Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Dallas Cowboys Projects: Aston Whiteside

MVP 1978 and 1986: Yankees Got Jobbed

Just went back to look at Ron Guidry's pitching line for his terrific 1978 season -- the season in which young me became a Yankee fan, incidentally -- and that led me to look at the MVP voting from that year. One thing quickly became apparent: MVP voting is neither rational nor objective; nor are the stated reasons for voting in a particular manner consistent... in other words, the voting is par for the course in the absurdity of human reasoning and the joke that is human rationality. Or take the short answer: in 1978 and/or 1986 (I'll get to that after the jump), the Yankees got jobbed!

Star-divide

In 1978, Jim Rice was voted MVP and Guidry finished second in the voting. Per my recollection, the stated reason was that Guidry, great as his season might have been, was a pitcher and therefore only impacted the game once every so many days; Rice was an everyday player and as such had a greater overall impact on the games.

Okay, let's accept that at face value.

In 1986, Don Mattingly had a monster season... in fact, the case could be made that Mattingly's 1986 campaign actually surpassed that of Rice in 1978. So why the heck did Mattingly finish SECOND in MVP voting to Roger Clemens, who last time I checked was a pitcher?

See a problem here???

Let's get into some numbers. First, here are the pitching lines for Guidry 1978 and Clemens 1986 for comparison...

1978 Ron Guidry NYY:25-3, 1.74 ERA, 0.946 WHIP, 35 G, 273.2 IP, 13 HR, 248 SO

1986 Roger Clemens BOS: 24-4, 2.48 ERA, 0.969 WHIP, 33 G, 254.0 IP, 21 HR, 238 SO

Guidry outperformed Clemens across the board.

Now look at Rice 1978 vs. Mattingly 1986 for comparison... and note the eerie fact that they had EXACTLY the same number of at-bats in their respective seasons...

1978 Jim Rice BOS: 677 AB, 121 R, 213 H, 46 HR, 139 RBI, 58 BB, .315 BA, .370 OBP, .600 SLG, .970 OPS

1986 Don Mattingly NYY: 677 AB, 117 R, 238 H, 31 HR, 113 RBI, 53 BB, .352 BA, .394 OBP, .573 SLG, .967 OPS

Mattingly crushed Rice in batting average and and beat him handily in hits. Rice crushed Mattingly in home runs and beat him in RBI. OBP and SLG essentially cancel each other out, so OPS is effectively identical. One could make the argument that Rice's home runs were inflated by taking aim at the monster on a regular basis, but that's beyond the scope of this article. For our purposes, one can make a strong case that these two seasons were basically equivalent.

That brings us to the crux of the matter: how is it, if both hitters were equally good in their respective seasons, that in 1978 the superior pitcher lost the MVP, while in 1986 the lesser pitcher won the MVP? Also keep in mind that the "won their division" arguments works AGAINST the logic (if indeed there IS any logic here) that the MVP goes to the best player on the best team... the Yankees won the division in 1978.

(To add insult to injury, 1986 Rice had nearly as many MVP votes as 1986 Mattingly, despite underperforming Mattingly in virtually every category! I'll include those numbers below.)

Here is the MVP voting for both years in its historical context...

1978 MVP VOTING

1st (352 votes, 20 first place) Jim Rice BOS: 677 AB, 121 R, 213 H, 46 HR, 139 RBI, 58 BB, .315 BA, .370 OBP, .600 SLG, .970 OPS

2nd (291 votes, 8 first place) Ron Guidry NYY:25-3, 1.74 ERA, 0.946 WHIP, 35 G, 273.2 IP, 13 HR, 248 SO

1986 MVP VOTING

1st (339 votes, 19 first place) Roger Clemens BOS: 24-4, 2.48 ERA, 0.969 WHIP, 33 G, 254.0 IP, 21 HR, 238 SO

2nd (258 votes, 5 first place) Don Mattingly NYY: 677 AB, 117 R, 238 H, 31 HR, 113 RBI, 53 BB, .352 BA, .394 OBP, .573 SLG, .967 OPS

3rd (241 votes, 4 first place) Jim Rice BOS: 618 AB, 98 R, 200 H, 20 HR, 110 RBI, 62 BB, .324 BA, .384 OBP, .490 SLG, .874 OPS

Am I alone in thinking the Yankees got the fuzzy end of the lollipop in at least one of these seasons?

Poll
Did the MVP awards in 1978 and 1986 go to the right people?
1978 yes, 1986 no (Mattingly should have won)
17 votes
1978 no (Guidry should have won), 1986 yes
20 votes
1978 and 1986 no (Guidry and Mattingly both should have won)
40 votes
1978 and 1986 yes
8 votes

85 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 22 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

1978, 1986 MVP's

Thanks for sharing the research with us. I didnt realize the closeness-or lack there of in their numbers. I think Donnie baseball got robbed of many things in his illustrious-yet injury-shortened career. Had he been able to play just 5 more years i think he would be in the Hall by now. GO YANKS!!!!!!!!

by put pete in THE HALL on Sep 27, 2009 12:17 PM EDT reply actions  

Keep It Short!

I don’t have time to read something that long! It was good, but two words: Who Cares?

"Don't let your fears of striking out keep you from playing the game."

by Lizza on Sep 27, 2009 9:15 PM EDT reply actions  

Then don't read it if you don't have time.

Then you complain, “who cares?” It was an interesting historical piece. Not much can be done about it today but still, interesting.

by Rusty23 on Sep 28, 2009 8:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

No it wasn't! Why dwell on what could have happened, think about what can happen.

"Don't let your fears of striking out keep you from playing the game."

by Lizza on Sep 29, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

A lot of the richness of the Yankee tradition

is their history. We all cheer for this year’s team. (At least I hope we do.) Having some knowledge of Yankee history does not conflict with that. Maybe one cannot change the past, but that doesn’t mean one cannot have an opinion about it.

BTW, as author of the article, thanks for letting the whole world know so emphatically how uninteresting you found it. Feels great.

by pinstriper on Sep 29, 2009 8:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

LOL!

I actually wrote something very similar to what you just wrote in response to her but I erased it by mistake and decided it wasn’t worth my time. Seriously though, you have to wonder if this is a bandwagon fan. Since the Yankees have the richest history in all of baseball, why would this NOT be of at least some interest? Thanks again for posting this. It brought up some great points and memories.

by Rusty23 on Sep 30, 2009 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

You're very rude for a 11 year old.

Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.

by CasanovaWong on Sep 30, 2009 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good post

how about we add 2006 to the list when Derek Jeter should have won

by bronx joey on Sep 27, 2009 10:04 PM EDT reply actions  

I don't know...

…why try to find logic in anything the Baseball Writers do?

Still, Mattingly had just won the MVP in 1985, and despite having a better season in 1986, the Red Sox and Clemens won the AL East. I can see not giving it to Mattingly, especially since in 1986 was Roger’s first full season, and he essentially turned an 81 win team into a 95 win team.

In ’78, maybe a lot of voters had already decided on Rice when the Red Sox had a huge lead in the division.

by New York Sports Jerk on Sep 28, 2009 5:14 PM EDT reply actions  

"why try to find logic in anything the Baseball Writers do"

The argument in a nutshell.

You have to remember that Jim Rice “was the most feared hitter” of his day.

by 3460kuri on Sep 29, 2009 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, that old chestnut.

Got him in the HOF with pitiful home/road splits.

by New York Sports Jerk on Sep 29, 2009 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

I might add, he was so feared that he led the league in intentional walks zero times during his career.

Albert Pujols has been intentionally walked more in the past two seasons that Rice was in his entire career.

by 3460kuri on Sep 29, 2009 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

Interesting point.

Yankees Classics had the 1978 Yankees-Red Sox one-game playoff on the other day… guess how many times (zero) the Yankees intentionally walked Rice? Guidry looked more concerned about Yaz than he did about Rice.

by pinstriper on Sep 29, 2009 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm a believer...

that the MVP should be a position player, and the Cy Young award is the MVP for pitchers. How can you possibly compare a pitcher’s contribution to that of a position player, it’s like comparing apples and oranges.

by Wraithpk on Sep 28, 2009 6:52 PM EDT reply actions  

I agree but...

…then pitchers like Roger should not win Cy Young’s then.

And let me add that if closers like Rivera are not going to win the Cy Young because they only pitch 70-90 innings, then perhaps they should create a real award for them (and not the Rolaids award as that’s based on stats, not votes). Just my 2¢

by coops2001 on Sep 29, 2009 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

1978

This kind of stuff is fun to think about, thanks for posting. My instincts are that the two pitchers (Guidry and Clemens) should have won. Their teams won. Both races are close, so in these cases I give the tie to the pennant winner. Numbers like VORP or Win Shares would help clarify.

by stusviews on Sep 29, 2009 10:29 AM EDT reply actions  

Thank you so much!

I’ve been a Yankees fan since the 1970s and still am. I love this year’s team, follow the team every year. At the same time IMHO it’s great to learn about the team’s past. That’s one of the true joys of baseball: even though the comparison isn’t perfect between eras there’s enough similarity that one can appreciate the past. Especially with our team! Yankee history is particularly rich. Gonna take my kids to the Yogi Berra Museum one of these weekends to indoctrinate them, too. :-)

It bums me out to spend the time writing the article then have some folks just show up to diss it. Just because we can’t change the past doesn’t mean one should be ignorant of it. (sigh.)

by pinstriper on Sep 29, 2009 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s ironic, but when you base awards solely on quantifiable statistical measures, you eliminate all of the debate, all of the drama – basically, you eliminate all the reasons people care about them in the first place. That’s why nobody really cares about the Hank Aaron award (no offense, Hank).

by 3460kuri on Sep 29, 2009 2:21 PM EDT reply actions  

If the statistics were perfect . . .

this would be true but there are no perfect ones. We could give the MVP to the player with the highest VORP and this would kill interest. What I would like to see is statistical measures play more of a role in the debate and I think we are getting there. Witness the support for Greinke and Mauer this year. As there are more voters like Keith Law and Rob Neyer, awards will move in this direction. And there will still be debate, Law and Neyer for example don’t agree on everything.

by stusviews on Sep 29, 2009 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recent FanPosts

Newjedi_small
On Gary Sanchez
Swell_small
We Can Do Better
129090373127704989_small
Cole Hamels, the Phillies woes, & the Yankees
143404165_crop_650x440_small
DRob the Putz
Small
Mo's ACL
Moar_bacon_small
The Captain Calls a Players Only Meeting
Mickey-mantle-at-yankee-stadium-1963-photographic-print-c10115880_small
Wow, so now where do we stand?
Dsc00073_small
Rivera Thoughts: Endings, Scripts and Stories
Nyy_small
Mariano thoughts (AKA ramblings)
Mariano-rivera
Roster Nonsense

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

Yahoo_full_count

Managers

Mo_rivera_small Travis G

Nsapcs7_extr_small Brandon C.

Writers

Moar_bacon_small Lord Duggan

V5zevr_small WhatwouldJeterdo

Costanza_small I'mGivingYouARaise

303471_10151746570070545_653045544_23923912_598579634_n_small Frank Campagnola

Cone_coffeez_small Andrew GM

T128_small Rob Steingall

Don-mattingly_small William Juliano