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Cashman Kills Trade Talk

Not with the Blue Jays, but with the fans.

According to the Times:

I know people still like to debate it. Debate all they want, I think [not trading for Santana] was the smart and right move, and we’re stronger than we would have been with one player and the money attached to the player without all the extra players we have now.

Cashman confirms the pieces for Santana would have been Melky Cabrera, Phil Hughes, and Jeff Marquez.  

Two are on the major league roster, and Marquez was traded with Wilson Betemit for Nick Swisher.

Cashman says that the payroll is too high already.  Halladay costs about $7M for the rest of the season.

On the other hand, Cash doesn't think the waiver wire will be a problem to use because teams don't have the cash available to risk taking on a player in a block attempt.

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Melky, Phil and Marquez for Johan?

and of course probably no CC?

Melky’s useful, Marquez was trade bait for Swisher who’s been excellent cuz he wasn’t expected to start.

And Phil still looks like a frontline starter, even as he is a dominant reliever.

Agree with Cash here. Plus even tho CC and Johan are roughly the same age, CC just doesn’t seem to have any arm trouble at all, while Johan has a questionable injury even as he still pitches (plus, he hasn’t gone past 7 innings once this season)

by FreeBradshaw on Jul 19, 2009 12:00 PM EDT reply actions  

Well

it’s easier to get outs in the NL, but a lot of times pitchers are taken out for pinch hitters before they are really “done.” So I’d say it’s pretty much a wash.

by Lord Duggan on Jul 19, 2009 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

I guess that's true

its also probably Jerry Manuel’s not know what to do and also the fact the Mets haven’t had the lead much when he pitches.

Still, you’d think the guy would go into the 8th and get a few outs at least once. Guys like Peavy Oswalt and Haren play on shitty teams too and they’ve done all more than a few times.

There’s been talk that he has arm trouble, and that he can’t get at least a few outs in the 8th might lead to that. I’ve never thought of him as a high pitch per AB guy either…..

As it turns out tho, I just think that in a few years time we’ll look back on not trading for Johan vs signing CC, keeping Phranchise and Melky, as an extremely good decision.

Plus if all else fails, Jake Peavy is a FA this offseason…….???

by FreeBradshaw on Jul 19, 2009 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

no...

I don’t know how, but I got him mixed up with Cliff Lee, tho Lee even has an option.

Although I could have swore I saw an article that said he has an early opt out thing thing, but maybe I was drunk or something…..

So just disregard that brain fart.

by FreeBradshaw on Jul 19, 2009 8:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

i thought someone might bring this up

2009 AL starter avg.: 5.8 ip/start
NL: 5.9/start

so yes, it is virtually the same, but the stress of AL lineups is far higher and i doubt Santana would be as effective in the AL right now.

by Travis G on Jul 19, 2009 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

I definitely agree with Cashman on this one

It just rarely, and I mean RARELY, makes sense to me to sell the farm for one player. To me a great player that can only affect the game every fifth day is not worth the price these teams ask for them.

Look at the potential that Hughes has. Yah I know it is only potential and not proven yet, but still I would rather raise him up and see him getting 15 to 20 wins a season 3 or 4 yrs from now in the Bronx, then somewhere else, not to mention the inpact that the other traded players are having else where. Mean while the guy we traded him for is wearing out and not amounting to much of anything any more. I just don’t see it worth our while to raise these guys up and then ship them out.

We didn’t win all those championships in the ‘90s with just outside players. There was a large contingent of homegrown personnel in there too. When they get to grow up together in the minors and then come along and play together in the bigs then they are a group, a team in the true meaning of the word, rather then just a collection of players that have shown that they are great players else where, but don’t seem to bond into that team that can win it all, because they are truly dedicated to each other.

Don’t get me wrong I love the players that we have, but I can’t help and think about the role players that we had in the 90’s and how dominant as a team that they were. I know that some were brought in by FA, but they weren’t the “giants” of the game that it seems that the organization has tried to bring in for the last 10 yrs. Players like O’Neil, Tino, or Scott Brosius, and others.

I say we get back to bringing in the guys that are good solid players and have heart. Once again I don’t say this to knock any of the players that we have right now, I more say this to knock the organization for trying to put together an All Star team every year, when it takes so much more then just numbers to win it all

by syllk on Jul 19, 2009 1:32 PM EDT reply actions  

For record, I'm against a trade for Halladay unless Cashman negotiates a steal.

As for the once-every-five-days argument, I think that, at least this season, reasonable people agree that the Yankees are certainly a good enough team to make it to the postseason without Halladay. The real argument for bringing him to the Bronx is that it’s much easier to have faith in a Halladay-Sabathia-Burnett postseason trio than a Sabathia-Burnett-Pettitte trio (at least this season).

But here’s where I have a problem with your post: the idea that we should recruit “good, solid players who have heart” over superstars. The problem here is that superstars by definition have to be good, solid players, otherwise they don’t reach superstar status. In fact, they have to be better than just good and solid. I for one would rather have the player who’s better than good and solid than the player who’s just good and solid.

Which brings us to the “heart” issue. Aside from being an unquantifiable, mystical property, “heart” is something that apparently superstars cannot have. Why not? Does Mark Teixeira not have heart? Johnny Damon was described as having loads of heart while he was in Boston, but that somehow goes away now that he’s in New York? Do Melky, Brett, and Robbie not have heart? Do Cervelli and Pena not have heart? What about Nick Swisher and Eric Hinske? Xavier Nady? Do Jorge and Jeter not have heart? How about Sabathia, Burnett, Andy, Mariano, Hughes, Pettitte, and Joba?

Saying that they don’t have heart is BS. This is a group of guys that competes hard, gets along great together, and is intent on bringing back a championship to New York. All of these guys have heart. All of these guys are competitors. And what’s more, most of those guys aren’t superstars.

So there’s really only one elephant in the room who’s said to not have heart, and that’s Alex Rodriguez, whose persona can be both uncharismatic and off-putting. This would certainly not be an issue at all if he weren’t (a) so highly paid and (b) hitting cleanup for the New York Yankees. But as it is, listen to what guys like Cone and O’Neill and other guys who are in the clubhouse say about A-Rod; it seems like once every season somebody comes out and says that A-Rod is trying too hard, putting too much pressure on himself to come up big for his team. He’s trying to prove himself to this city.

Now let’s look at some comparisons: out of all of the third basemen in the league, which would you rather have? Which has more “heart” and thus would “want it more” than A-Rod? Mike Lowell? Perhaps; he has consistently good numbers and defense at third, but remember that the Red Sox were willing to trade him away in a heartbeat to sign Mark Teixeira. Evan Longoria? Sure, but be was still a minor-leaguer back when the Yankees traded for A-Rod.

The “heart” issue is silly at best and intentionally malicious at worst. It’s a ploy used by those who can’t find another reason why their team is better than the Yankees, and it’s closely related to and almost as intellectually bankrupt as the notion that the Yankees can somehow “buy” a championship.

by dzawaki on Jul 19, 2009 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

You obviously missed some things that I said.

For one I said I love this squad, but it is hard to throw together an allstar cast and just expect them to meld instantaneously.

For another thing “Do Melky, Brett, and Robbie not have heart? Do Cervelli and Pena not have heart?” these guys are all home grown, another thing I was touting, we need to have home grown guys and stop selling them away for the latest fad. (This obviously goes for people like Jorge, Jeter, Mo, Andy, Hughes, and Joba too) I guess you didn’t read my post to carefully to just jump on me like that. Also I never said they didn’t have heart. I don’t know where you get that from my post.

All I am saying is that we won all those championships last decade with a few stars, a few role players, and a few home grown talent. That was something special back in the 90’s. The organization tried to reinvent the magic by bringing in the latest big name FA and expecting him to meld right in.

I think next time you want to jump on someone read what they said instead of putting words in their mouth. Once again I never said that this group of guys didn’t have heart. Maybe I should have stated that directly, but I thought that saying “Don’t get me wrong I love the players that we have” was enough to get that point across.

My main point is that the organization tried to manufacture what happened in the 90’s by hiring the latest guns out there, and guess what . . . it didn’t work. This group of guys actually does have heart and that can be seen even in this weekend sweep of Detroit. They stuck in there, didn’t give up, and the guys that are paid to get the big hits, got the big hits.

Oh and as to “The "heart" issue is silly at best and intentionally malicious at worst. It’s a ploy used by those who can’t find another reason why their team is better than the Yankees,” been a Yankees fan all my life, loved em through the 80’s when Steinbrenner tried to destroy them. Loved them in the early 90’s when nothing happened for them then. Then there was the strike season that I thought was going to be the year, but it wasn’t. I’m not some Yankee hater, I love my Yankees and want them to win it all every year.

I tell you what though, as far as "the “heart” issue being silly at best" I can’t say I’ve seen too many people that had the kind of heart that O’Neil brought to the club house every single day. I say that the heart issue is real, it may not be some number crunched that you can hold on a piece of paper, but is the difference sometimes between Jeter getting to that relay thrown from O’Neil to throw to home to preserve a 1-0 lead to win against the A’s. Yah heart is real and YAH this team does have it.

by syllk on Jul 19, 2009 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nah, man, I'm sorry.

I didn’t mean that comment as a dig at you, I was more interested in talking about the folks out there who do bring up the “heart” thing over and over again, particularly the folks who keep calling the Red Sox “gritty.” Your comment wasn’t something I was arguing with as much as a springboard onto another subject. Sorry if it came across as argumentative.

by dzawaki on Jul 20, 2009 1:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

pitching wins titles

Even if that trade goes down the yankees still go after CC,just not AJ.I will take Johan.In need of a center fielder they make a play for Hunter or Rowand and the sox wanted Swisher gone so they just take another player so what you have lost is hughes who cannot contribute on Santanas level yet or maybe ever.Every team in recent memory to win the series did it with pitching first then timely hitting not 200 plus million guys who live on bullpen pitchers.Who knows they are the Yankees and still might have added AJ and forgot about pettite.Quit sticking up for this guy he has had his chance and no titles.Johan CC 1-2 is awesome and do not fool yourself better then CC Aj and either center fielder is a wash defensively and an upgrade offensively.Take your pick right now even money,Hughes or Santana,a bullpen guy possibly starter or a proven number 1.Ive been hearing this arm stuff for 5 yrs now and he proves you wrong every yr.

by cashman bashman on Jul 20, 2009 11:29 AM EDT reply actions  

quit bashing cashman

for no reason.

If the Yankees did spend $300 mill total on 2 pitchers, you think they get Tex? We’d have Swisher at 1st right now.

And the point is NOT taking your pick right now, that’s just the simple minded approach that leads to the Yankees spending $200 million on a ballclub.

Its about the future. Hughes may have another 10+ yeards of starting, while Santana may have another 5 (MAYBE). Does Hughes become as good as Santana? WHo knows, maybe. But that is really not the point. I’ll take 10+ more years of an effective starter with the potential to be great over an elite pitcher who costs $150 million who may or may not have arm trouble, although he’s still pitching at an elite level.

And paragraphs and spaces after your periods are good things.

by FreeBradshaw on Jul 20, 2009 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

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