One Final Thought on Left Field
by Brandon C. on Jan 17, 2010 9:00 AM EST
in Analysis
62 comments
Sorry about the personal lack of posting lately, been really busy. Anyway, I was just looking at some stats of Johnny Damon's and Brett Gardner's and saw something very interesting.
Here are Johnny Damon's stats in his first full season in the MLB (with the Royals)
.271/.313/.368
Here are Brett Gardner's:
.270/.345/.379
Sure, Damon got more home-runs (by 3) and more RBI's (50-23), but that was in 37 more games played.
Overall, Damon is obviously the better player, but can't we all give Gardner a chance? I know I am repeating previous posts, but this stat I felt was important.
Other thoughts:
-The Yankees should work hard and try to acquire a lefty-reliever. Yes, they do have Damaso Marte, Royce Ring and Boone Logan, but if a better option is available, why not?
-The more I read about it, the more I think Rocco Baldelli would be a great option for the Yankees.
-Don't buy into the whole "Yankees need a hitter that can hit lefties in left-field" idea. Gardner hit .291 vs. lefties compared to .264 against righties in 2009.
-Can't wait to see the list of non-roster invitees. Hopefully the Yankees will have a veteran infielder, another lefty-reliever, a few relief options, and a good power hitting first base option. (Shelley Duncan type player)
-Looking forward to seeing what the current invitees are capable of. Seems the Yankees have already gotten some pretty good players.
-If the Yankees are planning on keeping Joba and Hughes as starters they should consider getting a stop gap option such as Russ Springer, or Kiko Calero. If not they should keep both in the rotation and hope Zach McAllister, Ivan Nova, and Romulo Sanchez develop well.
-Not sure if anyone really cares but I am a HUGE The Who fan. Can't wait for the Super Bowl!
-Question: Name one retired Yankee that does not have his number retired, that should have it retired. Doesn't have to be only one, but it's an interesting topic. If you answer either Hideki Irabu you are at the risk of being banned from the website. Kidding....or am I?
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Not to sure if he counts
But I was thinking Jack Chesbro. He has the AL record for wins in a Season with 41, in 1904. Problem is, that was with the Highlanders and they did not have numbers back then. He is in the Hall of Fame and played the majority of his career with the NYH. Just not to sure if his career was all that spectacular.
He was included in a trade that sent him, cash and 3 players for 12 other players. 2 of those other players being Honus Wagner and Rube Waddell.
Bernie Williams should have his number retired
spent his entire career here, and won 4 world championships. Not to mention he is a borderline HOF candidate.
Also, while he is still around, Joe Torre, I think, should have his number retired. He’s one of the best managers this team ever had. He won 4 championships, made it to the series 6 times, and made the postseason 12 consecutive seasons. He, also, should be retired.
And maybe Kei Igawa should have his number retired down in Scranton. He is, after all, the all time wins leader down there. lol
Agree 100% on Bernie & Torre... would also consider Mattingly
Now LF… Forget about Rocco B. He is always on the DL. I do not like R. Johnson either as he is not that good defensively and is a very slow runner as far as outfielders go.
Nady, if healthy, would be my first choice on a one year low cost incentivized contract. Nady is still young and knows he must prove himself if he wants a better contract next year.
Hairston would be my second choice for LF platoon & bench/utility strength.
by YANKEES FOREVER on Jan 17, 2010 10:49 AM EST up reply actions
#23 is already retired . . .
I agree on Nady..can be a great value
I don't think we should consider
retiring numbers for borderline hall of famers. To retire a number he should be absolutely legendary, not someone who was just really really good.
Crowds are won and lost and won again, but our hearts beat for the diehards.
by Edwantsacracker on Jan 17, 2010 12:51 PM EST up reply actions
Bernie Williams has completely equal stats with Jim Rice
Career wise. And he’s more feared. More IBB for Bernie. So suck it Boston writers and vote for the better player to be in the Hall.
Leave me, leave me, I can't effin stand you.
Somewhat Disagree
As a hitter, Rice in his day was more feared than Bernie ever was. I do think Bernie is the better all-around player. But IMNSHO neither belong in Cooperstown.
The Warrior
Yes, Bernie should have his number retired. So should Paul O’Neil. If only the Yanks kept Tino instead of signing Giambi, we could make a case for him.
On the subject of Brett, maybe we should give him a chance, but he seems to be such a great weapon off the bench. I remember when Johnny played for Kansas City. He was turning heads then. I’m not sure Brett is that kind of player unless he stealing bags.
There's A Big Difference, Though....
…. Damon in his first full season was 22 years old. Gardner was 25 years old in 2009. This is a big difference. A player at age 22 has a better chance to develop further than a player at age 25, having similar seasons. like you mentioned. This doesn’t mean that Gardner couldn’t get better but there’s a good chance he won’t become Damon. Gardner probably won’t hit many home runs. He’ll be more of a true leadoff-type of player, which would be just fine. A high on-base percentage with some doubles and triples, along with a good stolen-base percentage, along with defense, will make him a very useful player.
I agree with what you’re saying about age – there’s a huge difference between doing something as a 22-year old big-leaguer compared to a 25-year old.
I disagree about Gardner being a leadoff hitter. The biggest mistake most managers make is putting fast guys in the leadoff position, ignoring the fact that it’s their job to get on base, period. Jeter is a lock for a .380-.390 OBP, so until Gardner shows us he can do that too, it’s the #9 hole for him.
I Was Indicating...
…. what Gardner might be in the future. This gives away that you and I agree on a good leadoff hitter and what he has to do to get there:
“He’ll be more of a true leadoff-type of player, which would be just fine. A high on-base percentage with some doubles and triples, along with a good stolen-base percentage, along with defense, will make him a very useful player.”
(I like quoting myself.)
And also...
Damon hit .318/.402/.480 in the minors, Gardner hit .289/.389/.383, so in his first year Damon was a 22 year old top prospect who excelled in the minors while Gardner is a 25 year old 4th outfielder/fringe starter who was able to get on base and steal bases in the minors. Big difference.
While my first choice is to bring Damon back, I’m not against Gardner having a chance to win the LF job…but he should have to win it. He’s never done anything to earn just being handed 500+ at bats. That’s why, if we go with Gardner, we need a better alternative than a rule 5 pick. Reed Johnson. Xavier Nady. Rocco Baldelli. There are still plenty of names out there.
I don’t think we need to sign a utility infielder or a reliever. Ramiro Pena can be as good as any veteran middle infielder out there. As for the bullpen I really like what the Yankees have done the last 2 years by developing their own young relievers rather than bringing in veteran retreads like they did under Torre.
As for the retired number, definitely Bernie. Hopefully that happens soon.
by Let's Talk About Tex Baby on Jan 17, 2010 11:21 AM EST up reply actions
#51 / #6
agree re: bernie..and i think torre will get it one day (though not in the near future) . . that would complete 1-10 nicely (assuming 2 is reserved for Jeter)
"-The more I read about it, the more I think Rocco Baldelli would be a great option for the Yankees."
Why? What is the appeal in a player who can’t even really be counted on as a platoon player? Baldelli has a muscular disease that literally keeps him out days at a time. I like the guy, but there’s no way he’s a logical fit…anywhere in the league.
by FloridaownsFSU on Jan 17, 2010 12:04 PM EST reply actions
He got therapy and Medicine
for his condition, and is expected to be fully healthy next year (might need some off days, but much better than last year). If he come’s cheap, he’ll definitely be worth it.
I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious.
Vince Lombardi
by moose35 on Jan 17, 2010 12:05 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Interesting
although I would like a link to confirm this.
And even if there is a way to help regulate his condition, he’s still very injury-prone, as evident by his 2 DL trips last year, amongst many other DL stints he had while in Tampa Bay.
by FloridaownsFSU on Jan 17, 2010 5:02 PM EST up reply actions
LF is just fine
See what Gardner can do before you send him to the bench. You non-believers may be pleasantly surprised. He will not be a star but he will not be a big weak link either
Thank You
Writer for Pinstripe Alley.
"Today I consider myself the luckiest man on the face of this earth."
"So I close in saying that I may have had a tough break, but I have an awful lot to live for."
NO!
LF is not just fine with Gardner…If Gardner was on the Sux and the Sux fans were crowing that “he’s just fine” you and everybody else on this site would be laughing uncontrollably. Admit it, you’re just trying to ease your own pain knowing that Gardner is gonna be a starter on the New York Yankees…what a joke.
You don't have a clue on talent.
Enough with the hate. Just wait and see. You know what is funny, you guys thinking that you can make a better decision the Yankees coaching staff. LOL. My prediction is:
.280+ batting average
400+ abs
10 triples
25 doubles
45 stolen bases
.380+ on base%
"WhoknewtheRedSoxexistedbefore2004.com"
-FreeBradshaw
by McDaniel on Jan 17, 2010 3:55 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
.380 OBP?
your pushing it. Gardner isn’t walking that much. A .280 average is possible, but I’m thinking that if he plays every day, it’ll be around a .260-.270 range.
That is very very very optimistic
Gardner is not getting a .380 OBP. Subtract like 40 points for a more realistic number.
Leave me, leave me, I can't effin stand you.
Save this
and at the end of the year we’ll see. I don’t have a clue on talent? And I guess your opinion, and that’s all it is unless you’re an employee of the New York Yankees, matters than mine? Why is it people like you always have to try to degrade anybody who disagrees with you? Shallowness, that’s the answer dude.
Ohhh david d don't cry
Look at what you said before about the sux and if they had Gardner you ass. You were the one degrading Gardner and anyone who likes him. Shallowness my foot. Your the type of fan that needs to have a big name player in every position. I bet you wanted matt holliday to play lf too! Stay shallow and watch Gardner run all over you!!!!
"WhoknewtheRedSoxexistedbefore2004.com"
-FreeBradshaw
by McDaniel on Jan 18, 2010 8:07 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Not
Wasn’t degrading Gardner. That wasn’t my point. You’re one of those people who can’t hear a dissenting opinion. Your response makes my point…to a T. And no, I don’t want an all-star at every position. I’m one of those who would’ve liked to keep Melky and leave the pitching staff alone. I like to see guys come up thru the system. I’m not on the Mauer as-a-Yankee bandwagon either. He needs to stay in Minnesota. I think that’s what is best for baseball. Everybody speaks so highly of Montero, so why is everyone so hyped up about signing Mauer if the opportunity arises? Let Montero inherit the position. I still don’t like the Granderson deal either…You have no idea what type of fan I am, another one of your stupid comments. I’ve probably been a Yankee fan since well before you were born. You’re an immature, intolerant know-it-all. Admit it.
???
You said that you were probably around longer before i was born yet you said"Not" . Don’t twelve year old kids say that?
Anyways, how were you not degrading Gardner when you were saying this,
“If Gardner was on the Sux and the Sux fans were crowing that "he’s just fine" you and everybody else on this site would be laughing uncontrollably. Admit it, you’re just trying to ease your own pain knowing that Gardner is gonna be a starter on the New York Yankees…what a joke”—
That sounds like you were talking down to anyone who thinks Gardner is fine and you don’t think Gardner has any talent ot start left field. SO WTF were you talking about then?
And yes I do not believe you have a good judgement of talent.
Granderson, Swisher, and Gardner is a decent outfield. PLenty of teams would love to have those 3. Why isn’t the Granderson deal good? Or Vazquez?
WE needed a 4th starter, and we got one. We also needed an outfielder and we got one in Granderson. IDK old man, maybe it is the old school television you use or your bottle cap glasses, or what?
"WhoknewtheRedSoxexistedbefore2004.com"
-FreeBradshaw
Countering perceived ridiculousness
with ridiculousness, is plain friggen stupid.
Gardner is not OBPing .380 in 2010. Get outta here with that. I have nothing against the guy, but I’m much more comfortable with him as a 4th OFer/pinch runner/defensive replacement on this team, not as a starting LFer. And his bat certainly isn’t one that suits LF well.
by FloridaownsFSU on Jan 17, 2010 5:04 PM EST up reply actions
dude if he pulls that off I will buy you the best hooker money can buy
and if your married I will send your honey tickets to the thunder down under.That would be just fine with me
Let the Panic bloom
by cashman bashman on Jan 17, 2010 6:11 PM EST up reply actions
Pretty much
you’re expecting him to have a better season than Damon.
I’m sorry, that’s simply not realistic. Damon OPSed .915 at Yankee Stadium last year. He’s still a very good hitter, especially at home.
by FloridaownsFSU on Jan 17, 2010 6:25 PM EST up reply actions
Gardner is not the answer ...
Hey, Gardner might surprise almost everyone and become a vital cog to the Yankees machine. But I don’t see it. He’s punch and judy at best with a penchant for not making enough contact, and doesn’t walk enough at this point in his career. Defensively, he can outrun a baseball, but his arm is mediocre at best. No, given the Yankees financial situation, it’s just a matter of time before they gobble a FA off the heap relegating Gardner as the 4th OF—which in my opinion is where he can contribute most.
"Baseball is the background music of my life." -George Will
on the lefty reliever arguement...
It didnt seem that essential last season…
http://www.bronxbaseballdaily.com/?p=1912
"What do the Detroit Red Wings and the Titanic have in common?
They both look good until they hit the ice!"
Visit> http://www.bronxbaseballdaily.com/
by SportsDalaiLama on Jan 17, 2010 12:56 PM EST reply actions
Yes, I had read that
Still, they had Coke last year who was a solid player despite the poor numbers towards the end of the year. Dunn was a pretty good prospect but was never given a chance.
Writer for Pinstripe Alley.
"Today I consider myself the luckiest man on the face of this earth."
"So I close in saying that I may have had a tough break, but I have an awful lot to live for."
but...
coke had 60IP a number Marte will likely get this year the next highest by a lefty was 13IP…as long as you have righties who can do the job also its not as big of an issue…the whole lefty pitching to lefty strategy has really diminished with all the lefty hitters who have figured out how to hit lefties (Matsui).
"What do the Detroit Red Wings and the Titanic have in common?
They both look good until they hit the ice!"
Visit> http://www.bronxbaseballdaily.com/
by SportsDalaiLama on Jan 17, 2010 1:47 PM EST up reply actions
Retired Numbers
I’d love to say Paul O’Neill or Bernie and maybe one day they will. And perhaps this is only limited to players, but lest we forget Mr. Joe Torre. What he did with the teams especially in ‘96 and ’98 is incredible. Down the line things may have gotten nasty with him, but come on, look at ownership and what they were jamming down his throat at the time and the attitudes that came with some of the players he was dealing with. He is up there with Stengel and Martin in my books as one of the Yankees’ legendary managers.
Torre
Stengel and Martin’s numbers are retired as managers, and Miller Huggins didn’t wear a number but he has a monument . I think Torre’s book eliminated any chance of the Yankees retiring his number in the near future, which is fine with me because I hated Torre as a manager. He did have historic success in the late 90’s, which I would argue had very little to do with him, but still one could make the case for his number being retired.
by Let's Talk About Tex Baby on Jan 17, 2010 1:23 PM EST up reply actions
Really?
I agree, his number should be retired as a manager. That’s fine by me. I know the book kind of killed his relationship with ownership, but come on, the guy helped to bring in 4 World Series, and 6 Pennants. I think that’s certainly a case to be made for # 6.
#51 #6 #1
bernie and torre, obviously. but they probably will be after they are on the ballot, so in a couple of years for bernie and five years after torre retires, whenever that is.
1, as you guys know, was retired for billy martin. but no one ever thinks of earl combes, the lead off hitter on the murderers row team. he, too, made the hall of fame, and was a huge contributor to those teams. we already have 8 retired twice, i think earl combes deserves the honor too.
if ur gonna double retire #1
shouldnt Murcer be honored
"What do the Detroit Red Wings and the Titanic have in common?
They both look good until they hit the ice!"
Visit> http://www.bronxbaseballdaily.com/
by SportsDalaiLama on Jan 17, 2010 1:49 PM EST up reply actions
One More
What about Red Ruffing? He has a plaque in Monument Park, why not retire his number? I certainly think a case can be made for him as a player and a person.
15
It’s already retired for Munson.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
Red Ruffing and Lefty Gomez have plaques but no retired number.
I’ve advocated this on this site for a while: Hold “Player X” Day, hang a plaque, but don’t retire their number.
Day and Plaque: O’Neil, Williams, Pettitte
Day, Plaque, Retired Number: Torre, Jeter, Rivera
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
I can't help but feel that one day, Cano's number is going to be on that wall
"We're only going to score 17 points?"
Is there even room for more numbers and plaques?
Thinking about this made me think about what an awful job the Yankees did with Monument Park at the new stadium, putting it in, basically, a dark pit beneath the Mohegan Sun monstrosity. They’d have to rearrange things for there to even be room for more numbers out there.
by Let's Talk About Tex Baby on Jan 17, 2010 3:48 PM EST reply actions
anyone ever think that monument park for the old stadium is going to be seperate from the new
maybe a whole differant section for the future greats of this park?Jeter and the boys would close out the current of coarse.Don’t really know where it would go but hey its an idea to get more.Probably will hear cries of blasphamy now.
Let the Panic bloom
by cashman bashman on Jan 17, 2010 6:17 PM EST up reply actions
Final Thought(s)
Which one was your final thought?? Thought you had just one final one….and that would be it………………but you just kept going and going.
That was for left field
The rest I just came up with as I was going along….haha
Writer for Pinstripe Alley.
"Today I consider myself the luckiest man on the face of this earth."
"So I close in saying that I may have had a tough break, but I have an awful lot to live for."
I wanna give Gardner a chance as well.
I just think he has potential. Overall, we’ll see.
Also, I’m all for them retiring Bernie’s #51.
"WHO WOULD LEAD?! THE CLOWN?!"
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Jan 17, 2010 5:19 PM EST reply actions
Gardner is too inconsistent...
reminds me of cano w/ the bat in terms of his hot/cold streaks….but obviously not as good a hitter as cano.
I would have thought that somewhere along the line someone would have sat him down and said son “bunt more” because i just don’t think he used that enough. It’s one thing if your Curtis Granderson and hitting 25 jacks a year….but your not. Be smart, bunt the ball, play smart, move runners over, steal bases.
"If you don't know what you're doing... just rush the quarterback" - LT
Give Gardner a chance
I agree. The Yankees should give Gardner a chance. He has the tools to be a Yankee regular. He’s got speed, patience at the plate, defense, and hustle.
He is still young and has a long way to go. He still makes the minimum and will take years before his salary increase.
Gardner is the right guy in the 9th hole. The Yankees should be aware that they got something in Brett Gardner.
I'm not one for flip flopping the outfield to
make Gardner the center fielder. But we are looking to get about the same production from our outfield as they did last year. Granderson fills in for Damon and Gardner has to fill in for himself and Melky. There might be a bit of a dropoff but overall I think the outfield got better defensively, younger, and its a good thing.
There wouldn’t be as much complaining if his production were coming from a center fielder. Of course Granderson’s production isn’t nearly as impressive when coming from a a corner outfielder. The lineup is what is, and I still think its one of the best in the American League and baseball.
Crowds are won and lost and won again, but our hearts beat for the diehards.
by Edwantsacracker on Jan 17, 2010 11:48 PM EST up reply actions
Gardner is not that young though
26 is relatively old for just your second season in the majors
i think he can have a few successful seasons with us but he will not turn into Johnny Damon, who has the career stats that are comparable to some hall of famers
no interest in giving gardner a chance at LF
ill give him a chance at being a pinch runner off the bench, which is what he is but when it comes to left field, i dont care how their first seasons compare. the BOTTOMLINE is that johnny will hit 25-30 homeruns with over 80 rbis and gardner will have 5hrs with 50 rbis. compare that
O SNAP!!
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
by CasanovaWong on Jan 18, 2010 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
Damon vs. Gardner
Johnny Damon’s 1st full year – 22 years old, jumped straight from AA to the majors.
Brett Gardner’s 1st full year – 25 years old.
And if you can find any year Gardner had to compete with what Damon did as a 21-year-old at AA, you’d have a point:
.343/.434/.534, 16 HR, 54 RBI, 26 SB
It’s not even remotely relevant to compare their first MLB seasons.
http://newyorksportsjerk.blogspot.com/
by New York Sports Jerk on Jan 18, 2010 2:20 PM EST reply actions
Eric Byrnes for LF
I have no prob with Gardy being the left fielder this year, but Eric Byrnes is going to be released and can play for the league minimum this year. When healthy , he would be the perfect fit for Yankee LF. Scrappy, power, speed……..Always wanted him in pinstripes ..anybody even hear a mention of him on the yankee radar?
Agree 100% Byrnes/Gardner split makes a lot of sense.
Eric Byrnes at $400K for one year is a steal.
Cash, the window of opportunity won’t last long, make it happen.
by YANKEES FOREVER on Jan 19, 2010 3:10 PM EST up reply actions
Nady will play some left field, Swisher will play alittle in left, Granderson can move to left
and Gardiner can play alittle Center. Gardiner is no 400 at bat player. No power and he still looks overmatched by good power pitchers. There is still hope that Damon will cave, rather
Boros will do the deal. He has and probably always will have large contract to do with Cashman. This time is a buyers market, he can buy some goodwill bringing his client, Damon on board. If Gardiner is not going to be a fixture in left for the next two years, he may as well not be there at all.
by sudden death overtime on Jan 19, 2010 7:20 PM EST reply actions
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