How Joba can stay in the rotation for the rest of the season
Whatever Joba did over the All-Star break has worked wonders; after you consider his early-season struggles and the media speculation about his role on the team, he's just made his third consecutive "best start of the season". However, since this is the Yankees universe, there always has to be some sort of imminent catastrophe, even when the team is on a roll and has the best record in baseball.....
With recent Joba's recent success, it now appears unlikely that he can stay under his presumed innings limit of 160-170 while pitching every fifth day, and so we're left wondering whether the team will pull him from the rotation in the midst of a pennant race, or simply push the Joba rules aside for a run at the postseason and run the risk of injuring him.
I say neither of these has to happen.
An innings limit is a guide. It's supposed to remind managers to keep an eye on their young pitchers and not use them carelessly, like last September when the Giants were 17 games below .500 and 12 games out of first place, yet Bruce Bochy let a 24-year old TIm Lincecum throw 138 pitches in an utterly meangingless game, just so he could get the shutout. As a firm measure of pitcher usage, however, innings limits are inexact; we all know that eight innings spread out over two starts and 175 pitches require more work and put more stress on a pitcher's arm than eight innings in one start and 100 pitches. But this is the exact predicament the Yankees currently face - in Joba's four starts leading up the break, he threw 19 2/3 innings and 375 pitches, and in three starts since, 21 2/3 innings and 306 pitches. Which group of games do you think was more stressful on his arm?
Joba averaged 17.1 pitches per inning last season between starting and relieving, a high number, but not unusual for young power pitchers. We've assumed that he's limited to 160-170 innings this season, but if he averages fewer than 17.1 pitches per inning, as he has since the All-Star break, shouldn't he be able to pitch more innings? I think it would probably be more accurate to think of the Joba Rules as a pitch limit of 2,700 to 2,900 for the season rather than an innings limit.
If you look at it this way, Joba's thrown 1,864 pitches this season, meaning he's got another 1,000 to 1,100 left. If he pitched every fifth game for the remainder of the season, he'd make 12 more starts, and then (hopefully) another three in the postseason as the Yankees #4 starter. Realistically, though, Girardi will probably rest him once in late September if a playoff birth is wrapped up, and will probably look to find him another day off at some point between now and then. That means 13 more starts and 1,100 pitches. That's manageable. As it becomes more and more likely that the Yankees will make the postseason, he can begin to pull Joba at, say, 90 pitches if the game is out of hand, or treat one or two of his late-September starts as a 75-80 pitch tune-up for the playoffs.
There will be no need to start Sergio Mitre in Game 4 of the ALDS and no increased risk to Joba's health and durability. Joba can stay in the rotation for the rest of the season and the postseason.
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I likey
Good post my dude…now if someone in the offices will listen, we got ourselves a starter for the balance of 09, case closed
by ReggieARodJeter on Jul 30, 2009 11:07 AM EDT reply actions
Yea, I wish they were that smart, BUT
I’m not sure anyone is.
The idea of protecting young arms is pretty new. The research that was done was done in innings. The study could be done again in pitches. If the Yanks would give me a little grant I’d be so happy to do it. I might even take the grant by occupying empty premium seats.
No, I’m feeling Joba should go to the pen with a few starts in the tank and then strech out for the playoffs.
If I's known I was going to live so long, I'd have taken better care of myself. Casey
Good point
I guess we’ll see what hand the Yanks take in the next few days. They go with a reliever or 2 they will be preparing for Joba’s shorter starts to go along with Mitre.
DOn’t wanna tax the bullpen either (Can I say that I miss Tomko now?)
agreed
pitch count is far more accurate than inning count, which is inexact, to say the least.
but i do believe the Yankees are beyond anything as simple as ‘150 innings cap, period.’ Cash seems smart enough to me to realize it’s about pitches, not necessarily innings. but they say ‘innings’ to the MSM bc it’s easier to smallow and follow.
btw, Joba is 124th out of 258 in terms of Pitcher Abuse Points. as for a per-game basis, he’s one of the lowest in baseball. so we’ve that going for us, which is nice.
Pitcher Abuse Points,
or PAPs for short work like this: for every pitch between 101 and 110, a pitcher is assigned 1 PAP for each pitch throw, for every one between 111 and 120, there are 2 PAPs assigned. Between 121 and 130, 3 PAPs; 131 through 140 is 4 PAPs; 141 through 150 is 5 PAPs. For every pitch greater than 151 is 6 PAPs each. So if Joba would throw 120 pitches, he’d be given 30 PAPs. It’s calculated by each pitch thrown. According to Baseball Prospectus, the highest average PAP total per game was Randy Johnson when he was 34 with Houston, averaging 38 PAPs per start (PAPPS?).
by Leviticus6688 on Jul 31, 2009 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions
amazing post
but i would like to point out that we won’t need to start Mitre in game 4 of the ALDS since there won’t BE a game 4 ;D
Seriously...
Come on. Joba is actually pitching great as a starter lately and they want to take him out because of innings? That is a idiot move considering we are still looking for another starter. Dont you think?
by jobaroxthesox62 on Jul 31, 2009 4:16 PM EDT reply actions
Inning limits are stupid
It just means the better joba pitches, the less he will pitch…which makes no sense at all. Plus we didn’t get washburn or another starter so limiting Joba would mean killing our rotation. I say let joba pitch til end of the season then put him in the pen for the playoffs once we get there.
Well thought out
I like your argument that pitch count instead of innings pitched is the stat that should count.
Joba has been huge since the All Star break. I think that if he continues to be aggressive and economical with his pitches, there is no way we can take him out of the rotation.
Hopefully, Mitre will be a non issue at playoff time. He has been nothing but underwhelming in his three starts thus far. He can pull up a bar stool next to Veras and Tomko and watch the Yanks on tv.
Your scenario
of getting Joba as much rest as possible, while keeping him in the rotation, is a good one, 3460. I don’t see making the playoffs without him, and putting Hughes back in a starting role could seriously damage his arm this late in the season.
Joba is a big boy. Cashman needs to quit micro-managing and let him pitch. Some guys pitch better the more they throw. I think Joba is one of those guys.
"Character consists of what you do on the third and fourth tries."
James A. Michener
I like that
We don’t want Joba out of the rotation now, not with the way our rotation is shaped up and the lack of depth. And, don’t worry. Mitre wouldn’t start game four of the ALDS anyway. If we are in the longer series (which the team with the best record in the AL gets to choose), then we can use Sabathia and Burnett twice, and we wouldn’t even NEED a fourth starter. I’d much rather have that. But, in the regular season, Chamberlain belongs in the rotation. Right now, there is no way around it.
how to hurt a guy's arm
This innings limit thing is so stupid. What are you gonna do? Shut him down for all of September, than ask him to throw a 100-pitch start in the playoffs?!?!?!?!? Now that is how you hurt a guy’s arm. His body is used to throwing every five days. Keep him in that rhythm and he probably won’t get hurt. If he does, hey, that’s part of the game. Earl Weaver says: “The more you run, the stronger your legs get. The more you throw, the stronger your arm gets. I had nine pitchers, four starters.” Jim Palmer threw 1253 innings in 4 years from 1975 to 1979. That’s 313 per year! How much did this hurt him? Well, in the last year of those 4 his ERA was 2.46. Hey, if the man can throw, just let him freakin’ throw and don’t overthink it.
Yeah, the issues with his muscles not being able to keep up, they can. It’s with his rotator cuff and elbow.
Jim Palmer threw a lot of innings over four years and was fine during those four years. After 1978, though, he was no longer a consistent, above-average, healthy pitcher.
He was effective, but injured in 1979. From 1980 to 1982, he pitched more or less injury free but only managed an above average ERA once. Between 1983 and 1984, he pitched fewer than 100 innings and his career was over at age 38.
Granted, some of this could have been part of the natural aging process, but to suggest that pitching 1200+ innings in 4 years didn’t cause some damage is ridiculous.
another thing to consider
is delivery mechanics….
i think one thing that is certain is no delivery is injury proof… however, many scouts have said that Joba has one of the more violent deliveries… whether thats true or not… i dunno, im not a scout.
I think trust needs to be with the player too though. The best thing they can do facing playoffs is to keep someone like joba pitching as consistently as possible. Hold him to around 100 pitches, but try and keep him out there for at least 80s unless facing a meltdown.
And def keep hughes in the bullpen for this year, hes working well there, and we have little to gain, but a lot to lose trying to move him back to the rotation. Plenty of time in the offseason to transition hughes safely to the rotation
Mechanics matter
but Mark Prior supposedly had textbook mechanics and his career is probably over, and he’s not even 30 yet.
Some of it is luck, some of it is handling. Some rotator cuffs and ligaments can take more stress than others.

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