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Why Barndon, and everyone else here, needs to stop ignoring Sabremetrics

Here's one wagon you SHOULD jump on!

Here's one wagon you SHOULD jump on!

 

Well, I read your post Brandon, and I would like to respond. 

First of all, I want to address your Toy Story metaphor.  I don't think it is very accurate, so I'll propose something I think is closer.  For a long time, Isaac Newton's laws of motion were viewed as the canonical "stats" when it came to describing physics.  Over time, however, it became obvious that they weren't as precise as was needed.  This is when new "stats" like special relativity and quantum mechanics were developed.  Newton's laws still give you a rough idea of what is going on, so they certainly still have use, but in instances where you want to become more precise, you have to turn to the more advanced forms.

Star-divide

The traditional statistics certainly tell you something.  Average tells you how good a player is at getting hits.  OBP tells how good a player is at getting on base.  Fielding percentage tells you how many times a player will make an error.  But, do any of these traditional stats tell you how good a player is in overall offense?  Sure, you can try and look at their average, their OBP, their steals, and their Slugging %, but how do you value what you see?  Is a player who hits .300/.350/.500 with 40 steals and 20 HR better than a player with .280/.375/.555 with 5 steals and 25 HR?  I don't know, do you?  All these traditional stats, but they can't tell us the most important question, how good are either of these players?  Which one is better?

Let's break it down a bit.  What is the goal of offense?  It's to score runs, correct?  Well, how much better is a double than a single?  To find the answer, you need to know how many runs, on average, a double gets you, and how many runs, on average, a single gets you, and find the difference.  Records of baseball games have been kept for over a hundred years, so we have a gigantic sample size on which to base statistics.  In the above example, we can see that on average, a double nets you 1.08 runs, while a single nets you .77 runs (both are runs above making an out, btw).  Knowing the run value of anything you can do on offense (IBB, BB, 1B, 2B, 3B, HR, SB, CS), to find how many runs a player was worth on offense, all you have to do is multiply everything they did by the average run value, and add it all up.  Now we know how many runs a player's offensive was worth, and this is something concrete.  When we take this number and divide by plate appearances, we get a stat that is known as wOBA.  This stat encompasses everything you can do on offense, so it allows you to compare players with vastly different styles of play.  None of the traditional stats allow you to do this.

Here is another caveat:  How do we know how players compare that play in different ballparks?  The classic example of this is Matt Holliday.  For three years, from 2006 to 2008, Holliday had a ridiculous wOBA of .418.  For reference, Arod's wOBA for that three year span was also .418.  By looking at his traditional stats, many people in baseball began saying that Holliday was one of the best hitters in the game.  They didn't take into account, however, that he plays in Coors field 81 games of the year, which is a big-time hitters park.  When Holliday went to the A's in 2009, he was now spending half his games at Oakland Coliseum, a pitcher's park.  He is now with St. Louis, who also play in a pitcher's park.  His numbers have come back down to earth, showing us that while he's still a great player, he's not as good as Coors made him look.  To account for this, we can look at years of data and see how much a certain stadium inflates or deflates the numbers of players, both hitters and pitchers.  A stat that does this is wRC+.  It takes the base of wOBA, and adjusts it based on the parks a player was playing in.  Obviously, hitters that play in Colorado will see their numbers deflated, and hitters that play in San Diego will see their numbers inflated (the opposite would be true for pitchers).  To make the numbers easy to understand, wRC+ is also normalized so that a score of 100 is league average, anything below that is below average, and above that is above average.  What wRC+ tells us in our original example is that Matt Holliday was 49% more productive than the average player from 2006-2008, while Arod was 59% more productive.  So while their numbers looked very similar, Arod was the better player because he put up the same numbers in a less hitter friendly park.

Another great example in favor of sabremetrics is Ichiro.  People look at his gaudy batting average and hit totals, and come to the conclusion that he is a superstar offensive player.  I've even heard people on this site say he's one of the top hitters of this decade.  What are the facts?  Ichiro hits a lot of singles.  That's it.  He doesn't hit many extra-base hits, and he doesn't take walks.  Is he a good hitter? Sure.  Is he great?  No.  wRC+ has him at a career 122 hitter.  That's certainly a good player who will make some All-Star games, but a 122 wRC+ is not superstar level.  Arod's wRC+ in his down year this year was 127, and he's a career 152 player.  Pujols, as another example, is a career 173 hitter.  Those are superstars.

As you have all heard me say numerous times, defense is very hard to quantify.  That doesn't mean that we shouldn't try our best, however.  Defense has been a misunderstood aspect because our eyes often fool us.  People see Jacoby Ellsbury making diving catches and think he's a great center fielder, but they don't realize that he makes routine plays look much harder because he takes bad routes to balls.  This is why it's just not wise to trust our eyes when it comes to defense.  Let's do the same thing we did before.  What is the purpose of defense?  It's to prevent the other team from scoring runs.  How do you do that?  Getting to balls hit in your area of responsibility (range), not making mistakes (errors), limiting baserunners from taking extra bases for outfielders (arm), and turning double plays for infielders (DP).  UZR makes an attempt to account for all of these factors, so as to quantify the overall defense of players.  You can certainly make the argument that certain aspects are undervalued or overvalued, and there is definitely a problem with batted ball types being treated the same, but until someone comes up with something better, UZR and Total Zone rating are the two best defensive stats we have.  With enough sample size (generally accepted to be 3 years of data), we can get a rough picture of how defenders compare.  UZR should not be taken as gospel like wRC+, but if there is a large gap between two players, you can assume that the one is better than the other.

The argument that these stats are too complicated is absolutely ridiculous as well.  None of us hand-calculate stats.  Do you count up all a player's hits or total bases and divide by their at bats or plate appearances to get your stats, or do you just look at a site where AVG and SLG are already calculated and listed for you?  That's the same thing I do.  I don't have the linear weights for wOBA memorized, I don't need to know that.  I know why wOBA is a more trustworthy stat and I understand it, but I don't need to know exactly how to calculate it, it's listed on Fangraphs for me.

Finally, none of us sit there watching the game, thinking about how a player's wRC+ will go up or how they can improve their UZR by reaching balls.  Just because we chose to trust stats that are more precise in their evaluations of players doesn't mean that we watch the game any different or enjoy it any less than you.  You can feel free to keep using Batting Average as a comparative tool among hitters, but someone who uses a more inclusive statistic will always trump you, just as an electronics company who chose to ignore quantum mechanics would always produce inferior products than one who manipulated the laws of QM.  If you chose to ignore the better stats that have been created, you aren't less knowledgeable, but you are less informed, so you put yourself at a disadvantage.

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Got blasted for thinking Bagwell > Griffey but SABR says its closer than you think.

"People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball. I’ll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring. " ~Rogers Hornsby

Get Off My Mound

Follow me on Twitter! @YankeeCountry2

by Jeterian 2 on Nov 14, 2010 12:16 AM EST reply actions  

That’s an interesting find. Griffey’s career averages are lower than Bagwell’s, but that’s more because he kept playing for several years when he was no longer an effective player. Bagwell’s 1994 season was ridiculous. That season was better than any single season Griffey ever had. Bagwell had 6 seasons of 150+ wRC+, while Griffey had 7. They are pretty comparable players, but if Griffey hadn’t been hit with so many injuries, I think he would have been much better.

Montero will be our savior in 2011.

by Wraithpk on Nov 14, 2010 12:31 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree.

Only thing is I try and work with what I have so I rank Bagwell higher than Griffey. Like Disco said in the thread earlier Griffey was a media sweetheart and everyone loved him. Bags? Not so much.

"People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball. I’ll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring. " ~Rogers Hornsby

Get Off My Mound

Follow me on Twitter! @YankeeCountry2

by Jeterian 2 on Nov 14, 2010 10:08 AM EST up reply actions  

Griffey did it cleanly. Bagwell didn’t.

There's always next year

by david d on Nov 14, 2010 12:49 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't use steroids in my arguments.

There is no way you can tell the production he got out of it.

"People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball. I’ll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring. " ~Rogers Hornsby

Get Off My Mound

Follow me on Twitter! @YankeeCountry2

by Jeterian 2 on Nov 14, 2010 10:09 AM EST up reply actions  

More than he would have without ’em.

There's always next year

by david d on Nov 14, 2010 10:15 AM EST up reply actions  

Example :

Bonds is one of the greatest players all-time. You going remove him from the best of the best because of steroids? I’m certainly not.

"People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball. I’ll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring. " ~Rogers Hornsby

Get Off My Mound

Follow me on Twitter! @YankeeCountry2

by Jeterian 2 on Nov 14, 2010 10:24 AM EST up reply actions  

Of course

Your decision/opinion. If you don’t care about the integrity and legitimacy of a player that’s your business. Everybody knows his numbers aren’t legitimate. I was raised to respect integrity and past conservations about this subject just show that today’s generation cares not about integrity. I do not care to get into this debate about steroids. They affected and influenced the game, period.

There's always next year

by david d on Nov 14, 2010 10:40 AM EST up reply actions  

It's not a matter of "not caring about the integrity and legitimacy of a player"

I did get upset when I heard that a player used steroids for a while. However, I think I can understand the problems more now. Not every player took steroids, so you can’t ignore everything done in that era. Not every stat was affected the same way by steroids. Sure, players probably had more long fly balls or doubles turn into home runs; they probably also had 390 ft. home runs turn into 490 ft. home runs! You can’t exactly take away every home run ARod hit in Texas because he used steroids.

Similarly, pitchers were using them, too. That may have increased their velocity, but decreased their endurance (made them more susceptible to injuries). As such, perhaps the hitters would have been at a huge disadvantage if they hadn’t been taking steroids!

On top of that, IIRC, the MLB hadn’t made any regulations about what you could or could not do to your body. I don’t think there were any studies showing the harmful side effects, etc. (at least not at first). In my mind, there isn’t that much difference between MLB players using steroids back in the day and Coca Cola putting cocaine in their beverage: Both substances are harmful, but they weren’t known to be such when the practice began. At the same time, an MLB player using steroids today would be about as bad as still putting cocaine in Coke.

by pastor2b on Nov 15, 2010 11:34 AM EST up reply actions  

uhh

there have been studies done on steroids for years, mainly because of the olympcs. its only since it came out that so many people used roids that the advertising against steroids has come to the forefront.

Yeah, MLB made regulations. They banned everything illegal, which includes steroids and cocaine.

I believe in the Church of Baseball
Free FreeBradshaw!

by Frank Campagnola on Nov 15, 2010 10:29 PM EST up reply actions  

My point is "When did MLB make regulations against steroids?"

Was it before or after so many players started using it? If history is any indicator, the regulations/prohibitions generally come after the initial use of that substance (hence my analogy with Coca-Cola and cocaine).

by pastor2b on Nov 16, 2010 9:47 AM EST up reply actions  

The rule wasn’t specific enough at the time. They just said don’t use anything illegal. That would include things like marijuana. The thing is that a lot of the steroids those guys were using were not illegal at the time. When a new steroid is developed, it will be in circulation for a while before the FDA catches on and bans it. There are also a class of drugs known as prohormones that are basically the precursors of androgenic compounds, and these are perfectly legal to buy in the US, they sell them at your local GNC. For this reason, baseball needed to get specific about what was banned, which they didn’t do until 2004. Now there is a list of drugs, some that are actually legal here, that are banned in baseball. Just as an anecdote, Edison Volquez was suspended for 60 games last year for something he purchased legally at GNC.

Montero will be our savior in 2011.

by Wraithpk on Nov 16, 2010 10:42 AM EST up reply actions  

Thanks for the info

Frankie, david,
I wasn’t trying to excuse the general use of steroids in my post; I was pointing out that if it wasn’t illegal and there weren’t any MLB regulations against it, then you can’t blame the players for using it, any more than you could blame them for drinking Gatorade now (if that were banned from baseball in the future).

by pastor2b on Nov 16, 2010 10:55 AM EST up reply actions  

how do you know Griffey didn’t use steroids? Just because his name hasn’t been officially leaked doesn’t mean he didn’t use them. You really can’t say yes or no definitively for anyone in that era.

Montero will be our savior in 2011.

by Wraithpk on Nov 14, 2010 11:49 AM EST up reply actions  

No.

But it wasn’t like I was wrong. Its close.

/end

"People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball. I’ll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring. " ~Rogers Hornsby

Get Off My Mound

Follow me on Twitter! @YankeeCountry2

by Jeterian 2 on Nov 14, 2010 10:52 AM EST up reply actions  

I would like to thank you for using my full name, Barndon. Sure, it isn’t my real name, but it’s a lot better than Barnd, or even Ba.

My point of the post and point I’m overall trying to make, is why does everyone have a problem with me choosing not to use it. I’m not discounting sabermetrics, I’m just one less person using them. Maybe within my rambling my point got lost, but I just wanted to use that piece as a reference point for future questions about why I don’t use sabermetrics.

The question is, why should I even be questioned? This is the only true problem I have with sabermetrics. The post I wrote is in response to the various, various times I have been in arguments, stated that I do not use sabermetrics, was asked why, explained, then given a lengthy explanation of why I should. That happens at least once a week. I got tired of typing out responses, so I wrote a lengthy post about it. The post garnered the opinions of others, and many seemed perplexed at my not using it still. That’s fine. People that relentlessly attempt to get me to use them are the ones that bother me.

I’ll use my stats, you use yours. If you think you are more knowledgable than me, and I’m a crazy person, that’s fine with me.

Please don’t lump me in with the crazies that think that sabermetrics are a cult and are taking over the world and that Bill James is an evil scientist that’s attempting to take over the world. I disagree with 99% of non sabermetrics users, generally.

That’s all for now, I hope I’ve made my opinion known by now. I’m really trying not to discount sabermetrics, just saying they don’t mean much to me.

Writer for Pinstripe Alley, MLB Daily Dish
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Big Yankees and NY Rangers fan!
R.I.P. Freddy 'Sez', Bob Sheppard, George Steinbrenner

by Brandon C. on Nov 14, 2010 12:30 AM EST reply actions  

That’s fine if you don’t care to look at them, but you should at least understand their value and why they are good. Also, don’t expect to get much credibility if you try to compare players in one of your articles using the old stats. Sure, they are fun to keep track of, but they don’t evaluate overall performance very well, so you can’t make the conclusion “Player A has a higher batting average than B, so he’s a better hitter.” To make a concrete conclusion like that, you would have to use one of the new stats, that’s just how it is.

Montero will be our savior in 2011.

by Wraithpk on Nov 14, 2010 12:42 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I’m not sure what anyone wants out of me here. I’ve said everything you want short of “I will now look and use sabermetrics for posts,” and that would be completely reversing my opinion, which I don’t plan on doing and no one should expect me to do. Sabermetrics are awesome for those that want to use them, and can only help someone analyze the game. Good enough?

Writer for Pinstripe Alley, MLB Daily Dish
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Big Yankees and NY Rangers fan!
R.I.P. Freddy 'Sez', Bob Sheppard, George Steinbrenner

by Brandon C. on Nov 14, 2010 12:46 AM EST up reply actions  

Don't be suckered into thinking you are wrong

I copied this from your post, a response I left for wwjd: To understand them and use them for analysis is exactly the way it should be. The problem is that some here at PA are actually discounting traditional stats and acting as if they are meaningless because they are consumed by the metrics. I can see their use, but to be told traditional stats are stupid and meaningless makes them look kind of ignorant.

There's always next year

by david d on Nov 14, 2010 12:53 AM EST up reply actions  

They aren’t meaningless, but what they tell you isn’t necessarily what makes a good offensive player. Batting average tells you how good a player is at getting hits. That is certainly a part of being a good offensive player, but it’s not the whole story by a long shot. My problem is when people try to make the classical stats say things that they, in fact, do not say. Like when people try to say that Ichiro is a great hitter because his average is high. He is good at getting base hits, that’s all that says.

Montero will be our savior in 2011.

by Wraithpk on Nov 14, 2010 11:58 AM EST up reply actions  

Why aren't old stats valid to use

Sabremetrics are just as flawed as the traditional stats and because some people don’t feel the need to use them does not make them any less credible just because you wanted to look up some ridiculous stat on the internet. It’s statements like these that make you sabremetric maniacs come across as arrogant and annoying, if your arguments weren’t riddled with attitude and blasting anyone who even mentions traditional stats people might be more open but you come across as condescending.. Just because you use a certain stat doesn’t make you smarter or better at evaluating players than anyone else. Ken Griffey Jr. is the most talented player I’ve ever seen even if I hated his guts for so many years, Griffey in his prime was better than anyone I’ve seen in my lifetime(which isn’t a whole lot mind you), and I don’t care if some made up stat says some short pudgy firstbaseman on steroids was any better, no offense to Mr. Bagwell he was a great hitter but he didn’t play CF the way The Kid did. You’re like the religions people that come knock on your door and keep you from doing something productive for an hour because they won’t shut up. This is such an overblown issue now it’s not even funny. If Brandon doesn’t want to use them fine, if you want to write an article comparing players WAR and UZR’s thats fine, I won’t read it because those are the most flawed of all but it’s still in your right.

by andrew21 on Nov 14, 2010 11:16 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

First of all, the entire point of the sabremetric stats is that they are NOT as flawed as the traditional stats. That’s why they were created, they are improvements on the older stats. The offensive ones are incredibly precise. The defensive ones still need some tinkering, but they tell more than just fielding percentage by itself.

Second, don’t ever bring religion into these forums. Making fun of someone else’s religion unprovoked like that is wildly inappropriate. You don’t know if someone here is in that religion and would be very insulted by that.

Montero will be our savior in 2011.

by Wraithpk on Nov 14, 2010 12:11 PM EST up reply actions  

More like this post it flawed.

"People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball. I’ll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring. " ~Rogers Hornsby

by Jeterian 2 on Nov 14, 2010 12:20 PM EST up reply actions  

The problem with you not choosing to use it (at least with me)

is that you make a big deal out of it. You get into these “various arguments” with people regarding the subject when you clearly have no interest in it.

"That happens at least once a week. I got tired of typing out responses, so I wrote a lengthy post about it. "

Why? Why bother? It makes no sense, and it’s kinda pointless as well. They’re not going to change your mind, and you’re not going to change their mind. When you write front page rants about the subject and title it VS. when no actual analysis or debate is given, it makes you look no better than the people who apparently try to ram it down your throat, and it’s embarrassing for someone who was picked as a writer for this site who labels such rants as “analysis.” I’m not saying posts titled like this are better, "Why Barndon, and everyone else here, needs to stop ignoring Sabremetrics ", for the same reason that most people have made their choice, but at least Wraithpk gets into actual details and figures about why this stat system is useful.

Like I said before, I don’t use Sabermetrics. I really don’t use traditional stats either. I just go by what I see and judge a player by that. However, I’m not a baseball analyst, nor a scout, nor a writer for a newspaper or sports blog, which is probably the main reason why people have a problem with you choosing to ignore Sabermetrics, because you’re an analyst for this site. When an analyst blatantly chooses to ignore facts and announces it in various arguments & then a huge rant, it devalues your analysis & opinion on the subject. Again though, you can choose to ignore them, just like you can choose to ignore this as well. But don’t expect people to stop picking on you about this. If anything, with that huge rant you posted, you’ve now made yourself more of a target.

"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"

by I'mGivingYouARaise on Nov 14, 2010 3:34 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Yeah, you pretty much hit it on the head. The casual fan never needs to know anything about sabremetrics. Who should know about them are baseball GM’s who actually make decisions on players, and writers who need good information when writing articles about players. I really don’t care if other people start using wRC+ or UZR, but if you try and make an argument based on less precise statistics, when the more precise statistics disagree with you, be prepared to be corrected by someone.

Montero will be our savior in 2011.

by Wraithpk on Nov 14, 2010 5:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Interesting article. Brandon, this is why stats like BABIP are useful. This writer notes that Cashman said that sabremetrics were one of the main reasons they went and got Nick Swisher. His BABIP in 2008 was .250, but his line drive rate was over 20%. This means that he got ridiculously unlucky, so Cashman expected him to have a rebound in following years as his luck evened out, which he did.

Montero will be our savior in 2011.

by Wraithpk on Nov 14, 2010 5:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Saying Sabermetrics are good is wrong.

Saying they’re bad is wrong. This is a term used for a fairly large number of ideas. Some of these new stats are great measures of complicated ideas. I am a believer in WHIP and OPS. A number of others are excellent too. I think looking at BABIP etc. can be very interesting. It is interesting to changes in line drive and ground ball %.

Others are not good. If a measure is so poorly repeated that you have to have more than a season to mke conclusions we need to improve it or discard it.

Most of the new defensive stats are in this class, at least for most positions. Let’s not argue about groups of stats. Let’s talk about specific stats

"I’m never really surprised, but I am thrilled sometimes." Joe G. 2010

by Cbeck3 on Nov 14, 2010 2:33 AM EST reply actions  

The problem with WHIP and OPS

WHIP treats HR, doubles, triples, singles, and walks as being the same. It is just a measure of walks + hits divided by innings pitched. As such, doesn’t tell you much about a pitcher.

While I like OPS, it has problems too. OBP is based on total plate appearances, while SLG is based on at bats. Then there is the question of which is more important OBP or SLG? OPS weights them equally.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Nov 15, 2010 2:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Alternatively, each has its benefits

WHIP doesn’t tell you how “good” a pitcher is, it tells you how many guys he’ll allow on base in an average inning. How “good” he is comes from different stats (BAA, FIP, etc.)
OPS lets you compare guys with different hitting styles. GGBG has low SLG, high OBP; another player may have low OBP, high SLG. OPS lets you compare them on a more equal basis. I personally think it’s a bit of an extraneous stat because SLG and OBP measure different things and are useful for different things, but there you go.

by pastor2b on Nov 15, 2010 2:31 PM EST up reply actions  

I like OPS better than WHIP, but there are significant problems with both

WHIP may tell you how many baserunners per inning a pitcher allows. But it doesn’t tell you anything else. For example, two pitchers pitch 3 innings. Pitcher A allowed 3 baserunners (1.00 WHIP), Pitcher B 5 baserunners (1.67 WHIP). Who pitched better? It’s hard to tell without knowing how the runners got on base. It’s possible that Pitcher A allowed 3 HR, while Pitcher B allowed 5 infield singles (and none of the runners scored). Context matters.

While it’s true that it’s better for pitchers to limit baserunners, other factors matter; and a stat the regards a single or walk the same as a HR isn’t as useful as some people think.

You’re right. OBP and SLG do measure different things. Let’s look at your OPS comparison: Here are two .820 OPS hitters. Player A has a .390 OBP and .430 SLG. Player B has a .300 OBP and .520 SLG. Which player is better? You can’t tell by OPS alone, since both players have the same OPS. However, OBP is more valuable because a player with a higher OBP makes fewer outs. Since OBP is the more valuable component of OPS, it should be weighted as such. That’s what wOBA does.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Nov 15, 2010 3:04 PM EST up reply actions  

OPS should never be used. OBP and SLG aren’t scaled the same, so adding them together is meaningless. Besides that, wOBA and wRC+ are much better stats.

WHIP is ok, in general, other than that problem with home runs you brought out. It’s been shown that extra base hits are more a function of your defense than your pitcher, i.e. a runner will stop at first if a fielder cuts off a ball quickly and has a strong arm. The best pitcher stat, in my opinion, is xFIP, which is the same as FIP except it uses flyball rate instead of homeruns because homeruns have too much luck involved, but homerun rate for almost all pitchers regresses to about 10.8% of flyballs with a large enough sample size.

Montero will be our savior in 2011.

by Wraithpk on Nov 15, 2010 3:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Some stats are in fact better than others, and the points that you make are correct, but there’s no reason you need to rely on one stat and one stat alone. The idea is to gather as many stats as you can, as they are all measuring different things.

Except win-loss record, that will most likely make you less informed.

Questions or thoughts? Email me at duggan2423(at)gmail(dot)com

by Lord Duggan on Nov 15, 2010 3:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Thank you for explaining some of the basics of sabermetrics. As I have stated, I’m not someone who uses them, but that’s really only because I haven’t taken the time to learn about them. You explained the basics, and your argument in general, very well.

"He wasn't an astronaut, he was a tv comedian! And he was just using space travel as a metaphor for beating his wife!"

by groot on Nov 14, 2010 4:40 AM EST reply actions  

Well argued

As a fan, Brandon (or Barndon!) the right to think any way he wants. If he likes "gritty" players like David Eckstein then he should go ahead and root for them.

However, I will not think as highly of his opinion if he ignores information of any kind (including what respected scouts say). Similarly I would not want anyone professing a desire to ignore sabrmetrics anywhere near the management of my favorite team. Fortunately almost every franchise in baseball now recognizes the import of the Bill James revolution and has statistically minded people in their front office (to complement not replace scouts).

The problem is not so much that fans want to ignore sabrmetrics, but rather that they want to disparage those who pay attention to it. A response to “X is a better player because his WAR is . . .” is not “Who cares about WAR?” but rather “Well I think player Y is better because . . .” Too often we see the former and not the latter.

by stusviews on Nov 14, 2010 12:33 PM EST reply actions  

Blah, Blah, Blah

How did baseball ever survive before metrics?

Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.

by YankeesJets on Nov 14, 2010 12:59 PM EST reply actions  

How did people walk around before Isaac Newton studied gravity?? How did we get to work before cars?? How did we see before the lightbulb??

New ideas are so scary, aren’t they?

Questions or thoughts? Email me at duggan2423(at)gmail(dot)com

by Lord Duggan on Nov 14, 2010 2:29 PM EST up reply actions  

spooky language!

Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows

by Rorschach44 on Nov 14, 2010 3:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, how did we not

float away before Newton figured out gravity? I think people walked to or used horses and/or bicycles to get to work and used candles and/or lanterns to see at night.

There's always next year

by david d on Nov 14, 2010 5:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Exactly. You’re using a horse and claiming it’s as good as a car. I’m saying “that’s stupid.”

Questions or thoughts? Email me at duggan2423(at)gmail(dot)com

by Lord Duggan on Nov 14, 2010 6:00 PM EST up reply actions  

So now we are comparing Metrics with things like cars, lightbulbs and gravity?

Think you guys might to think about what you are saying. I’m fine with evolution and new ideas but metrics are nowhere near the importance of the examples given. Those were life changing things, this is a stat for a game we watch for entertainment. I would argue the DVD is a more important invention than these new stats, lol. Do they help? Sure. Would baseball be the exact same game if they were never invented? Sure.

Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.

by YankeesJets on Nov 14, 2010 9:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Baseball would, but the analysis of baseball would not be.

It’s just an example, not something that needs to be taken as an equal level of importance.

And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees

by WhatwouldJeterdo on Nov 14, 2010 9:10 PM EST up reply actions  

No that's false.

If stats were disregarded then Billy Beane would never have found market inefficiencies that showed us why tradionalist thinking is flawed.

OBP would be udnervalued and we would be talking about RBI’s and how it’s a skill to drive runs in when it’s mostly luck.

Instead of figuring out that there’s this complicated concept that defense actually affects the pitchers (crazy right?) then we’d be looking at wins and losses. Apparently Cliff Lee is a middle of the pack pitcher.

Mock him all you want but Theo did a smart thing but focusing on pitching and defense. He got the entriely wrong people. But if stats measuring true defensive prowess didn’t exist then you’d be stuck looking at errors which means nothing.

You could have a 80 win team filled with 100 RBI players, .980 defensive players and with 3 pitchers with 20 wins and without sabermetrics we wouldn’t know why.

Sabermetrics changed baseball for the better. Unless you’re fine with not knowing how teams win games.

by Lolmoarpl0x on Nov 14, 2010 10:32 PM EST up reply actions  

You kind of lost me

I need a stat to tell me what an error means? Huh? I get that your saber stuff seperates the Swisher’s from the Melky’s but I dont think I need this stuff to tell me Pujols and ARod are great etc. Without sabermetrics I wouldnt know why a team won 80 games? Wow.

Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.

by YankeesJets on Nov 14, 2010 10:52 PM EST up reply actions  

This was a horrible explanation.

There's always next year

by david d on Nov 15, 2010 9:04 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree, I dont think the Pro-Metric people want this guy as their spokesman,lol

Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.

by YankeesJets on Nov 15, 2010 2:53 PM EST up reply actions  

in terms of the baseball world, these advanced statistics are as important as the invention of the car or lightbulb. When people only looked at batting average, they couldn’t figure out why hitters would have down years, or why a hitter would have a great year, and then be awful the rest of his career.

Nick Swisher’s example shows this. He hit .220 in 2008, and a lot of people who don’t look at the more in depth stats concluded that he is not a good player. When you look closer, however, you will see that his BABIP was only .250, 40 points below his career average. Combine that with his 20% line drive rates, his good gb/fb ratio, and good hr/fb ratio, and you get the picture that Swisher was really unlucky that year. His expected BABIP, as calculated based on your linedrive rate, speed, batter’s eye, and pitches per plate appearance, was .290, meaning that in a more luck neutral environment he would have hit .270. Cashman looked at things like this, knew that Swisher was in line for a big bounce back, and fleeced the White Sox.

For the same reasons, we can predict that Austin Jackson will not have as good a year next year. He got very lucky with his BABIP, and when you compare it to his expected value, his batting average should have been about 40 points lower, putting him at .263. He should improve as a player, so his average in 2011 should be somewhere between .263 and .300, but I would guess it will be closer to the low end.

These are just two examples of the power that some of the newer stats can give you when analyzing the game. If you are a more casual fan and don’t really care about the subtleties of the game or about predicting what might happen, then you don’t need these stats. If you are like me, however, and want to understand why someone is good, or why someone had a bad year, you have to use the new stats.

Montero will be our savior in 2011.

by Wraithpk on Nov 15, 2010 10:26 AM EST up reply actions  

At the same time

I look at someone like Tex who is clueless as to how to get a hit with the shift. Hitting is not all luck. With a slight adjustment in his approach Tex could add a bunch of base hits to his season. Players like Mattingly and Boggs would have been drooling at the site of a shift like the one employed against Tex.

There's always next year

by david d on Nov 15, 2010 10:38 AM EST up reply actions  

Teixeira’s wRC+ when he hits the ball to right field as a lefty hitter is 231. That’s Ruthian type numbers. When he hits the ball to left field, it’s -22. That’s about what Melkman would hit if she were on the Yankees. So tell me again, where do you want Teixeira hitting the ball?

Montero will be our savior in 2011.

by Wraithpk on Nov 15, 2010 4:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Is Tex listening to Bieber on his way to bat?

Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.

by YankeesJets on Nov 15, 2010 4:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Don't use that word here.

And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees

by WhatwouldJeterdo on Nov 15, 2010 4:34 PM EST up reply actions  

listening?

Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.

by YankeesJets on Nov 15, 2010 4:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Close.

And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees

by WhatwouldJeterdo on Nov 15, 2010 4:37 PM EST up reply actions  

I would be awesome if I played for the Yankees.

Click...click...click...damn, out of new taglines.

by TheMelkman on Nov 15, 2010 9:20 PM EST up reply actions  

The one thing that would make me start rooting for another team

Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.

by YankeesJets on Nov 15, 2010 10:05 PM EST up reply actions  

We need to come up with a better analogy for sabrmetrics than comparing Einstein's work to Newton's.

The ‘problem,’ if one exists at all with Newton’s theories is that the results do not obtain at relativistic velocities (objects moving at a substantial fraction of the speed of light). Most of us spend our entire lives moving at a rate that is virtually zero percent of the speed of light. (The speed of light is 186,000 miles per second, roughly six trillion miles per year). Therefor, even when we move at 500 mph on an airplane, compared to the speed of light, our velocity is essentially zero. Newton’s calculations are entirely correct when the velocities involved in the equation are 0% of the speed of light.

Quantum mechanics applies in a practical sense only to particles of subatomic size. One cannot predict the charge of the anti-Barndon halfway across the universe by knowing the orientation or charge of the PSA Barndon.

I have come to firmly believe that regardless of the usefulness of sabrmetrics as a measuring stick of performance, there is a very real problem with it- it allows nerds, geeks, and people like Bill James a measure of fame and notoriety that the rest us naturally resent.

by designatedquitter on Nov 15, 2010 10:29 AM EST reply actions  

The nerds will try anything to sit at the same table with the jocks,lol

Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.

by YankeesJets on Nov 15, 2010 3:05 PM EST up reply actions  

The real trouble, and subtext to this argument, is the idea that there could be a ‘right’ answer.
WAR is not a great stat. BA is not a great stat. OBP is not a great stat. But I am a smarter, more observant fan because I can look at all three, compare them, and by analyzing what the three say with a full understanding of each measure’s inherent weaknesses.

"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."

by jscape2000 on Nov 15, 2010 3:17 PM EST reply actions  

That's a fine take on it

I understand that metrics have a use in the game but like all other stats they have flaws. On top of that, I just hate the total disregard for the older stats. I understand that many pro-metric fans will put out there that a pitchers wins are not important but isn’t that why you play any game, to win? I dont care how they got the win, just that they got the win.

Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.

by YankeesJets on Nov 15, 2010 3:24 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not pro-metric

but I am pro-team stats, and that’s one. You kept saying “they” and that’s true. So, it’s more than just the pitcher that get’s the win.

Scenario: CC pitches into the 8th at home, giving up only 2 runs. He still needs the offense to score 3 runs in the bottom of the inning before the 9th starts for the scorer to give him the win. Is that really his win or the team’s?

by phonty on Nov 15, 2010 3:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Im kind of in the middle too

I do understand metrics have a place in the game, but the others do too. Most people like things simplified. Not because they are stupid but because of the convience. I get what you mean with the “team” win but arent they all team wins? Now if they could come up with a team error stat, that would be great.

Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.

by YankeesJets on Nov 15, 2010 3:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Who is actually completely against traditional stats here?

It’s just a matter that they don’t tell the whole story and there are better stats out there that come much closer to a more in-depth analysis.

by Monotonousblob on Nov 15, 2010 3:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Plenty of the metrics peeps are

I get that the metrics serve better in depth analysis, never said they didnt. My only thing against some of the metrics is that they also have flaws.

Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.

by YankeesJets on Nov 15, 2010 3:47 PM EST up reply actions  

So something like batting average with enormous, obvious, flaws should be defended and used, but something like wOBA with much smaller flaws shouldn’t because it has flaws too? Huh?

Questions or thoughts? Email me at duggan2423(at)gmail(dot)com

by Lord Duggan on Nov 15, 2010 3:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Im not defending anything as not having flaws

There has to a reason why they still use the stuff you say is worthless though.

Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.

by YankeesJets on Nov 15, 2010 4:01 PM EST up reply actions  

It is a natural inertia of ideas. The masses do not change their thinking overnight, regardless of how much better a new idea is.

Questions or thoughts? Email me at duggan2423(at)gmail(dot)com

by Lord Duggan on Nov 15, 2010 4:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Its not about warming up to a better idea

Its about taking a more siplistic approach. If you are working in the front office, it makes all the sense in the world to take advantage of these therories but if you are sitting on the couch with your pops, why would you care about these stats?
“Hey dad AJax is coming up next, I know he is hitting .300 but he wont get a hit here because he is just lucky”
“What do you mean, hes already 3 for 3?”
“Well his BABIP tells me he isnt good just lucky”
“Son are we watching baseball or playing blackjack?”

Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.

by YankeesJets on Nov 15, 2010 4:13 PM EST up reply actions  

No one does that. Again. For the 5th time.

And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees

by WhatwouldJeterdo on Nov 15, 2010 4:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Well good for them, but no one is saying that's necessary.

You don’t have to care about them while you are watching the game if you don’t want to.

And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees

by WhatwouldJeterdo on Nov 15, 2010 4:17 PM EST up reply actions  

I dont mind using them when evaluating a trade or a signing

Some here make it seem like they need to be used at all times.

Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.

by YankeesJets on Nov 15, 2010 4:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Everyone has said that if you are analyzing, use them.

If you don’t do anything but watch a game, who cares.

And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees

by WhatwouldJeterdo on Nov 15, 2010 4:19 PM EST up reply actions  

If you have no analytical interest in baseball whatsoever, and watch purely for entertainment, then by all means, know nothing about the intricate workings of the game.

If you want to get to work every day, you don’t need to know how a car works. But you also can’t tell a mechanic what the problem is when it stops working.

And I would guess from your frequenting analysis posts, your interest in baseball extends beyond cracking a beer on the couch and staring at the screen.

Questions or thoughts? Email me at duggan2423(at)gmail(dot)com

by Lord Duggan on Nov 15, 2010 4:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Okay, you got me there,lol

Funny thing, I used to be an auto mechanic too.

Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.

by YankeesJets on Nov 15, 2010 4:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Is there something wrong

with sitting on the couch, cracking open a beer, and watching the game? If so, about 99.7 percent of the fans are in need of help (Including myself).

There's always next year

by david d on Nov 15, 2010 4:51 PM EST up reply actions  

I dont think Duggan meant it as an insult

Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.

by YankeesJets on Nov 15, 2010 5:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Hmmmm

There's always next year

by david d on Nov 15, 2010 5:04 PM EST up reply actions  

He was saying that he sees me as someone that analysis the game more than your average fan.

Trust me, it wasnt an insult.

Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.

by YankeesJets on Nov 15, 2010 5:06 PM EST up reply actions  

analyzes*

Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.

by YankeesJets on Nov 15, 2010 5:06 PM EST up reply actions  

hey now, no taking shots at Jets fans

We do have the true best team in football.

Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.

by YankeesJets on Nov 15, 2010 8:58 PM EST up reply actions  

your trophy's in the mail

Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows

by Rorschach44 on Nov 15, 2010 9:31 PM EST up reply actions  

I hope its not coming C.O.D.

I would think it should be FREE

Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.

by YankeesJets on Nov 15, 2010 9:59 PM EST up reply actions  

ever since I increased my fiber intake

my turds haven’t been costing me at all.

So yea..free.

Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows

by Rorschach44 on Nov 15, 2010 10:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Always nice when you are regular

Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.

by YankeesJets on Nov 15, 2010 10:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Go back to listening to Justin B..,lol

Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.

by YankeesJets on Nov 15, 2010 5:07 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd rather never hear music again.

And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees

by WhatwouldJeterdo on Nov 15, 2010 5:07 PM EST up reply actions  

I wasn’t taking it that way, I was having fun! But I digress, I know you feel the need to inject your 2 cents worth at these “critical” moments..

There's always next year

by david d on Nov 15, 2010 5:08 PM EST up reply actions  

I wasn't replying to anything you said, David.

But thanks for interjecting your two cents towards my comment to YJ. I can comment whenever I’d like.

And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees

by WhatwouldJeterdo on Nov 15, 2010 5:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Of course you were

“someone wanted to try and take it that way…” Little old me?

There's always next year

by david d on Nov 15, 2010 5:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Only if you are the one feeling guilty.

And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees

by WhatwouldJeterdo on Nov 15, 2010 5:10 PM EST up reply actions  

You feisty today? Sigh…

There's always next year

by david d on Nov 15, 2010 5:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, sure.

And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees

by WhatwouldJeterdo on Nov 15, 2010 5:12 PM EST up reply actions  

C'mon

Writer for Pinstripe Alley, MLB Daily Dish
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Big Yankees and NY Rangers fan!
R.I.P. Freddy 'Sez', Bob Sheppard, George Steinbrenner

by Brandon C. on Nov 15, 2010 5:13 PM EST up reply actions  

No thanks.

And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees

by WhatwouldJeterdo on Nov 15, 2010 5:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Your example is independent of what stat is being used. If Nick Swisher is coming up to bat and is 0 for 3 on the night, I could say that he’s going to get a hit because his batting average is around .250. Do you do that? No, so why does everyone expect that we watch games with our calculators in hand just because we use newer stats?

Montero will be our savior in 2011.

by Wraithpk on Nov 15, 2010 4:54 PM EST up reply actions  

So when is it you are using these stats?

During the game? During the winter? Before or after the game?

Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.

by YankeesJets on Nov 15, 2010 5:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Whenever you want to

same as traditional stats, they are merely a more in-depth analysis of a data set.

by Monotonousblob on Nov 15, 2010 5:09 PM EST up reply actions  

I look at them when I want to see how well everyone on the team is playing, and when I’m writing an article or comment and want to have credibility with what I say

Montero will be our savior in 2011.

by Wraithpk on Nov 15, 2010 10:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Because that has nothing to do necessarily with how a pitcher pitched.

They could pitch as well as you can expect someone to, but if their defense let’s them down (Greinke, Zack) or they give up one run and their offense doesn’t score at all (Hernandez, Felix) they don’t get the win despite being a good pitcher. Their W-L record won’t be flashy. So saying “well, Hernandez only has x number of wins” is not an accurate way to measure how good he is.

It’s all about the whole picture, which can’t be found by just using batting average, or wins, or RBIs.

And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees

by WhatwouldJeterdo on Nov 15, 2010 3:33 PM EST up reply actions  

That's fine, I'm not saying that wins is the be all and end all when it comes to determining a pitchers worth

But to say that wins or RBIs dont matter is kinda odd. Plenty of the metrics people have made these proclamations. I think Duggan’s Joba vs Hughes argument proves that metrics arent used as much as one would think. They had similar stats while starting but Hughes is known as the golden boy while Joba is stuck in the pen.

Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.

by YankeesJets on Nov 15, 2010 3:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Wins and RBIs aren't good at measuring how good someone is.

If a lot of people are on in front of you, you’ll have a shiny RBI total. If no one is on in front of you, you won’t. It doesn’t have anything to do with how good you are really, but how good your teammates are at getting on base before you bat.

You can use those stats, but if you want to be convincing, you need to use something else too. I think the people who are against it think that you only have to use one “set” of statistics. That’s not true. A mix of both is what you want because that’s going to prove the most.

And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees

by WhatwouldJeterdo on Nov 15, 2010 3:49 PM EST up reply actions  

I never said it was what you use to measure how good someone is

But when you look at it, a guy with 300 wins is going to make it in the hall of fame over a guy with a great WHIP and 170 wins. And to say having a lot of RBIs doesn’t mean you are a good player is just insane.
A player would not be put in that spot in the order if he wasnt capable of driving in runs. The guys who lead teams in RBIs are usually in the 3-4-5 spots, which is where you usually put your money guys. That shiny RBI total makes players lots of money.

Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.

by YankeesJets on Nov 15, 2010 4:06 PM EST up reply actions  

It's not insane because it's not dependent on the player, but the players teammates.

Those people had to get on for the player to bat them in, that player didn’t create those runs on his own.

And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees

by WhatwouldJeterdo on Nov 15, 2010 4:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Most of the guys who hit those 3-4-5 spots are the teams HRs guys

Those RBIs dont count, right? The guys with the RBIs obviously are doing something to get the run in. They are just as important to the equation as the guys scoring the run. You could say DJ doesn’t score 100 runs a year without the RBI guys.

Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.

by YankeesJets on Nov 15, 2010 4:16 PM EST up reply actions  

They COUNT, but they don't make him amazing just because he gets RBIs.

You are trying to split hairs with this.

And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees

by WhatwouldJeterdo on Nov 15, 2010 4:18 PM EST up reply actions  

He doesn’t seem like the one splitting hairs

There's always next year

by david d on Nov 15, 2010 4:19 PM EST up reply actions  

That's your opinion, not mine.

And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees

by WhatwouldJeterdo on Nov 15, 2010 4:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Do you think

Cano would have had 100+ RBI if he hit .275 just because he was hitting 5th? Come on, his higher BA contributes greatly to the amount of runs he drives in.

There's always next year

by david d on Nov 15, 2010 4:18 PM EST up reply actions  

He still has more by batting for a higher average.

And those guys wouldn’t score without the RBI guy! That’s why debating which stats are better is ridiculous. They both work but some are more based on what other players do and vice versa.

There's always next year

by david d on Nov 15, 2010 4:23 PM EST up reply actions  

I never said they both don't work.

I said citing RBIs alone and saying “this person is good because he has a lot of them” isn’t enough. Saying a player is good because he has a lot of runs alone isn’t enough because someone had to bat him in. So alone, neither of those stats is enough, but added to other things, they are ok.

And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees

by WhatwouldJeterdo on Nov 15, 2010 4:26 PM EST up reply actions  

A player with 100 RBIs is more than likely good though

He would not be able to sustain that spot in the order if he wasnt bringing guys in.

Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.

by YankeesJets on Nov 15, 2010 4:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Sure, he probably is.

But his RBI total is not the end all, be all of goodness.

And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees

by WhatwouldJeterdo on Nov 15, 2010 4:29 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree with that

Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.

by YankeesJets on Nov 15, 2010 4:32 PM EST up reply actions  

A-Rod hit .270 and had 125 RBI this year. I have no idea what point you’re trying to make.

Questions or thoughts? Email me at duggan2423(at)gmail(dot)com

by Lord Duggan on Nov 15, 2010 4:21 PM EST up reply actions  

That if he hit .359 he would have had 150?

There's always next year

by david d on Nov 15, 2010 4:23 PM EST up reply actions  

160?

There's always next year

by david d on Nov 15, 2010 4:24 PM EST up reply actions  

170?

There's always next year

by david d on Nov 15, 2010 4:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Do you think Cano would have had 100+ RBI if he hit .275 just because he was batting 5th?

Clearly, as A-Rod hit .270, missed a bunch of time, and still had 125 RBIs, while Cano played all year, hit .319, and only had 109 RBI, the connection doesn’t seem to be there, now does it?

Cano was the better player all year, A-Rod simply had more RBI because of his spot in the lineup and dumb luck.

Questions or thoughts? Email me at duggan2423(at)gmail(dot)com

by Lord Duggan on Nov 15, 2010 4:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually, yes it does

He had TWO guys in front of him drive in over a hundred runs. There’s only so many left for him to drive in!

There's always next year

by david d on Nov 15, 2010 4:31 PM EST up reply actions  

And what happens to those guys in front of him getting all of the hits? They vanish from the basepaths when Cano comes to the plate?

Having good hitters in front of you helps you to accumulate RBI, which is the whole problem in the first place.

Scoring a run is a team event (unless there is a solo HR), and when you attribute that event to a single player, you aren’t doing anything but a gross and inaccurate oversimplification.

Questions or thoughts? Email me at duggan2423(at)gmail(dot)com

by Lord Duggan on Nov 15, 2010 4:37 PM EST up reply actions  

It is a team event just like the win

Its just not set up that way. If I see that a guy has alot of RBIs, Im pretty sure he is a good player to be put in that spot in the lineup.

Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.

by YankeesJets on Nov 15, 2010 4:41 PM EST up reply actions  

I love dumb luck

Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.

by YankeesJets on Nov 15, 2010 4:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Arod had 125 RBI, and Votto only had 113, so Arod was clearly the better hitter this year, right? Not even close. Arod’s wRC+ was 127, vs. 177 for Votto.

Montero will be our savior in 2011.

by Wraithpk on Nov 15, 2010 10:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Who's the best player according to the metrics?

Looking at numbers, I’d say Pujols.

There's always next year

by david d on Nov 15, 2010 4:01 PM EST reply actions  

Well

Fangraphs has Hamilton as AL and best overall, Votto as best NL
Baseball Reference has Longoria as best in AL, Pujols as best in NL

Fangraphs is usually seen as a better source for this as UZR is a better, more in-depth measure than runs saved

by Monotonousblob on Nov 15, 2010 4:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Exactly my point

I could have given those exact 4 names without ANY stats other than watching the games. And the “traditional”, “useless” stats already tell that story…

There's always next year

by david d on Nov 15, 2010 4:12 PM EST up reply actions  

so you would be okay

with a guy batting .359 and a .985 fielding % losing out to a guy batting .294 and a .966 fielding %

by Monotonousblob on Nov 15, 2010 4:16 PM EST up reply actions  

How many RBIs does the second guy have? LOL

Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.

by YankeesJets on Nov 15, 2010 4:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Longoria – 104
Hamilton – 100

by Monotonousblob on Nov 15, 2010 4:19 PM EST up reply actions  

It was a joke based on a conversation I was having above

And if Hamilton was on a last place team and Longoria a playoff team, who do you think wins?

Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.

by YankeesJets on Nov 15, 2010 4:23 PM EST up reply actions  

I would still give it to Hamilton

Value to the team does has correlation, but not causation, to good team performance. Pujols is still a legitimate MVP candidate even though his team lost and Felix is rightfully the Cy Young winner even though the team was horrible.

Baseball is a team game, which is why someone like McClutchen can have a higher WAR than the Pirates combined.

by Monotonousblob on Nov 15, 2010 4:27 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd give it to Cano

cuz I’m a homer and Hamilton missed several games and I just can’t give it to Longoria cuz he’s in our division.

There's always next year

by david d on Nov 15, 2010 4:30 PM EST up reply actions  

I wouldnt

I may be flawed in my argument with metrics but I can still comprehend what “Most Valuable” means. And I just can never understand how somebody could be considered most valuable to a last place team. I mean what would they do without him? Um, still finish last?

Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.

by YankeesJets on Nov 15, 2010 4:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Without Cano we would still have finished 2nd

so why was he so valuable? Without Hamilton, Texas would still have finished first.

Team sport.

by Monotonousblob on Nov 15, 2010 4:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe

That’s debatable and unknown

There's always next year

by david d on Nov 15, 2010 4:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Im not saying not to give it to Hamilton, he does deserve it

Im saying if he was on a last place team, and Longo was on a playoff team with lesser stats, Longo should get it.

Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.

by YankeesJets on Nov 15, 2010 4:49 PM EST up reply actions  

That's not how value is determined

The worlds richest man lives in Mexico, should he be lower in rankings since he didn’t make Mexico a better country financially?

The Hope Diamond is just as valuable in the US as it is in Ethiopia.

by Monotonousblob on Nov 15, 2010 4:56 PM EST up reply actions  

So you think a guy that leads his team to a championship or the playoffs at worst...

..isnt as valuable as a guy who had a great season on a last place team? Im glad you dont have an MVP vote. I dont have a problem with Felix winning Cy Young because its not the most valuable pitcher award. I dont see how a guy can be most valuable to a last place team. Where would they be without him?

Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.

by YankeesJets on Nov 15, 2010 5:01 PM EST up reply actions  

I just answered that, 1 player rarely has an influence on a teams overall standing

Would you take away Pujols’ awards if he put up the same numbers for the Pirates?

by Monotonousblob on Nov 15, 2010 5:05 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah, I bet he wouldnt have them on the Pirates

Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.

by YankeesJets on Nov 15, 2010 5:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Other than Andre Dawson or ARod ...

I cant recall many last place guys, no matter how good the stats, winning the MVP. Ive always been an advocate to changing the name of the award or adding another one.

Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.

by YankeesJets on Nov 15, 2010 5:12 PM EST up reply actions  

The definition for the MVP award is “the player who contributed the most to his team’s success.” Some people have taken that to mean that the MVP must be on a team that was successful, by definition. I think the wording should be changed to “best all around player in the league.”

The CY is different. The wording on it is “best pitcher in the league,” so a pitcher whose team sucks, and by extension may not have gotten a lot of wins, can still win the award.

Montero will be our savior in 2011.

by Wraithpk on Nov 15, 2010 11:09 PM EST up reply actions  

It's close, so I just rounded down

I figure we could get .4 WAR out of Nunez at least

by Monotonousblob on Nov 16, 2010 2:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, I wouldn’t try and speculate what the next guy on the depth chart would have done, when making an argument like this, I would say compare everyone to a constant, which is what the “replacement level player” is.

Montero will be our savior in 2011.

by Wraithpk on Nov 16, 2010 4:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Saying you don’t need any stats to tell you Albert Pujols is good is like saying you don’t need a ruler to know that your computer is bigger than a pencil. Well, yeah, of course.

But what if you have two pencils? Then you might want a ruler. And you might want an accurate ruler.

Questions or thoughts? Email me at duggan2423(at)gmail(dot)com

by Lord Duggan on Nov 15, 2010 4:20 PM EST up reply actions  

A ruler like Napoleon?

Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.

by YankeesJets on Nov 15, 2010 4:24 PM EST up reply actions  

I just appreciate metrics for giving me something to chat about while I wait for the wife to come home

Jets boards are never as busy as PSA.

Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.

by YankeesJets on Nov 15, 2010 4:26 PM EST reply actions  

Yeah, me too

I understand them and understand their use, it’s just annoying when the metrics people totally discount other stats.

There's always next year

by david d on Nov 15, 2010 4:28 PM EST up reply actions  

you keep saying that

but offer nothing substantial to back it up when it is shown metrics do discount other stats. Without advanced metrics people would wonder how A-Jax went from hitting .400 early in the year to .230 later on, but we know exactly why and BA doesn’t show it.

It also shows why Cano’s BA w/RISP was so much higher this year.

by Monotonousblob on Nov 15, 2010 4:31 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think any stat

discounts another. I think metrics can be used to enhance other stats and used for a deeper analysis of a players overall results. The “hows” and “whys”.

There's always next year

by david d on Nov 15, 2010 4:35 PM EST up reply actions  

One thing you can do, however, is look at how predictive each stat has been

So you look at the Royals, with their AL leading team average, and wonder why their runs scored put them in the middle of the pack. And the Yankees, who have a lower average, but an AL leading OBP, and an AL leading offense (in terms of runs scored).

Describing the “what” of an event is usually adequately done by older counting stats like HR, RBIs, etc. I read a great comment somewhere that they ARE indeed the most important stats, because they tell what happened. But how much value does that really have when I’m analyzing the results and hoping to draw inferences going forward? This is where the idea of studying peripherals comes in, because they can be more predictive of players’ future performance.

by pkyankeefan on Nov 15, 2010 6:23 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Because I’m bored, I calculated the standard deviation of rankings of runs scored vs. wRC+, batting average, and OBP. For wRC+, it is 2.7, for average it is 5.2, and for OBP it is 3.5. Basically, wRC+ and OBP are much better indicators of runs scored than batting average. Just for instance, the Rays had the fourth lowest average, and scored the third most runs.

Montero will be our savior in 2011.

by Wraithpk on Nov 15, 2010 11:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Why, they won?

Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.

by YankeesJets on Nov 15, 2010 4:31 PM EST up reply actions  

1-7

glad I don’t like footbal

by Monotonousblob on Nov 15, 2010 4:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Once the owner dies, the Bills will improve

Jets had the same problem with Leon Hess. Stupid owners putting the wrong guys in charge.

Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.

by YankeesJets on Nov 15, 2010 4:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Every time someone brings up the salary cap in baseball

and how it would influence parity, I remind them that in a combined 80 years under salary caps, Buffalo has only come close enough to get screwed by referees, injuries, and missed field goals

by Monotonousblob on Nov 15, 2010 4:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Its funny but a salary cap hasnt caused the NFL to not have same few playoff teams like baseball

Sure in baseball the Yanks and Sox usually make it, but in football almost every year you have the Pats, Steelers, and Colts in there. It all comes down to who is in charge. The right people in charge will help a team become successful, the wrong people and you are the Pirates, the Clippers or the Bills.

Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.

by YankeesJets on Nov 15, 2010 4:59 PM EST up reply actions  

exactly

Extra money really only allows teams to withstand mistakes better, as well as hold on to top players instead of getting a good return, and much cheaper, alternative.

Does anyone expect the Mets or Rays to be better than the Rangers or Cubs for the next few years?

by Monotonousblob on Nov 15, 2010 5:03 PM EST up reply actions  

I expect the Rays and Rangers to be much better than the Mets and Cubs

For years to come actually.

Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.

by YankeesJets on Nov 15, 2010 5:08 PM EST up reply actions  

and I'm going to enjoy every minute of it

I like seeing small market teams do well because it gives me hope. (I don’t consider the Rangers a small market though, just cheap and really poorly run.)

by Monotonousblob on Nov 15, 2010 5:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Seeing the Mets' front office gives me pause, though

You’d have to think getting smart guys to manage a large-ish payroll can be productive. Maybe not next year, but I’d expect an improvement in three years.

by pkyankeefan on Nov 15, 2010 6:25 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Mets fans are really excited at having to wait 3 years to be good

Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.

by YankeesJets on Nov 15, 2010 7:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Once the owner dies, they’ll be the Los Angeles Bills, and then Buffalo will be a really miserable place.

"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."

by jscape2000 on Nov 15, 2010 7:49 PM EST up reply actions  

That would be an awful mistake

Bills fans actually support their team. The Chargers have already had blackouts this year, they should go.

Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.

by YankeesJets on Nov 15, 2010 8:59 PM EST up reply actions  

The Bills just had 2 blackouts in a row, though Toronto is a more likely scenario

Nobody wants to watch a loser, especially when that loser is playing the Lions.

by Monotonousblob on Nov 15, 2010 10:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Ha, this post made me laugh

It took awhile before Bills fans stopped going, I always thought they had a solid fanbase. I dont think the games in Toronto was a great way to thank the Buffalo fans.

Should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be facing a finality beyond your comprehension, and you will not be counting days, or months, or years, but milleniums in a place with no doors.

by YankeesJets on Nov 15, 2010 10:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, a lot of downtown businesses (mainly bars)

rely on the increased attendance from home games and watching on TV, so taking away a home game and moving it to Toronto, as well as blackouts, really hurts the entire area.

by Monotonousblob on Nov 16, 2010 2:11 PM EST up reply actions  

TV blackouts...

I never understood why those exist in the NFL. What is the point exactly? It seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face. Do they really think that an extra 10,000 fans are going to buy $80 tickets due to the threat of the game not being on TV?

As for the Bills’ Toronto games I think most of the businesses losing out would agree that 7 home games are better than 0. Even in the NFL where they share the TV money, it’s really hard to find enough revenue in a market like Buffalo. Playing games in Toronto is really an example of the team looking for a way to keep the team in Western NY.

by Let's Talk About Tex Baby on Nov 16, 2010 3:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Exactly

and Buffalo is shrinking, not growing.
Like when the Expos started playing in San Juan, I think this search for extra revenue is a sign that the prospects of a permanent move are just too tempting to resist.

"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."

by jscape2000 on Nov 16, 2010 4:11 PM EST up reply actions  

they are useful tools

but they are not religion and they do not have all the answers. theres more to defense then UZR, more to batting then BAIBIP, or OPS+ or any of that. some stats are totally worthless, like game winning RBI. however, watching a player play is still the best way to evaluate them.

עם ישראל חי

by nodisrespect on Nov 17, 2010 9:25 PM EST reply actions  

Its hard to watch them all.

And see the past players. We use the stats as guidelines.

"People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball. I’ll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring. " ~Rogers Hornsby

MFY fan.

by Jeterian 2 on Nov 17, 2010 9:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Nice signature

“The people of Israel are alive”
Right?

by pastor2b on Nov 18, 2010 11:49 AM EST up reply actions  

Very well-written post

I never really paid much attention to sabremetrics until maybe about 2 years ago, and I still don’t really bother with some of them, but several of the more common ones (UZR, FIP, BABIP, OPS+, ERA+, etc) really give you a whole new way to look at the game.

It’s still easier and acceptable to me to look at BA, ERA, WHIP, and some of the standard stats to determine generally whether a player is good or not, but the new stats are really useful if you want to know how good or bad and why.

Scioscialist Party of America - Redistributing your defense since 2000.

by Commander_Nate on Nov 18, 2010 7:57 PM EST reply actions  

Yeah, the new stats can give a new perspective that you may not have seen before. It is incredibly hard to judge players who play the game in different ways, like comparing a power hitter to a speed player. wRC+ actually allows you to do this. The traditional stats are not completely worthless, they each tell you something important, but each are limited in what they say and don’t give you the full picture. Some of the sabremetric stats attempt to give you a complete picture. wRC+ succeeds remarkably at this, to the point where you can almost throw out other offensive stats. UZR does not succeed as well, it’s a good starting point, but you still need to look at other things before coming to a conclusion.

Montero will be our savior in 2011.

by Wraithpk on Nov 19, 2010 10:28 AM EST up reply actions  

One of the best posts I have read. Well done!

by Jtmc on Nov 26, 2010 11:15 AM EST reply actions  

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