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Masterson For Martinez

So nobody here thinks this is a joke. Cleveland gives away one of the 2 best offensive catchers in the AL for Masterson and that doesn't bother anyone?? You don't think the loud voice of Red Sox nation has a direct influence on baseball then you have your head up your booty.

 

Tell me how a guy who has 83 RBI and 17 HR wins an MVP. I understand If you are a lead off guy and you bat  .340 and steal 60 bases.

Tell me how a pitcher with a 4.5 ERA and 6 runs plus per game run support gets to be an allstar. A guy gets 6 runs a game and HE BETTER win some games

Tell me how you get Victor Martinez for a guy with a 4.5 ERA and a 1.34 whip.

Tell me how every prospect the Red Sox have is a can't miss, yet they can't resolve their issuesfrom within.

Justin Masterson gets traded and the Red Sox bull pen ERA goes down,......for Victor Martinez!!!!!

You people need to wake up and realize it has a direct affect on the NYY. Keep looking the other way and calling me a cry baby if you want. I see the big picture.

Justin Masterson value has been dramatically altered by the loud voice of Red Sox Nation,........PERIOD!!!!!!!

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I think you know why you're wrong

but I’ll help you anyway. First of all, the Red Sox didn’t get Martinez for Masterson. They got him for Masterson and two high ceiling minor league starters, one of which was number three on Baseball America’s top prospects list for the Red Sox. Masterson had one bad stretch this year and that accounts for his inflated ERA and WHIP. He is a young lively arm that will be a starter for Cleveland.

On to Pedroia. The 17 homers and 83 RBIs were gravy on top of the year he had. He was in the top three in hits, runs, average, doubles, won a gold glove, stole 20 bases and also hit homers and drove in runs. I know that you know, that is if you’re an educated baseball fan, that home runs and RBIs are not the most indicative statistics of a players worth. Try OBP and OPS.

Now for Tim Wakefield. He was the Red Sox savior for the first month of the year. They might be 8 games out if it weren’t for him. They started the year 2-6, and he came out the next day and almost threw a no-hitter. Beckett, Lester, Penny, and Matsuzaka all sucked for the first month or two, every one of them. But they stayed in contention for two reasons: the bullpen, and Tim Wakefield. Toss in the fact that he was leading the league in wins and he’s an allstar. his era is inflated because when he has a bad start, its usually like 7 runs in four innings, and then he goes right back to five straight quality starts.

You also said that it seems like every red sox prospect is a can’t miss. Well look at their team. Ellsbury, Pedroia, Buchholz, Youkilis, Papelbon, Lester, Bard, Lowrie, and until recently Masterson were all products of their farm system. And it doesn’t stop there. Their double A team would wipe the floor with the whole NL East (except for the Phillies). That’s why every red sox prospect is a can’t miss. because they normally don’t miss. And of course they can resolve their issues from within, they do all the time.

I don’t expect a response because there isn’t a good one.

by revived0103 on Aug 1, 2009 6:43 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Sox farm system isn't THAT good

I mean Bucholz is your best guy, and while he’s got nice stuff and potential, he’s Ok this season and last season wasn’t all that good. I wouldn’t exactly call him a hit just yet.

Ellsbury. Bard and Lowire I wouldn’t call either way either. Lowrie can’t stay in the lineup, Ellsbury is inconsistent (tho he steals bases when he’s on) and Bard doesn’t exactly have a sample size yet (tho he throws 100mph…so did Kyle Fansworth who Bard looks a hell of a lot like…at least a young Farnsworth)

They get credit for being up there tho and doing something.

The farm is good, you’ve brought guys up and had an MVP, a great (but ticking time bomb) closer, a GG caliber first baseman ( who wears a Pomeranian on his chin) who also OPS’s at an elite level.

But the idea that you people think that the farm is chock full of can’t misses is what Louie’s getting at. They all aren’t can’t misses (and the Nationals would mop the floor with the Red River Dogs or whatever the hell they call themselves). They all aren;t great, you don’t have the best farm system in the league.

by FreeBradshaw on Aug 1, 2009 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yes some of them are toss ups

but bard i wouldnt say is one of them. he’s been the sox best reliever this year

by revived0103 on Aug 1, 2009 10:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I know all about Bard

and he’s been great this season. He’s contributed this season, but I don’t really think he’s been facing too many batters just yet.

He’s a reliever and the league hasn’t gotten a good look at him just yet. Not saying he’s gonna get pounded anytime soon, the guy has filthy stuff. But I just wouldn’t put a rookie in the category of Pedrioa or even Ellsbury cuz he just hasn’t been around all that yet. I know he’ll probably continue it, but I wouldn’t set him in stone as a hit just yet.

by FreeBradshaw on Aug 2, 2009 8:34 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I should let you be right

And not respond to your non sense.

Just the fact that you include Jed Lowrie as a prospect who has succeeded makes you intolerable.
He has a 239 average in his first 300 AB. You talk about bard like he has made it. Please don’t tell me how he has arrived after 30 innings pitched. You make yourself sound like a fool.

Just because Wakefield carried YOUR TEAM in April doesn’t make him an allstar. People were using the terms “Sentimental Pick” FOR GOOD REASON. He wasn’t exactly mowing them down. Give me a break if you think he is an all star,..it’s a joke.

As far as Pedroias numbers Carlos Quentin and Ian Kinsler both had better numbers AND THEY MISSED 6 WEEKS. Morneau had better numbers as well. Pedroia had a good month, it just happened to be the last month.

You are not worth debating with, you are obviously an unobjective homer.

I see things you don't see.

by LouieTheLip on Aug 1, 2009 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i don't have time to respond right now

but i will later. to encapsulize my response however: you’re wrong.

by revived0103 on Aug 1, 2009 11:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

ok here goes.

lowrie got injured a week into the year, got back a couple weeks ago, and has struggled (duh) because he had to start his year over. He came up last year in the middle of the year and tore it up. He changed the team, was a doubles and RBIs machine. And he is a very capable SS. Good range, arm, turns the double play well.

Bard has been the Sox best reliever this year, no doubt. He can throw 101 MPH, he blows people away. He hasn’t made it yet, but by the end of the year will you admit he has?

You don’t lead the majors in wins at the All Star break by pitching mediocre. He was one of the most consistent pitchers in the AL in the first half, no doubt, and he was at times dominant. Like I said, his iffy ERA and WHIP are because of a couple horrendous outings.

Now we get to the Pedroia argument, and hear you are just flat out wrong. The argument you brought against Pedroia was that he ONLY hit 17 homers and ONLY drove in 83. Well Kinsler hit 18 and drove in 71. Wow. I see your point there. As for Quentin, yeah he had a great year, but you aren’t too VALUABLE to your team if your on the DL for the whole heat of the pennant race. So i don’t think he should be the leagues MOST VALUABLE PLAYER. Furthermore, he was injured because he’s an idiot and punched his bat in frustration, breaking his hand. Its stupid. Morneau clearly did not have a better year. He had only a few more homers and forty five more RBIS (he’s a middle of the order guy as opposed to a two hitter, thats why), but Pedroia was superior in runs, hits, doubles, stolen bases, average, OBP was a wash, and so was slugging even though Morneau clearly has more power! Pedroia also struck out less and won a gold glove. case closed.

by revived0103 on Aug 2, 2009 1:44 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Over reacting

Come on relax and take a deep breath. Masterson is not the pitcher with the highest upside in that trade. The southpaw that Boston gave Cleveland is. Personally I would compare Hagadone favorably with any left handed pitching prospect in the minors. He was Boston’s third highest ranked prospect- that is higher than Bard, Kelly and Westmoreland.

 Masterson is at worst a number 3 rotation guy as early as next year. Cleveland had picked up a solid major league catcher(Marson) from Philadelphia and they have Carlos Santana on the way. They were a bottom feeding team with Lee and Martinez. Today they have picked up seven highly rated prospects.

They don’t need Martinez but they made Boston pay dearly for him..

Cleveland despite the whining of their fans did well yesterday.

The fact that Boston and Philadelphia did well is just life.

by Jtmc on Aug 1, 2009 7:29 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

As a Sox Fan

I hate the deal. VMart doesn’t play much catcher, isnt very good at it when he does, has a 700OPS hitting when he catches, is only marginally better than LaRoche offensively (118OPS+ vs 113OPS+ career), is older and more expensive than LaRoche, is worse defensively at first. It creates a clusterf**k at first, and we gave up guys that were first and second round picks to do it. Masterson has very good secondary pitching #s and is at least a decent back end guy, and Hagadone has huge upside, was our #6 prospect, and was a first round pick. Just because you have not heard of him, and he had TJ surgery, does not mean he wont be an impact player. Bad and unnecessary move by Epstein.

by Buzzy on Aug 1, 2009 8:09 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Oh

and VMart is in a slump now that rivals Papi’s early this season before his shipment arrived.

by Buzzy on Aug 1, 2009 8:11 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

c'mon v-mart is clearly superior to laroche

much better OBP, more of a feared bat. nobody’s afraid of Adam Laroche, but V-Mart changes a lineup.

by revived0103 on Aug 1, 2009 8:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Better OBP

but overall he is very similar in OPS. As I said, LaRoche has a career OPS+ of 113, and Vmart 118. VMart is a career 832 OPS guy in a htter’s park. Totally overrated, and has never had a single OPS year of 900. Is that worth two good young pitchers when you already have a younger, cheaper, better fielding guy who has a career OPS+ of 5 points less? the only thing in VMart’s favor in that regard is that he switch hits, while LaRoche sucks against lefties. But he would not have to face lefties since Lowell mashes lefties, and Youk and Lowell would play against lefties. Total waste.

by Buzzy on Aug 1, 2009 8:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

dont forget the value he has a catcher

catching depth is like gold. it will make tek better and he is better than laroche.

by revived0103 on Aug 1, 2009 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

?

he is a crappy catcher who is worse defensively than Varitek na is throwing out the same % of runners. His OPS as a catcher is 50 point BELOW Teks. ANd who catches Wakefield when he returns? VMart is vastly overrated. He is a good guy, but as I said we traded good cheap young arms to ever so minutely improve offensively and create a clusterF**k of roster flexibility.

by Buzzy on Aug 2, 2009 7:14 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

V-Mart is catching today

and he’s 3 for 4 with three RBIs. Hes hitting third which lengthens the whole lineup, even with bay on the bench lowell is hitting seventh. Hes a better hitter than tek, not a little better, a lot better. the fact that he can catch is of great value, and so far he’s fine defensively.

by revived0103 on Aug 2, 2009 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

1 game?

Not only is merely one game, but its one game against the Orioles.

Overreact much??

by FreeBradshaw on Aug 2, 2009 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

unless he's getting his OBP

all by intentional walks, I don’t understand how the hell that = fear.

Guys don’t walk cuz of fear 95% of the time, usually its cuz the pitcher can’t find the plate.

by FreeBradshaw on Aug 1, 2009 9:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah

see below-VMart is less of a free swinger, and IS a slightly better offensive player, but he has clearly less power.

by Buzzy on Aug 1, 2009 9:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh and the fear argument

=stupid. Fear does not score runs. But since you say:
LaRoche-max HRs=32, career slugging=486, career ISO=.217.
VMart-max HRs=25, career slugging 463, career ISO=.166.

Unless walking more make you more feared (not to say it is not important) than LaRoche should be feared more. Look at the difference in ISO-he is MUCH more powerful. VMart is a good hitter for a catcher, but he is NOT our catcher, and is not a great hitter for a 1b.

by Buzzy on Aug 1, 2009 8:45 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

i dont know if laroche should be feared more

but he isn’t. and he was not gonna be the middle of the order power bat that the sox needed. he’s inconsistent, and V-Mart will be better in boston than he was in cleveland because he won’t be catching as much. he split time this year but was usually their catcher before.

by revived0103 on Aug 1, 2009 10:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

come on

fear is what fans think. He is not feared more. He is respected more from fans because he was a good hitting catcher. This is why he is a 3 time AS. But that is voted by fans. Good hitting catcher=good looking female caveman. Since he is mostly a 1b, he is a barely better hitting version of what we gave up. We dumped the only guy that can catch the knuckleball, took on new payroll, and most importantly gave up Hagadone and Masterson to do so.

by Buzzy on Aug 2, 2009 7:18 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

middle of the order power bat that the sox needed

How is VMart? He has a CAREER ISO of .166. LaRcche, the guy that can’t be that bat, is over 200. VMart has no real power.

by Buzzy on Aug 2, 2009 7:19 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wait,

You think this trade was made because the casual Sox fans said so?

by Charger567 on Aug 2, 2009 5:44 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Its the Yankees premium

oh you want Roy Halladay surreeee you can have him for Mark Teahan & Brian Bannister oh its the Phillies sure you want the AL Cy Young award winner ..>TAKKKE HIM for a bag of peanuts … the Red Sox ohhhh that loveble hardworking blue collar team with that gritty unpretentious fan base that sings Sweet Caroline you can have Vmart for some tickets behind the Green Monster… what a bunch of Bulll … !! I still wonder how in this country how with 2 wars going on ..the economy in shambles …Bud Selig was able to appoint a Senator from Maine who SITS on the BOARD OF DIRECTORS for the SAWX to lead an investigation on steroid use in baseball and THEN the only people who get leaked out up until recently are prominent names from NY …By the way you want Marc Scuttaro … WE WILL Take JOBA AND HUGHES and why dont you throw in CANO for good measure .. such BULL S&(@T ..

by MUSKRAT on Aug 2, 2009 1:06 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Plus 1

Amen!

I see things you don't see.

by LouieTheLip on Aug 2, 2009 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

not sure what youre talking about

both the phillies and red sox were winners in their trades, but they both gave up considerable prospects with high ceilings. the indians now have a good farm system.

by revived0103 on Aug 2, 2009 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Theo messed up

Boston was on the losing end of the deal. They lost out on prospects that could have helped in the long term (obviously). Hagadone is a stud and Masterson will at the worst be a regular starter. It was a classic, this-is-a-tight-race-so-lets-make-a-move, trade. It makes sense in the interim because offensively Varitek is horrible (has been for a while now, not just this year), and VMart is middle bat that can only help their lineup. But the price tag was pretty crazy for what they got.

Not sure what you mean by ‘direct influence’ from Red Sox nation… I think Theo just panicked.

by Hood on Aug 3, 2009 2:45 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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