The White Sox and Yankees: The Silly Trade Proposal That Will Not Die
by jscape2000 on Dec 19, 2010 2:30 PM EST
in New York Yankees Analysis
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Print"The Yankees should get John Danks or Gavin Floyd from the White Sox to take a spot in the rotation."
I keep hearing this trade proposal in the comments here and on other forums and I don't understand it.
The White Sox's 1-4 are not the Phillies or Giants, their rotation looks as good as nearly any AL team. The perennially underrated Mark Buehrle (210 IP) would be as big a fan favorite as Andy Pettitte if he pitched in New York, John Danks (213 IP) is only entering his second year of arbitration eligibility at age 26, and Gavin Floyd (187 IP) is only going to make $21.5M over the next 3 years if the White Sox pick up his $9.5M option for 2013 (oh, and he'll be 28 in 2011). To round out their rotation, Edwin Jackson is in his contract year and the ChiSox are hoping for a strong return from former Cy Young winner Jake Peavy.
Their bullpen may well be improved by the departure of Bobby Jenks. They just took Jesse Crain off the Twins and added him to their pen.
They just spent $40M to re-sign Paul Konerko and AJ Piersynski, and another $56M to add Adam Dunn to the heart of their lineup.
And most of all- they finished 6 games back of Minnesota because they went 5-13 in their head to head matchups: if the White Sox improve that to 9-9 they win the division by a game; flip those numbers, and the White Sox win the division by 10, matching the Rays for AL win total at 96. Why should the White Sox think they can't do that?
They White Sox are all-in for 2011. They're not sending us their best pitcher, especially not for the kind of fringe prospects package that gets kicked around in the comments here.
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I say Floyd because
a writer here brought it up and I haven’t got it out of my head. I stated once it’d might not be likely because the Sox think they can win. Still I thought there was hope.
"Don't give up, don't ever give up."
Because we are the Yankees and every team wants Joba
Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.
by YankeesJets on Dec 19, 2010 3:06 PM EST reply actions 5 recs
It amazes me how some people here overvalue him
and think that he’s the centerpiece to a huge trade for us, he’s a reliever, teams aren’t going to look at him the same any more. Joba and a prospect might get us a Randy Wolf type pitcher or a backup outfielder, nothing close to a 1 or 2 starter.
While he has very little trade value
I’d imagine that any other team that’s not the Phillies with their crazy rotation would give him a chance to start, I mean the Tigers are giving Phil Coke a chance to start! I think any team that gets him will try to make him into a steal
Better hope Coke never gets traded to Texas, Ron Washington would abuse him.
Russell Martin is just like the Jewish Pharisees, trying to keep Jesus down.
by Wraithpk on Dec 19, 2010 8:17 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
what you have done there
i have seen
So I was sitting on the couch, watching Brief Encounter...
by Brian5517209 on Dec 19, 2010 9:18 PM EST up reply actions
Haha, my bad
I guess you forgot to recommend it? I did it too and it ain’t green.
I get a sinking feeling that people are overreacting. You do realize the offseason isn’t over, right?
Writer for Pinstripe Alley, MLB Daily Dish
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
and you do realize this is the same team minus Vazquez plus Feliciano as the team that made it to the ALCS?
Writer for Pinstripe Alley, MLB Daily Dish
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
-1
for responding to yourself.
The content of your analysis, on the other hand, get’s a +1.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
OK
Do you think the team we have right now can win a WS? We need starting pitching, and Pettitte still isn’t a Yankee, so that leaves us with 2 empty slots. Cashman seems adamant on not starting Joba, regardless of the poor logic behind that. The only starter that would play a solid upgrade that’s available is Pavano, and it seems that nobody wants anything to do with him.
by Monotonousblob on Dec 19, 2010 4:23 PM EST up reply actions
If Pettitte re-signs the Yankees are instantly a contender again, in my opinion. If he doesn’t they simply have a bad rotation, then trade for a pitcher from a random team that doesn’t play well the first half of the year and they have another good pitcher. I’m not really worried about it, it’s the Yankees, and it’s baseball. Good pitchers become available before it’s too late.
Writer for Pinstripe Alley, MLB Daily Dish
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
I’m not even sure they have a “bad” rotation without Pettitte. I think Hughes was mostly out of gas at the end of the season, and AJ will be good half the time.
On the other hand, I wouldn’t pin so much on Pettitte. I don’t think they’ll get any more innings out of him than they did last year and probably significantly less just because of his age.
Usqueadbaugham! Anam muck an dhoul ! Did ye drink me doornail?
We can’t rely on Petitte to fix things he is too old at this point to be a difference maker as much as I hate to say it. We need to rely on young guys with potential but not overwork them and ruin them. We have stars still and we can improve when teams know we aren’t begging
by Kmillz2525 on Dec 19, 2010 4:41 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
What do you have against old people? You know you are going to be one someday
Russell Martin is just like the Jewish Pharisees, trying to keep Jesus down.
I’m not going to be making millions to win games though lol and nothing but sports is a cut throat game that once you get to old you can’t keep up
by Kmillz2525 on Dec 19, 2010 9:27 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
tell that to Rivera
So I was sitting on the couch, watching Brief Encounter...
by Brian5517209 on Dec 19, 2010 9:28 PM EST up reply actions
He’s young in terms of arm years. He’s closed for his whole career so not a lot innings and has a smooth delivery so no major arm injuries. Also he is a work out master who treats his body like its worth the 15 mill he gets paid
by Kmillz2525 on Dec 19, 2010 9:35 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Starting joba will mess him up you can’t just flip flop him every year and expect good things! Its insane to let him start again now
by Kmillz2525 on Dec 19, 2010 4:36 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
He should have been starting to begin with.
And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Dec 19, 2010 7:27 PM EST up reply actions
Well duh but he’s a set up man now and we can’t change that
by Kmillz2525 on Dec 19, 2010 9:28 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Actually, he isn't.
And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Dec 19, 2010 9:44 PM EST up reply actions
Ok well he will be if we don’t get a decent righty to set up. Sorry he’s a reliever
by Kmillz2525 on Dec 19, 2010 9:48 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Because the Yankees decided to banish him to the pen for no reason.
It’s not insane to let him start again when that’s all he should have been doing. It’s insane for Cashman to be set in his ways of not letting him.
And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Dec 19, 2010 9:50 PM EST up reply actions
Its insane to pay people the way we do but hey we do. And he looked damn good as a starter and as a reliever no doubt but cashman has just figured out that joba can’t move back and forth it messes him up for awhile then he dominates. I think we should have let him and hughes start last year but we didn’t
by Kmillz2525 on Dec 19, 2010 9:54 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Doing things wrong doesn't justify doing more things wrong.
And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Dec 19, 2010 9:56 PM EST up reply actions
All I’m saying is that we can’t move him back at this point cause it will be joba rules all over again and he will take 2 steps back and we have to wait another year to get him ready so let’s just let him stay put this year
by Kmillz2525 on Dec 19, 2010 9:58 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Well since we have so much depth at starting pitching, I'm sure it won't be an issue.
At all.
And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Dec 19, 2010 9:59 PM EST up reply actions
No, it wouldn’t be. As Joba now has a 157 inning year under his belt, Cashman has publicly said that there will be no more innings limitation.
There is no reason whatsoever that he couldn’t be a starting pitcher in 2011.
by Lord Duggan on Dec 19, 2010 10:00 PM EST up reply actions
Your tellling me a limited innings reliever who is just getting bsck to coming out throwing gas can just flip a switch and be a starter again? Maybe we should have kept wood and started him or told rivera he’s starting
by Kmillz2525 on Dec 19, 2010 10:05 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
He’s been a starter his whole career, chief. There is no “switch.”
by Lord Duggan on Dec 19, 2010 10:09 PM EST up reply actions
You mean last year and the year with the bug incident he was starting? Cause I could of swore he was coming out of the pen. I get he has started in his career but not since the year before last and he didn’t look like CC specially the later it got and he couldn’t last more than 6 inning
by Kmillz2525 on Dec 19, 2010 10:15 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
By his whole career, I meant high school, college, and the minors. He was transitioned into the bullpen, not the other way around.
by Lord Duggan on Dec 19, 2010 10:16 PM EST up reply actions
Well yes I get that but I want the joba throwing 98 mph fastballs and nasty breaking pitches out of the pen to get the ball to lights out MO if he can be like broxtan or however its spelld from the dodgers and take over for MO after next year then his potential is being used properly as the future closer something we will need
by Kmillz2525 on Dec 19, 2010 10:21 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
True. Statement.
And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Dec 19, 2010 10:24 PM EST up reply actions
Well duh but I meant they have similar stuff
by Kmillz2525 on Dec 19, 2010 10:38 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
You want to use his potential and have him contribute the most by throwing 70 innings instead of 180?
That’s completely backwards. A mediocre starter is more valuable to a team than an excellent reliever, and Joba has shown that he can be better than mediocre.
by Lord Duggan on Dec 19, 2010 10:24 PM EST up reply actions
We aren’t even really disagreeing lol I want him to be a starter but I live with the fact he won’t be. We got other starters I want to watch so joba being in the pen will extend his career and give him a chance to be better imo just by watching a limted amount of starting and setting up. Not saying in anyway I don’t wish he and hughes got to start last year cause that woould have been a lot better
by Kmillz2525 on Dec 19, 2010 10:41 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
We actually don't have other starters.
That’s kind of the problem.
And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Dec 19, 2010 10:43 PM EST up reply actions
I agree it shouldn’t be a problem specially with young stud pitchers like we have. It makes way more sense to let a guy who’s been a SP in the minors move into our 5 spot rather than move a reliever back to starting cause then we have a whole there instead
by Kmillz2525 on Dec 19, 2010 10:12 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Really? Some on that’s just stupid why not just let joba pitch out of the pen then he looks amazing when he’s got it and un hittable. Didn’t exactly look the same starting and didn’t always pitch to far into the game
by Kmillz2525 on Dec 19, 2010 10:17 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Why don't we throw CC in the pen?
Wait. He’s a starter!
And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Dec 19, 2010 10:18 PM EST up reply actions
CC isn’t going to be what CC is out of the pen. A work horse who eats innings and pitches solid. Joba wasn’t a cy young pitcher when he started sorry but he was just good nothing more nothing less. Out of the pen he is scary amazing you only get guys like that once in a great while he could be almost to Mo’s level in terms of closing
by Kmillz2525 on Dec 19, 2010 10:24 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Joba can be equally good if they'd let him start.
And, amazingly enough, he’d be good for more innings. Girardi basically hates him, so I don’t really see all this “HE’S SO GOOD OUT OF THE PEN” stuff being part of reality.
And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Dec 19, 2010 10:27 PM EST up reply actions
Noo I haven’t watched those over and over lol but I do see more potential when he is a reliever than starter. He just never found the rythme he had in the pen as a closer but I agree he could have been a stud starter but I’m sick of moving him back and forth. And I doubt girardi would say hey I hate this guy I’m not letting him win me games. Joba needs to be our closer of the future that’s the bottom line cuase we don’t have many other options
by Kmillz2525 on Dec 19, 2010 10:32 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Kids, this is what happens when you watch replays of 24 innings in 2007 over and over again and don’t use your brain.
by Lord Duggan on Dec 19, 2010 10:27 PM EST up reply actions
Pffft, that's totally long enough to decide someone isn't a Cy Young type pitcher
And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Dec 19, 2010 10:31 PM EST up reply actions
Bleh, it cut it off.
That’s totally long enough to decide some pitchers aren’t ever going to be Cy Young winners. /sarcasm font
And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Dec 19, 2010 10:33 PM EST up reply actions
I’m not saying he couldn’t be just saying he didn’t look like he had the starter attitude at that pooint he got flustered when people were on base and his fastball was more of a decent fastball. His location ability wasn’t good enough to get by with the pitches he had at those speeds now at 98 he is fine
by Kmillz2525 on Dec 19, 2010 10:36 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Pitchers always have better numbers out of the pen. You only have to pitch one inning, so you can go all out, and batters don’t get to see you twice, so you only need to throw like two pitches. If Joba can develop his changeup and two seamer, he should be starting, unless they just don’t think he has the stamina to do it
Russell Martin is just like the Jewish Pharisees, trying to keep Jesus down.
Pitchers always put up better numbers out of the pen because it’s easier and less important.
by Lord Duggan on Dec 19, 2010 10:38 PM EST up reply actions
See IF he could do this. But IF he can’t then what? We send him back to the pen? IF we signed brandon webb and he returned to cy young like form we would be awesome but it probably won’t happen. Joba is a 2 to 3 pitch pitcher so let him use thoe where he can be most effective and let a 4 to 5 pitch pitcher be the starter
by Kmillz2525 on Dec 19, 2010 10:45 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I think the bigger question mark with Joba is his stamina. If the Yankees are refusing to let him start when we clearly need a starter, maybe they just don’t think he has good enough stamina to last deep into games?
Russell Martin is just like the Jewish Pharisees, trying to keep Jesus down.
Well I don’t think he does atleast not in terms of being albe to stay healthy and pitch multiple inning every fifth game. He seemed to really have a hard time pitching past the 6th he just looked dead but then again I saw him throw 97 in the 5th so idk he’s odd
by Kmillz2525 on Dec 19, 2010 10:54 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
whaaa? whats your point here. You just seem to be flip flopping, you said before Joba should have been a starter, but now he’s better off as a reliever?
Yes he SHOULD have been
But we messed that up this year when we sent him back to the pen. So now he needs to go back to the unhittable set up man he was and future closer. Its time for the next joba slash hughes to step into the rotation and start we have hughes as a starter and joba is going to stay in the pen no matter what imo so let’s embrace him for what he is
by Kmillz2525 on Dec 19, 2010 10:27 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
The “whole” is in the logic behind ever putting him in the bullpen.
by Lord Duggan on Dec 19, 2010 10:15 PM EST up reply actions
We are fine we will make a move around the trade deadline when teams are trying to dump budget. We got a solid line up and a rotation that still got us to the ALCS last year so bullpen needs to improve cause it was scary bad last year! Joba needs to stay in the same role for once I see a return to first year dominance this year
by Kmillz2525 on Dec 19, 2010 3:47 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Yankees had a great bullpen last year...
and a return to 2007 form for Joba is beyond best case scenario. I’m just hoping for consistent contribution.
Did you not see all the games CC had to keep pitching to the 8th just so we could avoid the bullpen or how until we traded for wood we never knew who would bridge to MO? Joba can get it back he’s all about the mental part got plenty of talent left just needs to be left alone for once
by Kmillz2525 on Dec 19, 2010 3:58 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Did you not notice that Wood is the only person we're missing from that bullpen?
With Feliciano now and if we can get a strong showing from Marte when he eventually gets back and hopefully if we can resign Aceves the bullpen won’t be the kamikaze endeavor it usually is
Great we can beat lefties. What about righties? Joba I guess but he’s iffy as much as I want him to come back to dominance. We need a right handed set up man
by Kmillz2525 on Dec 19, 2010 4:15 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Part of what keeps a bridge solid is not pitching every day. CC gives the bullpen a great opportunity to stay fresh. I don’t remember a game where I was saying “please Joe, take him out” as he labored in the 7th or 8th inning.
He probably averaged 110 pitches per game, and only twice did he reach 120- both in July and in neither of those starts did he start the 8th.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
Well I’m just saying I don’t want to overwork the guy as much as I love watching him and know he is a stud but we got a long term investment in him to be pitching him as much as we can. I just want a guy who comes in like hughes did and we know he’s going to lock it down
by Kmillz2525 on Dec 19, 2010 4:18 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
True true but I would prefer joba be the guy he once was and we can focus on getting a young starter or developing a guy we have
by Kmillz2525 on Dec 19, 2010 4:24 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
well the only person that can decide how Joba performs is Joba
and i’m sure he’d love to be that guy
Exactly and I think he settles back into his bullpen roll and comes back to stardom
by Kmillz2525 on Dec 19, 2010 4:38 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
DREAMING
IT IS TIME TO WAKE UP. WE DIDN"T MAKE THE SERIES, AND LOOKED SICK AND TIRED TRYING. ANDY IS NOT COMING BACK. WE HAVE AGEING STARS WHO ARE READY TO FALL APART., WE NEED A MAJOR OVER HAUL
I’ve been preaching the youth movement so I feal you but we got what we got right now and we have to keep our young prospects and get them ready to play
by Kmillz2525 on Dec 19, 2010 4:06 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
my eyes hurt
So I was sitting on the couch, watching Brief Encounter...
by Brian5517209 on Dec 19, 2010 4:35 PM EST up reply actions
ARE YOU SURE?!?!
I SWEAR, IT COULD BE EVEN LOUDER. IF ONLY WE CAN EDIT THE SIZE OF THE FONT TOO
I am a leaf in the wind. Watch me soar.
MY HEAD IS GONNA ESPLODE!!!!!!!
So I was sitting on the couch, watching Brief Encounter...
by Brian5517209 on Dec 19, 2010 9:23 PM EST up reply actions
MAYBE IF OUR CONVERSATION IS ONLY IN BOLD WE CAN HEAR EACH OTHER THE LOUDEST?!
"Don't give up, don't ever give up."
DAY DREAMS
iT SEEMS CASHMAN IS CONTENT ON BEING A SPECKTATOR, AFTER BEING BURNED IN THE LEE SWEEPSTAKES. IN THE MEAN TIME, BOSTON HAS BUILT A CHAMPIANSHIP WORLD SERIES TYPE OF TEAM.WE COULDN"T WIN THIS YEAR, AND WITH WHAT BOSTON HAS AQUIRED ALREADY, WE WILL NOT STAND A CHANCE AGAINST THEM. wE NEED A GENERAL MANAGER WHO KNOWS HOW TO INTERACT AND GET THE JOB DONE. GRIENKI FROM K.C. WAS THE MAN TO GET. WE WILL NOT SEE A WORLD SERIES FOR AT LEAST 5 OR 6 YEARS. TIME TO GET RID OF CASHMAN. AFTER SEEING THE WAY JETER WAS TREATED, DID YOU REALLY THINK HE WOULD SIGN. HE PLAYED CASHMAN FOR THE ARROGANT FOOL HE IS. I AM A NEW YORKER, PROUD OF IT. BUT MANY PEOPLE HATE NEW YORK, AND THE PEOPLE LIVING THERE. I ONCE THOUGHT EVERY ONE WANTED TO PLAY FOR THE YANKS, NOT TRUE.
Can't hear ya, man
Speak up. Yeah, I’ll be that guy.
Really? Cashman was the man when we won it all but now he’s got to go? Well I love what he’s doing he believes in his own team. Screw boston they haven’t won a game yet!! We have plenty of time to make any moves and besides we can’t be trading away a bunch of people
by Kmillz2525 on Dec 19, 2010 4:01 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I meant the really? As how can you say let’s get rid of cashman to the other guy
by Kmillz2525 on Dec 19, 2010 4:10 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I saw that but I think it means he was actually holding the Shift key
I mean caps lock I guess I could pretend it was an accident but…
Typing a post while holding the shift key sounds painful.
But if CAPS is on and you press SHIFT, it does start a sentence with a small letter.
Kind of like how many licks it takes to get to the center of a Toostie Pop.
I am a leaf in the wind. Watch me soar.
At least your spelling was good.
Writer for Pinstripe Alley, MLB Daily Dish
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
By good
you mean, better than jscape’s before spell check, right?
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
On a scale of one to jscape how good was the writing?
Writer for Pinstripe Alley, MLB Daily Dish
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
You’re undervaluing the post’s grit, heart and clubhouse presence.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
Well
Writer for Pinstripe Alley, MLB Daily Dish
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
by Brandon C. on Dec 19, 2010 4:02 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Oh yeah and jeter played like hellen keller last year and still is the highest payed short stop in the league!! If he cared about the team he would say hey I don’t need the money we need money to make some aquisitions
by Kmillz2525 on Dec 19, 2010 4:03 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
No but my phone is a bit hard to cap with the only flaw in my acclaim
by Kmillz2525 on Dec 19, 2010 4:25 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
He's posting all the way from denmark
It’s only natural he’d want to speak up.
Usqueadbaugham! Anam muck an dhoul ! Did ye drink me doornail?
Oh, fine
I’ll get a keyboard shipped to you. Just don’t blame me when all the forums ban you, ok?
WHOO HOOO!!!1!!1
I shall wait patiently for my brand spanking new AWESOME keyboard!
I am a leaf in the wind. Watch me soar.
Great points, jscape
Which non-contenders have starters that we value? At this point, I’d rather stick with what we have than make a trade that we don’t absolutely have to.
Trades
Anyone else hear about us trying to get soria from KC? I’ve heard about it for awhile but I don’t know if its legit or not. I would like it cause he could be a set up man slash future closer
by Kmillz2525 on Dec 19, 2010 5:32 PM EST via mobile reply actions
He's nasty no doubt
But they allegedly asked for Montero around the time of the trade deadline. I’d do Romine and maybe Phelps/ DJ Mitchell, but I’m not giving up the Jesus for a reliever. The yanks are also on his no trade list so hat could provide a problem is he wants an extension or something. I could see Cash throwing him a couple millies to make him accept a trade, but not a contract extension.
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
by CasanovaWong on Dec 19, 2010 6:11 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah that’s what I’m saying nothing to big for him but he would be solid. Maybe just get them with multiple players not really one amazing and a ok guy. But KC seems like they are fire selling to improve for a few years down the road past when this guy will want to still be there
by Kmillz2525 on Dec 19, 2010 6:56 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
let the young pitchers have a chance..
Like an article on Yahoo pointed out, last time, we did not sign the best FA pitcher because he turned down the Yanks offer. The Yankees used their young prospect (Jeter, Rivera, Jorgue, bernie) then and with the help of few extra trades we won 3 WS and few pennants. This could work out well for us our young prospects could help us win a couple WS in 2 years or even in 2011. Yanks will surprise some of us next Year!!! Stay Tuned…
great points jscape.
they’re contenders. easily. why trade young pitching if you can, yanno, win?
I believe in the Church of Baseball
Free FreeBradshaw!
by Frank Campagnola on Dec 19, 2010 5:53 PM EST reply actions
Never say Never... Strange things happen in life
I would not put it past the WSox to listen and be open to trading one of their SP if the right deal of prospects presented itself. A deal that would include Nova & two quality minor league prospects excluding Montero & ManBan may be enough to get Floyd or Jackson. Buerle or Danks may require an additional minor league player.
If Pettite returns, we are still going to need one more SP and if he retires we are going to need two SPs. The WSox may have surplus talent we are looking for, including AL experience, and could be a willing trade partner. I am talking a win/win situation for both clubs. It could happen.
by YANKEES FOREVER on Dec 19, 2010 6:27 PM EST reply actions
Would the Yankees trade Phil Hughes
for a young righty whose ceiling is 3rd or 4th starter and some low minor leaguers?
If Cashman did that, he should be fired immediately.
That’s what you’re asking the White Sox to do. Except that Gavin Floyd is better than Phil Hughes (though Hughes is two years younger).
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
Would you have thought we could get a 14 game winner in Vasquez and Logan from Atlanta for Melky & Dunn. Strange things do happen
Yes, Javy was a bust for us but Logan pitched well. When the deal was made we were getting a 14 game winner essentially for Melky. I understand your analogy about Hughes but why not explore the alternative. We may have to include Joba, Nova and mid -level minor league player to get a deal done with WSox for Floyd or Danks.
We need at least one additional quality starter if Andy returns otherwise two SP. We need to target the quality starter we want and see if a deal can be made.
Nothing ventured… Nothing gained
by YANKEES FOREVER on Dec 20, 2010 11:07 AM EST up reply actions
Why does everyone forget we traded one of our top prospects at the time Aroldys Vizcaino? He is more valuable than Melky or Dunn ever were. Sure he was a low A prospect at the time and will take time to develop but he has a high ceiling.
like you said, he was low A
nothing to get too excited over yet. We’ll see how it looks in a few years
We traded pitchers Ohlendorf ,Karsten,McCutcheon & OF Tabita for a OF Nady & LP Marte (who had been on the disabled list prior 2 the trade), That trade was a disaster-Nady had a bad arm & Marte spent as much time on the DL as Pavano.
We trade Ian Kennedy & Austin Jackson for Curtis Granderson
We were really taken to the cleaners on both trades.
Granderson is very overated-may never hit over 250 again.
Jackson looks like a .300 hitter & a 30 sb OF.
Kennedy will be a star pitcher & much better than Chamberlin w/his herky/jerky delivery
by frankiec on Dec 19, 2010 9:11 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Jackson will never have the SLG. that Granderson has
and his average was inflated from a .396 BABIP, he go really really lucky
and while people think that Jackson was so much better then Granderson, he was only worth .2 more WAR, inflated BABIP and all, over Granderson
going forward I would rather have the Grandyman
So I was sitting on the couch, watching Brief Encounter...
by Brian5517209 on Dec 19, 2010 9:23 PM EST up reply actions
You are 100% right! Your opinion is now mine!
Writer for Pinstripe Alley, MLB Daily Dish
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Barndon, nooooooooooooooooo!
So I was sitting on the couch, watching Brief Encounter...
by Brian5517209 on Dec 19, 2010 10:06 PM EST up reply actions
Rec'd
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
by CasanovaWong on Dec 19, 2010 10:27 PM EST up reply actions
Kennedy was merely average in a pitching dominated division (very few good hitters). Austin Jackson was extremely lucky, strikes out at an astronomical rate, has no power, and is not nearly sa good defensive as Granderson. Ohlendorf, Karstens, McCutchen have done absolutely nothing for Pittsburgh but be innings eaters (4-5/long relief type guys). The jury is still out on Tabata but so far it looks like we have given up very little value.
The "lucky"
analogy really gets overused by you metrics guys. By the way you guys analyze players, all good hitters are lucky and all bad hitters are just unlucky. Let’s try to use both the metrics and traditional stats to judge a players’ abilities. Reality bites.
There's always next year
It gets used a lot because there is a lot of luck inherent in this game. If Arod smashes a linedrive right at an outfielder, and then Ajax gets jammed and pops up, but the ball lands in a bermuda triangle between defenders, what just happened there? Arod got unlucky in his at bat, and Jackson got lucky in his.
You might want to say that luck like that must average out over the course of a whole season, but it does not. You can calculate a batters expected babip based on various things, and variance between that and their observed babip can tell you to what degree luck played into their results. The fact is that Ajax had a babip of about .400, but his expected rate was like .350, so he got extremely lucky. Add to that his unsustainable 25% linedrive rate, which is bound to regress, and you get a picture that Jackson will see some heavy regression in 2011.
Russell Martin is just like the Jewish Pharisees, trying to keep Jesus down.
It also gets thrown around when it’s appropriate to get thrown around because there is evidence that points to it. Nobody is calling Albert Pujols lucky and due for regression, and no one is calling Ramiro Pena a good player who just got unlucky.
There are some cases, however, where luck is having a considerable impact on overall numbers. A-Jax is clearly one of them.
Yes, he may regress
But I don’t see how a conclusion can be reached on a player’s first season, especially by those of you who love the “small sample size” expression. He’s bound to mature and learn and it is to be determined what kind of player he will ultimately become.
There's always next year
Because how many of your balls in play land for hits is not a skill. You don’t get better at it with experience or learn how to do it better. It’s like saying that you’re better at flipping a coin once you get some enough practice.
Him being a rookie has nothing to do with the fact that a disproportionate number of the balls that he hit were not fielded. He may improve his skills and become a better baseball player as he enters the prime of his career, but his 2010 numbers do not reflect his true level of performance that year.
With experience, he should reduce his number of strikeouts and put more balls in play, which ultimately will result in more hits.
There's always next year
That’s exactly what I meant by “he may improve his skills.” However, someone who performed at the exact level of 2010 A-Jax would be expected to have a batting average closer to .250 than .300. As such, it is sort of inescapable that he had a lucky season.
Maybe he maintains his numbers by improving his swing/approach, but if 2011 A-Jax hits the ball exactly the same way as 2010 A-Jax, the smart money is on at least a 30 point dip in BABIP.
Jackson may be a better player next year, and have worse stats. His expected average this year with neutral luck was .263. Let’s say his expected average next year is .280, but he has bad luck on his babip and hits just .260. He was a better player, but his results were worse from the swing in luck.
Russell Martin is just like the Jewish Pharisees, trying to keep Jesus down.
In that first trade, what have those other guys done to call that a loss for us? If anything, I call it a huge win because nobody in that trade has amounted to anything, except for the phenomenal postseason performance (alliteration ftw) by Marte in 2009.
I’m not ready to call the second trade a failure yet either. Granderson and Jackson were about equivalent last year, but while Jackson is due for heavy regression from his inflated babip and linedrive rates, I think Granderson will be better with the work Kevin Long put into adjusting his swing. Maybe IPK will still tip the scales, but we had no room for him, so he was next to useless for our team.
Russell Martin is just like the Jewish Pharisees, trying to keep Jesus down.
Did you forget again that batting average is an important statistic and a good way to evaluate a player’s hitting performance? I have to keep reminding myself of that because it keeps slipping my mind too.
Granderson also missed a month while putting up those numbers
Completely healthy over a full season, even at the level he played last year would be great. I think he’s going to be better though. If everything pans out properly he could finally be the true successor of Bernie.
by Monotonousblob on Dec 19, 2010 11:23 PM EST up reply actions
Just don’t see the reason for the White Sox to sell. Minnesota gets stronger with Justin Morneau and Joe Nathan.
Tigers got stronger too
So I was sitting on the couch, watching Brief Encounter...
by Brian5517209 on Dec 19, 2010 10:53 PM EST up reply actions
and neither team has to worry about Greinke anymore
by Monotonousblob on Dec 19, 2010 11:27 PM EST up reply actions
I think the White sox might actually have the strongest team
The Twins lost their bullpen and I’m not sure if they’ll resign Pavano and I feel like the Tigers, no matter who they add, are perpetually on the verge of a collapse.
I love my fellow Yankee fans
But some of them…a lot of them it seems…are really f’ing stupid, as the author of this piece said. Why don’t we just focus on drafting and producing our own talent for once?
Because people will then yell at you for conceding the WS
The Yankees have pushed a win now/use money to fix holes later mentality and it bit them in the ass this year. Let the kids play, that’s how the last dynasty started.
by Monotonousblob on Dec 20, 2010 2:58 AM EST up reply actions
i agree
While it may not always be the best move, right now we have the opportunity to throw our young arms into actually scenarios where they can get experience. I think this year will be huge for Hughes and Nova. Maybe we won’t win the WS this year but I think we will see giving them the opportunity to be valuable pieces in our rotation will pay off down the road. However, I do expect Hughes to take another big step this year.
A trade I would love to see
How about this one….trading 2 pitchers straight up, both starters, both owed about the same type of money for the next 3 years, both fell out of favor with their respective teams…The Yankees and the World Series winners the San Francisco Giants…A.J. Burnett for Barry Zito. If you think about it, both guys need a chance of scenery, have both not worked out too well with their respective teams, both get a chance to turn their careers around. Zito might do well in Yankee Stadium, which plays well to left handed pitchers, Burnett going to the National League and facing players who might not have seen him. Both around the same ago, Zito a couple of years younger, both looking to reclaim some lost glory from previous years….The Yankees could probably get the Giants to pick up some of Zito’s salary as I believe he is owed more than Burnett for the remainer of his contract, it’s worth a thought.
by Pinstripe Power on Dec 20, 2010 12:42 PM EST reply actions
NO!!!
The difference is Burnett still has some of the “best stuff” in the league and Zito is a junkballer who can’t cut it in the NL West (a weak hitting division). Burnett on any given night can go out there and just blow hitters away Zito could never do that.
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