Thanks to Phil Hughes we apparently have a new argument
by Ed Valentine on Jul 24, 2009 9:15 AM EDT
in News
48 comments
Oh, boy! Here we go again. One save, and the calls for Phil Hughes to succeed Mariano Rivera as New York Yankee closer when Mo retires have started.
Here's Mark Feinsand of the Daily News
Asked if it felt different to get the final three outs - something virtually every pitcher that has ever closed a game for the first time has said - Hughes said it was "no different" than the other innings he’s pitched.
"Just one more inning than I’ve been used to," Hughes said. "I had a little cushion to work with, which was nice. I was just thinking about the next pitch and trying to execute it. It didn’t really sink in until Robbie threw me the ball."
It almost felt as though Hughes couldn’t understand why people were making such a big deal about the save. He had a three-run lead after all, so what was the big deal? He was even embarrassed to find the championship belt - given to the team’s player of the game - in his locker, believing it should have gone to CC Sabathia for his seven innings instead.
"It’s the same guys. They’re not bringing in superheroes in the ninth," Hughes said. "When there’s nobody on base, I knew I couldn’t give it up with one pitch. I was a little more relaxed and able to attack with my pitches."
Still, getting your first career save is usually something pitchers cherish. Hughes didn’t seem all that impressed, having simply done what he’s been doing for the past six weeks - getting hitters out.
"Everyone has different personalities," Joe Girardi said. "Everyone probably feels something inside but might show it in different ways. He’s been really good. He’s taken this role and really ran with it. He comes out with a lot of confidence and really good stuff every night."
And that’s my point. If Hughes isn’t the perfect guy to take over for Rivera when his contract expires after the 2010 season, I don’t know who is. I would take his even-keel approach over a fist-pumper any day.
Here is Mike Silva of NY Baseball Digest
Do the Yankees have a bullpen answer? It seems so. They may even have just stumbled onto their successor to the greatest closer of all time. Isn’t it finally nice to be able to talk about a young pitcher without hearing excuses about their development, innings limitations, and about what they could be? Phil Hughes is showing you how good he is out of the bullpen and how this just might be where he belongs.
Have the Yankees really stumbled into a successor for Mo? I don't know, but I think we have likely found a successor to the 'Joba to the bullpen' argument.
The Yankees see both Hughes and Chamberlain as long-term starters, and I don't see that changing unless one shows eventually he just can't handle the innings load of a starter.
But, someone has to close when Rivera eventually retires.
So, thanks Phil. Now you've gone and started a whole new argument. Way to go!
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This whole "successor to Mo" is
silly. He is signed through next season. If he continues pitching like he has, he will get a 1 or 2 year extension. By then we will know if Joba and Phil will be decent starters and they will be in the rotation of traded. Mariano was a setup man for only one season. When the Yanks realized what they had, they got rid of the not-so -lousy John Wettland pretty quickly in order to give Mo the closing job. Neither Phil nor Joba is going to be a setup man for the next 2 or 3 years. When Mo retires, the Yankees will do what they always do. They will sign the best free agent closer on the market to a ridiculous contract and that player will either be lights out, medicocre or just plain suck.
by garp on Jul 24, 2009 9:32 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I'll bet Mo retires after 2010
Just a hunch.
by New York Sports Jerk on Jul 24, 2009 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i have the same feeling
especially if we win a couple of WS’s in ‘09 and ’10…going out at the top
but we’ll see
by holycowboy on Jul 24, 2009 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
From your mouth to God's ears...
…I hope.
by New York Sports Jerk on Jul 24, 2009 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mo will not retire if he is still dominant. Just
a hunch. What’s he going to do? Stay home with the wife and kids? That certainly worked out for Donny Baseball.
by garp on Jul 24, 2009 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What a stupid thing to say
Because Mattingly’s family is a mess, that means Rivera’s is too?
Mariano is a deeply religious man, maybe he wants to spend his time with the Lord.
by New York Sports Jerk on Jul 24, 2009 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I second NYSJ’s comment that the two situations aren’t comparable. Also, at some point I do think he’d wonder what there is for him to accomplish. I’m hoping he stays on through 2011. If he pitches two more years he probably gets to 600 saves. He’s already a sure Hall of Famer. If he wins another WS or two (God willing), and makes another $20 million, at some point, what would he have left to prove? He’ll be over 40, maybe he’ll want to spend time at home doing his charity work.
by long time listener on Jul 24, 2009 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What does Mo have left to prove? That he is
still the greatest closer in MLB. He appears to enjoy what he is doing. The Mattingly comment was a joke. I continue to make jokes despite the fact that most Yankee fans are humorless because I really don’t care about that. The situations are not comparable because Mattingly was in decline and Mo is not. Had Donnie not been in decline he would not have left to spend more time with his family and the meth lab in his basement.
by garp on Jul 24, 2009 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i love the fact that its becoming a 6 inning came again
ok maybe 7 inning game
reminds me of the good old days
i still predict joba will be a closer one day..but like garp says, Mo is still around for a while and is still lights out, so no point in planning for a successor at this point
by holycowboy on Jul 24, 2009 9:38 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
I think you cross that bridge when you get to it. Find the best roles for these guys right now and use ’em. And yes, the fact that these are now becoming 6 and 7-inning games is awesome.
by Ed Valentine on Jul 24, 2009 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yup I totally agree
If this year has taught us anything it’s that a lot can happen in a year. I really didnt ever anticipate this happening to CMW. Like my mom always says, “one bad decision can RUIN YOUR LIFE.” (gotta love mothers’ unwavering commitment to melodrama)
maybe Wang’s was base running
As i see it, the no frills formula they got going on right now is bank. If it aint broke, etc etc. as Ive said previously, I think a starter is necessary, but beyond that, I’d rather just keep Hughes in the 8 and if he has to go 2, he’ll go 2. Who knows what the arms’ll look like by the time Mo’s gone. Maybe Pat Venditte is ready to come up, and we have the human starter-reliever hybrid.
by CrazyYankeeChick on Jul 24, 2009 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’d rather have this argument than an argument about why we never produce good prospects. I have a feeling it’s going to be harder to win this argument, especially with the people who were firmly in the Joba-to-the-bullpen camp. At least with Joba we could point to some success as a starter. Not so much with Hughes.
by long time listener on Jul 24, 2009 10:15 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Arguments
Yes, you are right on both counts. This is a better discussion than ‘why does our farm system suck?’ As for winning the argument, I don’t think there will ever be a winner. Just take a side, state your case and let it be.
by Ed Valentine on Jul 24, 2009 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pretty much, yeah
Some people in the Joba-to-the-bullpen camp aren’t looking at short-term results, we’re thinking longterm viability as a pitcher.
I would suggest that Joba and Hughes are actually direct opposites. Hughes was lacking confidence when he first came up, and now is gaining confidence because of his experience in the bullpen. This is a good sign for his future as a starter.
Joba came up and had immediate success, then when he moved to the rotation began to struggle and seems to be losing confidence. Maybe he gets it back, maybe he doesn’t.
by New York Sports Jerk on Jul 24, 2009 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The only way that there will be a winner is if they both go on to outstanding careers as starters. In 10 years, if the two of them have anchored rotations that were as good as the 90s Braves, and sprinkled in a couple of 20-win seasons and maybe a Cy Young Award or two, I doubt anyone is going to looking back and wishing that we made one or both of them relievers. But unless who ever we pick as closer has a career literally as good as Rivera’s, hard-core rotationists like me are always going to wonder what it would have been like if they’d been given their shot as a starter.
by long time listener on Jul 24, 2009 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I knew this was coming
It makes it even harder when Mo shows no definitive signs of slowing. He took some tough shots earlier in the year, but looking at him now its back to the automatic. I guess you just evaluate the need or the fit when the time comes.
Little league games that last 6 or 7—-Thats wutsup!
And under 3 hours all week long.WOW
by ReggieARodJeter on Jul 24, 2009 12:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I'll Do It
To put it all aside… I’ll close for the Yankees
by Gangsta Yanksta on Jul 24, 2009 2:03 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Don't forget...
Any talk about Hughes or Joba being Mo’s replacement in 2010 is missing a vital aspect. Sure it may be what some people think it would be great, but it disregards the fact that…Starters make more money!!! Lots more money!!! (Its MONEY, MONEY, MONEY, MONEY, MONEEEEEEEY. (Sing it).
I would imagine that Hughes has an agreement with the Yankees that he will be moved back to the starting rotation next year. Thus his great initial attitude about being moved to the pen. Regradless of how great he has been down in the pen, he is starter (…SV no big deal, CC deserved the Belt more).
Although Phil and Joba have done well in the pen, that is not where their heart is. Nor their future earning power.
I’d say Cashman and Girardi see next years, and many years to come, rotation will be CC, AJ, Joba, Hughes, and (?). Just think about that as our future….WOW!!!
Also, the offense and pen are doing great and thus no real need for knee jerk reaction at this point. Nothing on this front is going to happen until August at the earliest, if at all. Thats where Cashman’s head is…and its in the right place.
by 1yankeesfan on Jul 24, 2009 2:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Fuel to the fire
I just read somewhere that the last reliever (B4 Phil Hughes) to have 22-23 scoreless innings was………………….drumroll………………………….Mariano Rivera….interesting.
by ReggieARodJeter on Jul 24, 2009 2:10 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Of course
and why not say it? Hughes is doing the same thing Joba did so of course they say that about the Phranchise.
I don’t care if Phil doesn’t let up a run this whole season, he is not the successor to MO.
Its nice to speculate, but no frickin way. The Yankees should try to use whatever resource they can to find a true successor rather than a guy like Hughes who has shown potential to be a dominant starter.
This makes even less sense than Joba too.
by FreeBradshaw on Jul 24, 2009 2:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Nobody ever fills the shoes anyway
So you probably gotta start from scratch. I voted Joba on the post earlier,but I don’t think i truly believe that. Melancon was the guy they kept praising in the preseason media guides and whatnot, but I see him as ordinary until he proves otherwise. Maybe we let Mo pitch until his kids master his cutter.
by ReggieARodJeter on Jul 24, 2009 2:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Address the need when the time comes....
First….can the Yanks finish the season strong and maybe even win a world series? Worry about who will be the closer when the time comes. And when it does…MAYBE quality free agents for SP can fill that possible void and MAYBE joba and phil can work the 7th through 9th together….who knows?
Can’t people just be happy and watch some great baseball and enjoy it for even a minute?
If the Yanks wind up 2 years down the road with no one to close and with no offense that makes every game a grind…then maybe phil or joba close…..in the meantime…stock up on talent and cross that bridge later…..
by Ragnar808 on Jul 24, 2009 2:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
We're going to have this same debate
at the same time next year. So until then…
by BigSlim on Jul 24, 2009 2:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
and then it will kick in high gear
when Hughes goes back to the rotation and struggles a bit.
by FreeBradshaw on Jul 24, 2009 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why does it have to be Hughes or Joba
anyway? I know they’ve had success in the setup role to date.
But when I think about a setup man being groomed as a successor to closer, I think of guys who have electric stuff but aren’t expected to be starters in their career. Guys like Daniel Bard on the Pissants. Carlos Marmol on the Cubs is the true type of player I see for that.
Hughes, and Joba for that matter, are starters. They simply are helping or did help a team in need of dominant relief pitching at the time.
So why do they have to be that guy for their entire careers, or even a closer.
Why not a lesser prospect, one of these high risk high ceiling guys the Yankees always go after in drafts.
Why not Andrew Brackman? He still throws gas, but it seems he’ll never be a starter. So why not him? What about Dellin Betances?
I like this idea the Yankees have of placing their top pitching prospect in the pen to get work in against MLB hitters.
I just don’t understand why they must be relievers once they have success at that role.
by FreeBradshaw on Jul 24, 2009 3:10 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Why not Brackman?
Simply put, because he sucks.
I want my closer not to suck.
by New York Sports Jerk on Jul 24, 2009 4:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
eh...
I know 1/2 a season’s an eternity for you (especially one coming off TJ surgery, they should be 100% from the get go), and I also know he’s sucking in single A.
But he still sits at 94 MPH. He’s having trouble with mechanics, so maybe he never gets over it, and that’s why he can’t throw strikes.
As he gets his strength back over the next 2-3 seasons like most TJ surgery guys (2-3 years!! That’s an eternity!) he could regain his command. But Joba did just that coming off surgery after he was drafted.
Why not put him in the pen? If all the other guys lie Joba and Hughes work out, why not have a 6"10 former 1st round pick in the pen?
He’s actually rated the Yanks 3rd best prospect behind Montero and Jackson, so I highly doubt people who actually follow Brackman (and don’t simply bash the Yankees management blindly) think he “sucks”
by FreeBradshaw on Jul 24, 2009 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he was earlier this season
but he’s taken significant steps back
he’s down to throwing 89 mph fastballs instead of that high cheese that git him a ML contract
he’s stayed relatively healhty, which is a plus, but he’ll have to put up results next year or else
i would have to say Z-Mac is the third best Yankee prospect now, followed by Romine and Bleich :DDDD
by Brian5517209 on Jul 24, 2009 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's actually kind of sad
If he’s the Yankees 3rd best prospect, what does that say about their system?
And who the hell told Cashman to draft a kid who needed TJ surgery? I guess I’m just blindly bashing the general manager of a professional baseball team who drafted damaged goods.
I guess that’s better than drafting a guy with no intention of signing.
Yeah, i’m so blind I can’t see how awesome Cashman has been. Tell me more, Mr. Informed.
by New York Sports Jerk on Jul 24, 2009 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
Cashman did find success with Joba, so why not Brackman? Brackman was an identical draft pick to Joba, so why can’t he follow the same path?
I don’t like drafting someone who needs TJ surgery, but it happens all the time in the baseball draft. Tho usually it goes on in later rounds.
A guy his size is gonna take longer to regain his arm strength than a guy like Joba.
And the only reason I say he might be the Yanks heir to MO is cuz of the timeline that he probably will be with the team. He won’t be full strength probably till 2011, and hopefully by then guys like Hughes and Joba will be in the rotation.
So he could be the guy in the pen like Hughes and Joba, but that time there truly will be no spot for him in the rotation.
So, again, why not him? I just don’t understand how you say a kid with < 1 year of MLB experience coming off TJ surgery sucks already.
by FreeBradshaw on Jul 24, 2009 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I make snap judgements...
…it happens.
If I say Brackman sucks, it’s because I think he’s going to suck.
Plus, he went to NC State, which means he sucks AND he’s stupid.
by New York Sports Jerk on Jul 24, 2009 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yea i got that
“jerk” reactions…
And being a Terp fan I can see the hate for a rival. But what does that do for most of the Gints draft? You gonna hate Nicks, Sintim and Brown already?
by FreeBradshaw on Jul 24, 2009 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, I give them a chance...
…and I believe in Jerry Reese because he actually knows what he’s doing in the draft.
by New York Sports Jerk on Jul 25, 2009 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Full strength in 2011?
He had TJ surgery in August of 2007. I do not think it takes four years to get healthy. Last i checked it was 1-2 years. I think the problem with him is that he can not repeat his delivery
by yankeechaser on Jul 25, 2009 2:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Brackman
is far from our 3rd best prospect right now. it’s definitely ZMac.
good to see you’re writing him off a half season after TJS. i hope you take over the Red Sox org. one day.
by Travis G on Jul 24, 2009 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Me too...I'd make a lot more money
You get so sensitive. None of this matters for Brackman’s future, we’re just a bunch of idiots on the internet.
Our opinions couldn’t possibly matter less. What do you care if I think Brackman sucks?
by New York Sports Jerk on Jul 25, 2009 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no one really cares
id like to know why tho?
I just don’t understand how a guy who comes off TJ surgery and in 1/2 a season sucks. Especially when the only 2 guys I see picked behind him, Brett Cecil on the Jays and Eddie Kunz on the Mets, even have been in the bigs.
He still has nice upside (and much more than Kunz or Cecil), and may end up being like Joba and Hughes…that next shutdown reliever who people argue about as to what his future should be.
by FreeBradshaw on Jul 25, 2009 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Upside is a funny thing
You say Brackman has a tremendous upside, and may be correct about that.
I see a guy who was injured twice in college (one of which was an unrelated basketball injury) who needed to have major arm surgery before throwing one pitch in professional baseball.
His upside is definitely attractive, but in July 2009, he sucks. It’s silly to even begin thinking about his major league future because he’s miles away from that even becoming a reality.
I’d settle for him throwing a few pitches over the plate and going one calendar year without hurting himself.
by New York Sports Jerk on Jul 25, 2009 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh god
here we go again. i’ve completely stopped reading the MSM bc of their impatience and ‘knee-jerk’ reactions.
Mo Rivera was a failed starter. we need a 5th starter. Hughes has been a starter his entire career save for the last 24 innings. he’s excelling bc he’s a GOOD pitcher. good pitchers should be given every opportunity to be starters bc they pitch more innings.
the save is maybe the most overrated stat in baseball.
it’s just sickening that Hughes could be ‘demoted’ into that role this quickly by some. especially when Mo’s still got 1.5 years to go (at least).
by Travis G on Jul 24, 2009 5:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
its what the media does
they have nothing else to write about, so they start crap again.
They forget about Joba, cuz he was good. They go right past the winning streak, cuz that’s good. But then they try to start another feud over Phranshise’s future cuz he’s been dominant in a backup (or setup man…) role.
by FreeBradshaw on Jul 24, 2009 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
really
this 7 game streak has happened primarily bc of our starters. we haven’t allowed more than 4 runs in any game! THAT’S the main reason for this streak.
Phil Hughes is better than Mitre. he should be starting in his place (once he builds up his innings). btw, Mitre looks like he could be a decent reliever.
by Travis G on Jul 24, 2009 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes to Mitre as a POSSIBLE reliever
sinker ball pitchers take pressure off of the defense late in games.less flys and pure groundballs….something to think about and watch.
by ReggieARodJeter on Jul 25, 2009 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
hughes would make a great closer. he should succeed mo instead of going out and trading for a guy.
Schumer said: "Now the Giants aren’t just New York’s team, they’re America’s team."
"You forget about it whether it was 15-2 or 3-2. It's still a loss. It doesn't matter what the score was if we win tomorrow."... Derek Jeter.
by donnybaseball23 on Jul 24, 2009 9:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I would hope that the success Hughes has had as a reliever opens some eyes as to Joba’s growing pains as a starter. Hughes and Joba both have had repeated success as relievers but been very inconsistent starters. People who want Joba to the pen point to the disparity of his success in starter vs reliever, but this is further proof that this is the same for most pitchers. A starting pitcher has a much steeper learning curve than a reliever. Good starters for this reason are more valuable to a team once they are all growns up. Both players have been great as far as filling whatever role the team needs without complaint. Both, for the long term, are starting pitchers.
by Ozone on Jul 25, 2009 2:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
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