How does the Granderson deal look?
by designatedquitter on Apr 19, 2010 12:25 PM EDT
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PrintI know that we're all thrilled with the player we got in Curtis Granderson, but look at the deal from the Tiger perspective.
All three players they acquired for Granderson played yesterday against the Marinators, whom they beat. Jackson and you- know- who batted 1-2, and Coke pitched in relief. Austin Jackson is hitting .340, starting in center, and picked up his 5th rbi hitting from the leadoff spot. He Who Must Not Be Named (because it sets off long tirades about whose fault it was that he wasn't re-signed), bats second and is hitting .256, but had two hits and two walks. Phil Coke earned his second hold, and is pitching to an ERA of 2.57.
Would the Yankees have been better off handing the centerfield job to Jackson than acquiring Granderson? They would have Coke in the pen instead of Boone Logan or Sergio Mitre, and maybe/ maybe not #18.
This trade may have helped both teams, but if Jackson is the instant star that he is starting out to be, the Yanks may have come off second-best.
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I like Grandy..I think his production will far outweight what he gave up this year and going forward too.
I care not to look at it as what these guys are doing with the other team…good for them. The Tigers still ain’t beating the Yanks..so there.
For AJAX, this probably could be a case of the Yanks not scouting their own system well enough. I don’t think its too much of a stretch to say that if they thought AJAX could come in and start in teh big leagues, that he’s patrolling CF in the Stadium, right now.
I really don’t think they felt he was this close to playing at all….which kinda sucks.
Oh well. Grandy may not be one of “our own” just yet, but unlike Damon..his previous career was harmless…so I’ll live with him on the Yanks and like it.
Running AMOK
too early to tell
Jackson is doing great but we’ll have to see how his whole season pans out, and how he does against more pitching that just the Royals, Indians, and Mariners. Not exactly the top pitching staffs in the AL.
Granderson his doing great against some of the best pitching in the league, in my opinion.
We’ll see at the end of the season, but I wouldn’t be surprised to see Jackson in the running with Heyward for the ROY award.
i meant
in their respective leagues. They’re definitely the two rookies off to the hottest starts in their leagues. Unfortunately, we’ll have to wait at least a few months to see how good any of the rookie pitchers turn out to be.
Thanks,
can you tell me who will win all the other awards and who will make the playoffs and win the Series this fall? That way I won’t have to watch any games.
Sheesh, I hate when people tell others they are wrong about something like a prediction that’s impossible to be right about.
by Leviticus6688 on Apr 20, 2010 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions
This was my post, so I think I get to say what's legal.
I’ll let it go this time, but I hate it when people change the subject.
by designatedquitter on Apr 20, 2010 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I only hate it when, of all discussable topics, discussants digress into discussing what’s discussionable.
Discuss amongst yourselves.
;)
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
Yeah, but
I would have loved to have had AJ in center. Something about having those home-grown-never-been-anything-but-a-Yankee guys, especially in CF.
I hear what your saying,
but there are people who can come over and win over Yankee fans hearts. Tino did it. Ruth was ok.
Crowds are won and lost and won again, but our hearts beat for the diehards.
by Edwantsacracker on Apr 22, 2010 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes, but---
It’s not Granderson vs. Jackson, it’s Granderson vs Jackson + Coke. And even that assumes that the Yanks didn’t take the saved salaries of Jackson and Coke (both league minimum) and use it to keep the Caveman at DH/LF.
by designatedquitter on Apr 19, 2010 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Phil Coke has pitched a total of 7 relief innings and given up 2 ER to the tune of 0.0 WAR so far. In a small sample size, even Cardinals position players terrible relievers can put up that line. Coke is a good pitcher but middle relievers are easy to replace.
The Tigers rolled the dice on AJax being ML-ready and thus far it’s worked out great (good for them). In Granderson, the Yankees are getting exactly what they were expecting in a known commodity.
Entering the season to defend a world series championship, the security of having Curtis Granderson and what he brings to the table vastly outweighs running out an unknown rookie CF and a decent reliever.
by Scooby Snacks on Apr 19, 2010 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions
I also think it is too early to tell.
I think Jackson is going to be a real good player but not a star. At first I was pissed at the deal but I think Granderson is going to have a great season and everything will work out.
Something tell me Ajax isn't going to hit .340 all season.
And he won’t maintain that purdy .389 OBP either. The 15-2 K:BB ratio does not tell me he is an “instant star”
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
*15:4
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
by CasanovaWong on Apr 19, 2010 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I like it
firstly, let me say that the Granderson signing did not really have that big an effect on the fact that Johnny Damon wasn’t resigned. The Nick Johnson signing (another reason to hate Nick Johnson!) was the bigger reason he didn’t come back.
I’d have loved to still have Austin Jackson. I was and is a big fan of his. I love his athleticism, I love how young he is and I love that he would have been homegrown.
But Granderson is a better player. He has more pop. More of an ability to get extra base hits. I don’t think that AJAX will end up hitting .340 this year. He and Granderson in my opinion will have similar batting averages. But Granderson is a great defender with better CF instincts. He can steal bases. He has a lot more pop. And also, Granderson has played in the postseason and in the World Series. That experience will help the Yankees in October, where as we won’t know how Jackson would have performed in the postseason.
I was against the trade at first, but I’ve grown to like it the more I learned about Granderson. I’d love to have him in center field for years to come. And remember, if AJAX turns out to be a star, the Yanks will always be a top contender to sign him when he hits free agency.
I will NOT miss Phil Coke, I can tell you that.
Granderson hit 226 /.288 /.491 in the 2006 playoffs.
Including a stellar .095/.136/.143. in the World Series I hope he forgets whatever he “learned” that year.
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
by CasanovaWong on Apr 19, 2010 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Is that really necessary?
Granderson played 13 games in the 2006 postseason, which is about the same number of games that most teams have played this year.
13 games is so tiny a sample it isn’t even worth talking about averages.
Which is evidence as to why his “playoff experience” shouldn’t be used in a comparison with Ajax.
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
by CasanovaWong on Apr 19, 2010 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I think you overvalue AJax
The jury is still out, 13 games this season notwithstanding, but I think he’ll be lucky if he ever matches Curtis Granderson in terms of performance.
For the Yankees, that made the deal a no-brainer.
AJax
is off to a great start.
His BABIP is .486.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
I'm not advocating for the notion that this was a terrible trade.
I’m only asking if the Yankees really got the better of it. And it is too early to say how good a player Jackson will become. On the other hand, the Tigers got two useful players out of it. Jackson appears to have a tremendous amount of upside. His 15ks to 4bb ratio is something that he will almost certainly improve upon as he learns the strike zone and acquires some patience. It might take 2 or 3 years for him to become a star, or maybe he’ll just become Melky Cabrera. Curtis Granderson is not likely to get any better than he is, although he might develop a Yankee Stadium pull to increase his power numbers.
by designatedquitter on Apr 19, 2010 2:37 PM EDT reply actions
Granderson not likely to get better?
Let me start by saying I was not in favor of the trade. Coke was usefull and Melky could hit lefties.
I’ve posted elsewhere how Granderson is mashing but doesn’t thrive in ‘veteran’ hitter attributes. He’s not moving runners or driving in enough considering there are guys in front of him off to fantastic starts. However, His speed, D, and power are proven. With some time learning how to handle those tougher at-bats, this guy has the potential to be an MVP. So does AJax I suppose, but, Grandy is closer and he’s entering the prime of his career.
It’s the Yankee way, we can afford to sell unproven talent for proven commodities. AJax might end up being a star in NY anyhow.
by steelerwheeler on Apr 20, 2010 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Simple
Younger, faster, better range, better arm, more power than Damon = win. If he can hit lefties at a decent clip than = super win. AJax is a good kid but who knows what his future will be, you pretty much know what you are getting with Grandy plus his personality is perfect for NYC. Just keep hitting them lefties and let those sliders go!
by HappyLuckyGoldenDragonNumber1! on Apr 19, 2010 2:42 PM EDT reply actions
Above comment
For those of you who seem to read it wrong is about Curtis Granderson. My comment about Ajax was about how his future is an unknown quantity.
That is all.
by HappyLuckyGoldenDragonNumber1! on Apr 19, 2010 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Seriously.
What’s next? 1868 – who got the better deal in the sale of Alaska to the US by Russia the year before?
Actually, that was pretty clearly always a steal for the US, especially because it ended Russia’s colonial interest in North America. The only criticism was that the purchase happened in the middle of Reconstruction, when the US didn’t exactly have a lot of spare dollars to throw around.
But Russia needed the money, and having just been shelacked by the Brits in the Crimean, figured that in the next war, the British citizens of Canada would seize Alaska easily.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
What I'm saying is that in 1868, most people weren't thinking it was a US steal.
And quite frankly, I’d say most people looked at it as a steal for Russia, if anyone, in 1868.
It was not universally hailed as a great purchase at that time. It was called “Seward’s Folly” and “Seward’s Icebox”, and one I hadn’t heard before I looked into it, “Andrew Johnson’s polar bear garden”. Almost no one was thinking there was any geopolitical value, other than pushing the Russians away, and to be fair, that really was more England’s issue than ours, since Alaska bordered Canada, not the US, and the US was pretty strongly isolationist, still following George Washington’s dictum from his Farewell Address to stay out of European affairs. I suppose it might have been seen as a preliminary step before acquiring Canada, but that wasn’t an event likely to happen. Also, while a few expansionists and optimists noted that Alaska had the potential for furs, mining, timber and fishing, gold wasn’t actually discovered until the 1890s. Furthermore, no one knew about the oil, which wasn’t even seen as useful at that point nor discovered yet. It should also be noted that the English were offered the opportunity to buy Alaska by the Russians, who were hoping to spur a bidding war and jack up the price. The Russians, as you note, realized that holding it was going to be tough sledding, and I guess figured they should sell before losing it to England in the next war they had.
Nor was it a very popular deal in Congress – the Senate only ratified the purchase by one vote. As you pointed out, it was a decent amount of coin. Ironically, the US turned down an offer to buy the Danish West Indies for $300,000 more!
There's a comparison to trading a would-be free agent with Boras representing him
but I’m not making it.
What did Andrew Johnson do that was popular with the Congress that eventually impeached him?
Maybe I’m too much of a revisionist, but I suspect that had a Radical Republican made the same deal, Congress would have praised the arrangement and the national media would have echoed that sentiment across the country.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
I just don’t think anybody cared about Alaska at that point. About 20 years earlier, there had been talk of annexing all of Mexico, or purchasing Cuba, but Alaska was too cold and too distant.
The real problem was that Johnson was both a Southerner and a Democrat, and while he was a firm Unionist, he favored a more leniant treatment of the South following the Civil War. That put him at odds with the Radical Republicans who wanted to truly break and reform Southern society.
While they impeached him on a legal technicality (he did something along the lines of firing a cabinet member without Congressional approval), it was basically for purely political purposes.
If we never purchased Alaska, Sarah Palin would be speaking Russian…..and sounding just as obnoxious.
Johnson (Andrew, not Nick) didn't do anything that was popular with Congress
If he’d rolled over and let them be in charge, then they’d have loved him, like Grant did after him. You’re probably right about that part, but don’t forget, Seward wasn’t seen as a bad guy, and he was the one who made the deal.
I’d say this was more about the money than about Johnson’s connection to it. You’re probably more on that with your original posting point. And yeah, if Grant had done it, probably the results would have been about the same.
Maybe 'Nick' Johnson should buy Alaska
That way he’s have plenty of ice for the injuries.
Global domination, bizarre experiments on youth, our best player squatting in buildings drinking Bacardi, what you call the Evil Empire, I CALL HOME!!!!
by SteveBalboniHOF on Apr 20, 2010 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't forget the ever important
Luck* stat
by HappyLuckyGoldenDragonNumber1! on Apr 19, 2010 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought small sample=whole career?
Running AMOK
by FreeBradshaw on Apr 19, 2010 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions
No
Only you would consider 16 years of hitting be a small sample size.
by HappyLuckyGoldenDragonNumber1! on Apr 19, 2010 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions
16 years?
2007 and 2008 are 16 years?
maybe in dog years?
Running AMOK
by FreeBradshaw on Apr 19, 2010 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions
I am referring to your Jeter posts and his "Bad Luck" double plays
by HappyLuckyGoldenDragonNumber1! on Apr 19, 2010 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Ok. Since you like arguing in circuitious manners to hide your poor points
Does Jeter hit into double plays at a normal, less than normal, or higher than normal rate?
by HappyLuckyGoldenDragonNumber1! on Apr 19, 2010 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions
I know you all like taking exams...
but I ain’t answering that crap.
Jeter had 21 GDP in 2007 and 24 in 2008.
He had (**GASP!!!) 18 in 2009.
Per 162 games, he averages 17 a season.
2007 and 2008…are outliers. Anyone who watches the Yanks knows Jeet ain’t exactly at 1998 level..but he’s not Jorge Posada, he can still book it down the line.
Jeter would be fine in the 2 hole. We’re saving 3-6 DP’s a year….if they had a leadoff hitter that could consistently get on and steal bases (..like Carl Crawford)..Jeter would resume being an idea #2 hitter.
But by all means…find another small sample size to stretch out over his career to try and prove that wrong.
And then maybe test me too..
Running AMOK
by FreeBradshaw on Apr 19, 2010 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions
And what is the league average?
by HappyLuckyGoldenDragonNumber1! on Apr 19, 2010 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions
So why is Jeter hitting in the 2-hole
Create a better situation than him hitting as leadoff? Simple. It doesn’t. Speed + high OBP doesn’t come around very often. Jeter seems fine as lead off hitter.
by HappyLuckyGoldenDragonNumber1! on Apr 19, 2010 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions
they have no leadoff hitter aside from him.
Running AMOK
by FreeBradshaw on Apr 19, 2010 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions
See above comment
BABIP= .486
If he can sustain that for another month, I’ll eat my hat.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
I think you are reading my post wrong
My post was not referencing AJax it was referencing Granderson.
by HappyLuckyGoldenDragonNumber1! on Apr 19, 2010 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions
If Ajax maintains a .486 BABIP, yes.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
still way too early to tell
and the full trade was Grandy = Ajax, Coke and IPK. Damon wasn’t involved.
IPK has an 8.68 ERA in the NL West.
Coke has thrown 7 ip.
Ajax has played 12 games. He won’t be hitting .340 at season’s end.
Damon was involved in the sense
That Granderson was picked as Damon’s replacement, NOT Melky’s. So even though Granderson is playing LF he was picked up as Damon’s successor.
by HappyLuckyGoldenDragonNumber1! on Apr 19, 2010 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought
Johnson was picked up to replace Damon, who they would have used as a primary DH had Johnson not accepted the offer they extended him. Granderson was an acquisition to strengthen the outfield overall, whether he were to play LF or CF, depending on who else they had on the roster. Turns out, Johnson took the offer, locking Damon out, and Melky was traded in a package for Vazquez, so Granderson was the best CF candidate and Gardner is platooning (situationally) in LF.
Overall, still too early to tell. Regarding IPK, it’s much better for him to be on an NL West team than cutting his teeth and being chewed up in the AL East (as if there would ever be a rotation spot for him with the Yankees constant need to win now, no time for learning on the job philosphy).
Johnson was picked up to replace Matsui
Granderson was picked up to replace Damon. Gardner was tapped to step up and replace Melky.
by HappyLuckyGoldenDragonNumber1! on Apr 20, 2010 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions
And you know this how?
That AJax won’t hit .340? Are you saying .350? Fact, he could hit .360, he could hit .260. Nobody knows. So to say he will or won’t do whatever is nonsense.
Unfair
You’re being a little unfair here, reading the literal sense instead of his meaning – which is plain. He’s saying that in this small sample of games, Ajax is likely hitting above his true talent level to such a degree that he is fairly certain Ajax’s AVG will be significantly lower by the end of a full season. If you’re saying he should provide evidence to support this assertion, that’s different. Still, basic support for his claim is easily found in his minor league numbers as well as the BABIP mentioned in the comments here. I don’t feel it was necessary for him to repeat that in order to make his statement.
Some great points..
AJax is doing great hitting against lower end pitching and Grandy is battling the best. I still stand by my opinion that AJax will very similar to Roberto Kelly, with a little less power and some more speed. His numbers will inevitably go down a lot when the book comes out on him and he stops hitting minor league comparable pitching. And we do need guys that can win now. I, too, miss Coke, but probably more for nostalgic reasons than anything else. I agree, these guys aren’t hard to find. I really think the Tiger’s accomplished their personal goals of trimming down payroll for after the season while remaining competitive, and bringing in a new look. Talent wise, it’s not even, but other reasons were involved.
Global domination, bizarre experiments on youth, our best player squatting in buildings drinking Bacardi, what you call the Evil Empire, I CALL HOME!!!!
by SteveBalboniHOF on Apr 19, 2010 11:37 PM EDT reply actions
I hope he does well
But there are plenty in A-Jax’s game that concern me right now, and he hasn’t done much to alivate that even with his current hot start.
current K% : 30% (as a comparason, Ryan Howard’s career K% is 32% , and last year it was 30%)
It isn’t exactly rocket science that to maintain a good average in the major leagues, 3 things help
1. put the damn ball in play
2. put the damn ball in play with authority
3. can run really really fast, preferably from the left side of the box.
Right now, Jackson is wayyyyyy below average at 1 (average major leaguer whiff around 18-20% of the time), seems average at best at 2 (though not enough sample to really determine, since at this point a couple home runs change things dramatically), has pretty good speed but certainly isn’t Ichiro level of difference making speed from the left side of the box.
So if his BABIP is .350 (which is the career average BABIP of Ichiro, hence wayyyy above average) then his current line translate to something like 5 less hits than his current 17, lets assume it’s all singles, then his current line would turn into .240/.296/.400 .. yikes.
meanwhile
Granderson’s current BABIP is .353, his career BABIP is .321, so that’s certainly still within a reasonable sample range, the difference of that in the current sample is less than 1 hit.
what’s so great about Granderson’s current line is that his K/BB is completely inline with the last couple of year, which is actually better than his monster 2007 season, there are reasons to believe he can realistically remain within his current range of production. which is basically MVP material.
OK, we have agreement. Too soon to say if Granderson deal is good, Alaska purchase a very good deal.
by designatedquitter on Apr 22, 2010 10:45 AM EDT reply actions
What, no one is missing IPK?
I just had to say that.
Seriously, I think with Damon gone, Granderson’s a good fit in the clubhouse. In a few years, we may rue the day AJAX was traded. Regarding Mr. Granderson, I’’ll use a quote from a women I work with – he may not be Mr. Right, but he’s Mr. Right Now.
The Cubs are looking
for a set-up man. Maybe a trade for Nady? We have more guys in our system than anyone as far relief pitching goes. Oh, and he has a .400 OBP.
maybe closer to the deadline
if GGBG isn’t cutting it, that may be a good deal. Not now though with the way Gardner’s playing.
He’s not getting much playing time yet in Chicago. If he’s willing to come off the bench, he surely would be better than having Winn and Thames waiting for playing time. Oh, and with that “.400 OBP” he could do some DH’ing. Lol.
?
I don’t want Nady here. He is way overrated and I never really thought he would be able to do it in the AL. We’ve seen what NJ can do in the NL and Nady won’t pull it off. Grandy is Mr. Forever Yankee as far as I’m concerned, he is a fit for now and the future. A class act, great defender, and perfectly build for the stadium.
Global domination, bizarre experiments on youth, our best player squatting in buildings drinking Bacardi, what you call the Evil Empire, I CALL HOME!!!!
by SteveBalboniHOF on Apr 23, 2010 12:45 AM EDT reply actions
AJax=ROBERTO
Minus the power, with a little more speed. Mark ‘em words. And I wouldn’t trade NJ if you offered him and Nady.
Global domination, bizarre experiments on youth, our best player squatting in buildings drinking Bacardi, what you call the Evil Empire, I CALL HOME!!!!
by SteveBalboniHOF on Apr 23, 2010 12:48 AM EDT up reply actions
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