Top 3 Shortstops of All Time
by Leviticus6688 on Mar 5, 2010 11:19 AM EST
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PrintNo, this isn't an argument about how Derek Jeter should be on the short list of greatest shortstop of all time. For the Sports Statistics class I'm taking, we were assigned a year-end project dealing with baseball and who the best players were and are at each position. What it entails is first deciding who the top 3 of all time are and then going from there and ordering them 1, 2, 3. I drew shortstop.
The first name that comes to my head when I hear "shortstop" (other than Derek Jeter) is Honus Wagner. He dominated the game in his day, and is widely regarded as the best ever. The others that came to mind where Appling, Yount, Vaughan and Ozzie Smith. Aside from those, we I was looking at some more recent players. My professor told me not to count Alex Rodriguez. Even though he has over 400 more game as SS, when his career is over he'll almost certainly have more at 3B. Cal Ripken is in the mix though and should be considered for his incredible, steady performance. Current players (i.e. Jeter) can be in the mix, but it must only be based on what they have already accomplished. No doubt Jeter will have over 3,000 hits by the time he's done and hopefully more World Series rings to go along with it. But keep in mind we're ranking them based on things they've already accomplished.
In his Historical Baseball Abstract, Bill James ranked them (based on his Win Shares):
1.Wagner
2.Vaughan
3.Ripken
Then it was Yount, Ernie Banks, Barry Larkin, and Ozzie Smith.
As simply a starting point, I was wondering what some of you guys (and gals) thought about the subject. If you could post the top 3 (in your opinion) shortstops of all time, it would be greatly appreciated.
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Luis Aparicio
Don’t forget Luis Aparicio
Mickey C
by Mickey C on Mar 5, 2010 11:39 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Plus, it 'almost' sounds Italian
I second this, in my opinion Aparcio should definetly be in here, at least over Barry Larkin. This guys hitting stats might not be off the charts, but he was a legendary gloveman. A lot of the development methods used for young shortstops today come directly from this guy. He is considered one of the biggest contributers to modern shortstop fielding mechanics. Kind of a specielist HOFer, like Sutter with his splitter. These guys gave the game things that span generations and changed the whole face of it.
Global domination, bizarre experiments on youth, our best player squatting in buildings drinking Bacardi, what you call the Evil Empire, I CALL HOME!!!!
by SteveBalboniHOF on Mar 5, 2010 5:31 PM EST up reply actions
I think what Jeter already "has" accomplished is better than Larkin.
Larkin was very, very good. But he wasn’t Jeter status
Section 203 Row 15 Seat 1
Larkin Ain't Close
Wagner
A-Rod
Jeter
Ripkin
Appling
Yount
Boubreau
Vaughan
Cronin
& Ozzie Smith
by dustproduction on Mar 9, 2010 10:38 PM EST up reply actions
Any statistical formula is just a way of saying "I can't make a comparison."
It’s like mvp voting. Depending on what factor you stress, you come up with a different answer. Some ask “could the team have won without him.” Others just look at triple crown- type numbers, or career hits/ homers/ stolen bases or whatever.
If the best is the high performing driving force on multiple championship teams, then Derek Jeter is clearly in the top 3. No one here has seen Arky Vaughan or Honus Wagner play, not even on film. Their teams were not dominant, and who can say how much worse they would have been without them? Jeter has certainly performed at shortstop at a hall of fame level longer than either of them (as evidenced by the number of hits at short if nothing else).
Win shares doesn’t take into account whether the player’s work ethic made other players on the team train harder, or play smarter, or play less selfishly (move runners with outs, bunt, etc). Nor does it take into account whether this player is the one you want at bat with runners on in a tie game in the 9th, or who you want to handle the ball when the other team has runners on base in the 9th.
Sorry, but win shares is a cop out.
by designatedquitter on Mar 5, 2010 1:44 PM EST reply actions
False
Metrics like Win Shares are intended to measure the value of a player’s offense and defense over the length of their careers, relative to average players at the same position. In that sense, it’s not a cop out. It’s perhaps the only objective way to make statistical comparisons that you otherwise could not (i.e. seeing Honus Wagner play vs. seeing Jeter play).
So it really depends on what you want to do. If you want to make objective arguments (i.e. Jeter has fewer career Win Shares than all the shortstops you’ve mentioned), then use Win Shares, WARP, VORP, etc. If you want to talk about which shortstop has the most World Championships, then don’t.
But please, spare me this:
Win shares doesn’t take into account whether the player’s work ethic made other players on the team train harder, or play smarter, or play less selfishly (move runners with outs, bunt, etc). Nor does it take into account whether this player is the one you want at bat with runners on in a tie game in the 9th, or who you want to handle the ball when the other team has runners on base in the 9th.
All of those things have been combined into a new stat I would like to call
The Pedroia.
Dustin Pedroia has a Pedrioa value of 1.0000, and all other players will be evaluated based on toughness, grittiness, and peskiness.
Leading our team is Gardner with a Pedroia of 0.8442.
Since Jeter only has a Pedroia value of 0.6531, I don’t think that it’s relevant to this discussion.
This sticker is dangerous and inconvenient, but I do love Fig Newtons.
I wonder...
What would David Eckstein’s 162 game average Pedroia be?
He might get thrust into the discussion based only on that.
by Leviticus6688 on Mar 5, 2010 3:47 PM EST up reply actions
You’re both wrong. The statistic is actually called the Punto. It measures how much, in the immortal words of Ron Gardenhire, somebody “just LOOKS like a basball player” relative to how much Nick Punto looks like a baseball player.
I see,
so you’d just be measuring players in WBP (Wins Below Punto) since it’s actually impossible to be at Punto’s level.
by Leviticus6688 on Mar 5, 2010 4:33 PM EST up reply actions
You guys forget
the .100 boost in the Pedroia that is guaranteed by playing in Boston. Any player for any other team can not score a Pedroia value of higher than .900, because they are not “fighting off the evil empire Yankees by being fun loving and playing hard and loving the game”
Incidentally, Eckstein has a perfect Pedrioa (for a non Red Sox player) of .900.
Punto is a little worse, he’s only a god in Minnesota, so he has a Pedroia of .875.
This sticker is dangerous and inconvenient, but I do love Fig Newtons.
Facts
Dustin Pedroia totaled 15 WAR so far (3 seasons), he’s been clearly a very good player, let’s break it down in term of Positional WAR meaning, how his production (both offensively and defensively) flares compared to the rest of the second basemen in the AL:
The average AL 2 baseman wOBA for 2009: .341 Dustin Pedroia 2009 wOBA: .360
Let’s converts those wOBA’s to runs so that we can just focus on one number. I’ll use this formula: (wOBApedroia-wOBAal)/1.15*PApedroia which give us a 2.4 runs over the average 2B.
The average AL 2 baseman UZR for 2009: 0.6 Dustin Pedroia 2009 UZR: 9.8 (!!!!)
The difference is more staggering when you combine them both to calculate the WAR at the position:
The average AL 2 baseman WAR for 2009: 0.6 Dustin Pedoia 2009 WAR: 5.2
Now, there’s another factor that should be considered IMO when we evaluate a player: Salary vs Production, meaning a player is more valuable to his team when he’s “under paid”, it allows the team FO to go get more talent and overpay sometimes depending of their position on the Win Curve (Here’s an introduction to the Marginal Value of a Win although those concepts are not very important when you’re a Yankees fan)
Players like Evan Longoria or Adrian Gonzalez are certainly more valuable to their respective teams than Miguel Cabrera who’s a obviously a great player, but he’s paid what he’s worth limiting his team in the FA market.
According to Cot’s, Pedroia has been paid in those 3 seasons $ 2,650,000 for a $66.5 millions.
That is value(able) my friend ;)
"That was a lot of fun… You just keep pounding balls into the gap. The one thing you don’t want to do is hit a home run. That’s a rally-killer." Jeff Francoeur
Couple points
1. Obviously my original post was in jest, talking about the ridiculous way that Pedroia gets covered by ESPN and their lackeys. He’s a good player, so say that, don’t say that he succeeds because of his mental toughness and grittiness and guttyness, that’s just ridiculous.
2. His home/away splits make me wonder how great he would be without a 90 foot high wall right behind 3rd base for half of his games (Insert obvious point about Johnny Damon hitting 24 HR last year).
3. Of course he gets paid less than guys like Miguel Cabrera. Cabrera has hit free agency and Pedroia hasn’t. That would be like us saying Joba Chamberlain is better than John Lackey because Chamberlain gets paid 450,000 and Lackey just signed an 83MM deal. Well, no shit, Joba hasn’t hit free agency yet.
4. UZR is a bad stat.
5. “although those concepts are not very important when you’re a Yankees fan” The Red Sox are not a small market team, never have been, and never will be. Beltre, Cameron, JD Drew, Scutaro, and Lackey didnt’ come to Boston for the fun loving attitude and chowder. =p
This sticker is dangerous and inconvenient, but I do love Fig Newtons.
by Lord Duggan on Mar 6, 2010 2:26 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I don’t know- Beltre’s not a little dude. He might have come for the chowder.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
lol
Global domination, bizarre experiments on youth, our best player squatting in buildings drinking Bacardi, what you call the Evil Empire, I CALL HOME!!!!
by SteveBalboniHOF on Mar 6, 2010 4:56 PM EST up reply actions
Cabrera never hit free agency. He was traded to the Tigers while still under team control and signed a contract extension. He has 6 more years on his contract, so he won’t hit free agency until he’s 32.
UZR is a pretty bad stat. I really wish someone could find a good way to judge defense, but it’s near impossible without getting way too complicated, like taking into account the speed of the ball off the bat, distance from the fielder, time in the air, etc.
Metrics are INTENDED to measure the value of a players offense and defense
And the road to hell is paved with those intentions. Win shares isn’t a cop out in the sense that it gives an answer. My quarrel with it is whether it gives the objectively correct answer that it purports to give. There are things that offensive stats can’t entirely measure, and and the question of whether defense can be quantified at all is still open.
I regard the notion of a player contributing ‘x’ number of wins above a replacement player or than another specific player to have crossed the line into metaphysics at best, and arrant nonsense at worst.
The Pedroia, however, intrigues me. Tell us more, Duggan.
by designatedquitter on Mar 5, 2010 2:30 PM EST reply actions
Once Jeter's career is over
I honestly, objectively think he should be considered the greatest shortstop ever. at least 5 rings. at least 4 Gold gloves. 3,500 hits or more. about a .315 batting avg. I dont think anyone stacks up as an all around player next to Jeter at short.
Sure, there are shortstops that did certain things better than Jeter, but ALL AROUND, when taking in all the aspects, I want Derek Jeter as my shortstop, and no one else.
Its a weird thing to say. I alays think of something I heard on ESPN one night when they were talking about roger Federer. He has the most grand slam titles. But, he is not considered the best on a grass surface (sampras), he is considered the 2nd best. He is also considered the second best on clay, behind nadal.
So the question is, can someone be the best ever if they were never the best at one particular thing? I don’t know (or think, for that matter) if Jeter is regarded as the best at an overall ability, like hitting for example.
But i think that if a person is a great hitter, and cant field, or vice versa, they shouldnt be considered the best. Jeter does everything well. So I think he should be considered the best.
I believe in the Church of Baseball
by Frank Campagnola on Mar 5, 2010 2:38 PM EST reply actions
jeter vs. ripken
Ripken had almost 3,200 hits, but hit at a .276 clip. Jeter’s career batting avg is 40 points higher, and I think its a pretty safe bet to say he’ll surpass Ripken in hits. Jeter’s OPS+ is also 9 points higher than Ripken’s.
Ripken has 1 ring to Jeter’s 5, and in the one series Ripken played in, he went 3 for 18, or .167
Jeter’s career avg in the world series is .321
The fielding metrics vary so much for both players that i dont know if i can put too much faith in them.
I believe in the Church of Baseball
by Frank Campagnola on Mar 5, 2010 2:47 PM EST up reply actions
wagner
his fielding was atrocious. he made 676 errors at short. 676!!!!!
and we all know he could hit. but as i said before, how can someone be the best if they’re SO BAD at something else.
I believe in the Church of Baseball
by Frank Campagnola on Mar 5, 2010 2:52 PM EST up reply actions
For what it's worth
errors were different then. They typically used the same ball until it was literally unusable: often when it had half fallen apart. The cork centered baseball wasn’t invented until 1909. None of us know how much of a factor this played in throws, catches, or anything else. Plus, the scoring could have been under different conditions than it is now.
Regardless, James has Wagner at 655 career win shares including one season in which he had 59(!). His career average per 162 games was 38.01. To put that into context, he considers a season of 30 win shares to be MVP-esque. Probably what Pujols has been doing the past few years. So it could be said that Wagner had 2 MVP seasons in one.
The next highest SS as far as win shares go is Robin Yount at 423…over 200 less.
by Leviticus6688 on Mar 5, 2010 3:45 PM EST up reply actions
1909 ball change
either way, he still had 50, 40 and 30+ error seasons after 1909. thats horrendous. look at his baseball reference page. killed his team defensively with numbers like that
how can you consider someone the best at his position when he was SO BAD at a major aspect of his game
I believe in the Church of Baseball
by Frank Campagnola on Mar 5, 2010 6:21 PM EST up reply actions
Oh no- they hit it towards Wagner!!!!
Did they score errors differently then? 50 errors-thats insane. I would have to look at the league average for the time, but if that holds true, what a disaster to a team, are you kidding me? Did this guy have some sort of seizure disorder when the ball was hit at him and people felt bad and didn’t want to say anything? I mean, no offense to anyone that has physical impairments, but maybe big league shortstop is not for you. I would rather have Barry Larkin in there then this guy. Maybe have Wagner DHing or something, I guess at the time they had to put him somewhere, but why not leftfield. They didn’t even play a full modern day schedule then.
Global domination, bizarre experiments on youth, our best player squatting in buildings drinking Bacardi, what you call the Evil Empire, I CALL HOME!!!!
by SteveBalboniHOF on Mar 5, 2010 7:56 PM EST up reply actions
Here we go...
Wagner was hardly an outlier when it came to making errors. If you look at the career leaders, they were all from the late 1800s to the early 1900s.
Like I said before, it was a different game.
by Leviticus6688 on Mar 5, 2010 10:45 PM EST up reply actions
Nice find
Glove size, field conditions, quality of the balls and approach at the plate (the Baltimore chop vs the long fly) = very different game
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
I think Gardner needs to Baltimore chop more often...
on a side note, did you know that Wee Willie Keeler once got a double on a Baltimore Chop?
There’s no way that happened and it shouldn’t have been called an error.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
Baltimore chop
Most famous practitioners of the Baltimore chop were HOF’ers John McGraw and Hughie Jennings.
just want to throw in
video scouting reports which exploits batter tendencies.
by Scooby Snacks on Mar 6, 2010 6:16 PM EST up reply actions
theres other factors
to account for. like teams putting more value on the defensive side of the ball? better coaching. learning more about proper fielding
I believe in the Church of Baseball
by Frank Campagnola on Mar 6, 2010 4:31 PM EST up reply actions
World Series rings and Gold Gloves
may be the two absolute worst stats possible as far evaluating an individual player’s talent.
This sticker is dangerous and inconvenient, but I do love Fig Newtons.
Thank you
I was waiting for someone to bring that up. We’re not comparing the Yankees to the Pirates after all.
by Leviticus6688 on Mar 5, 2010 3:33 PM EST up reply actions
gold gloves yes
just a statement of fact, and regardless its used as a determining factor in hall voting.
but rings? so a player whos batting avg in the world series is .321 is bad for judging him as a player? a guy whos hitting at the top of the order playing that well is a significant factor in his team obtaining those rings
I believe in the Church of Baseball
by Frank Campagnola on Mar 5, 2010 6:17 PM EST up reply actions
The corresponding argument would be
Would Derek Jeter be less of a player if he performed exactly the way he has, but as a Pittsburgh Pirate?
www.bullpenbanter.com
I dunno…
the 3000 hits in his future say he’d be a great player anywhere.
Maybe if he was on the Pirates..taking them to the playoffs, maybe he’d get a few MVP trophies cuz he’s not just one of the boys on the Yanks?
..maybe he’d be better thought of as a Pirate?
Master of the squeegee
Another +1
I think being a Yankee sometimes hinders ones chances at post season awards. It’s hard to believe that a Yankee hasn’t won the MVP award in any of their last 7 World Series championship seasons. Jeter should have won in ’99 and even Bernie could have won in ’98. And I think being a Yankee “hurt” Jeter in ’06.
Well, that's my point
He’s a great player anywhere. So, the rings, while they certainly mean something, aren’t all that big a portion of his value as a player or his HOF candidacy. He’s a great player anywhere.
www.bullpenbanter.com
and i know
players have rings without playing majro roles with their teams, like hinske. thats not what i meant. jeters play in the postseason and world series is what i was focusing on
I believe in the Church of Baseball
by Frank Campagnola on Mar 5, 2010 6:26 PM EST up reply actions
This is like the argument that Tom Brady is better than Dan Marino
because Brady won a bunch of Super Bowls. It’s absolutely nonsensical.
Did Jeter contribute greatly to 5 world series rings? Yes. But you don’t win World Series rings because of one player.
Look at the way that A-Rod had absolutely murdered the ball at every stop in his career, and last year was the first time he had ever won a ring. Is it his fault that the rest of his team with the Rangers and Mariners wasn’t good enough to get him there?
Taking a team accomplishment and attributing it to a single player is just dumb. If Jeter were drafted by the Pirates instead of the Yankees he would be the exact same player and have 0 rings.
This sticker is dangerous and inconvenient, but I do love Fig Newtons.
you could easily state
that it was A-Rods fault the Rangers were not contending. His contract ate up like 1/4 of the team’s payroll. Not much else you can do with a clog like that limiting your resources.
and saying jeter would be the same player in Pitt is dumb. how do you know that NY doesnt bring out the ABSOLUTE best in jeter? Maybe playing consistently in front of 50k fans instead of like 20k gives him a rush he needs to play great ball
I believe in the Church of Baseball
by Frank Campagnola on Mar 6, 2010 4:34 PM EST up reply actions
"His contract ate up like 1/4 of the team’s payroll."
That’s hardly ARod’s fault. I’d blame that on the moron who gave him such a big contract in the first place.
And that same guy gave Chan Ho Park a 5 year, 65 million dollar deal.
by FloridaownsFSU on Mar 6, 2010 4:37 PM EST up reply actions
How do YOU know
that he wouldn’t play better in Pittsburgh than in NY? My point is that it’s entirely speculation.
He’s been put in one specific circumstance and we have one specific result. And we have ABSOLUTELY no way of telling for sure whether or not that’s the best circumstance, the worst circumstance, or anywhere in between.
And that is why it’s stupid to take a team, or circumstance, achievement and attribute it to a specific player.
Ted Williams had no rings and he’s a better player than Jeter ever will be.
This sticker is dangerous and inconvenient, but I do love Fig Newtons.
MoxySWANK/Salary/Team Performance, Ted Williams= A-Hole
I guess we are true Yanks to be talking money when it comes to all-time great players. This money/team performance/player value stuff in a bunch of nonsense I’m glad Bill James doesn’t have in there. (but don’t give him any ideas…) Also, Ted Williams may be a better player but he was also an A-Hole.
Global domination, bizarre experiments on youth, our best player squatting in buildings drinking Bacardi, what you call the Evil Empire, I CALL HOME!!!!
by SteveBalboniHOF on Mar 6, 2010 5:05 PM EST up reply actions
I’d like to put Tim McCarver, Milton Bradley, Ty Cobb and Ted Williams on the same team and see what random other player
A. Checks himself into the mental hospitol or
B. Voluntarily beats them all. (Although they might fight amongst themselves first… but edge to Milton or Cobb-they’re just crazy mean)
Global domination, bizarre experiments on youth, our best player squatting in buildings drinking Bacardi, what you call the Evil Empire, I CALL HOME!!!!
by SteveBalboniHOF on Mar 6, 2010 5:39 PM EST up reply actions
Definitely Wagner. I’ll give you Vaughan. I honestly think Jeter is third. He has a career wRC+ of 131, which is 14 points better than Ripken. Larkin was good, but he’s not Jeter. Ozzie Smith was a wizard defensively, but he was below average offensively.
Legendary Jeter
Vaughan and Wagner played in era that makes them statistically hard to compare to modern players, not to mention the condition of the ball or other variables. They get in any ones top picks almost purely on carried legend from 100 years ago. (Which is noteworthy) I know you said this was comparing retired players, but could you imagine the legendary status that would have indured if Jete played then? The famous ‘throw’ to home, the clutch hits? If Derek had been around during the dead ball era, would anyone dispute he would be the same class as these immortals? When he retires there should be no doubt he belongs in the top three, statistically or otherwise.
Global domination, bizarre experiments on youth, our best player squatting in buildings drinking Bacardi, what you call the Evil Empire, I CALL HOME!!!!
Love these kind of questions
Wagner #1 will not be approached by Jeter.
Ripken #2 will be passed by Jeter if he hasn’t already
Jeter #3.
If A-Rod had stayed at shortstop he may have caught Wagner. Vaughan is the only other one in the discussion I think. I don’t know him well enough to rate him this high.
jeter is easily number 2 already
but to say he wont even approach wagner is ridiculous. wagner’s defense was incredibly bad and theres no way i can say wagner was the best ever at his position when such an important aspect of his game was so terrible
I believe in the Church of Baseball
by Frank Campagnola on Mar 5, 2010 6:24 PM EST up reply actions
Not sure where you get Wagner's defense being bad.
Most experts think he is far and away the greatest shortstop. Bill James is far from alone on that one.
look at his defensive numbers.
I believe in the Church of Baseball
by Frank Campagnola on Mar 5, 2010 6:35 PM EST up reply actions
I know about all the errors,
but the problem with looking at errors (or fielding percentage for that matter) is that it only looks at what a player does wrong. Fielding percentage is the batting equivalent of how often a player doesn’t strike out.
The sad part is that errors (and often unreliable visual accounts) are the only way of grading Wagner’s defense. Nobody around now was alive then, so it’s impossible to create a reputation as a good defensive player like some are able to do today.
As I said before though, the ball conditions were different then and could have at least been a part of some of his poor numbers, and yes, James is far from alone in regarding Aparicio and Wagner 1-2 or 2-1 in the best defensive SS of all time.
by Leviticus6688 on Mar 5, 2010 10:30 PM EST up reply actions
Colonial All-Stars
I’d also like to add Bill James has some sort of bizzaro love affair with players from 100+ years ago. I’m waiting for him to publish stats from 1730’s London cricket games and starting arguing for those guys.
Global domination, bizarre experiments on youth, our best player squatting in buildings drinking Bacardi, what you call the Evil Empire, I CALL HOME!!!!
It would read like this:
Global domination, bizarre experiments on youth, our best player squatting in buildings drinking Bacardi, what you call the Evil Empire, I CALL HOME!!!!
by SteveBalboniHOF on Mar 5, 2010 5:53 PM EST up reply actions
Although many people know Ron Gardenshire, few people know of his great, great, great grandfather Arturis Gardenshire. He was a lengendary bowler/ batsman for the 1730’s London Grasshoppers. Although it was said that his ‘swank with the wicket did not always tarry wins’ his ‘galient arm did wonders for his moxy’. I have managed to recover an old, wax stained parchment supporting this claim and have come up with a method to translate this into modern statics known as MoxSWANK. Further more…
Global domination, bizarre experiments on youth, our best player squatting in buildings drinking Bacardi, what you call the Evil Empire, I CALL HOME!!!!
seriously wish i could read this article.
any ESPN insiders?
I believe in the Church of Baseball
by Frank Campagnola on Mar 5, 2010 6:36 PM EST reply actions
you guys are all quackers!!
phil rizzuto the number one shortstop of all time. 10 pennants and 7 world championships in a 13 year career. he was the backbone of a yanke dynasty that included such hangerons as yogi “don’t call me pogie” berra, mickey mantle, billy martin, and joltin joe. without rizzuto leading them they were nuthin!!
Based on that school of thought,
I guess by the time Eric Hinske retires, he’ll be the best 3B/LF/RF/1B of all time because his team happens to make the world series every year.
It’s not a shot at Rizzuto, who was an amazing player, but calling one player better than another because his team was stronger is just wrong.
by Leviticus6688 on Mar 5, 2010 10:33 PM EST up reply actions
Pretty sure you missed some sarcasm
because anyone that calls Yogi Berra Mickey Mantle and Joe Dimaggio hangers on cannot be fully serious.
This sticker is dangerous and inconvenient, but I do love Fig Newtons.
Wow
I can’t believe nobody even mentioned Omar Vizquel. Really? First off lets get it out of the way. Jeter is THE #1 shortstop of all time. Now I wont include Wagner because comparing dead ball era player to the players of today is ridiculous.
The only shortstop in history that is even close to Jeter is Ripken. Jeter has a lifetime batting average better than Vizquel, Rizzuto, Smith and Ripken. Vaughn has him beat by 1 percentage point in 221 less games.
Hits: Jeter has 43 more hits than Vizquel in 604 less games. He has 1,158 more hits than Rizzuto in only 477 more games. 287 more hits than Smith in 435 less games. 644 more hits than Vaughn in only 321 more games. 407 more than Larkin in 52 less games. The only person he trails is Ripken by 437 hits however he has played 863 less games. Case closed on hits
Runs: He has everyone beat by at least 196 runs except for Ripken who has him by 73 like I said in 863 more games.
HR: He has everyone beat in HR’s except Ripken who he probably wont catch Ripken has 207 more and Jeter is a contact hitter.
RBI: Again has all of them beat except Ripken who has 627 more. Very catchable.
Fielding: Has them all beat except Vizquel and Smith.
The only case for a better shortstop and thats of now is Ripken all others fall in line.
Jeter might be the most impressive offensive shortstop- his advantage over Ripken in OBP outweighs his disadvantage in SLG, in my opinion.
But on defense, there are so many better shortstops it’s a joke. Jeter has improved in the last couple of seasons, but he was bad for so long that he’ll never bring his career defense to average.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
Strange Factor
So bad? C’mon. In my opinion he was about even with Ripkin. They had similar builds too, both tall guys. Honestly, one of my biggest knocks on Ripkin is the ‘streak’. Watching him play, I never really saw him throwing himself all out for balls all the time like, say, Ozzie or Omar. (and he never was seriously injured…) I also don’t think players help their team by being on the field through injuries. Cal might be the ‘working mans’ shortstop or whatever but when an athlete is at 20% of his game because he’s hurting, he needs to swallow personal pride and take himself out. It’s not heroic and it’s not an excuse for lousy play. I guess it didn’t matter for him because the O’s were never in the pennent hunt for very long while he was around. That is another thing that has to be taken in to consideration with contending teams shortstops vs. lousy teams’. Also, unless someone has the exact speed, location, and number of hits with wind variables, etc.. there is no stat to judge defense! *I’m kind of hoping one of you guys find something like that, but, I don’t know. Range Factor is a stupid stat. Like Ripkin, Jeter has the strong arm throwing from the hole and is steady at turning DPs. His arm may be slightly more erratic, but he has ‘the leap’ that Ripkin never had. Ripkin was steady, not making errors, but not flashy. Just my opinion. And I’m still wondering how James came up with Wagner being better defensively that Luis bleeping Aparicio! I now know Wagner was even for his time with errors, but get real. I’m starting to wonder if Aparicio isn’t the most underrated guy on here. My grandfather saw this guy play and remembers him diving behind a stationary thirdbaseman to grab liners. In his opinion Aparicio was the greatest defensive player he EVER saw and he saw a lot of baseball. I’ll write that off as being impossible to compare deadball guys to modern times. I wish there was a stat that took all the hits and runs guys like Ozzie, Omar, and Aparicio robbed and added it to their batting average.
Global domination, bizarre experiments on youth, our best player squatting in buildings drinking Bacardi, what you call the Evil Empire, I CALL HOME!!!!
by SteveBalboniHOF on Mar 6, 2010 4:46 PM EST up reply actions
Wagner's errors
A couple of considerations:
> baseball gloves were not the highly engineered contraptions they are today
> the condition of the fields was much worse than today. When was the last time you saw a bad hop?
> possibly more willingness on the part of the scorers to call something an error, or perhaps less agreement on what constituted an error. Before 1980, the “official scorer” at a game was one of the sportswriters.
To judge Wagner within his era, I think we have to rely on the people who were there. He was one of the first five players voted into the HOF, getting as many votes as Babe Ruth. Ty Cob said that Wagner was "maybe the greatest star ever to take the diamond.
Was he the best ever? I am not sure you can compare players who played 100 years apart, or if it is even necessary to do so.
Mickey C
I agree 100% Mickey C and that was a great chart showing the league error averages last night from Leviticus. He better be passing this class. (Eat your heart out ESPN, real fans BLOG!!!!) I really wish there was some stat to show my last sentence of Strange Factor, but I think that is one if those things that makes the game mystical.
Global domination, bizarre experiments on youth, our best player squatting in buildings drinking Bacardi, what you call the Evil Empire, I CALL HOME!!!!
by SteveBalboniHOF on Mar 6, 2010 5:31 PM EST up reply actions
Ty Cobb said Wagner was the best?
Cobb generally argued that he was the best (hence his denigration of Babe Ruth- “he runs pretty well for a fat man.”).
by designatedquitter on Mar 8, 2010 2:08 PM EST reply actions
Were you asking or were you stating
that Cobb said that of Wagner? I’d never heard that before.
Not to give James another plug, but in his “Abstract” he put in an excerpt from a biography on Cobb. In it, it said that Cobb was a very insecure man which caused him to lash out and be viewed as a racist. I’m not saying that’s totally accurate, but it’s interesting to see another view of the guy.
by Leviticus6688 on Mar 8, 2010 2:58 PM EST up reply actions
Well
Cobb did jump into the stands and beat the crap out of a one-handed, two-fingered heckler who had called him a “half-n-word”.
Is that worse
than when Artest beat the crap out of a guy for throwing a cup of ice at him? I’m not saying one is worse than the other, I’m just curious as to what would some people would think?
by Leviticus6688 on Mar 8, 2010 3:49 PM EST up reply actions
Minus the second "?"
Pretend it’s a “.”
by Leviticus6688 on Mar 8, 2010 3:50 PM EST up reply actions
Stating
I was told the comment about Wagner was from Cobb’s book, “My Life in Baseball”.
Cobb could be generous. I remember a comment he made in the early 1950s that one of the players he respected the most was Phil Rizzuto, because, of all of the players of that time, Rizzuto made the most out of the talent that he had. Cobb himself worked hard to stay in shape and improve his game and respected Rizzuto’s effort.
Mickey C
Look out Granny!!! Here comes the Georgia Peach!!
‘The Georgia Peach’ was born in post civil war Georgia, so of course he was racist (as was much of baseball then) but besides that the guy was just plain mean. Whether it was ending players careers by spiking people with his cleats or jumping in the crowd to beat old woman and guys with one hand, this guy was off the chain. There’s whole books written on his psycotic behavior. Sometimes I feel ‘insecure’ and want to beat up elderly people, but I try to control myself. Anyway, I have to wonder why a lot of these legends like Cobb and Williams were not championship players. They were polarizing figures and had decent teams around them. My main guess is they were total A-Holes who made life miserable enough for their teammates that it cost games. If anyone wants evidense of this, their is plenty of stuff written by the people they played with. Thats another + for class act Derek. Oh and my top three defensive shortstops are Aparicio, Smith, Vizquel. Offensively, Wagner, Ripkin, Banks. Jeter will be the number one or two all-around shortstop when he retires (and I do count postseason, for sure) and Rodriguez will be in the top three for his years at SS also. If we’re counting Banks, we’re counting A-Rod (unless juice is involved…, but for me personally I don’t care and think all the mutants should be in the hall).
Global domination, bizarre experiments on youth, our best player squatting in buildings drinking Bacardi, what you call the Evil Empire, I CALL HOME!!!!
why Jeter could be
Look a lot has to go into how many games were won while a guy played. I would like to know the winning pct of each player..I bet Jeter is high on it. Now I have never seen Wagner, but Ripken was great but a different type of hitter. Maybe he is my #1 and Jeter #2…depends if Jeter stays at SS b/c Ripken was a good 3B abd some with A-rod.
and this is from a Mets fan
Cobb was not hated by everyone.
When he was managing the Tigers and the league wanted to suspend him, the entire Tiger team threatened to boycott every game Cobb missed. They were fiercely loyal to him. This doesn’t mean that all of the above isn’t true, only that he was able to use his paranoia constructively, like Billy Martin.
by designatedquitter on Mar 9, 2010 10:39 AM EST reply actions
I just want to say Billy Martin was nothing like Cobb personally. People construe Martin as some kind of rascist because he’s a Texan, but its way off base. He scouted (and saved) Ron LeFlore, eventually befriended Reggie, and was NOT a member of the KKK. He might have got shatfaced once in ahwile and talked smack, but probably didn’t even remember what he was saying. Managerially, you are right, personally I have to throw a bone to Billy.
Global domination, bizarre experiments on youth, our best player squatting in buildings drinking Bacardi, what you call the Evil Empire, I CALL HOME!!!!
by SteveBalboniHOF on Mar 9, 2010 2:45 PM EST up reply actions
I never meant to imply that Billy Martin was a racist or injured other players on purpose.
I was thinking of an article or book (that I can no longer place) that said that Billy was always afraid that other managers were cooking up various strategies, and he would spend his time devising countermeasures, and counter- countermeasures. Since most of the time opposing managers had no strategy more sophisticated than patting their players on the ass and telling them to “play good” Billy was regarded as paranoid. As a strategist on the field, his paranoia looked like brilliant managing, which I guess it was.
by designatedquitter on Mar 10, 2010 2:33 PM EST up reply actions
Jeter Stats vs. Peers
You can’t compare straight stats from 1900 to 2010, you need to compare the player vs. the league, how many standard deviations he is better than average, etc…Anyone who played before integration should get a huge deduction and more deductions for anyone who played before the mass introduction of Latin American players. Now stat geeks, after you figure that out try to subtract out the known and expected steroid users (including Gwynn, Molitor and others) and then compare those who are left standing….Let me save you some trouble, Jete is gonna finish well ahead of all SS and very near the top of the list.
Uh,
if you simply go by Z-Scores (i.e. standard deviations from the means) Wagner is far better than Jeter. Wagner’s career wOBA was .414 vs. a league average over his career of .321. Jeter’s has been .375 vs. a league average of .331.
Not really comparable at all.
Now as for Jeter vs. Ripken or Jeter vs. Vizquel, there’s a closer comparison.
by Leviticus6688 on Mar 10, 2010 10:34 PM EST up reply actions
What about "Mr. Cub?"
Why isn’t Ernie Banks even a part of this discussion.
Because he wasn’t a shortstop for very long, comparatively.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
Ozzie
Was the best defensive shortstop but I would have to say Jeter is the best all around ( In my lifetime) Honus Wagner is probably the best but Ive never seen him play or how he was on the field ( attitude)…….By the way. 16 inch softball out of Chcago and Iowa still use the ole chop or cut swing. Works good with the big ball..
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