Recap: Another One Just Like the Other One
by jscape2000 on Jul 19, 2009 5:49 PM EDT
in Game Recap
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PrintThis wasn't the same Joba: 6.2IP on 107 pitches, 64% strikes, 3 hits and 3BB against 8Ks.
This was the same Hughes, though: 1IP, 1H, 2K, only 13 pitches and 10 of them were strikes.
The heart of the order provided just enough offense against tough luck loser Edwin Jackson. The Dynamic Duo hit solo homers to set the stage for Mo.
For those who were worried about the Yanks record against the American League contenders, this sweep should be a reminder of what a long season it really is. I bet they even manage to win one against Boston before the postseason starts.
Speaking of which, the Toronto Blue Jays are refusing to go quietly into the deadline, taking 2 of 3 up north. The Yankees start the new week a single game behind the Red Sox. That means the Yanks are playing .650 ball against any team not wearing a red B on the cap.
With things going well, what on earth are we going to talk about?
Start here: Phil + Mo = Victory.
Not quite as ground shaking as E=mc², but it might bring us a little closer to understanding the Yankee Universe.
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I guess we'll have to thank Joba for waiting till now to do this
cuz that all-star week would have been hella boring if we couldn’t say how bad he’s been.
This really doesn’t absolve much. He’s done this before, so its his next start or 2 where we’ll really start to see if he’s for real.
As is, that was a hell of a start. Once he started to trust himself and throw strikes, he was Joba circa 2007. Filthy, just downright filthy. And it wasn’t just one inning either. The 5th he battled through Swisher’s ignorance and then struck out Thames to end the inning.
Once he had that Joba scream, the 6th and the 2 outs in the 7th the guy was as good as I’ve ever seen him.
That’s his potential right here. Just to do what he did today, consistently. THAT is why you make him a starter.
What now?
When it seems like everybody jumps off the starter bandwagon and back into the pen he comes out with a pretty good start. The stats were good and most of all he allowed his team to stay in the game and earn the win. I think Girardi should of let him finish the inning. I understand it was lefty vs. lefty but nobody could disagree that he was catching fire. He could tell the batters he was throwing that slider but they could not hit it. But most important Joba and the Yankees picked up the win and gained ground.
by jobaroxthesox62 on Jul 19, 2009 6:48 PM EDT reply actions
the key was that
Joba commanded his pitches very well today. that slider was biting and the curveball was grazing the corners of the strike zone. his FB velocity was not amazing (avg. 93 MPH), but he seemed to ‘pump it up’ when he needed to.
and just like that, we’re a game behind Boston. that guy up in Canada’s pretty good.
The Key was that
Detroits offense is really bad. This was not a sign of the future of Joba people. Detroit offense is bad and they are not patient like the major players in the AL East. We are not going to know what we are going to get from Joba until he pitches against top competition not the teams that have no offense and swing at the first pitch that they see. We will not know what he is going to do until next week when he faces the Rays.
I still say that he belongs in the pen. He is not a starter.
Detroit is exactly middle of the pack
in terms of offensive output.. 15th out of 30 in run scored. I don’t think that qualifies as “really bad”. You gotta admit though that was a heck of a good start for a “reliever”.
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
by CasanovaWong on Jul 20, 2009 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions
There should never have been any question...
Joba needs to get starts under his belt. He needs to get experience. Can you imagine if he went back to RP and all of a sudden faltered…then it would be all about….“Oh, they are wrecking this kid’s head! First SP, then RP, then SP, then RP…”
JEEZ.
He’s a starter…he’s gonna be a starter….and only if he blows the WHOLE year, and maybe NEXT year, will we ever see Joba back as RP.
And while we’re at it…..don’t get too used to Phil as 7th and 8th shutdown guy. When Andy is gone next year, he’ll be back as RP no doubt about that. (Andy’s contract is up after this year…isn’t it?)
Didn't see the game...
…but it seems like Joba was pretty good today.
Let’s see what he does next time on regular rest.
by New York Sports Jerk on Jul 19, 2009 8:25 PM EDT reply actions
How long?
How long before the NY fans and media start calling for Hughes to fill the void in the starting rotation? I see ESPN has Mitre pencilled in for an upcoming start but Hughes is starting to look more and more like Phil Franchise and less like Phil Fluke with every appearance.
That said, I hope he stays in relief, at least for the remainder of the season. Too much fiddling with a good thing and we might find ourselves in trouble here.
by Drew York Yanks on Jul 19, 2009 8:49 PM EDT reply actions
HUGHES
I know PH is young so I don’t want to ruffle anyones feathers BUT he has such a different swagger to him as a set up man. With everything he has gone through..injuries and him being given a spot in the rotation last year, as of today he looks as though he really has it as a set up guy. Honestly, I haven’t really been impressed with him as a SP except when he pitches versus Texas. I hope that this year he remains where he is but next year I guess he will go back to a SP but what happens if he becomes the Joba of this year? I guess it remains to be seen with him and after today we will see w/Joba.
O…I really hope we don’t have to hear anything about Joba and his fist pumping. I believe it is a innate thing with him. It’s not like he was standing on the mound and said to himself “if I strike out Thames I’m going to do a cool fist pump”. Just let him show the emotion he wants. BTW, that wasn’t directed towards anyone on here.
If next season
Hughes becomes the Joba of this season there of course will be the same argument again. This time with Hughes especially if the yanks don’t find a guy like that for the pen again (odds are they won’t, unless of course another top SP is promoted to do it again in the setup role).
And again, it really won’t make too much sense cuz regardless of whether Hughes is close to as dominant as he was in the pen, Id rather have a guy like Hughes develop as a starter than see guys like Darrel Rasner or Sidney Ponson waste that spot as a starter.
I don’t think Phil will struggle as much as Joba returning to the rotation, but he will struggle a bit, just like he did earlier in the season. Then of course there will be complaints about how dominant he was in the pen.
by FreeBradshaw on Jul 20, 2009 7:32 AM EDT up reply actions
Joba's best start of the year
I was at the game yesterday, and while it was maybe only his 2nd or 3rd best start of the season, statistically, I think this was the most important given what’s been happening lately.
The first inning was shaky. He threw 23 pitches, allowing a walk and a hit, and it seemed like we were in for a long (short) day. He really bounced back though, pitching out of trouble after the single and two base error (official scored as a triple) by Nick Swisher doing his best gymnastics impersonation. By the 5th and 6th, he was really dialing it up, bringing the fastball as high as 97 and the slider into the high 80s. The crowd really started getting into it at that point. I would have liked to see him finish the 7th, too, but I understand why Girardi pulled him, as he was already at 105 pitches, and you want him to leave on a good note.
This is the Joba we thought we’d get going into the season, the high-energy, strikeout pitcher. I’m sure that he will still have some shaky starts going forward, as 23 year old pitchers tend to do, but this was a good reminder of what Joba is capable of, and why we need to keep letting him go out there every fifth day.
notoriously bad
big whoop,they beat a division leader from a notoriously poor division.When they beat Boston and Anaheim the teams that will make waves in the playoffs I will get excited and maybe just maybe get off Girardis back a little bit.But I still think with him in the dugout they will continue to give games away to them.Best case scenario the team stages a coo and policies itself or appoints Pena.With all that negative said,these are needed wins and it was nice to see Arod and Texeira carry the team.
by cashman bashman on Jul 20, 2009 11:14 AM EDT reply actions
Only becasue girardi handed it to them.
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
by CasanovaWong on Jul 20, 2009 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
don't underestimate the power of Joe G Travis
remember earlier this year when he kept flashing the “ground into double play” sign? And he told Chien Ming Wang that he’d buy him a beer for every game his ERA was in double digits. And he stole 5 MPH from Joba’s fastball just out of spite.
The Thing No One Mentions
What made the Dynasty Yankees stand out so much was the command that team had once the seventh inning came around. It is a ridiculously simple formula — you lock up the seventh, eigth and ninth inning of a game, and what you do is improve your starting pitching psychologically. The starter knows all he has to do is go 6 strong innings and it’ll be lights out from then on — which can logically only make your starters BETTER. The same rule may even apply to the offense, who might walk into the game thinking, “ok, let’s have a lead by the time the sixth inning ends.” It worked four out of five years. I remember.
That is my reasoning behind having Joba pitch the 8th, which would not only serve to fulfill the scenarios described above, but mentally train him to be the next Yankee closer whenever it is Mo desides to hang ‘em up (which is inevitable, people). At the rate we’re going with Chamberlain, the day I see him pitch into the eighth inning is the day I’ll probably go and buy a lottery ticket, just in case.
It just seems like the Yanks took the long way to get to the position they’re at now because they refused to admit that Joba was LIGHTS OUT as a reliever and mediocre as a starter. I just hope we aren’t torturing ourselves to death here, only to find out in two years that having him pitch out of the bullpen and then makign the transition to the ninth was the better alternative.
So by that logic.....
where was the effective pitching from Sidney Ponson and Darrel Rasner and whatever other crappy starters the Yankees have had to plug in in the last few years when Joba was in the pen?
All you have to do is throw “6 solid innings”, but the fact is, crappy pitchers aren’t going to consistently throw 6 solid innings, which is why being a starter is that hard.
I don’t care if your bridge to Mariano is Goose Gossage, Trevor Hoffman, and Rollie Fingers, if you don’t have talent in your rotation, those guys never get to come in.
There is a reason that all of the best talented arms at least attempt to become starting pitchers……its harder and more valuable to a team.
Basically, my point is, you can’t protect a lead you don’t have, and asking for your bullpen to give you at least 3-4 innings a night will cause any relief group to wear down and become increasingly less effective. Hughes has been a real plus in the pen, but that’s not surprising, he has great talent, and is now attempting a much easier task. In the long run, all of the best arms should have the opportunity to start.
Clearly, but --
It just seems that the Yankees arrived at their current position — Joba the starter and Hughes the reliever — by accidental default. It is obvious that Hughes is excelling in his new role, but is Joba really excelling in his?
Bottom line is this — both pitchers are excellent relievers, and both pitchers are mediocre starters.
I remember watching Hughes pitch outstanding games in Arlington against a hard-hitting Rangers team this year (Memorial Day, I believe) and eight shut-out innings in Comerica against the Tigers.
I still don’t know what we have with Joba. The pitch count thing is a joke; the babying is ridiculous. If we’re going to have him start — fine; Hughes is taking care of stuff out of the pen. But let’s give him some responsibility and stop looking at 6.2 IP at home as an major improvement.
Your reasoning is flawed
cuz while you like to lock up the 7th-9th, what do you do about the 1st to 6th?
You’d rather have Sidney Ponson start and Joba finish that likely 9-8 affair? I don’t like those games.
You develop your young starters so you don’t have to pay guys like CC and AJ.
And I wouldn’t look away at this last outing, 6.2 innings of pretty much lights out ball? No, that was a very well pitched game.
Of course we’ll be looking at his next start to see how he follows a game where he threw 100+ pitches and on normal rest.
ANd while both may be mediocre starters right now, we aren’t talking about 32 year old veterans with no potential.
What Joba, and Hughes in your cited 2 games, have shown is their potential to be very good starters.
by FreeBradshaw on Jul 20, 2009 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions
and what you fail to mention about those dynasty years
is that guys like Mike Stanton and Jeff Nelson were old guys.
Rivera and Wetteland OK, but we don’t need a closer right now, cuz Rivera isn’t going anywhere for the foreseeable future.
Im sure MO, being the class act that he is, will let the yanks know before he plans to hang em up giving the Yanks time to at least sign someone or develop a RP.
by FreeBradshaw on Jul 20, 2009 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions
If this was the best that Joba and Hughes would ever be
in the rotation, then you would be correct.
However, they are both very young. They are able to excel in the bullpen because you don’t really need “the art of pitching” to just blow fastballs by hitters who will see you once when you are at your freshest in the 8th inning.
They will both improve in the rotation once they learn how to mix pitches, pitch to contact, and give greater depth in games.
For gods sake give the guys more than a year before you label them as “mediocre” starters. It’s been well documented on this site that many current aces were just as “mediocre” when they first went to the rotation.
Well said, gentlemen
I give you guys credit for your break down. It definitely makes sense to have this team develop some arms, rather than continue the “superstar-seeking” we’ve been trying for years passed.
Also, it is clearly a valid point that we should wait longer for these young guys to develop and show us their true potential. I just hope Joba doesn’t hit his stride at the same time that CC and AJ downgrade to “mediocre” a few years from now.
Either way, as we’ve said above, our current set-up is a good one, whatever our view is on the bullpen situation. Let’s see where it gets us.
and sorry to keep going
but the bullpen situation is one you can piece together.
It wasn’t but a season ago where Jose Veras and Edwar Ramirez looked like valuable pieces. Now we have Acey and Hughes and Coke as out main guys.
Hughes and possibly Acey may be rotation bound next season, maybe Wang goes to the pen if he can’t recover?
And maybe the Yanks call up one of their top prospects next season? The whole idea of calling up guys like Hughes and Joba, and maybe in the future Betances, or Nova, or maybe even Brackman ( he DOES throw hard…) could be a nice pen piece?
by FreeBradshaw on Jul 20, 2009 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions
let's get something clear
Mike Stanton’s ERA with the Yanks:
’97: 2.56
98: 5.47
99: 4.33
2000: 4.10
01: 2.58
02: 3.00
2 great years, 1 good year, 2 mediocre years and 1 awful.
Nelson:
96: 4.36
97: 2.86
98: 3.79
99: 4.15
2000: 2.45
2 very good years and 3 mediocre years.
now obviously ERA is not the best way to measure relievers, but they were hardly the lights-out guys people remember them as.
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