano
McCallister is an acceptable loss
if someone like Brandon League is thrown in as well.
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
Has there been any implication that we’d get anyone but Lee?
Questions or thoughts? Email me at duggan2423(at)gmail(dot)com
Don't like this trade.
I mean, I’ll take Cliff Lee, but really is there any need for a starting pitcher on this team? No. So why trade a top 25 prospect for one that can be gotten next season?
And we probably could’ve gotten Halladay/Cliff at the start of the season on the same deal…
Only logical explanation I can think of is that Montero really isn’t what we thought, and we’re trying to keep that a secret. I don’t like the idea of trading away Javy, he’s been awesome since May…
"Is this the real life? Is this just fantasy?"
by Gelatin on Jul 9, 2010 2:06 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
MaCallister too?
are you freaking kidding me?
"I'm looking at 600 as first base. I want to run right through it and use it as a platform and a spring board for more to come"- Alex Rodriguez
I didn't know anyone on here liked it to begin with from what I'm reading...
Bringing Absurdity to New Heights!
yeah
ZMac is akin to Jake Westbrook, a decent mid-rotation starter.
Dave Adams was never great before this year, but is having a tremendous year in AA: .309/.393/.507.
Montero is the only A prospect.
I think we can survive that
did we forget IPK so quickly.
His mother has a tattoo that reads, "Son".
Sharks have a week dedicated to HIM.
"It doesn't take more than one person, to talk to a woman.
Stay thirsty my friends."
I hated it from the start
but MaCallister is a good pitcher. Now I hate it more.
If they’re going to include Zmac, then take Montero out and put a lesser catching prospect in there. I’d actually be fine trading Austin Romine or Gary Sanchez. But I love Montero- he’s not someone I ever want to see leave this team. When was the last time the Yankees had a position player who is as hyped as Montero.
I’m watching Mike Francesa right now- he’s interviewing Jon Heyman. I heard it’s likely, around 50-50, but no deal is in place yet and they’re in no rush.
Please, PLEASE don’t happen!
"I'm looking at 600 as first base. I want to run right through it and use it as a platform and a spring board for more to come"- Alex Rodriguez
But Montero isn't on the team...
At the end of the day, he’s still a prospect…
Bringing Absurdity to New Heights!
And at the end of the day, Lee is still a rental.
This is gluttony.
Did you know Joe Morgan thinks Cano will win a batting title one day?
No, this is New York
They gonna do what New York do. Y’all should know this by now, whether it’s right or wrong.
Bringing Absurdity to New Heights!
They've never done anything THIS bad
I thought there was a limit. They have 5 terrific starting pitchers already. There is no “Help Wanted” sign out in front of Yankee Stadium. They don’t need him at all.
Did you know Joe Morgan thinks Cano will win a batting title one day?
exactly
this isn’t 2008, where the Yankees had Mike Mussina, and then nobody. Andy Pettitte had lost it. They were counting on Darrel Rasner, Sidney Ponson, and Carl Pavano to try and carry them to the postseason!
In 2008 they needed pitching. I would have agreed with it then. Now, they have 5 excellent starting pitchers. Lee is a great pitcher, but he’s not needed.
"I'm looking at 600 as first base. I want to run right through it and use it as a platform and a spring board for more to come"- Alex Rodriguez
yeah
it’s not like Pettitte, Hughes and CC aren’t having great years (and Javy and AJ are respectable). the Yanks are acting desperate when they dont need to.
They need a bullpen arm
and maybe a DH. Thats it. They don’t need an ace. They have 3 pitchers pitching like one.
"I'm looking at 600 as first base. I want to run right through it and use it as a platform and a spring board for more to come"- Alex Rodriguez
I'm not referring to 2008, just in general
I’m personally not as outraged by it as everyone else. It’s their schtick. That’s why everyone hates on the Yanks. “They do what they do” and this is “what they do”.
I’m still on the fence. Call me obnoxious, but I want Matsui back over having Cliff Lee. Hell, I still want Wang back…
Bringing Absurdity to New Heights!
It doesn't make it okay
Acquiring “names” and paying “top dollar” for contracts didn’t work so hot from 2001-2008.
And yes wanting Matsui & Wang back is dumb.
Did you know Joe Morgan thinks Cano will win a batting title one day?
This is overkill beyond overkill though.
This is worse than ANYTHING they’ve ever done before.
Did you know Joe Morgan thinks Cano will win a batting title one day?
Question
Not saying I agree with the deal. But aren’t some of you who are screaming the same folks who said the AJax – Granderson deal was brilliant because to get a high ceiling player for a prospect is genius since prospects aren’t guaranteed to do a damn thing?
by HappyLuckyGoldenDragonNumber1! on Jul 9, 2010 2:11 PM EDT reply actions
A bit different.
Lee is a rental, as far as anyone can tell, and we aren’t in need of a SP.
With the Ajax-Granderson deal we knew we were getting Granderson for a couple years AND we actually needed an Outfielder.
Plus, Ajax was projected to be kind of like Granderson, unlike Montero who we all thought was going to be bigger and better.
Who knows though.
"Is this the real life? Is this just fantasy?"
by Gelatin on Jul 9, 2010 2:14 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
During a trade is the team allowed to speak to the player?
I am assuming Cashman would at least have a verbal agreement from Lee that if they pull the trigger he would sign a long term. I mean Lee and CC are BFFs
by HappyLuckyGoldenDragonNumber1! on Jul 9, 2010 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I still don't think they should sign him.
Lee’s going to ask for A LOT and he’s not worth CC money.
Did you know Joe Morgan thinks Cano will win a batting title one day?
but
the Yanks refuse to negotiate with living legens like DJ and Mo. why would they give a newbie a long-term deal w/o offering them to the incumbents?
AJax isn't nearly as good as Montero.
Not nearly as hyped and not nearly as good an offensive player.
From what we heard about Ajax, he was an excellent defender, hits for average, has no power and strikes out a ton. He’s a good prospect. But he won’t be a superstar. Montero has a chance to hit like a superstar, and there is no need to give him up! They needed a center fielder when they gave up AJax and they got him. Right now they don’t need a starter.
"I'm looking at 600 as first base. I want to run right through it and use it as a platform and a spring board for more to come"- Alex Rodriguez
Not according to everyone here
Y’all hyped that poor kid up like nobody’s business. I was glad to see him go so I wouldn’t have to hear his name anymore. .
Bringing Absurdity to New Heights!
Montero >>>>>>>>>>> AJax. Lee doesn’t have cheap years under his contract, and doesn’t play a position at which we have a need. And I didn’t say the deal was brilliant because prospects aren’t guaranteed, it was good because we traded AJax at the height of his value for a better player.
Questions or thoughts? Email me at duggan2423(at)gmail(dot)com
thoughts on the deal
1) It obviously makes us better short-term. Lee replacing either Javy or Hughes in the rotation is an upgrade, as good as those guys have been.
2) Losing Montero would hurt, but at least we’re dealing from strength. Also, I don’t get the people saying that we should only trade Montero to fill a need – our big needs now are (a) a Hairston-type to play 3B and SS and hit better than Pena and Russo; (b) an extra outfielder off the bench; and/or © a set-up man. Does it really make sense to trade your best prospect for any of those things, or even all of them?
3) I think the team is best off, short-term, if we keep Javy and send Hughes to the bullpen. But I’d rather trade Javy for prospects and let Hughes keep doing what he’s doing.
by long time listener on Jul 9, 2010 2:17 PM EDT reply actions
oh, also
Lee is going to have all of the leverage in negotiations for an extension. It’s hard for the Yanks to give him one now when they haven’t negotiated with Jeter and Mo, but in the off-season, Lee knows the Yanks don’t want to have given up their best prospect for a rental – even if that rental helps us win the WS.
by long time listener on Jul 9, 2010 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Thank you
somebody else agrees with what I said earlier.
His mother has a tattoo that reads, "Son".
Sharks have a week dedicated to HIM.
"It doesn't take more than one person, to talk to a woman.
Stay thirsty my friends."
That's a good point
We can flip Javy like the Phillies did with Lee and replenish our farm system somewhat.
Yanks wouldn't have leverage in a deal with Vazquez though
Other teams would KNOW that they’re getting Lee and have no open spot in the rotation, so they would not put their best package forward because the Yanks need to unload him/
Did you know Joe Morgan thinks Cano will win a batting title one day?
but multiple teams are going to want him
The Yankees can go with Hughes in the bullpen until the deadline and let teams come to them when July 31 gets closer.
by long time listener on Jul 9, 2010 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah because Hughes to the pen would GREATLY help his development.
Not.
Did you know Joe Morgan thinks Cano will win a batting title one day?
a couple of weeks in the pen isn't going to kill him
It’s not ideal, but if they have to wait a couple of weeks while they chase the best deal for Javy, he’ll be fine.
by long time listener on Jul 9, 2010 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Javy
get moved very soon, so it would be a moot point, because HE is a rental.
His mother has a tattoo that reads, "Son".
Sharks have a week dedicated to HIM.
"It doesn't take more than one person, to talk to a woman.
Stay thirsty my friends."
Or, CC,Lee,Andy,Aj,Javy?
Maybe they had this planned for when they were going to limit Hughes?
"Is this the real life? Is this just fantasy?"
by Gelatin on Jul 9, 2010 2:22 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I'm sure Hughes would be so psyched to move to the pen.... again.
Not.
Did you know Joe Morgan thinks Cano will win a batting title one day?
I'm sure he isn't.
But I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s what they did.
Honestly, I like that better than getting rid of Javy, he’s been awesome since May and I like the idea of the Javy haters being wrong.
"Is this the real life? Is this just fantasy?"
by Gelatin on Jul 9, 2010 2:26 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Not joke
What are you 12?
by HappyLuckyGoldenDragonNumber1! on Jul 9, 2010 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions
It's just as good as saying
/sarcasm
Did you know Joe Morgan thinks Cano will win a batting title one day?
"Guys, should we talk about the World Cup? The final's on this weekend!"
LEBRON SAYS QUIET!
Did you know Joe Morgan thinks Cano will win a batting title one day?
that special last night was a disgrace
It’s been a long time since ESPN has been a serious journalistic entity, but devoting a whole hour of programming to one guy’s free agency makes a mockery of any journalistic pretense they have.
by long time listener on Jul 9, 2010 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
But you watched it
When people stop watching is when ESPN will stop being a joke
"I am a man of great mental power." ~Alfonso Soriano
Bingo
why I didn’t watch it…Found out as I was logging into MLB.TV. What a charade!
His mother has a tattoo that reads, "Son".
Sharks have a week dedicated to HIM.
"It doesn't take more than one person, to talk to a woman.
Stay thirsty my friends."
1:27pm: The Yankees have offered Montero, Adams and a third prospect, according to Jon Heyman of SI.com (Twitter link). It's now up to the Mariners to accept or decline the offer.
"If you're a Yankee fan, or if you're not a Yankee fan - you have to admit, we're winners." -Paul O'Neill
I guess it's time to wait
"If you're a Yankee fan, or if you're not a Yankee fan - you have to admit, we're winners." -Paul O'Neill
by Chris McKeown on Jul 9, 2010 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Same
I almost lept off the wagon yesterday but this kept me on!!
"If you're a Yankee fan, or if you're not a Yankee fan - you have to admit, we're winners." -Paul O'Neill
by Chris McKeown on Jul 9, 2010 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions
out of seattle
We’re hearing rumblings of a 3 p.m. press conference at Safeco Field if all goes well
Really?
"If you're a Yankee fan, or if you're not a Yankee fan - you have to admit, we're winners." -Paul O'Neill
by Chris McKeown on Jul 9, 2010 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Cliff Lee.. DO YOU BITE YOUR FINGERNAILS??!?!?
"If you're a Yankee fan, or if you're not a Yankee fan - you have to admit, we're winners." -Paul O'Neill
by Chris McKeown on Jul 9, 2010 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions
He is scheduled to pitch tonight..
I wonder what team he does it for..
Either he will pitch for the Mariners
Or he sits in pinstripes with CC
by HappyLuckyGoldenDragonNumber1! on Jul 9, 2010 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions
This just in:
ESPN is setting up a 1-hour special called “the Trade” starting at 3 and running till 4.
"Is this the real life? Is this just fantasy?"
by Gelatin on Jul 9, 2010 2:32 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Let's not be foolish
They would ONLY do this for the Bahstonians
"If you're a Yankee fan, or if you're not a Yankee fan - you have to admit, we're winners." -Paul O'Neill
by Chris McKeown on Jul 9, 2010 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Be nice
some of us still live here, lol!
His mother has a tattoo that reads, "Son".
Sharks have a week dedicated to HIM.
"It doesn't take more than one person, to talk to a woman.
Stay thirsty my friends."
If Hughes gets moved back to the pen because of this nonsense, it will be send angry letter (or flaming bag of poop) to Cashman time.
Questions or thoughts? Email me at duggan2423(at)gmail(dot)com
Calm down Mr. Histrionic
You and Bradshaw sound like you are on the verge of throwing gasoline on yourselves and lighting a match.
by HappyLuckyGoldenDragonNumber1! on Jul 9, 2010 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Is it so bad to disagree with a deal?
Did you know Joe Morgan thinks Cano will win a batting title one day?
I disagree with the deal too
But I am not throwing bags of flaming poop like Duggan or wishing the Yankees will lose to Boston in the playoffs.
by HappyLuckyGoldenDragonNumber1! on Jul 9, 2010 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Bradshaw did
Do see the other thread
by HappyLuckyGoldenDragonNumber1! on Jul 9, 2010 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions
don't forget
a Muts fan, Please with the Montero is one of the best prospects in
“Yankee history”, that’s quite a stretch.
His mother has a tattoo that reads, "Son".
Sharks have a week dedicated to HIM.
"It doesn't take more than one person, to talk to a woman.
Stay thirsty my friends."
No one has convinced me that's it's a good or bad deal
And it hasn’t been announced yet. I’m pleading the 5th.
Bringing Absurdity to New Heights!
All it takes..
is one injury to the starting 5 before everyone things this is a great trade.
http://www.pinstripealley.com/2010/7/9/1561439/cliff-lee-jesus-montero-z-mach
Overflow thread
Questions or thoughts? Email me at duggan2423(at)gmail(dot)com
great trade!!
Getting Lee will be a great trade! it will solidify our rotation because it will be safe to assume that Javy will probably be dealt at some point in the near future for a guy in the pen or a utility player.
We do have a few more prospects at the Catcher position, Austine Romine to name one, he has great play calling skills and not to mention he can swing the bat very well, solid offense (.281/.361/.423) …I am sure once posada has hung up his cleats it will be cervelli behind the plate until romine will be called upon to take over
Yankees will not be getting Cliff Lee
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/07/yankees-may-be-close-to-acquiring-cliff-lee.html
Getting Lee for Montero is okay if
We can flip Javy to Philly for Werth.
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