An unexpectedly lucid (and facetious) article regarding Joba
by Travis G on Sep 15, 2009 12:17 PM EDT
in New York Yankees Analysis
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PrintAs a member of the MSM, you'd expect Joel Sherman to jump on the anti-Joba Rules bandwagon, but he surprisingly doesn't:
You might notice that teams all over the major league landscape are either curtailing or completely shutting down young pitchers because their innings have swelled too high. But, again, those are facts. And those are other teams. These are the Yankees and they are ruining Chamberlain. Right?
They're ruining him because he should be a reliever pitching less or a starter pitching more. Can't the Yankees see this? They are pitching him too much, except for when they are pitching him too little. Why can't the Yankees figure out how to use him just like you want him to be used, throwing seven innings as a starter on Monday and setting up Mariano Rivera on Tuesday?
And pesky facts make you realize Chamberlain is not a finished product. That and a conversation with, say, Dave Eiland. The Yankees pitching coach will fill your head with stuff you won't want to know, like that Chamberlain is only now fully appreciating the value of a usable pickoff move and learning how to make adjustments to faulty mechanics during a game.
It doesn't matter that the Yankees have invested time to research the history of pushing young arms too quickly, and reacted by putting policy in place to limit dramatic increases in innings.
I've gotten tired of constantly defending the Joba Rules, so this article should serve as a fair argument against those attacks (at least for a few days). I recommend reading the full article.
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More Joel Sherman strawman arguments
This Joba-bullpen supporter says that if you’re going to make him a starter, let him start.
If you’re going to limit him based on innings rather than pitches, you’re being stupid, period.
But, Travis (and Joel), by all means keep telling us what we’re saying since clearly you have no desire to actually listen.
There have been several valid points made by both sides in the argument, sadly one side has decided to ignore the other side and minimize our points to nothing but screaming.
To reiterate for those people who care to actually read: if Joba Chamberlain is a starter, give him the ball and let him start. If you want to limit his workload, at least be logical about it.
And next year, I don’t want to hear any more “rules.” This is getting ridiculous.
by New York Sports Jerk on Sep 15, 2009 12:51 PM EDT reply actions
Do you know why we have this problem?
It’s because Joba hasn’t gotten hurt this year, nor has he pitched poorly enough to get demoted to the minors. Those are the two ways a young pitcher’s innings most frequently are limited.
The reality is that Joba has pitched 143 innings so far this year, with another 15-20 coming in the regular season and perhaps 15-20 more in the postseason. That’s potentially a total of 185 innings this year, or nearly 70 more than he’s ever thrown in any other season – high school, college, or the minors.
That’s a big jump. If you’re training for a marathon, you don’t jump right from 15 miles to the full 26.
I’ve said this since day one. Considering how well the Yankees have been able to come up with effective relievers out of nowhere over the past two years (Coke, Robertson, Aceves, Bruney, Veras and Ramirez last year), why waste an elite prospect by relegating him to bullpen duty from the start?
As I've said two million times...
…counting total innings without considering pitch counts is pointless. How many 100-pitch, five-inning outings has Joba had? That’s enough pitches to throw 7 or 8 innings.
If they want to protect him, fine, but do it by actually protecting him and not just trying to make it look like you’re protecting him.
And please remove Bruney, Veras, Edwar and Coke from your “effective relievers” list. That’s just silly town. They are/were periodically effective, but none of them ever pitched to a 0.38 ERA over 24 innings, I can assure you.
by New York Sports Jerk on Sep 15, 2009 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
WXRL is kind of like WARP for relievers. It factors in the quality of hitters faced.
Coke has been worth 1.8 WXRL this year, Bruney 1.3. Veras was worth .9 WXRL last year. That’s a total of 4 wins above replacement. I’ll remove Edwar from the list as he was only .2 in 2008. Yes, Coke and Bruney have been effective, and Veras was effective last year.
Value is a relative term on the baseball field, and I’m not sure how good a reliever has to be before his value exceeds that of a league-average starting pitcher. As a struggling 23 year old, that’s what Joba is right now, but he’s got potential to be far more and he is under team control at a reasonable cost for four more seasons.
As far as I’m concerned, a cost controlled, league-average starting pitcher with upside is worth FAR more than your run of the mill reliever. Joba would have to be in the upper echelon of elite relievers to outweigh his value as a league-average starter, and even, there’s only so far he’s going to go. Andy Pettitte is probably worth more than Mariano Rivera this year.
Joba was awesome in 2007, so was Ian Kennedy. Who cares, it was 2007.
Beyond the stats
The Yanks bullpen has been well managed- aside from Veras this year, Girardi and Cash have done a pretty astute job of demoting the ineffective guys quickly. All those guys have had their moments, even though I wouldn’t trust any of them in Phil Hughes’ role.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
i agree
that pitches are more important than innings, but i believe the Yanks are looking more at pitches than just IP. an innings cap is just more palatable to casual fans.
to use an old cliche
wouldn’t you rather be safe than sorry?
we have a comfortable lead. there’s no reason to overwork Joba, especially since he’s had his share of injuries in the past. if he gets through the season uninjured, that’s a big step forward.
My guess is
that Joba will be more effective as a starter in 2010 when his workload and expectations are more normalized. Just a guess.
Question: If Joba was in the pen this year, would we have seen how effective Hughes is as an 8th inning pitcher?
Answer: No.
But Hughes is still a starter in the future.
It’s just easier to be in the bullpen than to start. Having Hughes or Joba be in the bullpen would be like having the Rainman work on his addition.
Your best talent goes to the rotation unless they prove without a doubt that they can’t cut it there, end of story.
Facial LaFleur, total facial.
This makes me wonder
why they don’t give Igawa a shot in the bullpen? Maybe he’d actually be effective?
I always thought there hope for Igawa because of his K rates.
But unless he’s learned to pitch this last year in Scranton there’s little hope- he kept throwing those high breaking balls hoping hitters would lay off them and they’d drop in for strikes, and those are just too hittable in MLB.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
I may not agree with Travis on everything
But this is a subject I have wholeheartedly agree with him on.
by HappyLuckyGoldenDragonNumber1! on Sep 15, 2009 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Joba again...
Overall Im still glad the Yankees didn’t give in to the Francesca’s of the world and make him a reliever…cuz he’s not one. I hope the Yanks are doing the right thing with him as far as the innings limit.
The thing I wish never would have happened was they put him in the pen in the first place, or at least they never HAD to put him in the pen. It was great while he was there, but it gave about to this whole annoyance.
If he was never in the pen, people would be laughing at the thought of him going to the pen. “Wait a minute, our best pitching prospect? To the pen? WHAT? He aint doing good…but aint that like giving up on him?”
I still feel that the whole pen thing is what screwed with him in the first place. Hopefully it doesn’t happen with Hughes.
What the f$%k is the internet?
Amen
Joba will always stick to being a starter like Phil Hughes and these limits will decrease the chances for further ineffectiveness or injury.
The majority of the MSM knows nothing.
Hughes and Joba are both starters
I firmly believe that both of these guys are going to be very good starters in the big leagues. And that next year will be a coming out party for the both of them when it comes to starting. Dominant relievers are a lot easier to come by than dominant starters.
People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring. ~Rogers Hornsby
get another starter
hte yankees need at least 1 more starter. Joba should be moved back to the pen next year for good. let him compete with hughes for the 8th inning job and then let one of them move in as a closer when rivera retires. I cant believe the yankees dont see this. you can extend joba’s career and his effectiveness by using this plan. Its easier to get a 4 and 5 starter than it is to find good relief pitching.
If it's so easy to get a good 4th and 5th starter
Then why did Sergio Mitre start last night?
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