Around the Yankees Galaxy 7/12/2010
The first half is officially over, and there is a lot to be happy about. One thing not to be happy about - the bullpen.
Baseball Reference put up some numbers to show just how bad Joba Chamberlain has been this season. They only considered relievers with 30+ innings, but both David Robertson and Chan Ho Park have both been about as bad and only missed the cutoff by a few innings.
The truth is, the Yankees bullpen has just been flat out goofy this season. Nobody's actual ERA is anywhere near their FIP, but more importantly, the underlying performances - K/BB rates, etc. - suggest that the team's three worst relievers probably aren't as bad as they appear.
Joba has an awful ERA, and he's blown a few games in key spots. At the same time, compared to last season his strikeout and groundball rates and velocity are all up, and his walk, home run, and hit batter rates are way down.
Is he a fundamentally worse pitcher this season? If you're not willing to acknowledge that pitchers sometimes put up poor results (a.k.a. "bad luck") even though their underlying stuff is solid, I'm not sure what other conclusion you can draw. Maybe he lacks clutchiness?
- Ty Kepner points out that it ain't over 'til it's over. As much as I would have liked to see Cliff Lee in pinstripes, we have to remember that Twitter and Google do not constitute binding player transactions. Sometimes deals fall just short, and, unfortunately, sometimes a smart GM will try to involve another team to start a bidding war. You can't cry foul though; David Wells was supposed to pitch for the Diamondbacks in 2002, but somehow, that didn't happen.
- Lohud has a nice collection of quotes about Bob Sheppard from various Yankee figures.
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Joba has had bad luck, whether anyone wants to admit it or not.
THat inning, you had a lazy single by Wilson up the middle, a fielders choice with Ichiro. Then Figgins hits a lazy opposite field single. IBB to Branyan.
And the pitch that Lopez hit was up around his shoulders.
I guess players slumping find their way to have bad things happen. And a pitcher who’s only control is up in the zone, will find bad things happen.
Still think Joba will be fine. The good peripherals are up, the bad down…yea, he’ll turn it around. In the important part of the season too.
Bye, Lee :(
Call it luck
But regardless, he’s got problems. The main thing I see is his fastball has absolutely no movement, none! It’s very hittable, and it appears that Joba knows this and is afraid to throw it when he’s behind in the count. He needs to work on modifying his grip to get a little something out of his fastball. Dr Mo?
I believe your anecdotal observation of his fastball is incorrect.
Using brooks baseball you can check the actual movement of a guys fastball. Here’s Jobas from last game compared to some other guys on the team…
Chamberlain
3.43 inches Horizontal 8.58 Vertical
Sabathia
3.52 H 9.23 V
Hughes
4.61 H 7.98 V
Robertson
1.2 H 8.05 V
Park
6.22 H 4.8 V
Pettitte
1.35 H 9.89 V
As you can see I don’t think you can really classify Jiba’s fastball as “straight” when it’s pretty much in line with everybody else’s.
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
by CasanovaWong on Jul 12, 2010 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Jiba, heh.
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
by CasanovaWong on Jul 12, 2010 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions
The "H" movement
is the least of all of them other than D-Rob (who also is gettin’ his FB hammered) and Pettitte ( I assume you’re not “scoring” his cutter, which he uses more and certainly has a lot more horizontal movement) and is most important. So yes, I think there’s a lack of movement.
Pettitte uses the cutter about half as much as the 4 seams.
And I always thought sink was more important than run on a FB. The bat is longer than it is wide. An extra inch of downward movement means the ball is completely missed. An extra inch to either side means it still hits the bat, just not where the hitter wants it. Both are desirable, but I would think sink is more important. I could be wrong though.
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
by CasanovaWong on Jul 12, 2010 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions
But you may be right
Either way, he doesn’t seem to have any confidence in it. I just think maybe he should spend the remainder of the season either in AAA or used only in low risk situations. Come pennant race time and especially the post season we can’t rely on him.
yea
right into the bat (at least when he’s bad AJ). CHOP too apparently
Bye, Lee :(
by FreeBradshaw on Jul 12, 2010 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Robertson
There’s a mix bag looking at his metrics relative to last year, but one of the really striking things is BABIP – 50 points higher than last year, just like with Joba. Maybe a dual correction is coming for both Joba and Robertson? Which would be sweet.
"I am a man of great mental power." ~Alfonso Soriano
Joba needs to spend the All Star Break
working at a local centaur farm…
by BlackandGoldSSgt on Jul 12, 2010 8:50 AM EDT reply actions
Joba
I think Joba needs to get right mentally and not continue to say “I’ll learn from this.” You reach a point where you need to go out and do it consistently to be the guy they need. Admittedly they’ve moved him around alot in his short career but at the same time Girardi in my mind has been extremely patient, more patient than I would be. The game that was wasted on Saturday is the perfect example and at some point the guys playing behind him are going to lose all confidence in him as well.
Fact is Joba has cost us a couple games
and the only real stat that matters is that the Rays are only 2 games behind, we can’t have our set-up man lose games for us.
Honestly
I think Jobas trying to use more pitches than he can actually throw. Hes trying to throw his curveball for strikes, hes not locating his fastball (which has increased in velocity) Ive seen him try to use a couple of changeups and his slider has been terrible this season. I think the relying on, of the curveball and changeup and steady diet of fastballs has his slider suffering. When Joba came up he threw 2 pitches. Fastball, Slider. Locate the fastball then get them chasing with the slider. Sprinkle in the curveball, catch them by suprise with it. I am gunna use the Jose Lopez bat as an example because I saw that blast coming. The whole inning hes all over the strike zone. Cant throw his curveball for strikes. So Lopez comes up, Joba out of desperation goes to slider. The 1st one is wild. The 2nd one is just awful and then here comes the fastball and while it was located pretty well, everyone in the world knew a fastball was coming and Lopez crushed it.
Its worth noting also, last year after the break Joba was better then he was the whole 1st half, so I am tryin to look it at it glass half full. Robertsons shown some signs of life, Martes been better, Logans been pretty good. I still think Parks gotta go. I don’t trust him AT ALL in any kind of big spot. Hopefully Joba will turn the corner and have a better 2nd half. We need bullpen help though. Any thoughts on Matt Lindstrom?
I don’t think that’s a satisfactory explanation at all.
Relief pitching is so fickle, and relievers throw so few innings, that you’re going to miss a large part of the picture if you’re only considering ERA.
Don’t get me wrong – runs allowed and wins and losses DO matter – but you need to look at how and why those runs are being allowed before you can make reasonably accurate judgments about who’s pitching well and who’s not.
If Joba was truly struggling to throw his pitches well, or struggling to locate them, wouldn’t it be reasonable to think his strikeouts would be down and his walks would be up?
The slider has been by far his best pitch all seaosn.
If you don’t believe me go to fangraphs.
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=2692&position=P#pitchvalues
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
by CasanovaWong on Jul 12, 2010 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions
His first year in the bullpen, I thought Joba was gonna be great. But moving him to a starter and then the bullpen seemed to really screw him up
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by bestbostonsports on Jul 12, 2010 10:36 AM EDT reply actions
Yeah, I think everyone thought he as going to be great, and he still could be.
I’m not confident that his SP days are to blame. Rivera, for instance, used to be a starting pitcher (and it doesn’t seem to have hurt him). Something is clearly off with Joba, and it might be mental. Maybe he has just failed to properly and intelligently incorporate different kinds of pitches into his repertoire. Based on everything I’ve read and seen, his stuff is there but he just can’t execute.
figure out the pen situation asap
joba is supposed to be the link to mo. I believed that before the season started. But halfway through the season, it looks like the bombers are going to have to go out and get some bullpen help. The question is, do we put joba on the trading block? or do we get rid of some other scrubs and bring someone else in to help him out? Joba is obviously a headcase, but chan ho park just plain sucks. We need someone solid in the pen besides rivera. Mike Stanton, where are you now?
Small sample, bad luck, lack of confidence
Both Jaba and DR can throw, both need something to fix their heads just a little. Could be a lucky break, bad call, a week off, a good week, maybe a line-drive off the knee to get them thinking about something different. whatever.
I remember about 10+ years back a young Pettitte was struggling and the NY papers traded him about 4 times. July 31 passed w/o trade, AP was lights out from then on. One little thing like “Pitch well or be traded!”
Jaba or DR should be able to figure it out this summer…or it’s gonna be Hughes to the pen.
by steelerwheeler on Jul 12, 2010 12:28 PM EDT reply actions
Do or do not...there is no try
It’s very clear as you can see it when he is on the mound (If you can’ then look at his numbers). He lacks the confidence in himself, and that can be seriously costly to anyone let alone setup for the closer – or better yet playing for the Yanks with Mo in that spot.
I really thought they were going to do the IBB and then bring in Mo. Of course not…I just had to go make a rum and coke, because either way it went I was going to need the Capt. Seriously though, Joba needs some help and fast. He should go back to two pitches for a bit until he can stand up and have the AP eyes looking down at anyone in that batters box. He needs some winning situations where he can let down a little – say like up by 3 or 4 and not have that exta pressure on him.
However you look at the current situation…They do have the best record right now, and IMO the whole team isn’t all firing at the same time yet. Not a bad place to be, but some breathing room would be nice. The six games coming up against TB the next few weeks will set the stage and put some things into perspective.
I tend to agree...
He Lacks clutchiness…. I like that word. When there is a Tense spot in a ball game, like the 8th inning… and I see him. a feeling comes over me, I feel like Flipping a Coin.
I tend to agree, HindSight is 20/20, when he succeeds, I take a Deep Breath, and when he Fails, I say “I told you so” But all in all… my opinion of him is growing less and less. Some people just have more patience.
When will the Yankees admit they made mistake “handling” him. I mean the Joba Rules were supposed to encourage his effectiviness. Right?
Statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything.
It never changes...
Yankee Intel “googles” Brian Cashman+Yankee bullpen – Year in and year out the only thing that changes is the year on the calendar and Brian Cashman’s follicle count.
The Yankee bullpen – save for Mariano Rivera (Yankee Intel always loves the ironic literary utterance…) – has stunk since John Wetteland was plotting his escape to Texas and Mariano Rivera still had hair and a third pitch.
What’s the answer to a terrible bullpen? Why a 6th starter (Cliff Lee?!?!) of course!
Kyle Farnsworth
Russ Ohlendorf
Jonathan Albaladejo
Sean Henn
Jeff Karstens
Brian Bruney
Dámaso Marté
Mark Melancon
Edwar Ramirez
David Robertson
Joba Chamberlain
….and….
…the…
….list….
goes….
…..on…..
Here’s a suggestion: Trade for FOUR more starters and we’ll have a 9 man rotation with Mariano rounding out the “pen”……
….anyone have the beeper number for Sidney Ponson’s agent….?
"I'm a streaky hitter. I live off my hot streaks. ..."
Mark Teixeira
Wow, thanks for the rant. You clearly missed last season, so I’ll fill you in.
In 2009, we had Brian Bruney, Alfredo Aceves, David Robertson, and Chad Gaudin, all of whom had ERAs below 4, and combined for 19 wins and 24 HLDs (vs 2 losses and 2 blown saves). None of them were at the same level as Rivera, but they also didn’t stink – it was a solid group that got the job done admirably in a lot of tough situations (anybody remember Joba regularly getting yanked after 3 innings?).
The All Star
Break will be great for Joba! He’ll have almost a whole week of uninterrupted eating…. He’ll come back in fine form to do a great Wilbur Wood impersonation.
"I'm a streaky hitter. I live off my hot streaks. ..."
Mark Teixeira
Shadrack, Thinks...
Talking in Third Person is annoying. and Reading this means, I will never get these 10 seconds back. Damn You YI
Statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything.
Yankee Intel
will have the Kei Igawa with a side of Edamame for what ails this bullpen.
At present Mr Igawa is 2-2 with ERA of 5.36
Joba? Glad you asked: 1-4 ERA 5.79
Re: Joba
"From my perspective, we all can have various views," Cashman said. "He's going to be a starter pitching out of the 'pen."
(Well that explains why we have to have another reliever behind him....)
I wasnt saying his slider was his worst pitch
I definetley misconstrued it to sound like that but I really meant to say when he doesn’t have his slider, hes in trouble. I think theres times he still goes out there and pitches like a starter. He throws too many balls, he trys to be to fine. He nibbles and drives up his pitch count. His velocity is thru the roof right now. Hes hit 98 in his last 3 apperances. He has to just go after guys. You get the feeling like hes afraid of contact. You cant be afraid of contact. When he has that 8th inning guy/closer mentality he comes in, he attacks the strike zone and goes right after guys. His 1st half has been very bad. Theres still another half to go though. Lets just hope the break does some good for him. Jeter A-Rod and Tex are startin to hit the ball now, if Joba gets his shit together and becomes a consistent 8th inning guy for Mo. This team will be more of a force to be reckoned with than they already are.
Joe Girardi, while not a favorite of mine, is the manager of the WS Champs
Not one poster here has led a MLB team to a title, so if Joe says Joba will be fine and his 8th inning guy, its good enough for me. I’ll go with Joe and his experience over a bunch of stat guys and guys clamoring for Albaladejo like he is the second coming. Joba has had some bad games, but he is still the best option we have for the 8th inning.
He's no Jerry Manuel.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jul 12, 2010 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions
That's false hustle.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jul 12, 2010 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions
I haven’t seen anybody here claim that Albaladejo is the second coming. However, the Yankees have a lot of ailing relief pitchers, and given that Alby is [arguably] the best closer in AAA right now, it behooves them to give him another shot. It doesn’t have to be as the 8th inning guy – that’s a position you earn in the MLB, not AAA. But maybe, when we’re down 8 to 6 in the 7th inning, we could consider Albaladejo instead of CHoP or whoever else is our journeyman-of-the-day?
AAA is different than the majors
I recall Melancon owning AAA and every time he is brought up, he walks everyone. The Immortal Kei Igawa is the all time wins and Ks leader at SWB, yet everytime he comes up to the big club, he stinks. Some of these guys just arent good enough for the big time. Could Alby be better than CHOP or Gaudin? Sure but not by much. NEWSFLASH…..We have MLB’s best record, why do we have to go and change everything?
Isn’t being the best closer in AAA sort of like being the prettiest girl in fat camp?
by 3460kuri on Jul 12, 2010 7:25 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I’m well aware the the AAA is different from the majors. As is everybody else who has suggested that the Yankees give Alby another shot (both amateurs and pundits alike).
Kei Igawa’s AAA ERA has always been more than 3, sometimes significantly higher. Also, he has never been successful in the MLB. He has the most wins and Ks for SWB (a useless metric anyway) because he’s been down there so long. Also, notice that his stats all have a downward spiral in AAA (he’s getting worse, not better).
Albaladejo by contrast has an ERA hovering around 1 in AAA, and has been reasonably successful in the MLB. Last year was pretty rough, but he put up somewhat respectable numbers his previous two years (brief though they were). Also, notice that his stats all have an upward spiral in AAA (he’s getting better, not worse).
NEWSFLASH…..We have MLB’s best record, why do we have to go and change everything?
Now your argument just went off the rails (and I’m not just talking about your poor attempt at sarcasm). First of all, I never suggested the Yankees change “everything”. I suggested they change one thing. If the Yanks can make an improvement by going to their farm system, then they should do that. In fact, they have already done that on several previous occasions this season. Winn wasn’t working out, now we have Curtis. Well, a lot of people say CHoP isn’t working out – so let’s bring up Alby.
One way or another, Albaladejo is coming up this season. Either it will be soon to replace one of NYY’s lackluster journeyman, or it will on their 40 man in August, or it will be with another team after they’ve traded him.
Also, the Yanks are 2 games up in the division and 5 games up in the wildcard (against a team that’s about to get really healthy really fast). Don’t be overconfident just because “We have MLB’s best record”.
Gah, reply fail again – this should be a response to YankeesJets’s post “AAA is different than the majors” above.
Its not overconfidence
We have the best record despite CC only being able to beat the O’s up until this recent stretch. Javy being awful in April to the point everybody here(not I) wanted him gone, now they all call him magnificent and feel bad for his lack of run support. AJ being god awful for a half of May and all of June. So for the most part, our oldest and youngest starters have carried us along the way.
In the hitting department Tex was having a down year up until July, ARod not hitting as many HRs, Grandy being a disappointment when healthy, a lack of a bench, nothing from NJ, and Posada also missed time.
The Pen has been our biggest weakness but it hasn’t been as god awful as its been made out to be. I really dont care if Albaledejo comes up, I’m not a huge CHOP or Gaudin fan, but he isn’t going to be some kind of savior.
In closing, the Yankees have a better record this year in a tougher division and with a team that isn’t performing close to its capabilities. I think we need to add an arm in the pen and some depth on the bench but I’m not ready to panic like some because Joba isn’t pitching like its 2007. I have no problem bringing up guys like Nova or Alby, but there has to be a reason why they havent been brought up, wouldnt you agree?
I have to say
After 2008 I was screamin it was all Girardis fault and it was a mistake to let Torre go, but I have taken a liking to Girardis managing style. Don’t get me wrong. I think anyone can have a winning record with this team, but the way he handles the bullpen. The way he pays attention to matchups, I’ve really taken to his style of managing but he definetley does tend to overmanage sometimes. With that said, I still like the manager Girardi has become.

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