Strengthening My Case Against Cliff Lee
by Lord Duggan on Oct 14, 2010 10:00 AM EDT
in New York Yankees Analysis
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I may be jumping the gun getting into this type of "offseaony talk" while the playoff battle is still being pitched, but a match up with the Texas Rangers in the upcoming ALCS has led to renewed chatter about soon to be free agent Cliff Lee. From the beginning, I have been fully against signing him (probably putting me in the extreme minority), and I'd like to flesh out why.
I originally posted on this topic a few weeks ago about some of the financial concerns about adding not only the dollar amount, but the years of commitment required in Cliff Lee's estimated free agent price. I still have those same concerns, but I think that there are several other solid points that should be noted:
To whatever degree you are inclined to believe my trepidation about the overall financial situation of the Yankees, I think we can all agree on the following: If the Yankees sign Cliff Lee, he will be worth every penny of his contract in the first few years (hopefully leading the team to a World Series ring or two) and then the deep pockets of the Yankees will deal with the contract when he's a 37 year old being paid like an ace.
My question, however, is this: How much more likely are the Yankees to win the World Series in the next few years if Cliff Lee is added, and does that justify the potential long term cost?
More words and a very interesting table can be found after the jump.
A gift from the Table Fairy: Below can be found a list of the World Series winners, their regular season win totals, and how that win total ranked across baseball.
If there was any doubt that, in the Wild Card era, the playoffs in baseball are a total crap-shoot, this should have removed it. Going by win-loss record over a 162 game sample gives a much better indication of which teams were actually better, and from this it is pretty clear that winning the World Series is much more about getting lucky and getting hot at the right time than it is about actually being the best team.
With that said, which of the following situations is better in terms of winning the maximum number of championships: Making the playoffs five times as a relatively average playoff contender OR making the playoffs three times as the playoff favorite and missing the playoffs twice? Given the established randomness of the playoffs, I would contend that the former option is much better.
By merely maintaining the status quo, the Yankees are already close to a lock for making the playoffs in the next few seasons (or as close to a lock as you can be, assuming 2/3 of the Yankees, Red Sox, Rays trio makes it every year). As such, I have to really question the marginal gain in adding Cliff Lee (especially when Cliff Lee in and of himself does not guarantee a playoff spot). If we are already likely to make the playoffs and if the playoffs are a celebration of small sample size randomness, is it worth putting another major dent in the Yankees future finances? Again, I would contend that it is not.
If another starting pitcher is needed for the 2011 season, I think there are plenty of cheaper and more cost effective ways for the Yankees to maintain a high probability of reaching the playoffs. Firstly, Joba Chamberlain needs to be given a full year of starting. One truncated season of mediocre results (4.56 xFIP, 1.8 WAR) in the AL East at the age of 23 is nowhere near conclusive proof that Joba can't/won't/shouldn't start.
In addition to Joba, Ivan Nova has shown flashes of brilliance, and in the pile of Andrew Brackman, Dellin Betances, Manuel Banuelos, D.J. Mitchell, and Adam Warren, I have to think we have some potential 2012/2013 starters and 2011 bullpen contributors. In addition, I would have to guess that this off season, the Yankees start moving their glut of catching depth.
Personally, if I were Brian Cashman, I would already be trying to build a package centered around Austin Romine to acquire a starting pitcher. Romine is likely to attract a lot of suitors in the National League due to his sterling defensive reputation, and I don't think his trade value will ever be higher than it is now. I have never been of the opinion that Romine will hit enough to take away playing time from guys like Jesus Montero or Gary Sanchez, and in my view, he represents a redundancy of Francisco Cervelli.
Another year of league average hitting at AA (99 wRC+) will only diminish his value as a prospect, and as the Yankees have a surplus of catching prospects, I think they would be advised to flip Romine as quickly as possible.
In addition to acquiring a starter via trade, I think there are also cheaper, "reclamation" type free agents available at a much more manageable price: Erik Bedard, Justin Duchscherer, Rich Harden, Ted Lilly, Ben Sheets, or Brandon Webb will all be free agents this off season, and if I'm Brian Cashman, I look at each and every one of them before I think about Cliff Lee.
To summarize, for those of you who managed to stay with me to the end: The Yankees are all about winning the World Series. Winning the World Series is all about making the playoffs. There are cheaper ways for the Yankees to make the playoffs in the short term that do not jeopardize their ability to continue to field a playoff team in the long term.
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Very valid points
i know i was devastated when i thought we lost Jesus for Cliff Lee… as much as i love his talents, there is likely no way we can get him for only a couple years. He has some injury history and as he gets older its more likely to catch up with him. I feel very good about our depth in the farm system right now.
Yes yes yes
Awesome post Duggan, spelled out my thoughts exactly.
"Game's the same, just got more fierce." ~ Slim Charles
Pitching wins in the postseason
I hear you, Duggan, and to some extent agree with you. But I think the Yankees are going to take a shot at getting Cliff Lee. Some thoughts in no particular order…
1. He offsets the possible departure of Pettitte and/or insulates against the erratic tendencies of AJ and/or represents a serious upgrade over Javy.
2. In later seasons he slots in nicely as a lower-rotation starter, or as a trustworthy reliever.
3. The guy has great control, which supports #1 and #2. No inopportune walks! Especially when the Yankees are likely to have ongoing problems throwing baserunners out in steal attempts for the foreseeable future.
4. His presence makes it far less likely CC is going anywhere via the opt-out clause in his contract… and it makes it less likely CC’s agent would use the clause to extort even more money from the Yankees.
5. Most of the core 4 will retire in the next few years, freeing up cash to pay for the latter years of Lee’s contract and more.
6. Lee could be a positive influence on the rest of the pitching staff, raising the level of all their performances… especially with the Yankees likely to bring up a number of young arms, not to mention the still-young Joba and Hughes.
7. Lee shows an ability to handle the pressure of big situations. Not everyone (example: Javy) can do that, and in New York it’s important.
8. The Yankees play under different rules. Everyone seems to complain about their cash and their unfair advantage (I can make a good case to the contrary), but the reality is this: Lee will put fans in the seats, which means more revenue. Will he make the Yankees more money overall than his contact will cost? If so, it’s a done deal. This was the reasoning behind signing A-Rod to his present contract, too: a compelling case could be made that the Yankees made money by signing him, even though the contract on strictly baseball merits looks questionable in the later years of the deal.
(Aside: if I were Lee’s agent, I’d present my case in exactly those terms: he projects to increase the Yankees’ revenue by x dollars, therefore he’s a bargain at <<x cost.)
9. Know what every one of those World Series winners had? Great starting pitching.
I agree with the vast majority of what’s said here and I add one further point – Pettitte missed nearly 2 months this season and will be 39 next season. It’s impossible to bank on his health, assuming, of course, that he even chooses to return.
Next year’s rotation as of today:
1. C.C. Sabathia
2. Phil Hughes
3. A.J. Burnett
4. Ivan Nova
5. Joba Chamberlain/David Phelps/Hector Noesi/D.J. Mitchell/Alfredo Aceves
Current Yankee Free Agents (or non-tender candidates): Andy Pettitte, Sergio Mitre, Chad Gaudin, Dustin Moseley, Jason Hirsch, Javier Vazquez
Unlikely to be Ready to start in the Bronx Opening Day: Manny Banuelos, Andrew Brackman, Dellin Bettances, Adam Warren
If Pettitte retires, which I don’t get why everyone is 100% assuming won’t happen, then we’re left with a 4th and 5th starter tandem that is young, unproven and has only Chamberlain that is considered particularly high upside. The free agent market is weak: filled with injury recovery guys (Duchscherer, Francis, Webb, Harden, Bedard, Sheets), guys who are 35+ (Lilly – a bad fit for the Stadium because he has the highest fly ball rate in baseball, Kuroda, Pavano, Davis, Moyer) or guys that just aren’t very good (Harang, Garland, Padilla, Snell, Penny, Robertson, Wellemeyer, etc).
The only pitcher that I think could be a fairly reliable signing from this class, other than Lee, is Jorge de la Rosa (still young, upside).
Who knows what would be available on the trade market? And why move prospects (and then pay the pitcher) when we can sign a top-flight guy? Lee has proven himself to be a great pitcher and the Yankees don’t operate under a budget like other teams. A rotation of Sabathia/Lee/Hughes/Pettitte/Burnett could be one of the best in Yankee history. Even if you subtract Pettitte from that and fill the 5th spot with a combination of young guys or an injury recovery gamble it’s still a MUCH stronger rotation that his season.
These two guys made my points for me brilliantly
Playoff ‘hotness’ depends on strong starting pitching- all 4 of this year’s Championship contenders are being carried by incredible starters. The Yanks’ ’09 run went only as far as their 3 starters could carry them.
Here’s my point to add:
2010 FA, Type A (age): Jorge De La Rosa (30), Cliff Lee (32), Ted Lilly (35), Carl Pavano (35), Andy Pettitte (39)
2011 FA, my judgment (age): Mark Buehrle (33), Chris Carpenter (37), Roy Oswalt (34)
I wish Lee was a couple years younger, but who else on that list is worth going after? Buehrle maybe, but he might work out an extension with Chicago. Everyone else, is meh for me- I think they’ll get a big dollar multi year offer that the Yankees should not match.
Duggan, you make a great case against signing a guy like Crawford or Werth, because the amount Werth is better than a Swisher is marginal compared to the cost.
But great starting pitching is a different animal. It doesn’t hit the FA market very often, so when it does you have to make a big commitment.
I also want to use one of your arguments against you: let’s assume the offense is locked into a downward spiral the next several seasons as Jeter, Arod and Tex age. Isn’t great starting pitching then that much more important?
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
let’s assume the offense is locked into a downward spiral the next several seasons as Jeter, Arod and Tex age. Isn’t great starting pitching then that much more important?
I would argue that, flexibility is the most important thing to ensure a consistently competitive team, especially in the example you just gave.
Assuming the Yankees have no choice but to resign Jeter for 4 years at something close to his current salary and sign Cliff Lee for probably no less than 5 years/$25 million, you’re looking at a payroll comittment of about $120 million for the 2014 season to 5 guys – CC, Tex, A-Rod, Jeter, and Lee – who’s average age will be almost 37 that year.
Guys that old do get hurt (even Hall of Famers) and they do slow down (even Hall of Famers), and it’s rare in baseball history to find a championship caliber team that relied so heavily on a core group of players that old – maybe the 2001-02 Diamondbacks, but that’s about it.
On top of that, nobody on the current roster (other than Brett Gardner) is under team control for 2014. Between then and now, they’re going to need to figure out how to keep or replace Robinson Cano, Phil Hughes, Nick Swisher, Curtis Granderson, Mariano Rivera, AND fill 14 other roster spots. Without a circa 2000 Oakland A’s farm system, that’s going to be tough unless they’re willing to take the payroll to the $250 million range.
The Yankees going to win 90+ games nearly every season, and they’re going to make the playoffs nearly every season, where they stand at least a 12% chance of winning the World Series. Maybe Lee bumps the expectation to 92+ wins, and a 15% chance of winning the WS. It isn’t that much. Nobody has a 50% chance of winning the World Series until they actually get there.
I don’t think the marginal advantages of signing Lee outweigh the significant loss of payroll flexibility.
Do we have any reason to think the payroll won’t be $250M in 4 years? We’re at $213M now.
Link to a sortable payroll table running back to 1988.
Let’s look at five year samples
2010 $ 206,333,389 2005 $ 208,306,817 +124% 2000 $ 92,938,260 +99% 1995 $ 46,657,016 +121.9% 1990 $ 20,991,318
The payroll hasn’t increased in the last few seasons, but the combination of the recession and building New Yankee Stadium have to be factored into that.
And, you’re right about 2014, it could be an ugly year, but it could also be a planned for single year of unbelievably high payroll while contracts expire. It depends a huge amount on management (Hank, Hal and Cash) and their foresight.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
I agree that starting pitching is the most valuable commodity in the game because there is such a small quantity of it. I, however, disagree with the adage that “starting pitching wins in the playoffs.” I think that’s about as reality based as “good hitters bat .300,” “good pitchers win 20 games,” and “don’t use your closer in the 9th inning on the road.”
Last year in the playoffs, the Yankees 3 starters had the following ERAs.
CC – 1.98
Andy – 3.52
AJ – 5.27
So, CC was incredible, Andy was solid, and AJ pretty much sucked. That’s hardly going “only as far as their 3 starters could carry them.” They, however, scored 80 runs in 15 games (5.33 runs/game), so I would make the contention that the Yankees World Series run was a function of their offense, with the only great starting pitching coming from CC.
And, as Kuri and others have said, look at the great starting pitching the Braves had. Starting pitching is important in winning playoff games, but it is very far from the end all be all that it is perceived as.
Questions or thoughts? Email me at duggan2423(at)gmail(dot)com
Bad math alert
The playoffs don’t care about the averages. What matters is winning 3 games before losing 3, winning 4 before losing 4, then winning 4 before losing 4.
AJ had a terrible game for each solid game. So long as the stinkers and the gems happen in the right sequence, the average matters less.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
yep
Burnett pitched well in the ALDS, game 2 of the ALCS, and game 2 of the WS.
The other two were atrocious. Better have it like this than have it 5 runs every game.
Hello everyone, my name is Curtis Granderson, and I'm a bus-o-holic
A supporter of the MFY.
But despite Burnett’s ability to throw a good game when he’s on, he also has the ability to take his team entirely out of a game (which he did on several occasions).
I don’t think that supports the idea that quality starting pitching is the end all be all of playoff baseball. The Yankees won the World Series with an ace, a solid pitcher, and a guy who had about a 50% chance of forfeiting the game.
To me, that says there’s a LOT more to winning the World Series than having quality starters.
Questions or thoughts? Email me at duggan2423(at)gmail(dot)com
The Yankees cannot start a year with Nova in the rotation
He is just not good enough and will not be.
He’s a spot starter, long reliever.
Sign 2 FA pitchers. I’d like one to be Andy Pettitte.
"You don't realize how easy this game is until you get up in that broadcasting booth." Mickey
Of course they can START a year with Nova
Season is 6 months long!
"you're the Rod Thorn in my Chris Bosh side."
by Chris Child's Fist on Oct 15, 2010 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions
The key to the Wild Card Era playoffs is pitching
Lee is a proven postseason performer. He doesn’t rely on velocity, and barring an unforeseen injury should be great through his entire contract. He’s a must sign if Andy retires. I also can’t think of a nearly equivalent starting pitcher that will be available via trade this year, and I wouldn’t trade a top prospect like Romine for an NL pitcher with no significant AL experience.
by upstateNYYFan1984 on Oct 14, 2010 10:41 AM EDT reply actions
eh, I'll have to disagree
While the caution of signing Lee to a long term deal is very valid, I think you’re ignoring a lot of things.
Exhibit A: CC Sabathia. You claim that Lee, being 32 is now at the peak of his game and its only a matter of time before he falls apart, meanwhile CC signed a 7 year $161 million dollar not too long ago at the spritely age of 29. That means when his contract is up he’ll be 36. Is anyone complaining about that monster of a contract? no. Because he’s producing big time.
Exhibit B: Any Pettitte. While the back problems shouldn’t be completely ignored, I think they are getting over exaggerated by anyone who sees Lee as too good to be true. Andy Pettitte has had back problems for several years now and he still seems to be going fine. Many pitchers have muscle spasms, heck many fielders do too, that doesn’t mean there’s something wrong with them. I’m sure that Texas heat doesn’t help a whole lot either, which is where the back problems really became an issue. Even David Robertson has back problems and he’s 25, so age isn’t always a factor. If all goes right, Lee will be that gritty veteran that Andy has been.
Winning: consider the idea that we basically had a second CC Sabathia, a hard throwing, high endurance ace and tell me that he won’t make us favorites for more than one world series title? Think about what the Yankees could have done with another 10 wins, they’d have won the division. The idea of passing up Lee, a guy who can nail down our rotation (especially if Andy retires), for Erik Bedard and Brandon Webb is somewhat ridiculous. Look at how shaky our rotation was the second half, if we had Lee we’d have another definite in there. Yes Lee would make us that more likely to win.
While I agree we shouldn’t throw the Yankees bank account at him, i’m sure a reasonable contract for 5 years can be made. The years are the bigger concern than the money really and Lee shouldn’t get in the way of bringing up the youth.
Cliff Lee won’t be the disaster you think he will be, he’s a proven work horse and only 2 years older than our own proven work horse, so if the only difference are those 2 years then I think you’re nitpicking. Lee should be our first priority so we can see if we can get him before texas can, then you can look at other pieces. Without Lee (and if Andy retires) we run the risk of looking a lot more like 2008, remember that year? Also I wouldn’t trade Romine just yet, he’s been rated high on a lot of top prospect lists and it’s still not known if Montero can be the catcher of the future.
Lee and CC in a 7 game series is pretty much 4 guaranteed wins. (Three if you want to be safe)
Pay that man his money. I’m not worried about his back because as we saw with Andy, we have the offense and depth to survive without him for a month or two if he wants to rest. He wouldn’t ever have to be rushed back and risk re-injury. I hate to be this optimistic but if we were lucky enough to sign Cliff this offseason that’s almost two2 or three more rings guaranteed. I’ll let my man Teddy KGB sum up my feelings….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jUBbCgMWmE
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
I can't believe someone loves that character as much as I do.
If we don’t sign Lee he will give my favorite line from that movie to Cashman. It will go like this, your back for more? Cashman you didn’t learn from the last time I stuck it in you? I agree, pay him the money. Christ I could be dead next year and I like it when there dominant not lucky. Luck runs out but dynastys are built by mentally tough extremely talented men. I can see your points but bulletts are permanent so win now and worry about tommorow if there is one.
My revolver shoots a big load? Have the new cobbs printed Yankees WS 2011 shirts to wear at Xmas yet? Selig said I have to keep it on the down low but the cream is ok the clear is not. Woo Who home runs galore.
by cashman bashman on Oct 15, 2010 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions
I actually agree with you for once
the team doesn’t need Lee, there are some good young pitchers in the minors ( I know god forbid they’re given a real chance to make the team), Take the gloves off Joba and tell him if he wants to be a starter he needs to pitch like one. As for the money and contract we’re stuck with some long ones already , who knows if Burnett will rebound and he’s got 3 years left, even if Cashman found someone to take him the Steinbrenners would be paying his salary. I’d say have a legitimate competition in spring for the #5 spot and if Pettitte retires, which I expect if we win the World Series again, sign Ted Lilly for cheap on a one year deal and if he flunks we’ll have more options. Now I don’t agree with your assessment of Romine, I think he’s our primary future catcher and much better than Cervelli. I think a platoon of him and Montero while keeping the DH spot open 2 or 3 times a week for the old guys will be more than sufficient. Of course most of that depends on when Jorge calls it quits.
I think you will be crazy not to sign Lee
He is one of the greatest pitchers in baseball, and you have the money to get him. Why not?
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 11:16 AM EDT reply actions
Your boys can't afford him after Lackey/Beckett?
"I'm just tryin' to be the great, tryin' to get a piece of cake
Take it offa your plate, eat it right in your face" --Lil Wayne
Every year we have a chance to make it the playoffs.
Cliff Lee is a great pitcher. There is no doubt about that. We pretty much already know that we are going to the playoffs every year. Cliff Lee only makes it slightly more probable. If we already know that we are going to the playoffs, why spend a ton of money on someone who can do the same job as someone else for 10 times as much? I myself would like to get Cliff Lee, but Duggan makes a good case.
Ted Lily is a great option for us instead of Cliff Lee. After Lily was traded to the Cubs, he was lights out. He was 7-4 with a 3.52 ERA and he had a 0.99 WHIP. We could get him for 10-12 million dollars. That’s a fraction of the cost of Lee.
There's no half-singing in the shower, you're either a rock star or an opera diva.
The issue isn't whether he's good; it's whether he is affordable long-term
While I agree that we should try for him, it’s not quite as simple as “We have the money, so let’s get him.”
As he ages, will he still be the pitcher he is right now? Maybe, but probably not.
As he ages, will he be getting paid like the pitcher he is now? Most likely yes.
When he is being paid like CC to pitch like Andy/AJ, will the Yankees need to find a new #2? If he turns into Andy, maybe; if he turns into AJ, definitely.
What would have to be sacrificed to pick up a new #2 if it is necessary? Possibly another position or two, at which point we may not be able to compete any more.
If we can set up a contract with him so that as he ages he gets paid based on services (to be) rendered instead of on services (previously) rendered, I think we should definitely go for it. if not, we could get seriously burned down the road.
Phil Hughes = #2
When Lee ages and is no longer a worthy #2 (or co-#1 as the case may be), Phil Hughes will still be in his prime. He’s your #2.
Before signing CC I had a similar conversation..
How much is he worth?
I said then this: “If they win 1 Title in the first 5 years of his deal, he’s worth every penny.” But now my opinion has changed because I got greedy.
Now I think that the Yanks need to win at least 1 in the next 4 for CC’s contract to be worth it, so 2 out of the first 5 years.
If we add Cliff Lee next year, I would say we must win 2 of his first 5 years, also. That means winning 2 or 3 of the next 6 titles in order for it to be worth their pay.
So basically I’m looking for a repeat of the ‘96-’00 team. Which, adding Lee, will give us a significant chance of happening. CC, Lee, Hughes, AJ (if he straightens up) and someone else. Devestating.
Let's cut through the crap, Vaughn. I only got one thing to say to you: "Strike this mother f*cker out."
If the Yankees sign Lee
he’ll go 34 and 0. If the Yankees don’t sign Lee, they’ll go 0-162. You’re Sabremetrics are futile.
Winning cures all...even stupid
35-0
The Yankees will force him to make a start on short rest.
He's also not a true ace
cuz he doesn’t have the testicles to pitch on short rest.
Winning cures all...even stupid
All joking aside, that's actually my one reservation with Lee
I wouldn’t want to pay a pitcher like an ace if he is unwilling to pitch on short rest in the postseason if that’s what it takes.
Say the Yankees rotation somehow goes down the toilet next year the same way it did last year, and our only dependable starters are CC, Lee, and Hughes. If they aren’t all willing to pitch on short rest in the ALCS/WS, what do we do?
As for the years/money, I think we should be able to find a way to make it work:
5 or 6 years at an average of $22-24 million, starting him off on the high side, and then taper it off toward the last couple years with bonuses based on performance. If we’re lucky, we might even be able to set it up in such a way that his last year or 2 he can either be a $10 million dollar dud, or a $25 million dollar ace!
Dellin Betances and Manny Banuelos.
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
by CasanovaWong on Oct 14, 2010 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't think he was unwilling
I believe Charlie Manuel and Ron Washington were unwilling to let him because he’s never done it before, no?
I don't know what to do!! My whole brain is crying!
Wouldn’t bug me one bit to incentivize Lee’s contract, even if it means he might get paid MORE if all the incentives pan out.
Example: say Lee wants $25 million per year for 6 years. I’d just as soon see the Yankees pay $25 million per year for seasons #1-3, then pay a guaranteed $10 million per year PLUS $20 million incentives per year for years #4-6. The incentives would be: make a certain number of starts; pitch a certain number of innings; make the All Star team; make the postseason; no more than 15 days on DL; etc. If he nails all the incentives; it also means we got a great season from him, in which case it’s worth the money.
This year's record with Lee pitching vs Vazquez and all the others
would have shown at leasst 15 more wins and 15 less losses, maybe 20. Would that have made a difference? And next year? And next year? And next year? Is it worth it to get an ace to replace Andy and have Hughsie and CC there and still hunt, like this year, for the fourth starter? Or do we want CC, Hughsie, and AJ and still hunt for fourth starter, not to mention a fifth?
by Nine mike charlie on Oct 14, 2010 11:43 AM EDT reply actions
The Table
I’d like to see that table break out the W-L by League and show the W-L of the opposing team in the WS and their rank. By eye-ball it looks like the NL WS winners rank much lower in W-L across the MLB than d othe AL (except for the 2000 Yanks). If by the WC Era one means that good third place teams (this year’s BoSox) don’t get a chance but teams in totally weak divisions (TEX/Minn) do go I agree. Or maybe by the WC Era the fact that the best of 5 first round is a toss-up I agree there as well. But for me W-L is never a compelling stat since some divisions are way tougher then others. This year isa good example- Yanks have the bets offense and play i nthe toughest division the Rangers look pretty close by the same numbers (SLG and OBP) but you would to if you played SEA, OAK and LAA 18 times each and not TOR, BOS and TB.
When was it that the Yankees
had what was considered a solid, dependable, 4 starter rotation without one of them being some sort of question mark like AJ or Vazquez? Not in the last decade.
by Nine mike charlie on Oct 14, 2010 11:45 AM EDT reply actions
I think in many ways your thinking is correct. However I think they will, correctly, pursue Lee despite his cost for the following reasons.
Pettite: No one knows what Andy will do but we do know he is year to year. Paying Lee #1 money guarantees even if he signs a CC contract that the Yankees will have, at worst, a Pettite type left handed pitcher at the end of the contract.
Next Seasons budget: With Vasquez coming off the roster the one year increase in cost will be minimal. A rotation of CC, Hughes, Lee, AJ, Pettitte or one of the kids is very good.
The Kids: Most of the better ones are still some seasons away. Secondly they can be brought in as long men/occasional starters when they do arrive in the majors
Mariano and Jeter: Cashman is attempting to compete for championships while bridging for the future. Doing a good job I might add. I think he might attempt to sign Mo and Jetes to one year for life contracts but if they want longer contracts I expect Cashman will insist on lower annual costs. They are great players. They are not gods and will decline. The flip side is that Cash wants to give them the support to win. In my view the Phillies are the best two teams in baseball in that order. The addition of Oswalt gives Philadelphia the edge. Lee would be the equalizer.
The problem with the first part of your argument
is that wins-loses are meaningless. A pitcher can only win games if the team behind him supports him (see Felix, Grienke, Lee, Lincecum.) A great starting rotaion wins playoff series, even when the team is hitting (see the Phillies and Giants this year.)
As for the rookies, the point is valid, but they are all prospects and does anyone really think any of them will be as good in the next 5 years as Lee? The Yankees are a win now team, we all know that.
Remember, the Yankees were willing to trade Montero, one of the top prospects in baseball, one which some scouts rank as better that Bryce Harper, one for which we are in dire need at that position in the coming years, for 3 months of Lee.
For the reclamation projects, I doubt Cashman wants to risk money after seeing more failures than successes this year.
Cashman will be going after Lee with everything he’s got, the money is not the issue. The Yankees will make it back in merchandise sales alone, let alone on field performance.
Vasquez will be gone and once Pettitte retires and is replaced by a rookie, plus removing Kei Igawa’s contract, plus Posada’s probable retirement after next year, you already have more than enough to pay for Lee.
by Monotonousblob on Oct 14, 2010 11:49 AM EDT reply actions
I think you're wrong in more than one way
First let’s look at your WS data in a different format.
w-l rank 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13
ws wins 3 1 2 2 1 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 1
Median rank for WS winner is 3+. So, the advantage a better team has in the playoffs is small, but it is not zero.
To have the best chance to win you need the best team you can have. All team that make the playoffs are not equal, they are however reasonably competitive, best to worst.
Next, signing free agent starting pitchers is a gamble. However signing established studs is more likely to succeed than signing rehabers or second tier people. Pavano and Burnett were second tier people.
Signing Lee might nor work. But signing Lee is a smart move whether it works or not.
Let me ask another question. What are the Yankee needs this off season?
1, Resign Jeter. Then we’re set for the starting eight.
2. Resign Mo. Then we’re set for the pen. Sign Wood if you can.
3. Resign or replace Pettitte. If Andy retires, Lee seems to me like a must.
4. Replace or upgrade Vazquez.
So, we need one free agent pitcher from outside the organization and Andy. Or we need two starters from outside the organization.
I’ve seen Nova and Joba. Aceves is a questionmark. I do not think we have a starter in the organization I’m willing to have be a rotation member in 2011.
"You don't realize how easy this game is until you get up in that broadcasting booth." Mickey
Sorry about the number formatting
Line the numbers up, You’ll get the idea.
"You don't realize how easy this game is until you get up in that broadcasting booth." Mickey
Counter point:
Just think how pissed the Indians would be!
More practically, Javy is leaving. Andy will have his usual soul searching and AJ…yeah.
Assuming the worse, that leaves CC and Hughes. I like Nova, but let’s not get too excited about him pitching consistently all next year.
If this year has showed us anything, it’s that consistent pitching is hard to find and injuries can derail everything. Why not have the greatest 1-2 pitching combo in baseball and go from there? Money is a factor, but that’s the beauty of being rich…we’ve got it, especially with Javy and nick johnson hitting the road, potentially no Andy on the books and soon Jorge retiring.
The icing is, who can match up to a rotation in the playoffs that starts CC, Lee, Hughes?
by The Champs Are Here on Oct 14, 2010 11:59 AM EDT reply actions
That's another interesting way to look at it.
Would you give up Javy, Nick Johnson, and Kei Igawa for Cliff Lee?
Over those years
Sabathia and Lee would, if healthy, be in the conversation with Johnson/Schilling and Martinez/Schilling as the best pitching tandem on a playoff team in the last 30 years or so.
Nice post. I disagree completely
The Yankees are all about winning the World Series. Winning the World Series is all about making the playoffs
The team with the best pitching in the postseason starting 5+Pen almost always wins. Why did we win last season as opposed to the past 8? We had a phenomenal starting 2 and a decent number 3, lock down closer and very very effective pen. Centaurism did help too.
By signing Lee you make that starting 5 substantially better for a 3 and 7 game series. Short term if Andy stays and you are pitching CC, Andy, Lee in a 3 game series you are probably going to win, not a crap shoot. In a seven game series you throw out CC, Andy, Lee and Hughes you are probably going to win. Those are 4 of the toughest pitchers in baseball to face in a row. This is all assuming AJ is lost forever and becomes a number 5. Cashman was willing to sell Montero for Lee, he can now get him for cash. It is pretty much a done deal. I don’t see why you weren’t against signing Vasquez but are against signing Lee. Will he get paid alot? Sure probably a lot more than Javy, but lets be honest: Game 6 World Series Yankees up 3 games to 2, chance to close the series out, who would you rather have us throw on the mound? Cliff Lee, AJ, Nova, Joba, Beddard or Sheets? Sorry if I had a choice I would go with Lee every single time.
by HappyLuckyGoldenDragonNumber1! on Oct 14, 2010 12:34 PM EDT reply actions
Wasn't Vazquez a trade?
And wasn’t he coming off of a terrific season?
You are correct.
But a terrific season in the NL, in Atlanta.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
Still
we couldn’t realistically expect him to do as poorly as he did this season
Not by a long shot. I expected 200 innings, a 105 ERA+ and a 1.3 WHIP. The WHIP was close (1.398), but everything else was off the charts disaster.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
Nobody could have predicted
such a radical drop off in velocity.
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
by CasanovaWong on Oct 14, 2010 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Very very true
I always thought bringing back Javy to the Bronx was like asking a kid to move back into the house his parents were murdered in. Would always be jittery.
by HappyLuckyGoldenDragonNumber1! on Oct 14, 2010 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
One reason
the Yankees in 1996-2001 won the WS 4 times, and very nearly 5, was the ability to trot out some combination of Cone, Wells, El Duque, Clemens, Mussina, Pettitte, and Key on any given night, all through the postseason. The team had a great chance to win every one of those games.
Why are we assuming Lee will suck in his mid-to-late 30s?
He is a control pitcher, not a power pitcher. Get. Cliff. Lee. There is nothing more to it.
-1
Cliff Lee is good because
1.) He doesn’t walk anybody
2.) He’s a groundball pitcher
3.) He strikes hitters out at an above average clip
Age won’t impact #1, but it sure will impact #2 and #3. As he gets older, he will lose velocity. Velocity will impact his strikeouts (at least slightly) and may impact his reportoire of pitches, impacting his GB/FB rates.
Plus, he could get hurt.
Nobody is saying he’ll suck. We’re just saying it’s foolish to expect this kind of dominance or durability when he’s 37.
Lee has posted control numbers that resembles some guy named greg maddux
actually it’s been better than any year maddux has had his whole career this year. Maddux for the most was a still producing a 5-7 war level til he was 37…so you can’t say its unexpected
Also strangely Lee’s velocity has been on the rise these past 3 years. his velocity right now is 1 mph higher than it was when he won the cy young. Further more Lee is not the ground ball pitcher you think he is. His ground ball rates form the last 3 years: 45.9%, 41%, 42%. What he’s good at is inducing weak contract by placing the ball at the correct part of the zone and using his pitches movements to throw people off balance.
Pettitte has been able to maintain a >40% Gb rate into his late 30's
And he has pretty much the same exact repertoire as Lee. I’d even go so far as to say Lee’s offspeed stuff and control are a tad bit better than Andy’s. I don’t think Cliff’s ethereal production will last forever but he can still be a very, very effective pitcher into his 40’s. Nasty control and nasty offspeed stuff don’t fade with age. He can put his FB through a keyhole and has solid mechanics, I think he’ll age like a fine wine.
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
by CasanovaWong on Oct 14, 2010 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Okay here's the problem
First off minor league pitchers look great, they have good ceilings blah blah blah BUT it doesn’t equate to performance in the big leagues. Many hot minor leaguers come up and fade away. There is no guarantee they succeed, and out of the Killer’s B’s the yankees would be lucky if one of those guys make it to the rotation (mostly likely in 2012) AND they need to have to hit the lottery to have one of those guys even remotely produce what lee will produce in the next 5 years.
Plus the Assumption that the yankees can continue to be a 90 win team is great BUT 90 wins is not enough in the AL east. If you can get a guy who will had that 3 extra wins to the team get him, especially in this division where every win matters more. The Sox are going to be healthy and Beckett’s and Lackey’s xFIP suggests that they will very likely rebound next year which makes the Sox a much healthier team with a good fofense and pitching depth. The yankees right now lack pitching depth, Nova and joba re not going to solve that problem and honestly neither of them look too impressive. Every extra win matters.
Second: You can;t simply look at a series and say well we have a 15% shot at the world series…it honestly doesn’t work like that. While the play off is a crap shoot, it all beings with starting pitching tipping the scale. A rotation of CC and Lee makes it easier for the yankees to win game 1 and 2 in a play offs which not only gives them a decent lead, also takes pressure off the guy pitching behind them. With younger guys you don;t know how the pressure will affect them or even how well they pitch. But with guys like Lee and CC you have more assurance 75% of the time that they will give you a good outing.
Third: The replacement. The list of replacement for lee you gave are easier said than done. First off which young ptichers are available? King felix isn;t going to magically be traded nor is grienke and the list of FA you give is down right horrible TBH. Erik Bedard, Justin Duchscherer, Rich Harden, Ted Lilly, Ben Sheets, or Brandon Webb All with the exception of Lilly have experience arm problems and are rarely healthy. Basically these people have a better chance of being another Pavano than Lee. Lee right now is 6-7 WAR pitcher meaning he;s worth 30 million a year right now. Getting him for 20 million for the next few years willl actually be a discount from considering his production. Even when he gets older it is very unlikely he is going to drop off a cliff.
You can;t simply look at a series and say well we have a 15% shot at the world series…it honestly doesn’t work like that
How does it work then? The Braves assembled the greatest trio of starting pitchers in the history of baseball, and have just one championship to show for it.
Not even the Braves with Maddux, Glavine, and Smoltz entered the postseason with a 50% chance of winning it all.
your right lets just draw world series winners out of a hat next time
yes luck has to do something with it… But better talent = higher probability of winning. Two teams with different talent level don’t have the same expectancy of winning a series/game. That braves team could have been an example of a small sample size. If i have two magic scrolls, only which will work 60% of the time and other will work 30% of the time. if the 30% scrolls works and the 60% scroll fails it doesn;t mean i’ll always have better luck with the 30% scroll. the 60% is more likely to give you better results and just because it didn;t work it work that time it doesn’t make it any less better than the 30% one.
THose braves teams had great pitching
but no offensive support. Look through the playoffs on http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl/player_search.cgi?search=braves Most of the games they lost were low scoring with almost no run support, more than enough 1-0 2-1 losses than there should be.
This is the 1996 WS:
Smoltz, Glavine, and Maddux all had ERAs under 2!
by Monotonousblob on Oct 14, 2010 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Right
They got great pitching AND STILL LOST.
I’m not talking about playing the World Series on paper. I’m simply saying that nobody enters the playoffs with a legitimate 50% chance of winning it all.
no one expects a 50% chance of winning the ws
But in head to head matchup the advantage goes to the team with the better offense and pitching. The yanks already have the best offense, having the best pitching will only bolster their chances of winning a head to head series to a higher probabilty. If with inconsistent pitch we have a 50% of winning a series and with good pitching we have 60%… I’ll take that extra 10% everytime. Since we don’t have a 8 way free for all as a play off format, ever extra advantage the team has matters. In a 8 way fight lee might add only 3% but sine our format is head to head his added win probability is much higher in that sense.
by lololol on Oct 14, 2010 2:15 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I bet if they had the Yankees offense
We would be talking about the Atlanta Dynasty not the Yankees.
by HappyLuckyGoldenDragonNumber1! on Oct 14, 2010 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions
It's a long climb up the prospect ladder, and it's easy to fall.
Remember Eric Duncan?
Gary Sanchez has had 60 ABs in the low A New York Penn League, where he hit .278/.333/.426. At 17 he’s an exciting prospect.
Austin Romine put up a similar line at AA Trenton, where he looked like a MLB caliber defensive catcher.
Romine will not play for the Yankees next season before September, if at all. Sanchez will not see the Bronx until 2013, if he makes it.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
he is to a certain extent
But to expect Romine to get a cliff lee level pitcher or even any remotely decent pitcher is right now unrealistic. For reference the Twins for their best catching prospect got a reliever…The odds of a package of Romine + plus to get a grienke or someone is basically 0.0001%
he might, but not yet
Gary Sanchez is too young and at too low a level to really gauge what he’s going to amount to. If we bring up both Romine and Montero, they’ll still have several years to play before sanchez comes up and this is a good problem to have. To be honest I’m not entirely sure if Montero is the catcher of the future, they’re already questioning his abilities in AA, so who knows what will happen in the mlb. I think they should start putting him at 1st and DH to see how he does. His fielding was the main reason he didnt get a call up
First, Montero was in AAA last year, and second, the most recent news on him is that his defense really isn’t that bad. He’s not going to win any gold gloves, but he will be capable of playing the position
so basically he's just a warm body to stick there
I’m not about to get rid of Romine, if he can be a + catcher. With Posada being here for so long, I’d really like to see a catcher who can actually catch base runners and pick the ball out of the dirt. The fact is, Montero’s abilities were questioned so he can’t be that great at his position, Romine has been rated as a much better fielder and we kind of need that. If we keep both we can have a bat and a glove and that would be fantastic. Then we can worry about Sanchez when the time comes and he’s more relevant
There's a reason Montero is so prized.
No, he’s not just some warm body. That’s ridiculous.
And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Oct 14, 2010 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions
The kid is 20 years old...
The youngest in AAA period.
And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Oct 14, 2010 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Is using the word and symbol for a full stop consecutively considered redundant?
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
Maybe. full stop.
Hello everyone, my name is Curtis Granderson, and I'm a bus-o-holic
A supporter of the MFY.
there's questions about a 20 year old's catching abilities
so that means he can’t be great?
Winning cures all...even stupid
by FreeBradshaw on Oct 14, 2010 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions
There are questions for every prospect
I think Montero will be fine
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions
no this is not what i'm saying
I’m saying that because Montero’s defense is questionable, the idea of Romine being irrelevant is ridiculous.
I think
Montero and Romine will both be important for your organization. Montero, can he play 1B at all?
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
*cough* Teixeira *cough*
Individuals don't win Championships, Teams do.
Chase for 28
Get Off My Mound
Oh right
… I assume Montero can DH
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions
How about my plan:
He catches.
concentrate... concentrate... I've got to concentrate... concentrate... concentrate... Hello?... hello... hello... Echo... echo... echo... Pinch hitting for Pedro Borbon... Manny Mota... Mota... Mota...
What about Romine?
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Montero is going to make Romine irrelevant to the Yankees.
And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Oct 14, 2010 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions
For real?
I always thought Romine was a good prospect?
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions
He's fine, but he's not better than Montero, and isn't going to be.
And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Oct 14, 2010 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions
OK
Then if he means nothing to the organization, why would another team take him? Don’t you think they’d have the leverage?
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions
He doesn't mean much to the Yankees because the Yankees have Montero.
Do other teams have Montero? No. So Romine would be fine for them.
And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Oct 14, 2010 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions
But wouldn't another team have leverage if they knew New York did not want him?
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Romine's a solid defensive catcher
with a decent bat. More like Yadier Molina, but probably not that good behind teh plate.
Teams want that. As long as they don’t have a Jesus Montero (which none do).
Winning cures all...even stupid
by FreeBradshaw on Oct 14, 2010 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions
OK, that makes sense
Geez, I thought he was better than Molina by a little bit. I was thinking, like, Varitek or something. Or Posada.
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Varitek sucks.
but Montero’s the one who’s more like Posada.
Winning cures all...even stupid
by FreeBradshaw on Oct 14, 2010 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions
He didn't before
the last two seasons
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions
There
concentrate... concentrate... I've got to concentrate... concentrate... concentrate... Hello?... hello... hello... Echo... echo... echo... Pinch hitting for Pedro Borbon... Manny Mota... Mota... Mota...
Oops
There’s a reason Mauer got as big a contract as he did. Not just because he’s good, good hitting/great defensive catcher don’t grown on trees.
concentrate... concentrate... I've got to concentrate... concentrate... concentrate... Hello?... hello... hello... Echo... echo... echo... Pinch hitting for Pedro Borbon... Manny Mota... Mota... Mota...
Teams need catchers.
Romine is a good catcher, he just won’t be the YANKEE CATCHER. I don’t see how “we have this guy we don’t need cause we have someone else, but he’s good so you take him” gives other teams leverage.
And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Oct 14, 2010 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Our 2nd best catching prospect is better than the #1 catchers most teams have in their system, but the Yankees lose leverage if they try to shop Romine?
hmmmm……….
Photoshop Gallery: http://img704.imageshack.us/g/ggbg.jpg/
by Jedi Master A-Rod on Oct 14, 2010 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions
What about him?
If Baby Jesus lives up to his potential, I don’t care what he does.
concentrate... concentrate... I've got to concentrate... concentrate... concentrate... Hello?... hello... hello... Echo... echo... echo... Pinch hitting for Pedro Borbon... Manny Mota... Mota... Mota...
this.
I hope they trade Romine before the rest of MLB realizes he can’t hit. THo I’m sure they’ve figure that already…
Winning cures all...even stupid
by FreeBradshaw on Oct 14, 2010 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Romine can't hit?
When did that happen?
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions
this year.
stay hydrated
Winning cures all...even stupid
by FreeBradshaw on Oct 14, 2010 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I read somewhere that Romine was the better "true" hitter
Montero the much better power hitter obviously
was this on the back of a bathroom stall?
Romine’s not even close to anything Romine does at the plate.
Winning cures all...even stupid
by FreeBradshaw on Oct 14, 2010 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions
*Montero.
Average, power…everything.
Winning cures all...even stupid
by FreeBradshaw on Oct 14, 2010 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Romine’s not even close to anything Romine does at the plate
lol
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions
You read wrong
Montero isn’t just a guy with power, he has excellent pitch recognition, and the ability to spray the ball to all fields. He’s the full package offensively, one of the best hitting prospects since Miguel Cabrera
Mark. Teixeira.
And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Oct 14, 2010 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Some scrub who doesn't know how to scoop.
And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Oct 14, 2010 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions
that means he's useless
Hello everyone, my name is Curtis Granderson, and I'm a bus-o-holic
A supporter of the MFY.
Douche.
concentrate... concentrate... I've got to concentrate... concentrate... concentrate... Hello?... hello... hello... Echo... echo... echo... Pinch hitting for Pedro Borbon... Manny Mota... Mota... Mota...
oh! now i know!
Hello everyone, my name is Curtis Granderson, and I'm a bus-o-holic
A supporter of the MFY.
and......
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by Jedi Master A-Rod on Oct 14, 2010 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions
and the other half?
Hello everyone, my name is Curtis Granderson, and I'm a bus-o-holic
A supporter of the MFY.
The other 2 quarters actually
Photoshop Gallery: http://img704.imageshack.us/g/ggbg.jpg/
by Jedi Master A-Rod on Oct 14, 2010 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions
oooooh...lasers
Hello everyone, my name is Curtis Granderson, and I'm a bus-o-holic
A supporter of the MFY.
Blue lasers!
concentrate... concentrate... I've got to concentrate... concentrate... concentrate... Hello?... hello... hello... Echo... echo... echo... Pinch hitting for Pedro Borbon... Manny Mota... Mota... Mota...
We'll tell you when you're older.
And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Oct 14, 2010 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions
what kind of sick act is a "red laser"
and I’m assuming reversing the roles is “blue”?
Hello everyone, my name is Curtis Granderson, and I'm a bus-o-holic
A supporter of the MFY.
The “red laser” is my go to move. Reminds me of this one time in college…..
On second thought, never mind. Can’t reveal the secret.
Photoshop Gallery: http://img704.imageshack.us/g/ggbg.jpg/
by Jedi Master A-Rod on Oct 14, 2010 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions
but I must know!
Hello everyone, my name is Curtis Granderson, and I'm a bus-o-holic
A supporter of the MFY.
Two words.
Mark Teixeira.
There's no half-singing in the shower, you're either a rock star or an opera diva.
Derek Jeter
Winning cures all...even stupid
by FreeBradshaw on Oct 14, 2010 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions
even with Tex
I don’t think making him a C/DH/1B would hurt. He can’t be any worse than Giambi right?
Old guys are gonna need to spend a lot more days at DH going forward.
Tex will play 1st base. Not having Montero + his bat in the lineup every day would be silly.
And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Oct 14, 2010 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions
His defense is basically at posada’s level. Posada level defense from a catcher hitting 40 home runs? I’ll take that
Yes but i'd also like someone to offset his fielding
if they use a Romine C, Montero C/DH combo, both can be used, until Sanchez actually joins the conversation
Posada, Jorge.
You don’t need anyone to offset anything.
Having a catcher like that is a weapon, not a liability.
Winning cures all...even stupid
by FreeBradshaw on Oct 14, 2010 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Posada's defense is not a liability?
I would actually love someone who could throw out a damn runner once in awhile
now..sure it is.
Montero ain’t in his late 30’s.
Who gives a crap about throwing the runner out? Yea..its nice, and I bet Montero will do that (mainly since he was doing that before he got hurt this year)
Posada was and is a weapon. Always was. He’s a big reason why the Yankees lineup is one to be wreakond with, since they don’t have POS like Cervelli hitting even tho he’s a good defender.
Winning cures all...even stupid
by FreeBradshaw on Oct 14, 2010 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed. Yes, an offensive catcher like posada is a liability on defense, but his offense more than makes up for it. Typically, if a player is going to make a living as a great defensive player, he has to be at least average offensively, or he will be less valuable than a player who is great offensively and terrible defensively. For catchers, finding one who is even average offensively is incredibly difficult. Finding one who is a potential superstar will set your team up for a long time
Agreed. Yes, an offensive catcher like posada is a liability on defense, but his offense more than makes up for it. Typically, if a player is going to make a living as a great defensive player, he has to be at least average offensively, or he will be less valuable than a player who is great offensively and terrible defensively. For catchers, finding one who is even average offensively is incredibly difficult. Finding one who is a potential superstar will set your team up for a long time
but he's right
though every team has an equal chance of winning the world series, some teams are noticeably better than others and that amount to something. Did anyone see the Reds beating the Phillies this year? even though they had an equal chance to win, they needed a lot to go right to win that series. Just barely getting into the playoffs (without Lee) does not necessarily give you an equal chance to win
an idea that i didnt see...
Austin Romine and package for zack greinkr. Kansas city has said he could be availible for trade talks
by Meatface on Oct 14, 2010 1:38 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
For Grienke your talking multiple top prospects
he’s cheap for a few years still, young, and already a Cy Young winner. His only issue is his shyness under the spotlight.
by Monotonousblob on Oct 14, 2010 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Greinke has anxiety problems playing in friggin Kansas City.
Imagine being in NYC. As great a pitcher as he is I don’t want him anywhere near a NYY mound. It wouldcost pretty much our entire farm system and is by no means a sure bet. They wanted Montero for Soria, what are thye gonna as for for Greinke?
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
by CasanovaWong on Oct 14, 2010 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions
*Ask for Greinke.
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
by CasanovaWong on Oct 14, 2010 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Greinke's anxiety stems from his wonderment of whether or not his team can score a run.
"you're the Rod Thorn in my Chris Bosh side."
by Chris Child's Fist on Oct 15, 2010 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd rather take those same prospects
and see what the Marlins want for Josh Johnson.
Actually, I’d rather keep the prospects.
Winning cures all...even stupid
by FreeBradshaw on Oct 14, 2010 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Luckily you're not the GM
by HappyLuckyGoldenDragonNumber1! on Oct 14, 2010 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
yea
Phil Hughes sucks. What a bad GM I’d be.
Winning cures all...even stupid
by FreeBradshaw on Oct 14, 2010 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
I was thinking Josh Johnson might be a fit there
But you would have to give up a ton
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Grienke will cost the yankees an arm and a leg
plus he’s flyball pitcher who doesn’t like to pitch in NY. if we made that offer to kansas they’d laugh themselves to death
Greinke would not be worth what the Royals would want for him
plus other than one year he has not been all that great
THis post is completely silly
The reasons to get Lee are simple.
1. The Yankees CAN afford it.
2. As we see now, the Yankees would rather have Lee than face him 2-3 in a playoff/World Series.
3. It’s not about the regular season. The Yanks will always have a good chance to win the division or make the playoffs, with or without Lee. But his extra 5-10 wins makes that an almost certainty.
4. Now we have to ride CC. Imagine if we had Lee too. There’s no uncertainty about the playoff pitching now.
5. The other pitchers you mention are liabilities. Have you not followed the Yankee teams from 2002-2008? All those washed up, old, broken down pitchers we overpaid for? Do you really want to go down that path again? Let’s get another Vasquez in here, the hell with Lee!
6. Lee should be as good as Pettitte is right now, and he’s old.
We are just STUPID if we let another team get him. Lee pays for himself.
what starting pitcher are you thinking of?
are you so sure that some National League team is just waiting to trade away a young pitcher for an Austin Romine-lead package?
Teams are desperate for catching.
last year the Reds gave us fan favorite Jerry Hairston for a mediocre single A catcher, Chase Weems. And Weems was literally 10th or 11th on our ML C depth chart. Not saying Romine will net us Josh Johnson but he could very well be more valuable to some teams moeso than others.
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
by CasanovaWong on Oct 14, 2010 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Love the idea of going after Brandon Webb
if he’s healthy…which is why he’s not gonna be as sought after as Lee, he’s one of the best in baseball. Love to get him as a “low risk high reward” type of deal.
There’s also Hiroki Kuroda as a potential FA. Little old but can be a horse at times. Be a nice stop gap option if the pups aren’t ready (which they probably aren’t).
Its probably all moot. The Yanks will go after Lee. It will probably look great for 2011. After that…who knows. Back injury and age do not a fine wine make. More like a fermenting cesspool.
Winning cures all...even stupid
once again his back injury is not recurring
none of his injuries are. I’llt ake that over a guy who hasn’t pitched in two years coming off arm problems….hell we’ll take back Chien Ming Wang if we wanted that
recurring means every year.
which it has.
Winning cures all...even stupid
by FreeBradshaw on Oct 14, 2010 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions
No it hasn't
Look at his injury history: groin in 2007, abodmen earlier this year and back in august. Last time I check your groin and abs aren’t park of your back. Arm problems are much bigger concerns for pitchers anyways.
by lololol on Oct 14, 2010 2:19 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Webb was reportedly topping out at 85 @ Astros Instructs
That doesn’t bode well.
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
by CasanovaWong on Oct 14, 2010 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions
if he was pitching in the playoffs this year..no, it doesn't.
Winning cures all...even stupid
by FreeBradshaw on Oct 14, 2010 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah
Hiroki Kuroda, age 35. How is his age not an issue?
Haven’t we learned from our mistakes? The Yanks haven’t signed a good pitcher other than CC since the early 2000’s. Lee is a slam dunk.
35
not 39.
He was pitching good the whole year. Age ain’t an issue. Unless you’re talking about signing him to a 5 year deal. Which I ain’t.
Winning cures all...even stupid
by FreeBradshaw on Oct 14, 2010 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions
But signing a 32 year old to a 5 year deal is an issue?
by HappyLuckyGoldenDragonNumber1! on Oct 14, 2010 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions
35 to one year deal
32 to 5 year deal (if it is gonna be a 5 year deal..which its not gonna be).
Math…not your strong suit.
Winning cures all...even stupid
by FreeBradshaw on Oct 14, 2010 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Right
Which means you would rather have a pitcher who starts his contract 3 years older for 1 season as opposed to a superior pitcher who will be 35 more than halfway through his contract.
Logic… not your strong suit.
by HappyLuckyGoldenDragonNumber1! on Oct 14, 2010 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions
1 year deal vs. 5 year deal...
yup. You got puff.
Winning cures all...even stupid
by FreeBradshaw on Oct 14, 2010 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions
5 year deal where 3rd year he will be as old as Kuroda is right now?
Yeah.. I will take 32 year old version of Lee verses 27 year old version of Kuroda let alone 35 year old Kuroda. Even if Lee blows up in 4 seasons at the tired old age of 36 (you know the same age Kuroda will be next season), who cares? The Yankees can eat 1 year of a big contract. Look at what the ate for Kei Igawa, the most valuable player in AAA.
by HappyLuckyGoldenDragonNumber1! on Oct 14, 2010 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions
last I checked
Lee is 32. 5 year contract would bring him to 37.
I think we did pretty well with an old, injury risk guy named Pettitte, who is 38 and having one of his best seasons ever.
Do you believe that is the exception or the rule?
And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Oct 14, 2010 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions
For lefties with control?
That’s more like the trend. Plenty of control lefties has shown the ability to have out pitch their age.
by lololol on Oct 14, 2010 2:20 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I always believed
Every mph you pitch over 90mph consistently shortens your career. Why do you think guys like CC rarely top out at mid high 90s anymore? They CAN but they understand the biomechanical strains it creates. Lee is someone whose delivery and velocity lend to a longer shelf life. The logic about not signing Lee is misguided. He simply gives you a substantially better chance to go deep into the post season WITHOUT giving up any prospects. I am much happier to possibly have Lee AND Montero next season.
by HappyLuckyGoldenDragonNumber1! on Oct 14, 2010 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions
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by Jedi Master A-Rod on Oct 14, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
The difference between the regular season and the playoffs is this:
Regular season: 2 horses and 3 cadavers= wild card, or 90 or so wins
Playoffs : 2 horses plus 3 cadavers = World Series win.
Just ask the 2001 DBacks, 2003 Marlins, 2007 RedSox, etc…
That would be a reason to get another horse besides Sabathia, even if he’s your 5th starter by the end of the contract. Nova, Noesi, Betances, etc. are the replacments for Pettitte, Burnett, and Vazquez, if we’re lucky.
by designatedquitter on Oct 14, 2010 2:08 PM EDT reply actions
I think it is foolish to avoid signing Cliff Lee.
The Yankees are in the business of winning. They don’t hope to get to the playoffs like every other team; they hope to win another World Series Title. It is often said that great pitching beats great hitting and that a team needs a good starting rotation to win in the playoffs. I think that statement holds true and while the Yankees would make the playoffs with or without Cliff Lee, they should have a stronger team and better chance of winning the World Series with him in the fold.
Now, every contract has risks associated with it and the more money it is worth, the higher said risks become. However, of all the teams in baseball that can afford to risk money, it is the Yankees. It makes no sense to sit on their money, they get nothing (on the field) by not using it. Cheaper alternatives than Lee will likely not provide the same production in the postseason, based on career statistics and plain eyesight.
I do not want a Ted Lilly, Jorge De la Rosa, or Hiroki Kuroda, any of whom could explode on the mound. I would rather have a Cliff Lee who has been vastly superior. He has the same chance of becoming a train wreck as the rest of them, but he has a much higher upside. This scenario is exactly like the rotation dilemma of this year, namely one A.J. Burnett. He has been horrid this season, but I would still rather have him on the mound hoping for excellence, rather than throwing the three headed Sergio Gaudosley. Their peak is AJ’s mediocrity with the same downside.
The Yankees are the exception to the rule of free agents and should not start to play by mere mortals’ rules. We, as fans, expect and want to win every year. If you don’t want the Yankees to win and would be content to see them merely make the playoffs, or even worse, miss the playoffs, then I don’t understand why you watch the game or come to a hardcore baseball blog. The Yankee organization want to provide championships to their fans and players. The best way to do so, over the next many years, is to spend money.
Not being over the moon about having Cliff Lee doesn't translate into not wanting to win...
And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Oct 14, 2010 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions
this.
And actually, Lee doesn’t have the same chance at becoming a train wreck as the rest of them. Lee has already proved he is nearly unbeatable in the post season, a focused competitor, and he’s had Cy Young stuff while getting traded around from AL to NL and back.
AJ’s mental and mechanical lapses were well known before we took a chance on him. Lee suffers from none of these issues.
I can’t believe there’s even a conversation about NOT signing him. Would you refuse Halladay too?
If Andy can pitch well into his late-30’s then so can Cliff Lee. They both are similar pitchers.
Section 203 Row 15 Seat 1
Andy and Cliff Lee are both left handed and throw around 90 so they are going to have similar career arcs? How on Earth is that anything that even comes close to constituting proof?
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Yeah, that was not a smart statement
To me lee seems more like a power pitcher and Pettitte a little more finese with that cutter.
Not simaler really at all.
And as I do think Lee would not be a nessecity for you, but if you can, why not? Your’e the Yankees, its not like you cannot afford it.
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Power pitcher?
The guy avgs 91 mph….Lee is far more finesse than Andy at this age.
by lololol on Oct 14, 2010 3:07 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Lee seems to get more strikeouts
is that not the definition of a power pitcher?
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions
No
He’s not in the top when it comes to strikeouts, but his excellent control and ability to get ahead in the count leads to lots of K’s.
A power pitcher is one that relies on a high-mph fastball to “blow people away”. Lee doesn’t do that. Chapman is a power pitcher.
Oh, ok
thanks for clearing that up.
Maybe i should stop listening to Buck Martinez :P
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Hughes is called a power pitcher
he uses his 91mph fastball and tries to blow it by people..and it works.
LEe does the same thing. Lee can average whatever the hell he wants, he’s a power pitcher with excellent command.
The guy uses his fastball a ton and hitters can’t hit it.
Winning cures all...even stupid
by FreeBradshaw on Oct 14, 2010 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Thank you
That’s all I really meant
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions
not now
when he pitches he does.
Winning cures all...even stupid
by FreeBradshaw on Oct 14, 2010 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Lol what?
Hughes avg velocity this year is 92.6 (93) and at it’s highest he touches 96. Lee this year is at 91 and his highest is 94…javy would tell u 2 mph is a big difference
by lololol on Oct 14, 2010 4:08 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
average means compilation of numbers then divide by the amount of numbers you get
So if he hits 96, to average 93, that means he’s at 91 too.
You’re out of your element Donnie. I don’t give a crap what Hughes fastball average is.
I see him hit 91 and blow it by hitters. THAT…is all.
Winning cures all...even stupid
by FreeBradshaw on Oct 14, 2010 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Same as Cliff Lee...
In my determination he is a power pitcher.
If Hughes is, Lee certaintly is.
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Yea but doing it once is different from doing it consistently. Javy can blow ppl away with 88 so is he a power pitcher? Hughes usually lives in 92 – 94 when he pitches and can get away with mistakes. Just bc you see him blow a guy once or twice at 91 doesn’t mean he can live on that. Lee is consustenlt at that level and if he misses his spots he will get hit…see hid august when his fastball command was off. Also lee leads the league in getting strikes looking which is different from a swing and miss pitcher like Hughes or even more so a king Felix. Would you call halladay a power pitcher or a control pitcher.
by lololol on Oct 14, 2010 4:25 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
more then once or twice bub.
Winning cures all...even stupid
by FreeBradshaw on Oct 14, 2010 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Sure but He never does it consistently nor does his usual velocity that low.
by lololol on Oct 14, 2010 4:33 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
watch Hughes this series.
you’ll be surprised I guess….
Winning cures all...even stupid
by FreeBradshaw on Oct 14, 2010 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Watched him all season
I don’t ever remember him throwing just 91. He hits that once in a while but never til the point where it is the norm
by lololol on Oct 14, 2010 4:40 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
91
92, 93..yup.
Winning cures all...even stupid
by FreeBradshaw on Oct 14, 2010 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions
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by Jedi Master A-Rod on Oct 14, 2010 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Can Halladay be both?
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions
what does that even mean?
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions
“Being the Yankees” doesn’t mean you can just spend infinitely and recklessly on whoever catches your eye.
We already have a huge amount of money tied up over a long amount of years to aging players, and there’s no reason to do even more of that when there isn’t a definite need.
There isn’t a definite need.
Questions or thoughts? Email me at duggan2423(at)gmail(dot)com
I think there is a need there
You have Sabathia, Burnett is just bad, Vazquez is gone…. You have Hughes, Pettitte is retiring… So I count two reliable pitchers.
Good luck.
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh, well now that I know that Burnett is “just bad” and that Pettitte is definitely retiring, that changes everything. Thank you, again, for your facts.
I will reiterate what I said in the article:
Next year, the Yankees can start CC, AJ, Hughes, Andy (if he comes back), Joba, and Nova.
They also have plenty of trade pieces and there are much cheaper free agents that can be signed to short deals. There is absolutely not a need to sign Lee, especially when already fielding a playoff caliber team.
Questions or thoughts? Email me at duggan2423(at)gmail(dot)com
I agree with possibly trading for somebody
but I don’t like having so many question marks in the rotation. I expect AJ to turn it around, but I think he’s more of a number 3 than a number 2. Hughes is solid, but Andy may not come back and is an injury risk, and I don’t really trust Nova in a rotation with that many question marks.
What they really need is another sure thing. If they can get that out of a trade for Romine, great. Otherwise I want Cliff Lee.
I hate all Boston sports teams
Lee > Nova
Lee > Joba
Lee > giving up more prospects
Lee > Erik Bedard
This kind of sounds like a personal reason, I get that. Usually I’m the guy who says that we don’t need the #1 free agent every year, but this time I really think we need him. We can get by without him, but we kind of need him, especially if andy retires (which is a strong possibility).
The Yankees field the best team possible and there’s no way Ivan “from the stretch” Nova will get a spot over Lee. If there was a prospect who looked to be electric, then you could make an argument. Our best prospect are still 2-3 years away and we can deal with that then. In the mean time we have the ability to get one of the top 5 pitchers in the game. To skip on Lee and give Nova a spot is irresponsible to the team you’re trying to create. We’re not the Kansas City Royals, we’re the Yankees.
I forgot Nova
And I read Pettitte was retirng somewhere…. Is he not? I thought he was, sorry.
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh yes that makes sense
Since you looked in your crystalball of facts and proved that the Yankees can make the play offs and win with one very good pitcher and a bunch of question marks. Despite nothing pointing to nova, joba and even aj being consistent enough to get us through a season and into a post season. He’ll we might as well replace our whole rotation with minor leaguers since this team is guarnteed a 90 win season and winning in the postseason is like guessing a number from 1-8….
by lololol on Oct 14, 2010 4:19 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Hughes is not a question mark.
Winning cures all...even stupid
by FreeBradshaw on Oct 14, 2010 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Free I'm thinking Yankees in 5.
We take 1 and 2
lose 3
win 4 and 5
Individuals don't win Championships, Teams do.
Chase for 28
Get Off My Mound
awesome
Winning cures all...even stupid
by FreeBradshaw on Oct 14, 2010 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions
how about they don't lose game 3?
Winning cures all...even stupid
by FreeBradshaw on Oct 14, 2010 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions
UnBeLEEvable
we can’t. Four letter network says Lee is completlee unbeatable.
Individuals don't win Championships, Teams do.
Chase for 28
Get Off My Mound
I say Yankees in 6-7
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions
The drool around here is getting thick.
And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Oct 14, 2010 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions
WWJD
Predictions?
I see games 1 and 2 being not easy wins, but very winnable. Lewis vs. Hughes and Hunter vs. Burnett should be a win.
Individuals don't win Championships, Teams do.
Chase for 28
Get Off My Mound
I have no idea.
Game 1 and 2 are very winnable and 3 and 4 are toss ups.
And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Oct 14, 2010 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Who knows what the innings will do to him
See Cole hamels from last year when in 2008 the phillies pushed him well over his previous high in innings.
by lololol on Oct 14, 2010 4:27 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Well lets see
They have almost identical repatroires. Cutter, FB, Curve. They both top out at about 91. Both rely on location, deception. Good enough?
Section 203 Row 15 Seat 1
Lee is not a power pitcher
He wins based on pinpoint control.
That certaintly helps
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree with you on a couple of points
Firstly, I agree 100 percent about giving Joba Chamberlain a full season as a starting pitcher. He needs that opportunity. I think that they did him a very big disservice this season by putting Hughes into the rotation. This was supposed to be Joba’s first full season as a starter, and the first look at what he could do if he was let loose to pitch with no limits. I’m not complaining with the way Hughes has pitched, but merely that Joba was done a disservice. Hopefully next year Joba gets plugged into the 5 spot and both Hughes and Joba have the ability to go out and pitch with no limits next year.
The other thing you brought up that I wouldn’t be opposed with at all, but in fact sort of agree with, is packaging a deal around Austin Romine. I’m going to be honest here, I NEVER thought about that. If the Yankees can get a solid number two starter by packaging a deal around Romine I would be all for that. The pitcher the Yankees get however would have to be firstly and most importantly, YOUNG. I don’t want the Yankees trading Romine for somebody who is going to be of no use to the Yankees in 3 years. I’d like someone in their low thirties at the absolute highest. I’m not exactly sure of the names I would go after but I agree with the principle.
However, when you put all this into perspective, I still would go after Cliff Lee. You make an excellent case against going after a big time position player because the Yankees don’t gain much. But going after a big time starter is completely different. Cliff Lee and CC Sabathia could anchor the Yankees rotation for years. Mentor young pitchers and make guys like Hughes and Joba better. Burnett may be better because he doesn’t have as much pressure not being the number 2, and have two aces that can help him out. You can’t tell me that you don’t find a rotation of Sabathia, Lee, Burnett, Hughes, and Chamberlain attractive, and a rotation that deep would allow Joba to be able to develop, because the Yanks can take what they get from him with a top four like that.
All in all you make great points, and I agree with a few of them. But unless the Yankees can get the perfect package involving Romine for the right pitcher, I would still sign Cliff Lee.
I hate all Boston sports teams
That would be an attractive rotation
does anyone think the phillies fans got upset when they got Halladay AND Oswalt? I know phillie fans and they were ecstatic. If they can have Halladay, Oswalt and Hamels on the same team, I think we can have CC, Lee and Hughes. (and we don’t even have to gut our farm system to do it!) I don’t even know who the Phillies have at #4 or #5 anymore, but AJ and maybe Joba/Pettitte would be outstandingly better. This rotation has me salivating
For whatever it's worth, here are your ALCS umpires:
Gerry Davis, Brian Gorman, Angel Hernandez, Fieldin Culbreth, Jim Reynolds and Tony Randazz.
One name here frustrates me. Any guesses which?
And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Oct 14, 2010 3:31 PM EDT reply actions
We have a winner!
And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Oct 14, 2010 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I don't understand this at all.
It’s offensive.
And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Oct 14, 2010 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions
I understand what you're saying but...
The Yankees will pursue him, and I’ll be all for it. One because its not my money. Two we can. Three it will assure at least one more World Series Title.
Long term? Well Lee isn’t a power pitcher so I don’t think his arm really will be worn out like a few other pitchers right now. Plus I think Sabathia and Lee will be the scariest 1-2 punch in a 5-7 game series.
Individuals don't win Championships, Teams do.
Chase for 28
Get Off My Mound
He doesn't assure anything.
He assured the Phillies nothing. He might help the cause, but he doesn’t assure anything.
And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Oct 14, 2010 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Lee and Hamels or Lee and CC?
Lee and CC sounds better. You’re right nothing is assured though.
Individuals don't win Championships, Teams do.
Chase for 28
Get Off My Mound
We're cloning lee to get max benefit from his future contract
by lololol on Oct 14, 2010 4:29 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Agree with the Post
The yankees every year are in the hunt and have some young arms that can start the season. Or we can get a lower price FA. Every single year Between July and August a top flight pitcher gets traded to a playoff run team. The yankees could have traded for Oswalt this year if they wanted. CC 3 years ago, Lee two years in a row. Oswalt this year. Being patient will pay off.
he's going to become a nun
Hello everyone, my name is Curtis Granderson, and I'm a bus-o-holic
A supporter of the MFY.
All this back and forth is a moot point.
Cashman is going to pursue Lee regardless of how we feel about it.
I don't know what to do!! My whole brain is crying!
sign him then DFA him
Hello everyone, my name is Curtis Granderson, and I'm a bus-o-holic
A supporter of the MFY.
Then re-sign him for three times the original contract and trade him for Jeremy Giambi
Hello everyone, my name is Curtis Granderson, and I'm a bus-o-holic
A supporter of the MFY.
is that not the greatest trade of all time?
Hello everyone, my name is Curtis Granderson, and I'm a bus-o-holic
A supporter of the MFY.
Then trade him for the Oswald
concentrate... concentrate... I've got to concentrate... concentrate... concentrate... Hello?... hello... hello... Echo... echo... echo... Pinch hitting for Pedro Borbon... Manny Mota... Mota... Mota...
Jeremy Giambi doesn't have 8 arms.
concentrate... concentrate... I've got to concentrate... concentrate... concentrate... Hello?... hello... hello... Echo... echo... echo... Pinch hitting for Pedro Borbon... Manny Mota... Mota... Mota...
more incentive for him to beat the Yankees
and knock them out of the playoffs. Panicing Steinbrenner/Cashman will sign every big name FA out there. PRobably give Lee $40million a year
Winning cures all...even stupid
by FreeBradshaw on Oct 14, 2010 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions
At the beginning of the year almost everyone thought we would need one of Crawford or Werth
Now I highly doubt either ends up a Yankee unless Swisher becomes a full -time DH, which we don’t need. That saves almost the cost of Lee right there. However, we could be saying the same thing in another year about some rookie pitcher, but that’s even more of a gamble.
I’m just curious, what were your thoughts before they signed A.J. Burnett on the prospect of signing him?
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Big Yankees and Rangers fan!
I thought we should start CC every game
Hello everyone, my name is Curtis Granderson, and I'm a bus-o-holic
A supporter of the MFY.
…
Writer for Pinstripe Alley, MLB Daily Dish,
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Big Yankees and Rangers fan!
you told me you were gonna make your signature "Edgware for President!"
Hello everyone, my name is Curtis Granderson, and I'm a bus-o-holic
A supporter of the MFY.
I thought he would help stabalize the rotation,
which he did in 2009. This year, its between the ears. I am confident he will iron it out this offseason and rebound next year
Section 203 Row 15 Seat 1
So you were pro-signing A.J., correct?
Writer for Pinstripe Alley, MLB Daily Dish,
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Big Yankees and Rangers fan!
Are you pro-signing Lee?
Writer for Pinstripe Alley, MLB Daily Dish,
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Big Yankees and Rangers fan!
I was hoping you did
because he is bad
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm being honest
He asked a question, so I have to answer honestly.
His 2009 season surprised me.
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Yep
did you see my show today?
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions
every weekday
with one sport topic a day. Today’s is basketball.
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Football
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions
das internet tacos
Hello everyone, my name is Curtis Granderson, and I'm a bus-o-holic
A supporter of the MFY.
the internet sport show.
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Very original.
Individuals don't win Championships, Teams do.
Chase for 28
"Boos are compliments" - Alex Rodriguez
Get Off My Mound
All I could come up with
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Remember what Barndon said about spam?
And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Oct 14, 2010 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions
I know...
But if people have an interest, is it wrong?
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions
When it's against the guidelines...yes.
Not everyone wants to hear about it every day.
And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Oct 14, 2010 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Fine
from now on only when someone asks about it, is that ok?
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions
OK then
I will just ignore anyone who brings it up.
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions
All right
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Stop spamming BBS.
Writer for Pinstripe Alley, MLB Daily Dish,
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Big Yankees and Rangers fan!
Barndon
You brought up I should ask around for new names. You have any?
Individuals don't win Championships, Teams do.
Chase for 28
"Boos are compliments" - Alex Rodriguez
Get Off My Mound
“Barndon Blog”
Writer for Pinstripe Alley, MLB Daily Dish,
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Big Yankees and Rangers fan!
pfft lol
Individuals don't win Championships, Teams do.
Chase for 28
"Boos are compliments" - Alex Rodriguez
Get Off My Mound
I thought that was a good signing on paper
I now relize he was a product of the AL West
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions
as opposed to a signing on lettuce?
Hello everyone, my name is Curtis Granderson, and I'm a bus-o-holic
A supporter of the MFY.
someones cranky today
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions
realize*
Writer for Pinstripe Alley, MLB Daily Dish,
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Big Yankees and Rangers fan!
I was gonna say "realise is perfectly acceptable"
nevermind
Hello everyone, my name is Curtis Granderson, and I'm a bus-o-holic
A supporter of the MFY.
did it surprised you when AJ was dominating the Red Sox during his Blue Jays career
the hell is surprising about it?
What’s surprising is how this guy fell off.
Winning cures all...even stupid
by FreeBradshaw on Oct 14, 2010 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions
and what'll be even more surprising
is if he doesn’t turn it around next year. I fully expect him to get back to normal and hopefully even better next year.
I hate all Boston sports teams
if burnett pitches well in game 4 i could care less about his mediocre august
Hello everyone, my name is Curtis Granderson, and I'm a bus-o-holic
A supporter of the MFY.
Sigh.
And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Oct 14, 2010 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions
What are you sighing at?
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions
how idiotic your "logic" is.
Winning cures all...even stupid
by FreeBradshaw on Oct 14, 2010 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions
whatev
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Oct 14, 2010 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions
There are two benefits to Lee,
It makes the Yankees a whole lot stronger,
and,
It keeps him out of the hands of the Red Sox, Angels, Rangers, Phillies, ect.
The latter is the most important
Section 203 Row 15 Seat 1
sign everyone
Hello everyone, my name is Curtis Granderson, and I'm a bus-o-holic
A supporter of the MFY.
Everyone in baseball.
Can’t let those pesky Sox get them.
And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Oct 14, 2010 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions
this idea?
http://www.theonion.com/articles/yankees-ensure-2003-pennant-by-signing-every-playe,32/
Hello everyone, my name is Curtis Granderson, and I'm a bus-o-holic
A supporter of the MFY.
Exactly.
And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Oct 14, 2010 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions
why do you think we got involved with Teixiera?
there goes your petty humor
Section 203 Row 15 Seat 1
Doesn't make it less ridiculous.
And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Oct 14, 2010 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Signing him out of TEH HORROR of another team having him? Yes.
And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Oct 14, 2010 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions
http://www.overthemonster.com/2008/12/18/697116/espn-red-sox-close-to-sign
Section 203 Row 15 Seat 1
Um, yeah, I remember.
It’s still ridiculous.
And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Oct 14, 2010 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions
No one said that.
I said signing someone JUST BECAUSE another team will get them if you don’t is ridiculous. It’s not any kind of validation in my opinion.
And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Oct 14, 2010 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions
You said that was the more important factor of the two you listed.
And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Oct 14, 2010 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions
if the only reason they wanted him was so he didn't wear BOSTON across his chest
then hell yes, it was ridiculous.
if they actually wanted Tex…then no, it was fine.
Hello everyone, my name is Curtis Granderson, and I'm a bus-o-holic
A supporter of the MFY.
I listed TWO reasons
It would be rediculous to sign say, Adam Dunn to ride pine so the Sox don’t get him
Section 203 Row 15 Seat 1
you said this one is more important
Hello everyone, my name is Curtis Granderson, and I'm a bus-o-holic
A supporter of the MFY.
We have a solid rotation.
If say, the Phils signed him…. That would give them the ungodly rotation of Doc, Lee, Oswalt, Hamels
Section 203 Row 15 Seat 1
It keeps him out of the hands of the Red Sox, Angels, Rangers, Phillies, ect.
The latter is the most important
I’d like to the think the Yankees have more BALLS then that. Who the hell cares who the other teams have?
Winning cures all...even stupid
by FreeBradshaw on Oct 14, 2010 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions
but its a panzy, scared, coward way of thinking
You get Lee cuz he’s a good pitcher and it helps your team.
You don’t get him to make your D*&k bigger.
Winning cures all...even stupid
by FreeBradshaw on Oct 14, 2010 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Barndon said to ask around for a new blog name.
Its GET OFF MY MOUND right now, but I need it to fit better. So any suggestions?
Individuals don't win Championships, Teams do.
Chase for 28
"Boos are compliments" - Alex Rodriguez
Get Off My Mound
Go Balls Deep.
Winning cures all...even stupid
by FreeBradshaw on Oct 14, 2010 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I like it.
Individuals don't win Championships, Teams do.
Chase for 28
"Boos are compliments" - Alex Rodriguez
Get Off My Mound
How about Ardo
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions
that's not your word, what gives you the right to say it?
Hello everyone, my name is Curtis Granderson, and I'm a bus-o-holic
A supporter of the MFY.
What are you talking about dude?
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Sox fan.
Individuals don't win Championships, Teams do.
Chase for 28
"Boos are compliments" - Alex Rodriguez
Get Off My Mound
I know who I am
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"That place was for diehard sports fans. I only follow my team when they're in the playoffs" - Homer Simpson
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions
too young, doesn't know family guy
Hello everyone, my name is Curtis Granderson, and I'm a bus-o-holic
A supporter of the MFY.
Family Guy is my favorite show
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions
?
Photoshop Gallery: http://img704.imageshack.us/g/ggbg.jpg/
by Jedi Master A-Rod on Oct 14, 2010 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Jedi knows what I'm talkin' 'bout
Hello everyone, my name is Curtis Granderson, and I'm a bus-o-holic
A supporter of the MFY.
It doesn't matter
all my blogs are better anyways l)
In all seriousness….. Yankees Intel.
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions
lol
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I am Yankee Country.
Individuals don't win Championships, Teams do.
Chase for 28
"Boos are compliments" - Alex Rodriguez
Get Off My Mound
REALLY?
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I do
sarcasm
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Off-topic: You should try to put text in your youtube videos to help segment your reports.
by Scooby Snacks on Oct 14, 2010 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions
I did for this show today
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Yea but PSA awoke me out of the coma.
This is old news.
Individuals don't win Championships, Teams do.
Chase for 28
"Boos are compliments" - Alex Rodriguez
Get Off My Mound
Obviously
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Anyways Blog names people?
Going Balls Deep is actually pretty funny.
Individuals don't win Championships, Teams do.
Chase for 28
"Boos are compliments" - Alex Rodriguez
Get Off My Mound
Total bases would be good
but its taken
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions
that was useless
Hello everyone, my name is Curtis Granderson, and I'm a bus-o-holic
A supporter of the MFY.
You're close to being on my
shit list.
Individuals don't win Championships, Teams do.
Chase for 28
"Boos are compliments" - Alex Rodriguez
Get Off My Mound
I'm just joking
I can’t think of anything. I would, but Edgware said I have no right to.
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions
holy shit calm down it was a frekkin joke...
Hello everyone, my name is Curtis Granderson, and I'm a bus-o-holic
A supporter of the MFY.
Oh...
sorry
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions
You have no right to be sorry.
Individuals don't win Championships, Teams do.
Chase for 28
"Boos are compliments" - Alex Rodriguez
Get Off My Mound
ha. ha.
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Wagons R Us
Winning cures all...even stupid
by FreeBradshaw on Oct 14, 2010 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions
too late, i call it
Hello everyone, my name is Curtis Granderson, and I'm a bus-o-holic
A supporter of the MFY.
Jets commercial has Rex Ryan saying
“Come on hop on our wagon”
Individuals don't win Championships, Teams do.
Chase for 28
"Boos are compliments" - Alex Rodriguez
Get Off My Mound
Nah Cowboys man.
We going to beat the tendinitis out of Favre.
Individuals don't win Championships, Teams do.
Chase for 28
"Boos are compliments" - Alex Rodriguez
Get Off My Mound
Favre gonna beat you like Bokeem Woodbine
Winning cures all...even stupid
by FreeBradshaw on Oct 14, 2010 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions
.....
Photoshop Gallery: http://img704.imageshack.us/g/ggbg.jpg/
by Jedi Master A-Rod on Oct 14, 2010 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I have a feeling this isn't the whole story.
I saw this earlier today looks fake.
Individuals don't win Championships, Teams do.
Chase for 28
"Boos are compliments" - Alex Rodriguez
Get Off My Mound
his testicles are getting walloped, looks pretty real
Hello everyone, my name is Curtis Granderson, and I'm a bus-o-holic
A supporter of the MFY.
PTI thought its a joke.
Individuals don't win Championships, Teams do.
Chase for 28
"Boos are compliments" - Alex Rodriguez
Get Off My Mound
Hope it is.
Balls.
Individuals don't win Championships, Teams do.
Chase for 28
"Boos are compliments" - Alex Rodriguez
Get Off My Mound
not at all?
Winning cures all...even stupid
by FreeBradshaw on Oct 14, 2010 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Sadly so would TJack or Rosenfels.
Individuals don't win Championships, Teams do.
Chase for 28
"Boos are compliments" - Alex Rodriguez
Get Off My Mound
That's hilarious
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Does the wagon have heavy duty shocks?
Photoshop Gallery: http://img704.imageshack.us/g/ggbg.jpg/
by Jedi Master A-Rod on Oct 14, 2010 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Well Ryan fills the whole wagon...
Individuals don't win Championships, Teams do.
Chase for 28
"Boos are compliments" - Alex Rodriguez
Get Off My Mound
Any one see at OTM today?
Randy stepped down.
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 6:46 PM EDT reply actions
huh?
Individuals don't win Championships, Teams do.
Chase for 28
"Boos are compliments" - Alex Rodriguez
Get Off My Mound
The guy who runs OTM stepped down.
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions
You guys do not pay attention
to OTM well.
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Wonder why that is...
And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Oct 14, 2010 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Well I would know if that happened here
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Because you spend more time here than you do there.
A large majority of the people here don’t care about other teams blogs.
And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Oct 14, 2010 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions
really?
oh
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Yep
If OTM burst into a proverbial fire, I wouldn’t really care.
concentrate... concentrate... I've got to concentrate... concentrate... concentrate... Hello?... hello... hello... Echo... echo... echo... Pinch hitting for Pedro Borbon... Manny Mota... Mota... Mota...
You pay too much attention over here.
Individuals don't win Championships, Teams do.
Chase for 28
"Boos are compliments" - Alex Rodriguez
Get Off My Mound
There is no action anywhere else
and I consider myself a follower of the Yankees, though I do not root for them
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions
course not
the hell gives a crap about the Red Sox….
Winning cures all...even stupid
by FreeBradshaw on Oct 14, 2010 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions
you
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions
you too pal
Winning cures all...even stupid
by FreeBradshaw on Oct 14, 2010 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm your pal? ha
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd knock the dust off it
Winning cures all...even stupid
by FreeBradshaw on Oct 14, 2010 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Tell them I'll hop on the Sox wagon if they give me a job
Hello everyone, my name is Curtis Granderson, and I'm a bus-o-holic
A supporter of the MFY.
As a mod?
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions
yup...
I'm dead serious right now
Hello everyone, my name is Curtis Granderson, and I'm a bus-o-holic
A supporter of the MFY.
Well..
I guess being a mod here wouldn’t be so bad
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by bestbostonsports on Oct 14, 2010 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh my...
And if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees
by WhatwouldJeterdo on Oct 14, 2010 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions
This is comical.
Individuals don't win Championships, Teams do.
Chase for 28
"Boos are compliments" - Alex Rodriguez
Get Off My Mound
No saying bard is ugly, fear the BBShammer!
Hello everyone, my name is Curtis Granderson, and I'm a bus-o-holic
A supporter of the MFY.
Don’t be getting any ideas!
Writer for Pinstripe Alley, MLB Daily Dish,
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Big Yankees and Rangers fan!
I would send the RAB after you if you promoted her..
Hello everyone, my name is Curtis Granderson, and I'm a bus-o-holic
A supporter of the MFY.
If she became a mod here I’d die of shock.
Writer for Pinstripe Alley, MLB Daily Dish,
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Big Yankees and Rangers fan!
No, you'd die of "crossfire"
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapid_Action_Battalion
Hello everyone, my name is Curtis Granderson, and I'm a bus-o-holic
A supporter of the MFY.
Hostile takeover, I like it
concentrate... concentrate... I've got to concentrate... concentrate... concentrate... Hello?... hello... hello... Echo... echo... echo... Pinch hitting for Pedro Borbon... Manny Mota... Mota... Mota...
like any self respecting Red Sox fan
quit when it gets tough
Winning cures all...even stupid
by FreeBradshaw on Oct 14, 2010 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Jimmy Fallon?
Individuals don't win Championships, Teams do.
Chase for 28
"Boos are compliments" - Alex Rodriguez
Get Off My Mound
i want lee bad.... we should put burnett on the block
by SLAUGHTERHOUSE on Oct 14, 2010 11:49 PM EDT reply actions
CLIFF LEE
4 YEARS AT 20 MILLION PER YEAR OR SEE YOU LATER. If someone else wants to go 5 at 25 per year….goodbye and good luck.
burnett will be gone before his contract is over and lee will be a yankee
bottom line
by SLAUGHTERHOUSE on Oct 15, 2010 11:32 AM EDT reply actions
bottom line is Burnett will not be gone before his contract is over....
the Yanks won’t release him and he can’t be traded. Dunno why people even think that its possible.
But LEe probably will be a Yank…unfortunately.
Bokeem Woodbine
by FreeBradshaw on Oct 15, 2010 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Wrong
Sounds like the same reasoning that led us to Javy Vasquez over Schilling back in the day.
"Here, if you have a milkshake, and I have a milkshake, and I have a straw. There it is, that's a straw, you see? You watching?. And my straw reaches acroooooooss the room, and starts to drink your milkshake... I... drink... your... milkshake!"-Daniel Plainview
by yankee come lately on Oct 15, 2010 1:58 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I'm surprised no one has brought up this point regarding the post topic
Why do we have to only go after pitchers who are at the top of their games instead of pitchers on the upswing??
We do this year after year too. Sure, Cliff Lee has a pretty fantastic pitcher. No one is gonna argue that. But we wait until these guys are essentially at their peak value which means we not only have to pay top dollar, but in signing these types of pitchers, our return isn’t necessarily for the long term.
Look, we got C.C., which is great, but at the same time, we go for the Javy’s, the AJs, te biggest names available. Shit, we went after a 40 year old Randy Johnson!!!! Sure, these guys are excellent pitchers, but we get suckered into this web and lose much more often than we win.
i love that someone is making a case for why we shouldn’t get Cliff Lee. Myself personally, I’d love to have the guy, but I would much rather go after a pitcher who could be the next Cliff Lee in 2 years. We could get him much cheaper and develop him in our system!!! When the Yankees sign a pitcher, we shouldn’t have to insert the line “in 3 years _ is gonna be 35 yrs old.” or “how long before _ becomes a burden?”
Just food for thought… a guy like Greinke is about to turn 27. Of course he would cost a significant lot…but Cliff Lee is 32. I’m not gonna say Grienke should be our target, but a 27 year old pitcher should be.
"you're the Rod Thorn in my Chris Bosh side."
by Chris Child's Fist on Oct 15, 2010 4:01 PM EDT reply actions
But actually... Hell yeah Greinke should be a target. Cy Young under his belt
And you have to believe his pitching was deeply affected by knowing his offense was NOT going to help him out. Seriously… the Royals blow. Maybe if their owner would stop running the team like a WalMart, they could field a contending team.
"you're the Rod Thorn in my Chris Bosh side."
by Chris Child's Fist on Oct 15, 2010 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Upswing like AJ?
He’s got alot of good years left in him. No. Really.
You got a chance to get Cliff Lee you get him. No brainer.
I love Ted Lilly. I love Javy Vasquez... and NO Cliff Lee
I really do wonder sometimes if this is just a board full of soccer fans.
mind-boggling.
If Lee ...
hadn’t been traded to Texas, they would not be in the World Series today. Conversely, had we landed Lee, I believe we would be in The Series instead of Texas. However, I’m glad the deal didn’t happen because I believe Montero will become a star.
"Baseball is the background music of my life." -George Will
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