A Closer Look at the Already Overdone "Who Should Bat Second?" Argument
After the Johnny Damon drama finally ended and we all (well, most of us) got sick of arguing whether Joba Chamberlain or Phil Hughes belongs in the rotation and why, most of the attention here on Pinstripe Alley has turned to who should bat second. I suppose it is a better argument than the Joba-Hughes argument since some of us aren't quite completely rooted in our own ideals thus it still is just that: an argument.
The popular suggestions so far have been either Curtis Granderson (because of his speed) and Nick Johnson (because of the astronomical on base percentage). Traditional knowledge tells us that the first two hitters should be able to steal bases, but sabermetric knowledge has more or less thrown that out the window in favor of on base percentage. I decided to take a closer look at each player's hitting based on how the first inning would play out.
One of the reasons Derek Jeter was moved from the 2-hole to leadoff in 2009 was that his groundball percentage was higher than Damon's: 55.8% to 44.9%, respectively. The idea being that there will be fewer chances to turn a double play if they man batting second grounds out less often. There is a similarly big gap between the two candidates for 2010: Johnson's 43.6% rate vs. Granderson's 36.3%. If we combine these numbers with Jeter's career OBP of .388, we find that the percentage of time that each player would be hitting grounders while Jeter is on first: Johson 16.9%, Granderson 14.1%. Regardless, we'd expect it to be lower than what Damon did last year as his GB% was higher than both of this year's candidates.
I took these numbers and multiplied them by their career GIDP/GB% which for Johnson was 8.36% and for Granderson was 2.54%. If we multiply them by how often they would hit ground balls with Jeter on first, we'd find an expected GIDP% of roughly 1.41% by Johnson and 0.36% by Granderson. Over the course of a season, only looking at the first inning, it's essentially 2 GIDPS or less than 1.
Johnson's (.402) has the far superior OBP than Granderson (.344). Comparing these to Damon's mark last year of (.365), it appears we would be downgrading a bit with Granderson and upgrading a good deal with Johnson. If we combine these numbers with the GIPD% and Jeter's career OBP, we'd expect Mark Teixeira to come up with at least one runner on base about 77.6% of the time with Johnson batting second vs. 72.8% of the time with Granderson there. This difference of almost 5% means that in a full season, Teixeira would have nobody on about 8 times more often with Granderson instead of Johnson in the first inning.
The last thing I wanted to look at was Granderson's speed. Granderson steals a base about 2.3% of the time based on his career plate appearances. Of course with Jeter being on base 38.8% of the time in front of him, the amount of opportunities he would have to take second would be smaller; only about .9% of the time. I don't find that his speed comes into play enough to even come close to outweigh Johnson's OBP. However, the ability of Granderson to score from 1st or 2nd is important to keep in mind.
Of course this argument can go many different ways, including but not limited to, looking at how Granderson's power might play better in the lineup elsewhere, and how his platoon split might call for him to only bat second against righties. Regardless, Cashman did say that Johnson was an ideal #2 hitter, so for the time being (i.e. until Johnson finds himself on the DL) I'm going with that.
Either way, I think both sides of this argument are exaggerating their points a tad too much; either comparing Johnson's speed to that of a retired person with two broken legs or Granderson's ability to get to first base to that of a 14 year old snot nosed kid going through puberty.
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Nick Johnson should be our #2 hitter.
His OBP/BA is just too good.
Part of Granderson's
criticism stems from him trying to pull the ball and hit it out every time up. With him in the two hole, with some good coaching, maybe his approach would be different and perhaps getting better results. If he’s somewhere in the lineup where he’s expected to drive in runs his approach may be back to trying to pull and yank everything out of the park. I just don’t think he’s the kind of hitter who likes to be depended upon to drive in runs. I still believe he, on this team, is better suited to bat second.
One can just as easily argue that, Granderson’s tendencies to go for the home-runs is not necessarily a by-product of the position at which he bats, but rather the bats he had around him on his team. The Detroit Tigers never really had a combo like Tex/Arod, capable of putting up 250-300 runs on the board.
by Vancouverguy on Feb 23, 2010 9:19 PM EST up reply actions
You mean like Miguel Cabrera and Magglio Ordonez?
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
There's just no excuse for taking someone with the OBP potention of Johnson
and not batting him in front of A-Rod and Tex.
Even if NJ gets injured, I would much rather see Swisher get a shot at #2 before Granderson.
I think Granderson is going to have a huge year, and I’m not down on him at all, but I think he’s going to be better suited clearing the table than setting it, especially at Yankee Stadium vs. RHP.
Trying to force him to be a table setter when that doesn’t match his skill set just because he can run fast is just stupid.
This sticker is dangerous and inconvenient, but I do love Fig Newtons.
What Will Really Happen
Johnson will start the season in the 2-hole but inevitably get injured at some point. As a result Granderson or someone else will fall into the 2 spot.
by theconquistadore on Feb 23, 2010 4:36 PM EST reply actions
I'd expect at least a 75% drop in
the odds of him getting injured since he’s pretty much strictly a DH this year. Which, for Johnson I guess that means he will go from 100% chance of injury to 25% chance.
by Leviticus6688 on Feb 23, 2010 5:49 PM EST up reply actions
2 Hole
We would not have signed NJ if the goal was for him to get on base at the bottom of the line-up.
The plan was to replace Damon’s gritt from the 2-hole and NJ has the best chance to do this.
Shoot one would think that if Jeter gets on safely to start the inning that NJ would get some fat pitches in front of Tex/Arod. His OBP should rise to even greater heights
yeah but he can't walk his way on everytime like he did with FLA and WSH
he’s going to have to hit, they aren’t going to “deliberately” walk him because the next 2 batters are MVP candidates.
Section 203 Row 15 Seat 1
Very true,
pitches will be much less inclined to “pitch around” him. He’ll likely get a healthier diet of fastballs as I’m sure opposing pitchers will try to induce ground balls. To see a slight rise in avg. and slight decrease in walk rate wouldn’t surprise me.
by Leviticus6688 on Feb 23, 2010 5:47 PM EST up reply actions
While I think NJ is #2 until proven otherwise as I posted above
I think that as you guys have said, a hitter like him is probably most effective when pitchers throw him a lot of balls.
Nobody is going to want to throw Nick Johnson ball 4 if he’s got Tex and A-Rod behind him. Last year Damon was enough of a batting (power) threat to stop a pitcher from just grooving him one and relying on their defense. Will Johnson be?
We shall see. I think NJ has a good change to hit .300, but probably won’t OPS .400.
This sticker is dangerous and inconvenient, but I do love Fig Newtons.
Indeed.
Although I think you mean OBP .400. :-)
The only person with a sub .400 OPS is Angel Berroa.
by Leviticus6688 on Feb 23, 2010 7:47 PM EST up reply actions
Yes I did mean OBP and not OPS
I mean, the dude’s not Jason Varitek or anything….
This sticker is dangerous and inconvenient, but I do love Fig Newtons.
Baserunning & sliding skills for Johnson
That is the most lilkely way he’ll get hurt. So train him
He bats second until it is proven not to work..
Johnson in the 2 hole equals
LOG JAM.
No speed Kills.
You saw how well that theory worked… put ‘em on the big bats will drive ’em home. Lots of years of early exits from the playoffs. Added pressure on those 3 and 4 hitters to win it all goes away from what just helped us to win last year.
keep some speed in front of those MVP candidates, it helps keep starters off balance if they gotta worry about baby grand, jetes, or hell, even Gardy on some platoon days, taking a base on them and ending the double play possibility.
OBP is nice but it’s equally effective later in the line up, say right after Arod.
If you ask me this guy is a Matsui upgrade not a Damon upgrade… Let’s stick with what worked (formula wise) last year
Did you read the article?
As I found out, 2 double plays instead of 1 over the course of an entire year. Is that really worth having a 5% greater chance of Teix coming up with 2 out and none on?
by Leviticus6688 on Feb 23, 2010 10:34 PM EST up reply actions
yup
and numbers are fine and in baseball they are a pretty good indicator of things. But when arod ips a double down the line with 2 out and nick johnson barely makes it to 3rd from 1st i don’t know if there is a number that would back my argument better than the run we will have left on the board
A-Rod hits into a lot of double-plays
and Teixeira is slow, batting in front of of him. Maybe Gardner should hit 3rd?
Tex would lose to just about everyone in a footrace (except maybe Posada or Johnson). Let’s get rid of all those guys and just get a bunch of really fast slap hitters.
Oh wait, now I remember. There’s a lot more to baseball than being able to run fast in a straight line…..weird….
This sticker is dangerous and inconvenient, but I do love Fig Newtons.
not what i'm sayin
when your thumpers get up… lets try to give them the best chance to drive people in. not to third… this worked for us with Johnny in the 2, why change that when you’ve got a guy in the mold of Damon.
Just my opinion, but i think we’re better served with Grand near the top and Nick (whom i like alot) in the 5 filling the hole left by Matsui who also couldn’t run.
I could be wrong, and so could you, but that’s why it’s fun to yell at Girardi throughout the season. Whatever the decision lets hope we’re all happy with it come October.
The thumpers have a better chance to drive in people
who are standing on first or second base, not sitting in the dugout clapping.
Johnson can’t hit 5th because he doesn’t have Matsui’s power and RBI potential.
This sticker is dangerous and inconvenient, but I do love Fig Newtons.
haha
finally! We can sign Carlos Gomez to bat cleanup too. Jackie Joyner-Kersie will be in RF and batting 5th, and then maybe Ben Johnson can play some first in place of Teixeira. That’s 1000 runs on the season guaranteed!
by Leviticus6688 on Feb 24, 2010 3:20 PM EST up reply actions
maybe
we should get brock lessner, butterbean, and big (from rob and big) instead.
speed ain’t everything but hey, it doesn’t hurt.
and I have full confidence that Joe and those that know alot more than any of us will figure out which way to go with this
OBP isn't maximized when it is utilized in front of hitters inferior to Tex and Arod
It’s pretty simple.
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
by CasanovaWong on Feb 23, 2010 11:34 PM EST up reply actions
My goodness
Some of you guys act like Johnson is some kind God and Savior for this team. He ain’t all that. “2 double plays instead of 1”, because some thought up stat says so? I will bet Johnson leads the team in GIDP’s if he hits second for the majority of the year…Any takers? Granderson second, please.
Won't he hit into even more if he is hitting behind Tex And Arod
considering they both get on base more than Jeter and Gardner?
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
by CasanovaWong on Feb 24, 2010 1:49 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah
I hadn’t really compared him batting 2nd to him batting 5th. But that does make a lot of sense. Although apparently his GB% is just “some thought up stat”.
by Leviticus6688 on Feb 24, 2010 10:01 AM EST up reply actions
A hang nail
will keep Johnson on the DL. Worn out argument, but Cashman should have kept Damon. At least that warrior would have played hurt, would have produced, and would have given the Yankees extra time to replace him with not just a fill in. NJ will sit……Grandy ultimately moves to second batter.
NJ 2 Hole
He is a ML league hitter. If he is getting more fastballs then he can zone in. He will get more hits as you suggest. Not a major issue. One last thought is if he is on base x amount of the time in front of TEx and Arod who will lead the club in total HR’s. Each time one of them hits a HR he can walk around the bases. Ohh baby. Yankee Baseball! Lets play ball.
I think they are making this competitive to pump Joba up for the season and really make him work.
The past 2 years were useless if they don’t drop him at #5. Hughes can pitch AAA until ASB then finish his innings in the bigs. Next year, if Andy retires, Hughes will be ready to step in. This is mostly forgotten, but Joba was very, very good against the BoSox and Rays last year, which is very important in what should be a close race.
Section 203 Row 15 Seat 1
Keep Joba out of this thread. He already has 2 of his own.
Besides, who hits 5th is more important than who hits second. All of the arguments so far make valid points- OBP vs. speed etc.. But having someone in the fifth spot who can protect ARod from being intentionally walked 50 times is more important.
by designatedquitter on Feb 25, 2010 10:57 AM EST reply actions
Which, in my mind, means Posada. Yes, Cano can hit, but he doesn’t scare anyone, especially since he’s horrendous with guys on base. Opposing pitchers know Posada can take them out at any time, from both sides of the plate.
Good, who cares if Cano doesn't scare anybody?
That means they’ll try and pitch to them and he’ll smack the shit out of the ball.
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
by CasanovaWong on Feb 25, 2010 1:40 PM EST up reply actions
It means
they’ll be more likely to pitch around A-Rod or intentionally walk him to pitch to Cano. Would you rather a pitcher feel he has to pitch to A-Rod or walk him and face Cano? Plus, genius, Posada is a switch hitter.
Don't get sassy, especially when the crux of your argument is based on "teh fear"
Teams can IBB Arod all they want. Then Cano will come to the plate and .320/.352/.520 their asses and they’ll regret it. Using your logic Posada is still “feared” less than Arod so wouldn’t teams be just as likely to walk Arod if Posada was behind him? I don’t really give a shit who hit’s 5-9 because any alignment is going to mash the crap out of the ball. However, the notion that Cano, shouldn’t hit behind Arod because he isn’t as feared is silly. He’s a really good hitter who, if it weren’t for atrocious luck with men on base, would have been an MVP candidate last year.
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
by CasanovaWong on Feb 25, 2010 3:39 PM EST up reply actions
And for the record, Cano is .300 /.341/.453 for his career vs lefties. 309 /.335/.541 last year.
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
by CasanovaWong on Feb 25, 2010 3:46 PM EST up reply actions
+1
Excellent point(s), especially the one about the 5-9 hitters. The order matters little, we’ll score gobs of runs regardless.
As for Cano, I think he tried to hard in RISP situations and had horrible luck as well. He’s already come a long way as a hitter and will continue to progress.
by Leviticus6688 on Feb 26, 2010 1:25 AM EST up reply actions
Sssssssassy
You may be right. I guess I’m stuck on his inability to hit w/RISP. If he gets over that, yes, Cano probably would be great in that spot. I’ve said before, I think he’s capable of .350, 25, 120.
I'm thinking Posada 5th as well.
On the days Cervelli catches, I could see Cano or Granderson hitting 5th. This assumes that Posada is not the DH. Neither Swisher nor Nick Johnson (whom Girardi already has said would hit 2 or 7) seems like protection for ARod, as a lot of their value comes from OBP, not RBI.
by designatedquitter on Feb 25, 2010 1:59 PM EST reply actions
The only problem with Posada 5th
Is it makes it harder to split up the lefties. There would have to be some combo of Cano-Granderson-Gardner batting back to back.
by Let's Talk About Tex Baby on Feb 25, 2010 2:27 PM EST reply actions
I'm on the
Granderson batting second side of this debate.
Jeter
Granderson
Tex
A-Rod
Posada
Cano
Swisher
Johnson
Gardner
Johnson/Swish, interchangeable.
Consistent line-up
Although not that important, having a set spot in the order is one less thing to think about coming to the park. Lefty Cano bats 5th, switch hitter 6th, Granderson 7th. Soon enough Girardi will see the appropriate #6 hitter is Swisher, not Posada. Posada/Cervelli bats 8th, breaking up L-Granderson and L-Gardner. When #2 Johnson goes on the DL, the Granderson/Winn platoon can bat second while everyone else stays put…allowing Jesus to bat 7th and DH.

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