Around the Yankee Universe: Day-trippin'
Today I make my second -- and probably last -- trek of the season from upstate New York to the new Yankee Stadium. I figure the Yankees owe me a victory and a sweep of the Blue Jays since my first visit was the historic 22-4 debacle lost to the Cleveland Indians.
I am getting up at 6 a.m. and spending more than three hours on a bus each way today, so I'm figuring I deserve to see a Yankee victory. On a nice warm, sunny day, too.
Anyway, the Yankees are rolling. Sunday's victory made it three straight over Toronto, and 10 wins in 11 games. The Yanks are just one game back of Boston. So, there isn't much to complain about this morning.
Being Yankee fans, though, we have to find something.
Cody Ransom's putrid defense is a good target. Thanks for those five unearned runs Sunday there, Cody. Keep that up and you'll play Ramiro Pena right back into pinstripes.
A better target, though, might be Joba Chamberlain. Now I know any mention of Joba, especially following Sunday's putrid 3.2-inning, 9-hit, 8-run (though only 3 were earned) performance is going to stir up the 'Joba to the bullpen' crowd.
That is not what I am trying to do here, but you do have to look at Joba these days and wonder what the heck is going on with the Yanks' prized young right-hander.
He has a 4.04 ERA. He has a WHIP of 1.52, after posting one of 1.26 last season. He has allowed 88 hits in 84.2 innings. He is barely averaging 5 innings per start. He is averaging just 7.87 strikeouts per nine innings, after being above 10 last season. His ERA+ is down from 171 last season to 112 this season.
Joba simply does not look the part of the dominant "ace in training" the Yankees have been waiting to see.
The question is, why? And no, the answer isn't as simple as 'he pitches better out of the bullpen.' Remember, his impressive numbers last season were compiled largely as a starter last season, when he compiled a 2.76 ERA in 12 starts and had 60 strikeouts in 65 innings.
Joba simply has not been the same since injuring his shoulder last season. In his handful of September appearances last season his velocity was down to 91-93 mph from the 95-98 we had become accustomed to. By and large, that is where it still is. We see glimpses of dominating stuff, but they are fleeting.
What we see now is a Chamberlain who is unable to overpower hitters, unless he can get into counts where he can put them away with his slider. His fastball is straight, and rarely touches 95. He seems to want to nibble around the corners, and he is largely reliant on using his variety of pitches to keep hitters guessing. Sounds a lot more like a veteran hanging on than a guy the Yankees think can be Josh Beckett or Justin Verlander.
Reduced stuff or not, Yankee Manager Joe Girardi wants to see Chamberlain stop screwing around on the mound and show some aggression.
"The 3-2 slider to the first hitter [Marco Scutaro] kind of set the tone in a sense," he said. "He got some long counts. He gets in the stretch, he works extremely slow. We talked to him about improving his pace a little bit.
"It's just about attacking the hitters. It's what it is. Sometimes your mechanics are going to be off a little bit and they don't allow you to do that. But it's important, because whether you're at old Yankee Stadium or new Yankee Stadium, rightfield is somewhat short. And you don't want to give up free baserunners."
Here is more from Newsday's Ken Davidoff, including a startling stat.
Chamberlain walked only one, but the fact that he threw 86 pitches to get only 11 outs supported Girardi's thoughts. He needs to go deeper in games. According to Tim Kurkjian in ESPN magazine, Chamberlain had the fewest decisions (nine) in his first 25 career starts of any pitcher in major-league history.
Chamberlain certainly did his share - as did Jays counterpart Brett Cecil, to be fair - to account for the game's final time of 3:44. If he worked any slower on the mound, Chamberlain would be a Wimbledon men's final.
Maybe part of the 'problem' is that Joba doesn't seem to think there is a problem.
In Joba's World, life wasn't too bad. "I did a good job today [of attacking hitters], I felt like," he said. "They're great hitters. I threw good pitches and they put good swings on it. They've been doing it all year. They're going to continue to do it."
Asked why Girardi thought he didn't attack the hitters, the pitcher said of his manager, "You'd have to ask him that."
"At the end of the day," he said, explaining why the boos didn't bother him, "the sun comes up, and I've still got a job. I give everything I have every time I go out. If that's not enough, then I don't know what is."
I don't know what the answer is. The Yanks are committed to keeping Joba in the rotation, and need him there now with the Chien-Ming Wang injury.
I hope, however, that the Joba we have seen much of this season isn't the best Joba we are going to get -- whatever role he is in. The Yankees need more than what they have been getting.
Here are a couple of other stories making news around the Yankee Universe.
- Phil Hughes won't join the rotation. He's become too valuable to the 2009 Yankees in the bullpen, said Girardi.
"I can say one thing, I don’t see us taking him out of that role right now. He’s probably less built up than anyone that we have so he will probably not be one of our options. … I see him staying in the bullpen." Hughes, down the road, is he still a starter? "I still believe that he is a starter. You’ll see a lot of young pitchers that come up and have success in the bullpen and then the move them over to the rotation because on any given day you’re not asking too much from them in a sense.
I think his stuff right now plays out well in both, but I think he’s been really, really good in the bullpen and has been really helpful to us, and that’s another reason that we might keep him there for a while. And the other thing is he’s not built up, and it’s tough to build them up here. You would have to send him down for a while and we’re not comfortable doing that right now with the way he’s throwing the baseball."
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Comments
I mean this respectfully
to both Joba and to this blog/forum.
I hope I don’t get kicked off for saying this, any of it, I’m not trying to be a jerk.
OK well Joba is afraid to pitch in the new Yankee Stadium because of all the home runs. That’s part of the problem. But… okay, how do I out this…
I saw something somewhere, maybe on Yankeeography, about how Marian Rivera was being groomed to be a starter. Then one day someone in the Yankee organization heard him popping the catcher’s glove with far superior fastballs to what he had been throwing in-game. When asked why he didn’t pitch like that normally, Mariano said that to throw like that, he could only last an inning or two, not 5 or 7 innings.
It seems sort of obvious that’s the other half of the issue.
And if Mariano had stayed a starter, nobody would be talking about him getting into the Hall of Fame.
So the issue is NOT do we want 70 innings of Joba in relief or 150 innings of Joba starting. It’s do we want 70 innings of lights out relief or 150 innings of 4 era? Your own poll (now closed) shows that the public’s imagination is captured by Joba the reliever, not Joba the starter. When he was a reliever, I could walk into Dunkin Donuts and say hi to a life-size cutout of Joba, but those days are gone.
Maybe working with stats and numbers it may actually make sense to have Joba be a typical rookie fifth starter but in terms of legend and cultural impact, he’s gone from the picture.
In case I’m banned now, I’d like to thank you guys for many hours of entertaining reading, and I’ll still lurk here to see your opinions. I apologize if mine proves annoying, I’m only telling it as I see it and I acknowledge I don’t comprehend the numbers-crunching, only the cultural aspect..
by 209209 on Jul 6, 2009 9:03 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
lol
I hope Ed doesn’t ban you. Actually if the Yankees get trounced by the Jays today I hope he bans himself from the new stadium.
But you can’t compare Mariano to Joba. MO was not very good at all when he was a starter, Joba at least has shown flashes. Plus MO was 2 years older (and MO was in the organization since he was 19).
You have to give him his chances. That he showed what he can do as a reliever means that if as a starter he fails, that the Yankees could move him right out to the pen, no problem.
MO has ample time in the minors before getting his shot in 95 to show if he was a starter. He wasn’t.
I know Yankee fans are impatient, and even less patient given his brief work as a reliver, but you have to give a 23 y/o starter his chances to show that before we declare him a failed starter.
When he’s pitched 2-3 years and is still very inconsistent, then the idea would be valid.
He’s inconsistent, but there are many stories of players like him around the league. From David Price, who had more success than Joba. To Brandon Morrow, a Top 5 pick who threw 100MPH and dominated like Joba in the pen, but Seattle realizes (just like the Yankees) that a young kid with his stuff deserves the shot to show if they are the next Verlander rather than the next Papelbon.
As for right now, we’ll have to deal with Phil Hughes in the pen.
by FreeBradshaw on Jul 6, 2009 9:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Banning myself
I might have to. BTW, as for Joba I got back to this. He didn’t throw with dominant velocity last September as a reliever, either. I just don’t think it’s that simple.
by Ed Valentine on Jul 6, 2009 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It could be as simple
as that arm trouble that caused him to miss August last year still affecting him.
The Yankees screwing up Wang’s rehab could lead one to believe that they screwed up Joba’s too.
by FreeBradshaw on Jul 6, 2009 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i'll take the 150 innings of 4 era.
worth a lot more to an organization.
by tombradylikesdudes on Jul 6, 2009 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are not alone.
It’s not unreasonable to suggest that Joba is simply not cut out to be a starter. For all the talk about how 150 innings is better than 70, the fact of the matter is, Joba has never even thrown 120 innings at any level.
His history of arm trouble is worthy of concern, and his loss of velocity since he’s become a starter is equally troublesome.
It’s entirely possible that the Yankees have taken a dynamite reliever and turned him into a mediocre bottom of the rotation starter. Will his velocity ever come back? For his sake, I should hope so, because nobody is swinging at that slider if they aren’t afraid of his fastball.
People who support the idea that Joba belongs in the bullpen will point to the “flashes of brilliance” he’s shown. I’ll be the one to point out that for every flash he shows, there are 3 or 4 duds.
He’s pitched to an ERA of 4.60 in his last 6 starts, and the only reason it’s not higher is that 5 of yesterday’s runs were unearned. Of course it’s not Cody Ransom’s fault that after his error Joba got destroyed and nobody who watched the game could tell me he pitched well even before that.
But it doesn’t matter. The Yankees are hell-bent on proving themselves right about Joba, even at the expense of his effectiveness and arm strength. It’s only a matter of time until he hits the DL with a tired arm or another issue.
by New York Sports Jerk on Jul 6, 2009 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You can stay
Dude, make whatever argument/case you want. Just do it respectfully, w/facts and w/out ripping other people. You did that, and that’s all we can ask. It wouldn’t be any fun if we always agreed.
by Ed Valentine on Jul 6, 2009 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it's frustrating to watch
He seems to have no trouble getting into pitcher’s counts, but then can’t put hitters away. It’s better than constantly falling behind, I guess, because when he re-discovers his out pitches he’ll be able to get deeper into games. The dip in his velocity is troubling, and I wonder how much of a factor that is. If hitters don’t need to worry about 95+, they can look for the slider. Plus, the fact that they’re close in velocity probably makes it easier to lay off the slider.
by long time listener on Jul 6, 2009 10:14 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
why is cody ransom still on this team
and why is Eric Hinske not playing when arod needs a rest (am i missing something/ like is he injured?)
by holycowboy on Jul 6, 2009 10:48 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
exactly
i thought thats part of the reason we got hinske.
LET'S GO BUFFALO!!!!!!
by BenAllen on Jul 6, 2009 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hinske would have played Sunday
but then Toronto switched from starting righty Scott Richmond to lefty Brett Cecil. With ARod getting a rest, Hinske may have played 3B instead of Ransom but not against a lefty. When you see a RHP you may may see HInske and he wasn’t acquired to replace Ransom. Cashman got him to replace Nady once he knew Nady couldn’t make it back. That’s what you’re missing.
by Peter Lacock on Jul 6, 2009 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
its all mental...
Joba can’t deal with the fact Hughes is lighting up the bullpen…
by Fluke on Jul 6, 2009 11:25 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I DONT UNDERSTAND CODY RANSOM
Before he got injured he was GOD AWFUL. Him going away was a blessing. Why did we even send Pena down to begin with, the guy has stellar defense and noone can argue that his offense is worse than Ransom. Why did we trade for Hinske if he is gonna ride the bench while Ransom picks up right where he left off?
Munson15
by Munson15 on Jul 6, 2009 11:27 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Joba
60 strikeouts in 65 innings
is not 10 per inning, its 8.3… his numbers as a reliever are being used to bolster the starter argument.
He is averaging just 7.87 strikeouts per nine innings, after being above 10 last season.
Thats half a strikeout difference between last years Joba as a starter numbers and this years. Not a shocker. Half and 2.13 are a little different, and if it was 8.3 as a starter, it would be around 11 out of the pen to get that 10 avg last year. Joba got more Ks in the pen than an as a starter. Maybe thats because hes young, learning his 2 additional pitches and how to pace himself…
by ryanwk628 on Jul 6, 2009 11:39 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
You're right
But, I didn’t argue starter vs. relief, and I am not going to. I just said he has to be better.
by Ed Valentine on Jul 6, 2009 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
im glad Tex will not be participating in the home run derby
that competition can mess up your swing big time
by Brian5517209 on Jul 6, 2009 12:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I never understood that
until I got into golf. I can usually hit it with a nice easy swing (the slice is another issues) with no major problems. Then I go to the range with my buddies and it turns into a longest drive competition… ending up with a sore back, hitch in my swing and getting kicked out for hitting balls over the fence.
by ryanwk628 on Jul 6, 2009 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Its his first year starting
Why is it that no one wants to give the young players time to learn and develop?
Joba has never been a starter at this level and one thing young starters have to learn is how to pitch on days they don’t have their best stuff and how to adjust on the fly. This is only learned by failing. If you look at any good pitcher they all go thru it. Price is going thru it in Tampa, Porcello in Detroit, Cain went thru it last year in San Francisco.
get off the ledge and let the YOUNG pitcher work thru the problems before you start trying to say he should be anywhere. We have done this so many times with young pitchers and in the past have given up on them to watch them succeed somewhere else.
Success in the minors is one thing but they have to learn how to succeed at the next level and ALL pitchers go through this.
chandler knight
by ae2cdk on Jul 6, 2009 1:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Growing pains
Yes, there are growing pains. But, I’m not concerned about that. I AM concerned about flat, hittable 91-mph stuff, about a fastball that has no life on it.
by Ed Valentine on Jul 6, 2009 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are correct
It’s not just the results I’m worried about, it’s how he’s getting them. His fastball has become ordinary, and he’s seemingly lost the willingness to challenge people with it.
He’s like Rick Vaughn in Major League II. He’s in love with his breaking stuff, and his fastball has turned into a piece of garbage.
The solution is simple: we’ll set Joba up with Michelle Burke, and hopefully he’ll get his edge back.
by New York Sports Jerk on Jul 6, 2009 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

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