Regrets on the Granderson deal
by Corley on May 1, 2010 9:41 PM EDT
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PrintNow that Curtis Granderson, only batting .227with 2hrs and 7rbis, was placed on the DL, is it time to start regretting giving up Austin Jackson, Phil Coke and Ian Kennedy. Austin's batting .356 (leading the majors with 37 hits) and has 7rbis, and Coke's 3-0 with 1.93era. The way I see it is that Jackson would've been a fine centerfielder for the Yankees, and Coke would've at least been as good of a lefty as DumbASSo Marte. Maybe its early, what's your guys opinions so far on the deal?
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Austin Jackson is also leading in K's
he’s a singles hitter. No regrets, everybody slumps, including Jackson
Section 203 Row 15 Seat 1
he's going to slow down, he not hitting .365 the whole year
Case and pint Jason Heyward, who started out as the next pujols, hitting like a madman with power too. Now that pitcher figure out that he swings at way too much pitches that are low, his avg has dropped to .240. once pitcher figure out how to pitch t jackson his avg will drop. One of the advantages of being a rookie is that pitchers are unsure how to approach you, so there is a tendency to start fast.
What the hell does Justin Upton have to do with anything?
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
by CasanovaWong on May 2, 2010 12:35 AM EDT up reply actions
What the hell does Justin Upton have to do with anything?
he said jacksons leading in ks, so i upton but hes batting .220something
The Yanks wanted the power
I wish they could’ve kept Godzilla, and not wasted there time Mr. OBP Nick Johnson
good point, but we'll have to wait until the end of the season to see if Matsui's knees don't explode
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Way too early to judge the deal. Jackson is a fluke right now.
LGT's resident moderate Yankee hating fan.
What do you mean? A .530 babip isn't sustainable?
Whaaaaaa?
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
by CasanovaWong on May 2, 2010 12:33 AM EDT up reply actions
When I was your age, television was called books.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
by jscape2000 on May 2, 2010 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
way too early
Sure the early returns aren’t great but it is still way too early to decide on this trade. In fact, we won’t ultimately know how this deal turned out for a couple years.
If
Jackson hits over .300 for the next two season, I’ll eat my hat.
Granderson is signed for awhile, wait and see, the chances of Jackson outpreforming Granderson over the next 3 year stretch is highly doubtful
People are already in "shit my pants and cally cashman sally" mode.
We are like 16-8 and people are freaking out. It’s May 2. They will ALL, yes ALL come around. okay!?
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Granderson is a good trade
I love this trade. Granderson is a star quality player who will play outfield for the Yankees for a long time. He will hit. Can really field. Shakes things up when on base. Yesterdays game, when he got hurt, he almost saved Vazquez with a very good throw home that HIT the cutoff man so Tex could turn it into a 8-3 DP. I was in the Stadium. That was some throw!
Coke’s career will be ordinary, IPK may be a big league starter, AJ is still a question mark. Ask me again in 3 years, but now I like the trade.
"You don't realize how easy this game is until you get up in that broadcasting booth." Mickey
Phil Coke will implode at some point soon
Jackson will regress to the mean.
Granderson will bat around .280, play strong defense, and be a power threat.
Anyone who doubts this deal has the foresight of a goldfish.
Is Diet Coke
starting or relieving? Curious, I heard them mention in ST, he may start…You can’t evaluate a trade for about two years, not less than 2 months.
by Great Gatsby on May 2, 2010 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions
I doubt he bats .280
He cant hit lefties for shit. Personally I was thinking before the injury .260’s, 25-30 homers.
I dont like the move.....
for the fact that we keep giving up young talent for a big name. Granderson is a good ballplayer, I just wish we could develop someone like that instead of trading for them. How many years are they going to get out of Granderson, 5 to 6 years, where as A Jax could be around for over 10. I understand the argument that A Jax is unproven and Granderson is a star, but why cant they take the chance is grooming their own stars like they did with Jeter, Rivera,Posada,Andy and Bernie.
Didnt
Give up Robbie for a superstar or Philthy Phil. I also dont think Grandy could be considered a star. Everyone only looks at his HR’s from last year. BA .249 and 157 hits. Superstars dont get 157 hits or bat .249
I regret it
for the simple fact that Jackson looks like hes going to be a star and Granderson can hit lefties for shit still. Also wheres the home run power he was suppose to show?
"Also wheres the home run power he was suppose to show?"
Spoken like someone who doesn’t know what the f*ck they’re talking about.
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
Are you wondering where Arod's and Tex's is too?
Or just Granderson?
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
All of them
Obviously there going to start hitting them again but I was just saying Granderson hit 2 homers in the first three games and has struggled badly since.
So far
I admit, the trade has sucked. Granderson has played like shit and he’s hurt, and now Jackson may make the All-Star team.
But flash back to 2004. Remember that year? A-Rod started out the season in April hitting around .160. He ended hitting 36 HR that year. And winning 2 MVPs and helping the Yanks win a championship. And he’s still going while Soriano is now an average player. Nobody regrets that trade now.
You can’t judge trades based on the first month of the season. You can’t judge ANYTHING based on the first month. Teixeira and A-Rod have 2 HR each. They are both on pace for about 12 for the season. Now, we all know that isn’t happening and both are going to crack 30 HR easily. It works the other way around too. Austin Jackson isn’t going to hit .365 this season. He’s started out hot. But he’s going to cool down like every player who is hot. And at some point Granderson will heat up. Nobody was regretting the trade when Granderson was hot in the first week.
I say, wait until the end of the season before making this judgement.
It is too early to
judge but I’m inclined to beleive that what Granderson will not improve on what he’s done so far in his career. He’s 28, and after 5 full years you’ve got high power numbers and stolen bases with good defense, but an OBP and strikeout rate that offsets that speed quite a bit. 5 or 6 years into a career a player is what he is and generally does not get better. Are they gonna teach him to hit lefties now? Did Detroit just accept that as a flaw in his game and just concede he was not going to get better against them? I can’t see how a team sees a flaw like that and doesn’t do everything in their power to correct it. So either Detroit tried and wasn’t able to improve on that, or they just did not want to mess with his stroke and left him alone. I’d like to see the Yanks coaches do everything in their power to remedy that, cause that’s NOT A SMALL FLAW for an everyday player.
i dont regret granderson i regret girardi as manager
WHY THE HELL IS GRANDERSON BATTING IN THE BOTTOM OF THE LINEUP AND SLOPPY NICK JOHNSON AT 2ND!!!!? first off that would be a blow to confidence and frustrating. i thought granderson was coming in to be the new johnny damon, but i guess wrong…
who the f- knows?
Anyway, the Yank always knew that Jackson was a good hitter — that’s why he was so highly regarded for so many years, and why so many teams would have been interested in getting him (for a reasonable price). The Yanks wanted someone with some more power, though, after giving up Matsui, and Granderson was a lefty who hit 30 homers last year. It was a gamble, and I’m hoping it works out, but it’s way too early to judge whether it was a good deal or not.
oh yeah...i liek to remind u that Austin jackson prolly wouldn't have hit a hr off papelbum
granderson will pick up, he had a slow start but his talent puts him as one of the best CF. Jackson is playing on an sustain able level. at the end of the season he won’t be hitting .300 i guarntee
sigh...
you people are ignorant to the fact that everybody at every single moment in time can’t be hitting .500
Section 203 Row 15 Seat 1
Some of you people are so ridiculous!
If AJax was doing what he is doing for the Yankees you would be screaming ROY and MVP! But he’s doing it for another team and he’s a fluke and won’t hit for much longer. To quote TBS “Very funny”.
PS He was one of the best Yankee prospects for a reason.
Brett Gardner is another player whose BABIP is currently above average
And my impression of the sentiment around here is that while his play has been great, and bodes well for the rest of the season, very few people actually believe he’s going to finish the season hitting .330-.340. And no one thinks he’s going to continue to one of the Yanks’ best hitters the whole year.
So I don’t think it’s just a home team bias. In all likelihood, if Ajax were still a Yankee, the people who are telling us to let time be the judge of the Granderson trade would respond to the homers’ calls of “A-Jax for MVP!” with the same warning of the possibility of regression.
I’d be crying ROY and regression to the mean at the same time.
The great thing about luck, is that it doesn’t really even out. One incredible month combined with 5 ‘normal’ months makes most career years.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
It's like if you flip a coin 10 times
and all 10 times it comes up heads. That’s very uncommon and unlikely to continue, but the next time you flip the coin, you aren’t more likely to come up with tails.
While AJax and Gardner aren’t likely to continue producing at their current pace, they’re also not more likely to fall of a cliff because they have “over-produced” so far.
I'm Lord Duggan and I approve this message.
absolutely true
I also don’t necessarily think BABIP is just a “luck” stat, it definitely can be influenced by plate approach (see – Ichiro). I do think it’d be better to save the Ajax-Grandy comparisons for much later in the season, however.
It’s all relative to what numbers a player has historically posted.
Derek Jeter has a career .359 BABIP over 10,000 or so plate appearances. So his .368 BABIP this season really isn’t out of the ordinary for him. AJax has a career .361 BABIP in 2,400 plate apperances in the minors, but he has a .527 BABIP so far this season. I’ll tell you, anytime somebody is batting over .500 in any given situation, it’s either a fluke or too small a sample.
The really, really scary thing is, if you use the same strikeout, walk, and extra base hit ratios, and then factor in a BABIP that’s more in line with his minor league numbers, it suggests a batting line for AJax that’s closer to .260/.320/.360.
Some questions about AJax-style hitters:
So, in the early going, A-Jax looks like he’s going to hit for a high average, without much power. Having hit 7 doubles, 2 triples, and a HR, out of 40 total hits, it seems like he is shaping up to be predominantly a singles hitter (go easy on me if I’m way off about that), with an above average BABIP. I’ve made a comparison to Ichiro, though only to emphasize that particular component of his game, they’re not really comparable players, and I haven’t really watched AJax play at all enough to know whether he even approaches his at-bats in a similar way. Annnnnnyway, my main question is this:
My impression has been that most players who put up numbers like AJax’s are successful because they have exceptional bat control, and are good at making contact. Yet AJax sports an extremely high strikeout rate. Is this actually atypical for players of his type, or am I just wrong (I very well might be)? And if it is as odd as I think it is, does that lend credence to the idea that he’s due for a regression?
These might be really dumb questions, but I’ve always thought that hitting singles for average and striking out a lot were sort of mutually exclusive, as in you don’t typically see a player who does both.
Corley and everyone else that is irate about Grandy...
You do realize that we are 16-8. In second by 1.5 games and playing extremely good baseball? And on top two of our three biggest hitting threats (Tex and A-Rod) seemingly have just been going through the motions of playing baseball.
I don’t understand why so many seem to want to bash on Grandy about the early season. I get it, he’s hurt and has underperformed except for the Boston series. A-Jax is still unproven and no one really knows what he’ll be in a few years..
Let's cut through the crap, Vaughn. I only got one thing to say to you: "Strike this mother f*cker out."
but we hadz tha same teamz as last year
everyone we let go is doing good, meaning they’d do good for thez Yankeaz, so that means we’d be undefeatedez.
16-8 is unacceptable. Thez Yankeaz need the entire all star team as their roster. For I did so in MLB 2010
Perhaps they want to bash Cash because despite all of the mitigating sabr stats, Jackson looks like the real deal.
Granderson looks like a guy who hit .240 last year, and Coke has pitched better than anyone in our pen not headed for the Hall of Fame.
The problem with all the stats saying Jackson can’t keep this up is that as he learns and adjusts, he will probably hit some homeruns and will strike out less, and people instinctively understand this.
by designatedquitter on May 3, 2010 3:41 PM EDT reply actions
perhaps they want to bash Cash
because he’s super rich, has an awesome job, and all they get to do all day is work, post on online forums, and if they’re lucky, drink beer, eat potato chips, and play MLB2K10 on their X-Boxes at night.
In other news, counter-factual scenarios are called “counter-factual” because they didn’t actually happen. For all we know, A-Jax in Yankee Stadium could be just as ridiculously unlucky as he’s been lucky so far this year. .230 with a .264 BABIP anyone? The point is we have no idea so early.
Add another 3 for 5
for AJax. Single, Double, Triple. Regrets? Hell yes. If anybody here says no, they’re lying. He’s only 23, plus we would still have Coke. I’ve said it a hundred times, this deal and the Vazquez trade made no sense after coming off a World Series victory. I was taught you don’t mess with a good thing.
The only way you can think AJax is for real is if you legitimately believe that he is a once-in-a-century player who will break the mold and redifine the way we profile hitters.
Because every other player in the entire history of baseball who struck out at this high a rate (27% of plate apperances) and was at the same time an average to above average hitter fit a pretty specific profile: a slow, hulking slugger who hit a lot of home runs. Somebody like Rob Deer, Ryan Howard, Cecil Fielder, etc. Jackson couldn’t be much further from that profile.
Furthermore, I’m having trouble finding many seasons since World War II where anybody posted a BABIP that was over .400. Rod Carew did it in 1977, Ichiro posted a .399 BABIP in 2004 and Andres Galarraga posted the same in 1993. A couple of guys came close, but very few crossed the .400 mark, let alone Jackson’s current .535 clip.
Listen, the game is played on the field, not on stat sheets, and AJax’s statistics thus far, sustainable or not, obviously do count. But it’s foolish to only consider one month when you’re evaluating a player. This type of performance is so far out of line with what Jackson has done in the minors, and his BABIP is so far out of line with what anybody has done ever that there is no way he can keep it up.
If, at some point, AJax reverts to somewhere around his minor league BABIP (which he probably will, by the way) and doesn’t manage to cut his strikeouts or develop a little more power, you’re looking at something like a .260/.320/.360 hitter, one whom nobody is going to regret trading.
Like I said, the only you believe AJax can keep this up is if you believe he’s a once in a millenium player who will redefine the way we profile and evaluate hitters.
I understand the K issue
BUT he is getting on base over 40% of the time and as a player gets more experience he is only going to get better at the plate, not worse. Remember, he hadn’t played in the majors AT ALL before this year, so I think what he has accomplished thus far is pretty remarkable. No, I don’t think he’s going to hit .377 all year, but he could turn out to be a .330 + leadoff hitter. Not bad.
Has it occured to ANYONE here
that Cashman and the Yanks knew what they were giving up when they traded for Granderson?
Sure, AJax is a great player. But the Yanks already have 2 dynamic, fast, singles-hitting line-up starters, one of whom (and in the long run if AJax’s Ks stay up there maybe both) is much more of an on-base threat. They couldn’t have batted him in the 2 slot, because they wanted those high OBP numbers in from of Tex and A-Rod. Drop him lower down, and without those RBI machines behind him, his high average somewhat mitigated.
The Yankees didn’t NEED a high K-rate singles machine batting low in the order. What they did NEED was a veteran outfielder with pop to hit with power in the 7th spot and lead the outfield defense. It’s not just about raw performance, it’s about building a cohesive lineup, and A-Jax’s makeup made him kind of redundant on this team.
by jeeptheheap on May 3, 2010 4:11 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I sure hope you're
not referring to NJ in the 2 hole. He’s the worst 2 hole hitter in the MLB, look it up. His OBP is the worst of all our starters and he leads our team in K’s…Nice try.
april, david. april.
exactly what good are 40 singles going to do if cervelli and winn are up after him every time? think with your brain, not your dumbness organ
Come on.
Not that it matters, he’s not a Yankee and I’m just enjoying the debate, but I do think the order would be adjusted IF AJax was in it. Plus, Cervelli and Winn weren’t even starters when we traded AJax. I’m sure we’d find a place in the lineup for a guy who’s leading the majors in hits and leading the AL in BA. Ya think?
we would
at this point in the season, yeah, we’d be loving AJax. I’m just saying that there were reasons, good reasons for Cashman to construct the lineup the way he did, and the 162 game season will make those reasons pretty clear when AJax comes back to Earth
also sorry for the "dumb" remark
wasn’t calling you dumb. just being all rhetorical
for now
if AJax has a higher OBP than nick johnson at the end of the season, I will bow to your magical powers, because that’s the only way that’s every going to happen
I am
Really he already has, in some unconventional ways. I love the way he works opposing pitchers deep into counts. He was doing it more earlier in the season, before he started to press, but as the hits start to come he should get back to it. Also, he has reminded us all why Miley Cyrus is a terrible thing for the world.
think about it this way
even if you take 9 Ajax’s and put them in a lineup: all .360 hitters that hit pretty much only singles. How many runs are you going to score? No where near as many as you’d think, because it takes MORE than players with high averages to score runs.
don't forget
the actual comparison here is AJax v. Granderson. but the main point is that you wouldn’t put 9 AJax’s in a lineup. Jeter and Gardner are already doing the job AJax would have been expected to do in our lineup
Where to begin, where to begin?
We trade “great players” for lesser players because we have enough “fast, dynamic” players already? OK. Let’s trade Phil Hughes for Mark Hendrickson, because we have enough young, power pitchers on the roster as it is.
Also, the notion that Austin Jackson will be nothing but a “singles hitter” is absurd. Except for Mark McGwire, how many power hitters led the league in homers their rookie season? Most start slowly and build their power numbers through their first five or so seasons. As he learns the league, sees more pitchers’ stuff, and adjusts to the higher level of play, Jackson’s strikeout rate will certainly go down. I think it’s dropped in the last couple of weeks.
I assume, following that logic, that we don’t need Coke, either, because we have enough effective relievers named after soft drinks?
by designatedquitter on May 4, 2010 10:06 AM EDT reply actions
you act like Granderson is not a fast, dynamic player
with something that AJAX hasn’t even shown in the minors…power.
by FreeBradshaw on May 4, 2010 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions
I do like Granderson
but I hope he starts kicking into gear soon. He’s not looking good at all lately. The funny thing about all this debate is that our record is so damn good with Tex, NJ, Grandy and ARod not contributing at all. Where would we be without Cano, Gardner and Jeter? If those guys cool off before the 2-4 start hitting, it could be ugly.
I hear ya..
But then again, our pitching is what winning all these games. I’m more concerned with A-Rod than anyone else. He needs to start hitting, I’m getting sick of him doing nothing at the plate. He’s still one of the best hitters in baseball, he needs to start acting like it. What happened to the guy who Minnesota and LA couldn’t get out in the playoffs last year? He needs to be that guy…and soon. Because Robbie can’t carry us all year long.
Let's cut through the crap, Vaughn. I only got one thing to say to you: "Strike this mother f*cker out."
when was AJax ever expected to be a power hitter?
it’s like because he was a top prospect, you automatically assume he’s going to hit a lot of home runs. That was never his profile.
Define "a lot."
No one expects 40 home runs, but 20 in a few years is not unreasonable. Is “a lot” more than Gardner? More than Damon? Do we not want him if he plays like Gardner but bats .300+,hits 10 home runs, 35 doubles and 6 triples?
by designatedquitter on May 4, 2010 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions
well I mean in your last post you called him a power hitter
and compared him to Mark McGwire, and that’s just not the case. He’ll probably hit more HR’s than Gardner, but that’s not exactly difficult. My understanding was that his absolute ceiling was thought to be possibly around Damon power, which, historically, isn’t all that much. Saying he’s a singles hitter isn’t a rip on him. Ichiro’s a singles hitter. It just means he hits mostly singles.
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