Joba or Phil? Who ya got?
by Ed Valentine on Feb 3, 2010 10:00 AM EST
in New York Yankees News
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PrintThe New York Post stirred the 'Joba Chamberlain vs. Phil Hughes for 5th starter' pot this morning, so we might as well discuss it.
In a poll earlier this off-season we asked you who you would favor for the 5th starter between the two young New York Yankee right-handers. An overwhelming majority of 69% of you voted for Hughes.
If the Post is right -- and you do have to wonder if the good old NYP sometimes just makes stuff up -- then the Yankees organization quietly agrees with the majority here at PA.
The Yankees never would admit it publicly, but if the season were to begin today, Hughes would be in the rotation and Joba would be Mariano Rivera's primary set-up man -- and, perhaps, heir apparent.
For that to change, one of two issues probably must occur in spring:
1) Hughes flops (a possibility if he does not better hone a changeup), or,
2) A main veteran starter goes down (a possibility, especially considering the heavy workloads endured last season by CC Sabathia, A.J. Burnett and Andy Pettitte).
This is not easy for the Yanks. They truly have believed Chamberlain's pitch inventory was that of a starter. Plus, they have endured the criticism of the Joba Rules to navigate to this moment when he would have few restrictions as a starter.
But by morphing back into a confident, dart-throwing reliever in the postseason, Chamberlain has pushed the Yanks to more seriously consider that he might not have been suffering rotation growing pains and, instead, simply is more temperamentally built to work out of the pen.
I have thought about this question a lot, as I'm sure many of you have as well. I truly believe that both guys can succeed no matter which role they are placed in. Yet, a decision has to be made. So, as things stand now here is mine.
Hughes should start. Chamberlain should set up Mariano Rivera, and set his mind on becoming the closer once Rivera finally retires. In the end, that is the best way to maximize the obvious talent each possesses.
I truly believe that if both guys are starting pitchers for the next 5-7 years we will look and see that Chamberlain will be fine, but Hughes will likely be far more successful. I just believe he has starter stuff and a starter temperament. I also think that, ultimately, Chamberlain will break down.
I understood and defended the Yankees trying to find out what type of starter Chamberlain could be. We still don't really know, since he was so inconsistent in 2009. What we do know is that he is completely different coming out of the bullpen -- more aggressive, more emotional, throwing harder fastballs and sharper sliders. Joba is built for the high-wire act of baseball's late innings.
Your thoughts?
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My thoughts on this were the same as two years ago.
It is much, much harder to find quality starters than it is to find quality relievers. And, when you do find a quality starter on the market, the price is very, very high. Unless we agree that a back end starter is worth more than a late inning reliever and that a #3 starter is worth more than an elite closer in terms of value, we have nothing to discuss.
Joba
he has a year ahead in development. I think he has better stuff. The innings limit won’t mess with his head this year. It’s his spot to lose. He was very good against the Sox and Rays this year, which is promising. Send Hughes down to AAA until the ASB to work his innings and use him in the pen for the last half and playoffs. Next year he will start. Case closed.
Section 203 Row 15 Seat 1
by jramey on Feb 3, 2010 10:23 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Also, the "closer" talk is just plain silly.
You know who would make an excellent closer? CC Sabathia.
Think about it—he throws mid-nineties when he’s starting and has a knockout slider and change. OOMGZZ he would throw 100 in da pen! Talk about shutting the door!
/sarcasm
The closer talk isn't silly
First off CC is and established started proved himself effective year in and out soooo That comparison makes no sense. Joba has pitched VERY well out of the pen in his career and struggled as a starter for many reasons. So putting Joba in the pen does make sense….Not saying he should go there but it holds some water.
by DarthRichter on Feb 3, 2010 10:39 AM EST up reply actions
As a starter he has been
both lights out and terrible. On the whole, he’s been average. All I’m advocating is that the Yanks give him a chance to start before relegating him to bullpen duty.
Of course the CC comparison is hyperbolic as CC has established himself as a top starter. However, he was GIVEN a chance to become who he is now—Joba has not had a full, unrestricted season to start.
What if Pedro Martinez was never slotted back into the rotation after he debuted in the pen? What if the Twins just left Johan Santana in the bullpen?
His point is that you can take any good starter and put them in the pen
cuz pitching out of the pen is EASY.
You face batters one time, you can throw your fastball as hard as you can without holding anything back, you get brought into the game for guys that you match up well against, and you only need one peripheral pitch.
Saying Joba is more confident out of the pen is like saying the reason Phil Mickelson makes more tap in puts then 30 foot puts is that he’s more confident with the tap ins. Wrong! The tap ins are just easy.
This sticker is dangerous and inconvenient, but I do love Fig Newtons.
by Lord Duggan on Feb 3, 2010 12:15 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Closing is a little different
Yes, you can use fewer pitches. Yes, you can go all out and not hold back. But there is something to closing that starters don’t need to have-the ability to jump right into a game and shut the door. There is a lot of pressure, emotions and other factors that come down to closing. The team needs you to get 3 outs, and do it right away. Not have a slow first inning and then get used to the game and feel out the batters. Coming out of the bullpen is different.
I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious.
Vince Lombardi
Tandem
The best idea I’ve seen (the idea I like the best) so far is putting Joba and Hughes together as a team. I might support Hughes starting outright, but he didn’t have the innings last year to support him going a whole year as a starter. Instead, let each go 4 – 5 innings a start, letting Hughes take a lighter share sometimes to keep him from going to too many innings for the year. The two could total around 300 innings as a pair.
That wouldn’t be another Joba rules type thing, just trying to avoid the Verducci effect while maximizing the value of two young but good pitchers.
Let them both start during official meaningless exhibition games
and see how they look. If Hughes is handed the position after that, then are we to assume “Hughes Rules” limiting his innings? If not, then why did we bother with the Joba rules?
If another starter goes down for a few starts, isn’t that the reason we have Aceves and Gaudin? On the other hand, if one suffered a season- ending injury in April or May, then I would move the Hughes/ Chamberlain reliever out of the pen and let him grow into the starter’s role. If Andy Pettitte had a season- ending injury, he would probably retire anyway.
by designatedquitter on Feb 3, 2010 11:00 AM EST reply actions
+1
…and you do have to wonder if the good old NYP sometimes just makes stuff up…
lol
by Scooby Snacks on Feb 3, 2010 11:46 AM EST up reply actions
Let Joba start.
This is his year. It makes no sense to go back on him starting at least part of this year after all that crap he went through with the “Joba Rules”.
Give the guy a chance. I believe he can be effective. I just have a hard time believing that the Yankees will honestly make a decision based on starts he had last year with all those rules in place.
by Gelatin on Feb 3, 2010 11:15 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Put them both in the pen
I say put them both in the pen. That should give us the best bullpen in the east. Let Gaudin or whomever be the fifth and let it play out. Most teams have terrible 5th starters and don’t have anywhere near the offense or bullpen that the Yanks have. We can survive without a great number 5. With Joba, Hughes and Mo in the pen… get us to the 7th inning with a lead and it’s lights out.
by Gas-House Gorilla on Feb 3, 2010 11:39 AM EST reply actions
Boy wouldn't that be good
then when we’re down 6-2 going into the 6th inning because Gaudin is TERRIBLE, we’ll be reasonably certain that the other team won’t get any more runs.
The idea here is to take your better pitchers and have them pitch MORE innings. Joba and Hughes >>>> Gaudin and Mitre.
Pitching 200 innings out of the rotation is MORE valuable than 80 innings out of the pen.
This sticker is dangerous and inconvenient, but I do love Fig Newtons.
We had a good number of comeback wins last year
4 runs in 4 innings isn’t that hard for this offense to do… especially if the other team doesn’t score anymore.
by Gas-House Gorilla on Feb 3, 2010 2:54 PM EST up reply actions
The Yankees were great in late inning situations
but they had very few 4 run comebacks. There’s a reason for that.
by FloridaownsFSU on Feb 3, 2010 4:27 PM EST up reply actions
What about when CC or Vazquez goes past the 6th inning?
You are basically wasting a quality arm if you relegate one of Joba or Hughes to the setup-setup role.
But they throw harder and get strikeouts out of the bullpen
and that gets peoples man crushes going.
Who cares if it’s actually a smart idea? They get more strikeouts!
This sticker is dangerous and inconvenient, but I do love Fig Newtons.
yea...that makes sense...
you really don’t think Joba or Hughes are better then Gaudin or Mitre?
These 2 are prime SP prospects, always have been, for a reason.
You've got to be very careful if you don't know where you are going, because you might not get there
by FreeBradshaw on Feb 3, 2010 12:28 PM EST up reply actions
No, no, no
That’s not what I’m saying. Joba and Huges are definately better than Gaudin or Mitre… but they are also better than Abaladejo and Melancon.
by Gas-House Gorilla on Feb 3, 2010 3:00 PM EST up reply actions
True, but
what matters is how much they will contribute in their potential positions above the replacements we have. I believe they will add more value above Gaudin/Mitre in a starting role than they would above Albaladejo, Melancon, Gaudin or Mitre in the pen.
Abaladejo can get outs
so can Melancon.
1 inning can be done.
6-7 innings, like hopefully Joba and or Hughes are destined to do..is something Gaudin and Mitre won’t do.
The bullpen for many teams is a revolving door…cuz that’s what it is, its for retreads who have one or 2 good pitches that can get 3 outs. Guys have been effective in that role.
“locking down the bullpen for the next 10 years”…doesn’t exist outside the realm of MO and probably Hoffman..a couple others maybe…but they are very rare and usually they don’t come in the form of guys like Joba (i.e. hard throwers with nothing but power stuff).
You've got to be very careful if you don't know where you are going, because you might not get there
Gas-House Gorilla Is Right
Both Hughes and Chamberlain should go in the bullpen. Both have been mediocre as starters and excellent as relievers. While starters are more valuable than relievers, fifth starters (which is all Hughes or Chamberlain would be, unless another starter gets injured) are not as valuable as excellent relievers. Let them do what they do well. We have one great starter (Sabathia), two good starters (Burnett and Pettitte), and one average starter (Vasquez). Let Gaudin, Mitre and Aceves fight it out for the fifth spot in the rotation. If Hughes and Chamberlain are setting the table for Mariano in the bullpen, and if Marte continues his good performance from last year’s playoffs, the Yankees will have the most feared bullpen in baseball—as well as one of the top starting rotations.
by albanyattorney40 on Feb 3, 2010 2:12 PM EST up reply actions
Thanks albany
I just feel like whomever wins the 5th spot (between Hughes and Joba) is going to be scrutinized over every start. All season long we will hear how the other guy should be starting instead.
I’m not saying that either of these guys should be career relief pitchers. They can both still be starters. However, this team is tooled up for another championship run, with or without a top notch starter in the 5th spot. If the Yankee attitude is, “win now” then having a dominating bullpen might be something to think about.
Of course, a major injury to a starter voids this whole conversation.
by Gas-House Gorilla on Feb 3, 2010 2:58 PM EST up reply actions
Use whichever guy is more effective in the rotation for the regular season, then (like last season) move the 5th (and maybe even the 4th) starter to the pen for the post season.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
I ain;t getting into this...
but no, you cannot say they’ve been “mediocre as starters”.
Not nearly the sample size to get a conclusion on this, not even close.
They were starters their whole lives…they’re projected as starters cuz that’s what they’ve always done.
Joba’s had basically a full season, so if he can’t show anything here…then he probably should go to the pen (and its converting him to the pen….)
But Hughes and Joba were basically the Yankees #1 and #2 prospects..not cuz they are closers. Not cuz they are setup men…cuz they are starters.
You've got to be very careful if you don't know where you are going, because you might not get there
Fuc?ing A
Can I say that here?You have to give them a chance and not 1 screwed up half ass three quarter and shut you down start you up to shut down again either.If they then don’t project as quality starters then groom a closer.If nothing better then a #5 though I believe Joba would be more valuable shutting the door.
I feel like a clown without my funny nose.They say that dead men don't pull triggers,I will prove em wrong.
by cashman bashman on Feb 3, 2010 11:43 PM EST up reply actions
Not touching this one...no sir.
http://newyorksportsjerk.blogspot.com/
by New York Sports Jerk on Feb 3, 2010 11:42 AM EST reply actions
Yeah, really
I’ve always felt that Joba should be the set-up guy till Mariano retires and Joba takes over as closer. But if they both can be top notch starters…well, what do you do? If one of them is relegated to the pen, we may be losing a great starter in the process…
Hear you, David
This is a tough call. There really is no right or wrong answer. I think they both succeed no matter which role. The rest is just fun to speculate about, since it is February and all.
by Ed Valentine on Feb 3, 2010 11:50 AM EST up reply actions
LOL, SJ
Just not gonna get yourself into a fight. Ha! Good for you.
by Ed Valentine on Feb 3, 2010 11:49 AM EST up reply actions
My god i cannot wait for the season to start...
Between stuff about damon and this fight fot the 5th….(Though joba did go thru a lot of restrixtion stuff which it looks like may now have been for nothing)….There’s a lot of questions about our defending world champs…
Personally…keep hughes in the pen….put joba as a starter…He’s got the stuff for it….though iu can argue hughes may be better sutied mentally…
Truth be told if it were up to me (which it isn’t ofcourse)..i’d do just that….Joba , though not yet prooven, atleast showed us a 4 start long dominance before the staff got to messing with him after the all star break…
I will maintain that Joba will be a successful starter……iand to put it boldly….I hope joba prooves an ass load of people wrong….
-Announcemen Forwarded To The Following: Boston Blowsox, New York Pets, Philadelphia Phonies, And Any Other Team Who Ain't The With The Empire.................
Getcha' Fuccin Rings Up........
by NYYWinsRings27 on Feb 3, 2010 12:00 PM EST via mobile reply actions
If this happens
I will be so profoundly disappointed in the Yankees.
Closer is the most overrated position in baseball. Just because we have been lucky enough to have Mo doesn’t mean that we need a dominant 9th inning guy every year.
GOD! I just feel like canceling my season tickets (if I could ever afford them), and sending an angry letter from my iPhone.
This sticker is dangerous and inconvenient, but I do love Fig Newtons.
by Lord Duggan on Feb 3, 2010 12:12 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
+10000
I love Mo as much as the next guy but the closer position is so completely and utterly overrated it’s not even funny.
Overrated
till you reach the postseason and teams are more equally matched. How many championships might we have not had without Mo?
How about that span from 2001 to 2008 where we had Mo
but lost to teams with guys like Kim, Urbina, Jones, and Borowski closing? Clearly we had the better closer than all of those teams but the closer is irrelevant if you don’t have a lead to protect. That lead comes from the offense, defense, and starting pitching that play 6-8 FULL innings to the closer’s half inning.
A run in the 1st inning counts the same as a run in the 9th inning. Is there a psychological element to pitching in the 9th?—of course and it shouldn’t be ignored. However, that extra “pressure” is WAY overblown in the mainstream media that decrees that only demi-gods can pitch in the 9th inning.
I agree to a point
That’s why I’m torn on this question. Sure, I’d rather both of them be great starters and would like to see BOTH of them get their shot. I’d hate to see a great starter go to waste. My point was only that a great closer can, at times, be just as important. I get your argument, but surely it’s not Mo’s fault that the starters couldn’t do their job
Last year
CC Sabathia was roughly 10000x more valuable than Mo.
And I love Mo and he’s the greatest of all time at what he does.
Just what he does isn’t nearly as important as what people think.
This sticker is dangerous and inconvenient, but I do love Fig Newtons.
Mo
did get a save in 6 of CC’s regular season starts, 5 of those games being 2 runs or less, and saved 2 games in the post season. CC more valuable, probably, but 10000x? Probably not.
Three Times
I think CC was about 3 times as valuable as Mo last season. But if we’re using this to compare starters to relievers we have to remember that Mariano is quite possibly the best short outing pitcher baseball will ever see. Maybe a couple people like Randy Johnson could have been better closers, but the list isn’t long. Despite all that, in his best seasons Rivera was about as valuable as a 3-4th starter.
Joba and Hughes are good relievers, but Mo they aren’t. They’re unlikely to be even as valuable as a 5th starter at their best while being used in a full season of short outings. On the other hand, they’re both probably already the equivalent of a 4th starter if they get the chance.
So the greatest lockdown closer of all time
is worth two wins.
Yeah calling closers overrated is definitely crazy.
This sticker is dangerous and inconvenient, but I do love Fig Newtons.
Joba starts...
unless he doesn’t earn it.
Hughes is probably better off remaining a starter in AAA or something just to keep his arm in shape..but he helps the team as a BP guy right now.
If Joba can’t win the 5th spot in ST….maybe they do convert him into a SU man?
And no…no one’s getting “groomed” for the closer spot. You don’t get “groomed” for the closer spot as the setup man.
And yea..go ahead and mention “that’s what they did with MO”.
…I think Mariano Rivera’s a different sort of human then ANYONE else…..so this “closer grooming” is as irrelevant as the piss I just took.
You've got to be very careful if you don't know where you are going, because you might not get there
HA!!
You've got to be very careful if you don't know where you are going, because you might not get there
by FreeBradshaw on Feb 3, 2010 11:23 PM EST up reply actions
I really don't know why you guys just don't ask me how it will work?
If i’ve told you once i’ve told you a million times my given name was Nostodomeus.I have been sworn to secrecy but if you make checks payable to me I will give you some valuable forskin oops I mean forsight.
I feel like a clown without my funny nose.They say that dead men don't pull triggers,I will prove em wrong.
by cashman bashman on Feb 3, 2010 11:47 PM EST up reply actions
Joba should start
Hughes will still be on an innings limit, Joba won’t. I’m curious to see what Joba can do without workload restrictions, and if Hughes starts then in August we run into the same problem with him that we did with Joba last year.
Jobas best starts came after the AS break last year
once he was used to the routine of starting every five days. He only went downhill when they started messing with his schedule.
Leave Joba alone and he will be good for 175 innings and 3.50 ERA.
This sticker is dangerous and inconvenient, but I do love Fig Newtons.
Joba has been average as a starter while Hughes has been pretty terrible
but they’ve both been excellent pitching out of the pen, and yet there is this feeling that Hughes is more suited for the rotation and Joba for the pen.
Just because someone strikes people out and yells doesn’t mean that they have to go to the bullpen! This is just idiocy.
This sticker is dangerous and inconvenient, but I do love Fig Newtons.
It doesn't mean they're meant for the bullpen
but the fact that Joba didn’t do it when starting could be a sign that he calms his emotions down when pitching, something that made him successful as a bullpen guy.
I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious.
Vince Lombardi
I see what you did there.
http://newyorksportsjerk.blogspot.com/
by New York Sports Jerk on Feb 3, 2010 2:05 PM EST up reply actions
Wait..What?
I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious.
Vince Lombardi
That was not the comment I meant to reply to.
NOt sure how that happened.
http://newyorksportsjerk.blogspot.com/
by New York Sports Jerk on Feb 3, 2010 2:33 PM EST up reply actions
This isn't even a debate for 2010. Joba's the 5th guy this year.
IF he fails as a starter this year, then he’s our bullpen guy for the next decade.
I know, everyone just loves Joba’s attitude out of the pen but, the Yanks obviously believe in this guy as a starter so we should just trust that they know what they’re doing and root for him to have a great year! And i think he will.
2011 Joba will be our 4th starter and Phil Hughes will be our 5th with the “Hughes rules” in full effect.
Hughes to AAA until ASB
then back to the pen for the rest. that way he gets his innings in. Then we have our set up guy for down the stretch
Section 203 Row 15 Seat 1
Hughes for the 5th spot
and if he crumbles, like a couple of years ago, then move him to the pen or back down to AAA. Joba? He belongs in the pen. No question. That is where is he most effective and has the nastiest stuff. And he needs the grooming there to eventually replace Mo.
not this again
To think, if Kyle Farnsworth weren’t terrible, we never would be having this discussion.
by long time listener on Feb 3, 2010 1:16 PM EST reply actions
I was on the Hughes side of the debate
but now I’m siding towards Joba, because I believe that he still has the stuff that made him so good back in ’08 and parts of ’09, but needs to smooth out the consistency. Big IF, but if Joba becomes somewhat consistent, he can be very good.
HUGHES SHOULD NOT BE THE 5TH STARTER
he has an innings limit. do we really want to have to switch hughes to the bullpen mid season because he hit his innings limit? thats a joke. joba finally has no innings limit..FINALLY..do you really think that finally when he is free to pitch with no rules or limits they are going to throw him in the bullpen? no way. DOESNT JOBA DESERVE ATLEAST ONE SEASON OR PART OF A SEASON WITH NO INNINGS LIMIT AS A STARTER TO SHOW WHAT HE CAN DO?
unless joba pitches very poorly in spring training he is getting the job, it’s his job, there is no question or doubts about that.
Hughes doesn't have an innings limit either...
by FloridaownsFSU on Feb 3, 2010 4:28 PM EST up reply actions
He will.
He only thre 86 last season. They’re not gonna let him loose for 160 or 170 next year. No way no how. I know what the Verducci rule says but his last innings high was three years ago. He will have a cap. You can bet on that.
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
I like how the Joba bullpen/starter talks were banned
and people who wanted Joba in the pen were deemed stupid. Now everybody wants Joba to close. What happened?
I want Hughes to start next season, simply because he is projected to be an ace in the future, and doesn’t seem to have the “fire” Joba has. But what I want and what the Yankees FO wants are two completely different things: Hughes has an inning limit next season, Joba does not. It’s as simple as that. Hughes will start in the pen, with Joba getting the #5 role, barring an unforeseen breakout from either Mitre or Gaudin. Once somebody goes down, Hughes takes over. I’d bet a lot of money saying that will be the case next year.
I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious.
Vince Lombardi
Banned
At the time, we wanted to put a stop to it because it became an every day, all day topic to the point where it was nauseating. The topic is out there still, and now is as good a time as any to throw it on the table.
Can we count on another Johnny Damon piece from you tomorrow, Ed? It’s been three days.
by Scooby Snacks on Feb 3, 2010 3:36 PM EST up reply actions
The hiring of Johnny Damon as color commentator-referee in a barbed-wire, steel cage, tables, ladders, and folding chairs death match between Joba vs Hughes for #5 starter spot.
Will Damon officiate fairly or with bias towards a contender? The betting line? Travis G / Jscape early predictions?
by Scooby Snacks on Feb 3, 2010 4:10 PM EST up reply actions
I think
Damon would officiate fairly because he doesn’t want to burn that bridge back to the New York Yankees roster. Joba is the bulldog type, like Tyson, but Hughes has him on the reach. I think Joba will tie him up inside and land some good body shots but Hughes will land so many jabs while evading Joba’s attempts to tie him up that Joba would feel desperate and eventually try to take a bite out of Phil’s pitching arm, thus winning the 5th spot by default.
Closer Overrated?????
I can’t believe there are people calling the closer pos. overrated. We have been blessed with Mo, the greater closer in history. Don’t underestimate his impact on these teams. Do you think we would have had 5 rings since ‘96 without him?? Ask the Phillies if they’d rather have Rivera or Lidge. Or the mets with Wagner. There’d be no talk of yankees dynasty w/o Mo…Jeter would have just been a very good player, but with Mo at the end of games, Jete has had the chance to make history as one of the greatest shortstops ever, particularly in the playoffs – w/o Mo?? Who knows?
yes, overrated
As great as Mo is, he pitches about 70-75 innings per year. While many of those innings are high-stakes, some are not. A good closer’s value increases in the post-season, and you’re right to say the Yankees probably wouldn’t have had four championships if they’d had an average closer. But teams get in to the post-season all the time with lousy closers, and sometimes they get lucky and advance past a team with a good closer.
None of this diminishes what Rivera has accomplished, and if you could guarantee that either Joba or Hughes is going to give us 10-15 years with an ERA around 2.25, save about 90 percent of his chances, and be even better in the playoffs, I’d have to give serious thought to making that guy closer. But right now there are no guarantees that either guy will succeed as a starter OR a reliever. Since they’re going to pitch more innings as a starter, and since there’s no serious impediment to them starting right now, develop both guys toward an eye to keeping them in the rotation – not with an eye to them pitching, at most 70-80 innings per year.
by long time listener on Feb 3, 2010 2:50 PM EST up reply actions
Ummm, didn't the Phillies win a World Series with BRad Lide as the closer?
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
Yes.
The Brad Lidge who was 48/48 on save attempts in 2008.
The Phillies also won a pennant with the Brad Lidge who completely sucks.
by FloridaownsFSU on Feb 3, 2010 5:03 PM EST up reply actions
The Phillies were worse this year than last year
because Hollywood Hamels pitched about 100 more innings two years ago than any other year of his career and got worn down by playoff time last year.
I think that applies to multiple points I’m trying to make on this thread.
The Yankees saved Joba by limiting his innings, now he’s ready to be a full starter.
There is no excuse for Joba starting the season in the bullpen, I don’t care how he pitches in spring training.
This sticker is dangerous and inconvenient, but I do love Fig Newtons.
They should fight it out
but Joba should have a pretty big edge going into spring training, and Joba, in my mind should be the starter. The whole reason the Yankees went through all the innings crap last year for him was so that he could prepare to start this year, from start to finish, with no innings limits. We haven’t seen what type of starter Joba will be yet, because he hasn’t been given a big chance. Too small of a sample size, and too many variables with the innings going into it. This year, he can just go out and pitch. No innings limits. Nothing like that to worry about. If Joba goes to the bullpen, then everything the Yankees did last year would have been worthless.
I think that Joba would make a better reliever, but the Yankees seem to have him set as a starter and nothing will change their mind, except a serious breakdown of Joba or injuries. So don’t waste the work he put in last year, and give him his chance to start. If Hughes starts this year, not only will Joba’s work go to waste, but we’ll go through all the shit we went through in 2009 all over again. The “Hughes Rules”, innings limits. Joba is further along in his development. Let him finish his development as a starter before you start with Hughes. Because I’d rather have one project complete than two non-finished projects.
I do think there should be competition, and by all means, if Joba tanks in Spring Training, give it to Hughes. But, if Joba pitches anywhere remotely close to what Hughes does in Spring Training, then he should get the nod.
they should literally fight it out
On the last day of spring training, they fight on the pitcher’s mound with those giant padded q-tip things from American Gladiators. Loser goes to the bullpen. Two men enter, one starter leaves!
by long time listener on Feb 3, 2010 3:00 PM EST up reply actions
Like I've said before
If this is the biggest concern the Yankees have going into the 2010 season, then I feel REALLY good about our WS chances this year.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Feb 3, 2010 3:18 PM EST reply actions
steel cage match for the #5 spot!
Ed, i have to disagree that Joba should be groomed as Mo’s heir.
1. Mo is still the best closer in baseball. obviously he wont be forever, but 5 more years of above-average closing is well within the realm of possibility. if he a declines a bit, so what? he’d be the fifth best instead of the best?
2. Vazquez is only signed through 2010. what if he leaves after the season? we’ll need to fill his spot in 2011. if Joba doesn’t get more than 80 ip (which would be unlikely as a RP), how can we expect 200 in 2011?
3. what is a SP gets hurt? i’d much rather have Joba filling in than Mitre/Gaudin.
to all: closer IS overrated. the freakin DBacks won the WS with goddamn BH Kim ‘closing’ (in the loosest definition of the word) games. a closer CAN be very important, but not nearly as much as starting pitching.
at this point
i’d give the #5 spot to Joba simply bc he has no IP limits. he deserves that chance to go a full season without worrying about pitch counts and IP caps to see if he improves from last year. if he still fails to be an effective SP, then maybe we have this discussion in a year.
that said, the #5 spot should really go to whoever performs better in ST.
+1 to everything you said
except for the part where you said “whoever performs better in ST.”
This belongs to Joba or else everything that they’ve been doing for the past few years makes no sense.
This sticker is dangerous and inconvenient, but I do love Fig Newtons.
I think it's unfair
to keep jerking these guys back and forth. Joba can start, and do it well, and I’m OK if he does. And I agree he is a better starter than Gaudin. It’s just that I would prefer to see him put in one role and left there, rather than yo-yo’ed back and forth.
It’s a great debate with no real right or wrong answer.
He was a starter all year last year until the playoffs (and 1 game to prep for the playoffs)
He was a starter his whole career in the minor leagues.
He’s a starter.
This sticker is dangerous and inconvenient, but I do love Fig Newtons.
Agree 100%
Joba should be Mo’s set-up and heir apparant for the closer role when Mo retires. He’s better suited for the pen.
Hughes would make a better starter over time and should win #5 starter out of spring training. He should be alternated some with Gaudin to limit innings.
So he sometimes gets like 8-9 days of rest and sometimes 4?
Can’t say I’m on board with that plan. We have two guys who have about equal potential to be quality starters and and have shown to be roughly equally effective in the pen. One of them has an innings limit and the other doesn’t. How is this a tough choice? Jobe starts, Hughes to the pen.
Joba has proven that he's a mediocre starter, at best
He had quite a bit of success as a reliever; it is generally easier to relieve. (See The Book if you don’t believe that). Put him back in the pen and give Hughes a chance to start. I’m not sure Hughes will make it as a starter, either, but let him prove that he can’t do the job.
How on earth can you say "Joba has proved" anything
based on two fractured seasons of starting on training wheels in his early 20s?
Like how does it even happen without your keyboard stopping you?
This sticker is dangerous and inconvenient, but I do love Fig Newtons.
why don't you let Joba prove he can't do the job?
You've got to be very careful if you don't know where you are going, because you might not get there
I don't get it and the Francessa Factor
I don’t get why the majority of Yankee fans are married to the idea of Joba in the pen. Is it lack of patience for the fact that unlike relievers, most starters actually struggle for several years before gaining consistency? Is it the fact that Mike Francessa – who decided from day one that he disliked Joba because of the fist-pumping and didn’t want him to have a successful career as a starter – pounds at it for 5 hours a day during baseball season? Is it because of the baseless notion that someone who is fiery on the mound “has the mentality for the bullpen?” I really don’t get it.
I have nothing against Hughes and I want him to be a starter in the long term as well, but Joba has outpitched Hughes as a major league starter despite the fact that Hughes was allowed to make 62 starts in the minor leagues compared with 15 for Joba? I mean really. The guy made 15 minor league starts on strict pitch counts and got called up and thrown into the bullpen. He started 2008 in the bullpen and got “stretched” out in the majors because the Yankees didn’t want to face the fan reaction of starting him in the minors. Then in 2009, when he had a 3.7 ERA in late July he was told that from that point forward he’d be pitching once every 10 days. If anything Joba has performed exceptionally well despite being absolutely jerked around for 3 years.
And despite all this I see comments like “Joba has PROVEN that he’s a mediocre starter.” Really? Is Roy Halladay a proven mediocre starter because he had a 10.64 ERA in 2000? Is Randy Johnson mediocre because he walked 152 batters in 1992? Give me a break. Players, especially pitchers, need time to develop and Joba has not been given that time. Let him make 30 starts this year on normal rest and we’ll see how he does. As for Hughes, he should get the same opportunity in 2011 or this season if someone gets hurt. I really can’t believe how impatient most fans are.
by Let's Talk About Tex Baby on Feb 3, 2010 6:13 PM EST reply actions
But dude
he throws harder when he’s in the pen.
Don’t let all of that logic get in your way of realizing what baseball is all about.
This sticker is dangerous and inconvenient, but I do love Fig Newtons.
lets talk about tex baby - totally agree(awesome name also)
i totally agree. starting pitchers is like the quarterback position. it takes time. but another very important factor in all this is that i really think he was effected by the pitch count in the way he pitched and approached games. it just has to be real tough to put together a good game plan out there when you know when you hit this amount of pitches your out of the game. if they move him to the bullpen this year WITHOUT EVER GIVING HIM A YEAR IN THE ROTATION WITHOUT an innings limit i think thats possibly one of the worst decisions the yankees have made. its just a joke that people think the opposite
Decisions, decisions ...
Put ‘em both in the pen, and give the 5th spot to Scranton’s winningest pitcher, Kei Igawa.
After several starts and an ERA approaching the GNP of several small countries, we’ll be grateful that we have choices for the 5th spot.
"Baseball is the background music of my life." -George Will
Its Joba's job to lose
If Phil blows through Spring Training, the job is his. Its really not as complicated as some people make it. I believe the way Joba finished 2009 raised some red flags on Joba is “future starter” thing.
But on the other hand, the Yankees are turning him loose this year, so he gets his complete shot at it right?
Anybody in the mood for a repeat?
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