New York Yankee notes: Bernie a Hall of Famer?
by Ed Valentine on Mar 4, 2010 8:07 AM EST
in News
26 comments
Ex-New York Yankee center fielder Bernie Williams was in attendance for the Yankees Spring Training opener Wednesday against the Pittsburgh Pirates.
Among the things reporters asked Williams was whether or not the now acknowledged Steroid Era would actually help his Hall of Fame chances. That since Bernie, of course, played "clean."
Williams, a five-time All-Star who won four Gold Gloves, a batting title and four World Series rings, says he realizes that his numbers aren't as overwhelming as those of some others from his era - he hit .297 with 287 home runs and 1,257 RBI. The question remains: Will history - and Hall of Fame voters - view his career more favorably now that so many other players have been busted for using performance-enhancing drugs?
"How is it going to affect people that had sort of normal numbers?" Williams said yesterday at Yankees camp. "I don't look at my career differently. My career is what it is. I have the satisfaction of saying that I played through a lot of pain, through a lot of injuries, and I never did anything like that. That's probably reflected in my numbers.
"At the end of the day, it's a very complicated issue," Williams continued. "Who knows who did what and who can prove whatever? You just have to look at yourself in the mirror and say, 'Did you do it the right way?' I had a great time playing this game and I have no regrets."
Sorry, folks. I know this will tick some of you off. But, Bernie is not a Hall of Famer. Very good player, yes. Very important cog during a great era of Yankee baseball, yes. An incredibly popular player and a class act, yes.
Hall of Famer? No. This is my problem with the way many seem to view the Hall of Fame these days. It is meant for the best of the best -- players who dominated their position during the era in which they played. Bernie was very good, but he never did that. And that place is Cooperstown is not called the Hall of Very Good.
- The Yankees face the Phillies today in Spring Training Game 2, with CC Sabathia starting against Roy Halladay. Today means nothing, of course, but Philadelphia Manager Charlie Manuel and his team are already calling out the Yankees.
Manuel was even more clear about his ultimate desire for 2010. A visitor to his office suggested that a Phils-Seattle World Series - meaning a likely Game 1 duel of Halladay against castaway ace Cliff Lee - would be an entertaining matchup.
"Nah," Manuel said, with a quick and dismissive shake of his head. "I want the Yankees."
Underlying the manager's desire are the two central pursuits of the Phils' 2010 season.
The Phils hope to reclaim the championship the Yankees snatched from them last autumn. And, entering a later phase of their current run, they want to solidify their position among baseball's elite. The surest way to do that is to conquer the Yankees, a more storied opponent than any other.
"Whether you want to admit it or not, they're the New York Yankees, and that means something," Jayson Werth
Acknowledging the Yankee mystique does not mean bowing to it; for Werth and his teammates, it means wishing to eclipse it.
"One thing that I have always noticed about going to Yankee Stadium was, the pregame Jumbotron always showed excessive amounts of Yankee tributes," Werth said. "They really enjoy themselves, but they have a right. "I don't think there would be anything better than to reach the World Series again and to beat them. We were the defending champs, and they took it away." said. "The Yankees always have some sort of mystique." - Chad Gaudin, Sergio Mitre and Alfredo Aceves all pitched well Tuesday.
- NoMaas has a nice interview with Brett Gardner.
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I dunno...
Among the things reporters was asked (was asked?)…Sorry Ed, couldn’t help myself.
Well, I dunno, it depends a great deal on what particular position you play.
Here is my proof, the late Kirby Puckett and Donnie Baseball have eerily similar numbers, one is a first ballot HOFamer, the other doesn’t get a sniff. No, my 2nd favorite Yankee of all time should not be in (although tthe % of the vote he gets is insulting to anybody who watched him play)…Puckett played a more non-tradional power position
with a few exceptions (Mantle, Mays, DiMaggio, etc.)…Based on his numbers compared to Puckett, may be a Hall of Famer down the road. I agree what will hurt Bernie is the surrounding cast he had when they went on their run.
Geez
Kill a sleepy writer for one mistake when he hasn’t finished his coffee. Man, it’s a tough crowd. LOL!!
Mattingly = Puckett?
Yes and no. They both up roughly the same BA/OBP/SLG, and had the same number of hits, home runs, and RBIs in roughly the same number of games and plate apperances.
Kirby Puckett is in the Hall of Fame because everybody assumed that had he not unexpectedly gone blind in one eye, he would have gone on to get 3,000 hits. I’m not sure it’s that far fetched – Puckett was still a very, very good player when he retired (130 OPS+ in his final season at age 35). Compare that to Mattingly, who was really just a shell of his former self over the second half of his career.
I know that...
By the same token, think you shoud read my post again, you missed the point!
by Great Gatsby on Mar 4, 2010 10:54 AM EST up reply actions
I think the difference is also that
Mattingly never won a playoff series and Puckett was instrumental in two World Series victories.
You also missed the point...
Never mind…
I think Bernie Williams...
…is a good reason why each team has its own hall of fame. Over all he was a very good player, but I would not say he should be in Copperstown. But how important was he to the Yankees in particular? That would be a different story.
Bernie is not a HOFer. One of my favorite players of all time (tough to be THEE favorite with Jeter, MO and Cervelli in the same organization), but c’mon.
Overall, yes, he was one of the best CFers in the league over the course of his career. But I just don’t think he’s a HOFer.
…doesn’t mean he’s not getting in either. Jim Rice and Andre Dawson getting in means that very good players have a chance (…sigh…)
Master of the squeegee
I think we all agree
Bernie was a great player from 1996-2002 but unfortunately he played in an era where guys were putting up numbers that dwarfed his. Regardless of what those other guys were doing to get those numbers, Bernie was never a top 10-15 offensive player in baseball and while he had great range in his prime and somehow won 3 gold gloves, his arm kept him from being more than an above average CF. The difference between him and guys like Rice and Dawson, who also shouldn’t be in, is that those guys hung around longer and accumulated better career numbers and also didn’t play in a ridiculous offensive era.
That being said, Bernie was stil the offensive anchor of one of the greatest teams of all time. He was a great Yankee and he should have his number retired.
by Let's Talk About Tex Baby on Mar 4, 2010 10:10 AM EST up reply actions
Love Bernie, not a Hall of Famer
In his prime he was one of the top 5 center fielders in the AL; however, he fell off too much at the end of his career. If Bernie had maybe four more productive years he might have gotten to 3000 hits. I don’t think the steroid era hurt him is much as being overshadowed by Ken Griffey Jr.
by upstateNYYFan1984 on Mar 4, 2010 10:16 AM EST reply actions
only if they add a music wing
I liked Bernie a lot, and he was a very important supporting cast member of your team, buthe was never the star. He doesn’t make the HOF in my opinion.
I have a problem
with the statement that the Hall is for the best of the best, for the players who dominated their position. Yes it should be, but you know as well as I do that isn’t the case. Orlando Cepeda wasn’t the best of the best at his position during his era, Billy Williams, Enos Slaughter, Joe Medwick, Richie Ashburn, etc. There are a lot of “very good” players already in the HOF. Have you ever looked at its members, other than the Mayses and Ruths and Williamses and checked out the stats of some of its members? Only a select few were actually the “very best of the best”. Bernie played the same position as Puckett and has better numbers and also won Gold Gloves. I don’t care to take supporting cast into consideration, that’s too subjective and really an inane way to judge a player. Bernie was the CF on 4 World Series Championship teams with HOF numbers. He won’t get in, but I think he should.
Great player ... doesn't necesarily mean HofF player ...
There’s all kinds of criteria that go into choosing a HofF player, and most of it starts around the media. I contend that Jim Rice, the most feared hitter of his day should have been selected long ago. His numbers are stellar. His attitude toward the media was not. He waited.
I think Bernie, Donnie, Bert, Jack, and even Moose were all great players … but for any of them to get the nod, it will take a big media push.
"Baseball is the background music of my life." -George Will
Not a HOFer but ...
That wasn’t the point …
I continue to feel the Hall is just another MLB money-grab. They have put way too many people that were Good not Great.
The point is whether they will give him (and others like him) a better chance because they were not juiced?
I don’t know .. I say … nope!
I really have no interest in who is in or not in the HOF. The voting system is antiquated and needs to be taken from the exclusive vote of the BBWAA, far too many of them have used the HOF vote to make a statement or in most cases get their personal FMoF award (Five minutes of fame) Until the Hall makes changes the 70 years old voting system and catches up with technology and with the times to include HOFers, Radio and TV broadcasters and reputable Internet Writers, (I feel the Writers that vote should be limited, They should only be Baseball Writers from major papers in Major League Cities, Internet Writers from sites like Yahoo sports and MLB Network etc…)
I will not be tantalized by who they pick and choose to be members and will not support the HOF as truly legit. The bottom line is the HOF is a museum so even some of the ‘’Very good’’ belong because of their contributions. In my view it is more of an honor to have your number retired and a stone erected in Yankee Stadium Monument Park. Take a look at a guy like David Eckstein, He will not get a sniff of the HOF but he is HOF in my book because of his heart, Its not just about the numbers…..My rant is over here.
You can take the man outta New York, but can never take New York outta the man!
Reggie Duncan
I think the HoF vote process works reasonably well(yes the last few years they’ve been letting questionable players in but every Hall of Fame as debatable players, thats half the fun of the Hall of Fame) and people are too willing to throw away traditions in todays sports. It takes 10 years of membership in the BBWAA to cast your votes for the Hall of Fame, it should be a small amount of respectable writers that need to earn the right to get a vote or else you’ll water down the Hall of Fame even more. They have started including internet writers from the major sports organizations(ESPN,SI,…). No offense to the writers on this fine site but random bloggers shouldn’t be getting to vote for an honor that a very few percentage of players will ever receive. It would be difficult to include people like TV/Radio broadcasters because they can be elected to the Hall, don’t you think some of them would vote for themselves calling question to the real legitimacy of the Hall. The best part about baseball are some of the traditions and how long it has been apart of this country. Don’t be so quick to change things just because you think they’re out of date.
Cal Ripken doesnt get in unanimously because some Bozo writer send in a blank ballot because he feels nobody should be unanimously. Guys like Jay Mariotti who admit to not voting and sending in blank ballots shoud be thrown out and lose their vote. You are 100% correct that things might get watered down with TV/ Radio guys voting, but you know what? those guys in the booth are at every game for the teams they broadcast for. Your saying that a legend in braodcasting like Vin Scully doesnt deserve a vote?(I guaruntee he has seen more baseball greats than any of the writers) One other thing is half of the guys in the booth are former players who have played the game. I would wager that the vast majority of the writers were always the last ones picked to play in a game or havent touched a baseball since high school.
Lastly, the vote was given to the BBWAA 70 years ago, All the teams were east of the Mississippi River (well St Louie is on the west bank of the river) and the writers traveled by train with the teams. Sorry but the Pony Express and trains are out of date, So is the HOF vote and the BBWAA monopoly on covering games. Think Obama! Its time for Change….(Well maybe not that kind of change…lol)
You can take the man outta New York, but can never take New York outta the man!
Reggie Duncan
by reggiedunc519 on Mar 4, 2010 7:16 PM EST up reply actions
Harrey Carrey, Vin Scully, and Jack Buck all great announcers never played the game and only covered one team at a time, even though it wasn’t possible to watch almost every game like it is today, so they didn’t get to see every player every year especially since there was no inter-league play. You’re right that people like Mariotti should have their vote taken away but the process as it is, works for me, sure there’s people that I don’t think should be in, but any change that waters down the Hall of Fame even more just keeps making the honor and the summer trip to Cooperstown less and less special. I understand you think it’s outdated but you know what baseball is outdated to an extant and that’s whats great about it. And if I thought like Obama then I’d only be making changes that don’t work.
LOL thanks for the reply Andrew, I understand your point
You can take the man outta New York, but can never take New York outta the man!
Reggie Duncan
by reggiedunc519 on Mar 4, 2010 10:23 PM EST up reply actions
Bernie for HOF!
The HOF has never, and will never be about being “the best of the best”! The HOF was, is, and for the foreseeable future a popularity contest. As long as the current voting system is in place where the players are selected by a handful of guys who use their vote to either award a player, or to “take a stand” against another, we will not have “the best of the best” in the HOF PERIOD! Now does Bernie deserve to be in…. I don’t know. Unfortunately I work with number crunching on a daily basis, so when it come to watching the two sports I love to enjoy, Football being the other (American football that is!!) I simply choose to watch the game and not worry about numbers and stats. It takes away from the enjoyment. Last comment, there are a LOT of guys in the HOF who benefited from a surrounding cast (that is why it’s called a TEAM sport), that should not be strike against anyone, but again as long as guys are selected with the current system…. it will be.
Bernie
Love him, one of my favorite Yankees all time. But while he is probably better than some recent inductees like Rice and Dawson, I wouldn’t put him in. If we put in anyone better than Rice, then we better move the Hall to a bigger venue.
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