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The Evil Empire's New Clothes: The Joba Debate (No, not that one. A different one.)

Joba the Huh?

Joba the Huh?

While my participation in fantasy sports was born sometime in the last decade, in retrospect I think I’ve been subscribing to the concept and principles of fantasy as early as age 10.

Once a year. November 1. The Candy Draft.

The day after Halloween, my sisters and I would convene to build our fantasy sugar rosters, and being the oldest and most ridiculous, I took it too seriously. I’d manage to deal my Necco wafers for Snickers, Raisonettes for Peanut Butter Cups.

And my first round pick, the Carl Crawford of junk food, was always my KitKats. There was nothing I could be offered in exchange for them.

My sisters, being younger and normal, would commence eating their candy as soon as they could, but I wanted to keep trade talks alive for days, sometimes weeks. The result of this? I held onto my KitKats for so long and refused to move them, to the point where they were either melted or covered in stale powder.

Then they were about as useful to me as Necco wafers.

With the trade deadline coming up, hypotheticals over how far would you go and how much would you sacrifice, have blanketed the Yankee universe—a thick surround-sound of murmured accord and indignant disapprovals.

After weeks of observing it, I’m no more enlightened than I was before about why in God’s name is Joba seen as the KitKats of MLB, the immoveable keeper resolutely insulated from every budding trade theory. They may as well be placed in one of those children's divider plates.

Star-divide

Divisionjoba_medium

Ironically, the Yankees’ mentality seems to mimic that of a gourmet chef making risotto, terrified of letting it sit still for a second for fear of it crusting and becoming ruined. They’ve moved the young pitcher around so much, it’s amazing he hasn’t developed some kind of bipolar disorder.

 

The idea of trading Joba makes everyone shudder. WHY? Why do you want him so badly? While admittedly stunning back in the good old days of setup relief, he’s essentially useless as a starter and may as well be Esteban Loiaza at this point.


New York Sports Jerk does a great job of boiling down the abortive plights of poor Joba, and I’m struggling to see how this macabre laundry list of failures is categorically ignored when the topic of trade comes up.

The standard argument used by people who have dug in on that side of the Joba debate is that you'd rather have him throw 200 innings than the 80 he'd get out of the bullpen.

Of course, it's impossible to get to 200 innings if you can't get through the fifth half the time, but why cloud the issue with factual matters like that?

Let's take a look at the numbers from Joba's last 7 starts:


35.2 IP (avg. of just over 5 IP per start)
47 hits
27 runs (20 earned)
5.05 ERA
1.77 WHIP


During that period, batters are hitting .311 against him, with an OPS of .861.

For a frame of reference, there are only 28 hitters in the American League with an OPS of .861 or higher, and only 26 players in all of baseball with an average of at least .311. In other words, Joba is turning every hitter he faces into one of the best players in the league.

The Joba Debate has been going on for more than a year, and given the current circumstances, the opposing sides should no longer be bullpen vs starter, but rather healthy vs hurt.

And anyone who looks at Joba’s pitching cannot in good conscience have the audacity to claim this guy’s arm isn’t in trouble. He went from have a ruthless fastball-slider combo, to having to work another 2 pitches into his arsenal. His fastball is 10 runs below average from last year. A slider that was so effective that connecting with it was like trying to drive a nail into a tomato seed, is now met with ease and comfort. Batters face him like they're looking at long-division quiz they failed in third grade, and now get a good chuckle over how unconquerable it used to seem.

Throwing overhand is against the body’s natural movement, which makes time off crucial for pitchers. The wind-up is complex, stressful, and violent, and unless a pitcher’s muscular composition is stable enough to prevent subluxation, the risk of strains is going to balloon with every start.

A study done by sports medicine researchers at Washington University found that professional pitchers have significantly decreased range of motion in their throwing elbows:

The researchers reported on a study of 33 professional baseball pitchers in the October issue of the American Journal of Sports Medicine. Trainers and team doctors measured the pitchers' ability to bend, straighten and rotate their elbows and found that range of motion in the dominant elbow was limited when compared to the other arm.

Pitchers get hurt if they sneeze too bruskly. Now all of a sudden the unassailable dilution in Joba's arsenal is irrelevant and an aggravating underlying injury is preposterous? History doesn't offer us a whole lot in terms of evidentiary pool for relievers-starters, and a good reason for this may be the expedited exit from baseball's radar not long after this move. Take, for example, the drop-offs of these players after they put their relief life on the shelf: (from Baseball-Reference.com)

Brett Myers

Brett_myers_medium

Craig Lefferts

Lefferts_medium

Danny Graves

Graves_medium

Miguel Batista

Batista_medium
Isn’t it possible that despite a college career as a starter, that Joba’s muscles may have taken a hit when his routine was abruptly altered? And isn’t it also possible that the Yankees have done some investigation of their own into this possibility?

And if they did discover something was amiss with his arm or shoulder, wouldn’t is stand to reason that such information wouldn’t be the type of thing they’d want public right around the trade deadline? I mean, hell, every fan is apparently convinced he’s priceless and the roster would be devastated without him, DESPITE the fact he hasn’t done a single worthwhile thing for the team in about 122 years. MAYBE this same faith and enduring wait-and-see attitude prevails in the league, as well, and is just as exploitable as Ks are leveragable.

Of course, it’s natural to suffer a degree of transitional wear and tear when moved from the pen to the rotation. No one expected his velocity to stay up, but we DID expect his value to stay put. After all, wasn’t that the whole reason he became a starter in the first place? Because he’d be more of an asset to the team this way rather than limiting his dominant stuff to only 1 inning?

Yeah. He’s been indispensable. Without him, our relievers and their ever-amorphous caliber of talent would never see the light of the fifth inning.

Bill James, the master of all statistical significance himself, said:

"IT’S NECESSARY TO LIMIT THE RELIEF PITCHER’S ROLE, TO PREVENT RELIEVERS FROM BEING DESTROYED BY OVERWORK."

"A HUNDRED RUNS SAVED BY A RELIEF ACE HAVE SUBSTANTIALLY MORE IMPACT THAN 100 RUNS SAVED BY A STARTING PITCHER, IN ALL CASES, EVEN IF THE RELIEVER’S JOB IS JUST TO COME IN AND PITCH WHEN THE STARTER GETS KNOCKED OUT."

So continue to argue that he was a starter in college. That he’s young. That we had to expect a bit of a learning curve. That we shouldn’t automatically abandon someone who was brilliant for us just a year ago. That he's not really all that bad for a first year starter.. (cough..Ricky Romero...cough)

But…why?

Why are we grasping onto the Joba-is-good myth like it’s our lucky hat being worn in a convertible going 80 on the thruway? I can almost get on board with why the hat would be worn in the first place, but once you realize the liability involved, why not either put the top up or take off the hat?

And why can't Wang get in on this de facto no-trade invincibility? I don't need to go into the amount of tangible damage Wang's forced use has inflicted upon the Yanks and their record. He was, indeed, amazing at at time, but it's unreasonable to expect this brilliance to be unequivocally restored. The only thing the Yankees can do is contain the fire by best determining both pitchers' realistic possibilities of recovery.

Why don’t we want to trade him? What is he bringing to the rotation that can’t be achieved by letting Swisher go five innings instead? Joba's not the last young pitcher to come along, and with Phil Hughes/Alfredo Aceves demonstrating discernibly developing power in their respective roles, relinquishing Joba isn't going to hurt the Yanks' young pitching pool by a long shot. If anything, it strengthens it. Just imagine how much more formidable they become with a reliable starter ahead of them that can go beyond 5 innings. 

The Yankees’ former ace-turned-joker is hurt. In basest terms, the only thing Joba has working for him--because it sure as hell isn't his fastball--is his youth and his past. Neither asset is compelling or absolute enough to grant him the kind of trade immunity that's currently being heaped on him in droves. And if some other team wants to tackle the gamble of whether he’ll rebound like Wang or like A-Rod, let them have it.

Joba Chamberlain, unfortunately, is reaching stale KitKat status. Deal him for Twizzlers. Pending a "Go-Go-Gadget, velocity!" turnaround within the next month, Joba marinates in the fan's worst fear, that indeed, he is simply damaged goods.

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I'm sold

Let’s give up on a guy after seven bad starts. In fact, as soon as a prospect has any trouble whatsoever in the big leagues, let’s trade him ASAP for someone over 30. My only regret is that we didn’t give up on that waste of space who OPSed .669 in 51 PAs back in 1995, back when he was 21. And to think, we made that guy our shortstop for the last 14 years, when we should have traded him for Dennis Martinez.

by long time listener on Jul 16, 2009 2:17 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

theres one difference between the SS and joba. (who ever that SS is cause i clearly have no idea who he is). but joba got hurt. lost velocity. hasnt been the same dominant person ppl were obsessed with.

by bforce3 on Jul 16, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

(it was a sarcastic comment) sorry for the confusion

by bforce3 on Jul 16, 2009 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

do we know that the velocity is gone and never coming back?

Just a few short weeks ago, he had the second-best ERA out of any Yankee pitcher ever through their first 25 starts. That’s got to mean something, right? Are we sure that he’s damaged goods, never to be anything near the pitcher we thought we were getting last year, or even last month? Because there’s a pretty painful way to find out we’re wrong – trade him to a division rival and have him beat us head-to-head 4-5 times a year for the next decade or so.

by long time listener on Jul 16, 2009 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

only thing is it’d b like saying Mo had the lowest ERA cause joba doesnt pitch far into games. and his velocity could possibly come back. im just not saying this guy should b untradable nor should he just b thrown away. i think hes potentially a valuable pitcher…just probably not this year

by bforce3 on Jul 16, 2009 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

or who had the best?

English, MFer, do you speak it?

God I’m dumb today.

by New York Sports Jerk on Jul 16, 2009 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I could be wrong

But I think you can drop the direct object in that situation. In this case, “the best” is a pronoun, as in ’I’m the best.’

"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."

by jscape2000 on Jul 16, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

leave it to the english teacher…

by NumberSeven on Jul 16, 2009 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He may end up great

But is it worth waiting around for? He needs rehab. I think we could leverage him into an actual pitcher who pitches. I think we’ve already seen the best of Joba. Jeter isn’t a comparable case. I’m not talking about impatience with a prospect. Never said the same about Melky, Hughes, or even Cano after last year. It’s not a slow start. It’s thwarted gift. Because he wasn’t a slow starter, he was a great one.

by CrazyYankeeChick on Jul 16, 2009 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

But is it worth waiting around for?

why not? That’s what good teams do-they are patient and they benefit from that patience over time.

by Buzzy on Jul 16, 2009 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

only problem is we have 2 true starters. andy can b hit/miss depending on the day. cmw is disabled (notice i didnt say on the DL). and joba produces a 5 ERA 5 inning or less effort. our pen is used too much in joba/andy/cmw situations. we need length from starters. not gonna beat boston with 2 starters…

by bforce3 on Jul 16, 2009 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You have

at least 4-Pettitte, Burnett, CC and Hughes. You also have Aceves, CMW and Joba. No team has above league average pitchers as their 1-5…

by Buzzy on Jul 16, 2009 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

last time i checked hughes was in the pen. and would require rehab if he was going to be stretched out into a starter. andy isnt dominant and doesnt always provide length. aceves is going to the pen. CMW is a joke this year. joba started ok and has been plummeting.

by bforce3 on Jul 16, 2009 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes

and perhaps that was a mistake (Hughes). But still-that’s a lot of arms. Hughes can still start if sent down for 2-3 starts. And not all of your pitchers need to give length-you need your starters to pitch 67% of the innings total.

by Buzzy on Jul 16, 2009 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe

All i’m saying is that its a gamble. And I dont understand why we’re acting like there’s a much better chance at him returning to form than the opposite scenario. We have more reasons to believe he wont be the old Joba, and as such, I think he’s very deal-able/trade-able.

by CrazyYankeeChick on Jul 16, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, he’s had success at every level, including the major leagues. Do the last seven starts cancel all that out? Of course it’s a gamble – no one knows what a 23-year-old starter, especially one who’s had a shoulder injury, is going to do. But it’s madness to write a guy off after seven bad starts.

by long time listener on Jul 16, 2009 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If

the Yankees trade him and other prospects they lose cost controlled(*) players with upside for a single expensive older player who may or may not put them over the edge. Then they are locked in to said player paying for less than peak performance over too many years. We have seen this formula before. I almost never works.

by Buzzy on Jul 16, 2009 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

the (*)

was going to be a footnote-cost controlled matters even to the Yankees because big contracts are long contracts which severely limit flexability.

by Buzzy on Jul 16, 2009 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

about impatience with a prospect.

How old do you think Joba is? He is prospect age.

by Buzzy on Jul 16, 2009 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maddux, Smoltz, Halladay, Santana, Lee, Johnson, Haren, Peavy, Lester, Schilling, Sabathia, Hernandez, Jurrgens, Jackson… they were all as bad or worse than Joba at roughly the same point in their careers. Boy, how stupid it was not to trade them for Twizzlers!

by Buzzy on Jul 16, 2009 2:25 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Of them

Smoltz was the only one who managed to maintain value after being jumped around from starter to reliever.

by CrazyYankeeChick on Jul 16, 2009 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No

Schilling wet to the pen in 05 afer coming back from injury. He sucked, and returned to being a good starter.

by Buzzy on Jul 16, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Derek Lowe

did the same…

by Buzzy on Jul 16, 2009 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry

I meant of the guys you listed. didnt see Lowe.

by CrazyYankeeChick on Jul 16, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What about Santana?

Id assume you meant the Johan?

He was a damn good reliever too. That turned out OK?

by FreeBradshaw on Jul 16, 2009 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yes

I think he did pitch from the pen-

by Buzzy on Jul 16, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

from what i heard on ESPN this morning about how they wanted 3 projected superstars for halladay…like 3 monteros…so i’d pass on that deal

by bforce3 on Jul 16, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Give up now, really?

I will preface this by saying that I was a big proponent of Joba staying in the bullpen. However, I have come to the realization that due to the Brass’s mismanagement of him, he is not going back there. At least not this year. And to all those out there wishing they swap Hughes and Joba, that is a pipe dream. To convert Hughes back to the starters spot at this stage of the season, would just cause the same type of damage to his arm as it did to Joba’s.
Although I don’t consider Joba untradable, I don’t see that as the solution to his and the Yankee’s frustrations. Clearly you may have a point that he might be injured, but I argue that his recent struggles can be attributed to fatigue and mismanagement. This is his first year as a starter. If you look at his split stats of pitching on 4 days rest versus 5 http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=chambjo03&year=2009&t=p, you can see a clear difference in his performance. We the spoiled Yankee fans expected him to be a fourth Number 1 Starter on the rotation behind CC, AJ, and Wang. His average performances has proven that he is at best a fourth or fifth at this stage of his career. With Wang’s collapse, we must now go into mass histeria and try to sell the Farm in order to have the “best” and most expensive rotation of all time? I am just not ready to bail on him yet and we need to realize he is at best a #4 or #5 starter right now. This team is getting paid plenty to handle that.

by Larry Soprano on Jul 16, 2009 2:35 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I just don't think it's there

and we dont have to wash our hands of him. But we certainly dont have to sacrifice chances at more proven pitchers at the expense of refusing to trade him/ ignoring his palpade fallacies.

by CrazyYankeeChick on Jul 16, 2009 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm just tired

of seeing Cashman deplete the team of good young talent at the chance of getting another high priced marquee player that may be past their peak. I am still ticked off he traded Ted Lilly away. Maybe I’m a cynic, but I’d rather see the coaching staff and managment do their jobs to deal with his fallacies than risk it on a 32 year old with a current groin injury. Heck, he could be the next coming for all I know, but at this point I’d rather stand pat.

by Larry Soprano on Jul 16, 2009 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

proven pitchers

Over at OTM we always argue about this. To me “proven” means a guy that is currently pitching well. It’s madness. Fans are remarkably impatient. As I said, the Sox could have traded the unproven Lester for the proven Santana and it would have been a disaster. They will not do the same with Clay Buchholz. And they shouldn’t, even if they still have lots of good arms (Bowden, Kelly, Hagadone and Tazawa) in the minors. Keep your young pitching talent. It is like gold.

by Buzzy on Jul 16, 2009 2:45 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

WOW

the Sox didn’t trade Lester, how’s that working out?

by FreeBradshaw on Jul 16, 2009 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And as I took a little look

at the Red Sox prized Clay Bucholz, I just wondered what some of these Yankee fans would be saying if he put up THOSE numbers as a 23 year old in the Bronx.

Or would that no-hitter absolve him from all doubts?

by FreeBradshaw on Jul 16, 2009 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It might...

…and a couple of WS titles in the last few years might help too.

by New York Sports Jerk on Jul 16, 2009 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Of course they would

well, the no-hitter would probably be forgotten about,

but look at Bucholz numbers in the season where he was 23.

Look at that and compare to Joba’s first half. Pretty abysmal if you ask me, but are the Red Sox giving up on him already? I’ve heard a few say it would be nuts to trade him straight up for Halladay (those guys are idiots by the way)

Is Bucholz a better prospect that Joba? I aint 100% sure on that, but I know he’s well regarded as their future ace, just like Joba is for the Yanks.

Bucholz has had less time in the bigs, but he was a lot worse than Joba.

by FreeBradshaw on Jul 16, 2009 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Red Sox don't have to "give up" on him

Because they’re already loaded and can afford to stash him in the minors.

And by the way, if you’ve ever read BostonDirtDogs or Sons of Sam Horn, Sox fans were saying many of the same things about Bucholz as you’re reading from Yankee fans about Joba.

by New York Sports Jerk on Jul 16, 2009 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Buchholz

Here is the thing-on that other site we do argue about trading Buchholz. But I think it is crazy, and I know the Sox FO feels the same way. Like Joba and Hughes, Buchholz has great stuff and a great upside. If he fails, ok, the Sox have other good arms. But he won’t cost in terms of contract, money or other prospects. He has actually been better than his numbers look in the majors (and no, he has not been as good as Joba). He has a high K/9 and decent FIP despite the bloated ERA. His bloated ERA last year was due to a high degree of crappy luck. He has a ground ball percentage of 50% and a LD% of 20 % but still somehow has a BAPIP against of 366. It is hard to do that even you tried. Stupid Sox fans want to sell, but they are dumb. There has been an interesting series on fangraphs about the best trade values (mostly established players). Number 38 is Buchholz, for whom they say:
-——————————————————————————————————————————————————-
In any other organization in baseball, Buchholz would be a regular member of the rotation. He’s mastered the minor leagues and even pitched fairly well in the majors, posting a career 4.34 FIP over 98 innings in 2007 and 2008. He’s got top notch stuff and improving command, which is why every GM in the world asks for him when they call Boston, but the Red Sox realize how valuable of an asset he is, which is why he’s still in their organization. Wherever he ends up, he’ll instantly become the future of the team’s rotation.
-——————————————————————————————————————————————————-
Number 42 is Joba. Here is what they say:
-——————————————————————————————————————————————————————
So, the converson to the rotation hasn’t gone well yet. His velocity is down, contact
against him is way up, and he’s posting a 4.78 FIP because his command hasn’t improved. However, he’s still a premium arm pitching in the toughest division in baseball, and we’ve seen what he’s capable of when he’s going right. We can’t ignore the upside just because the last month or two has been ugly. The risks are significant, however – if he doesn’t start pitching better in the near future, he could easily end up back in the bullpen. Like Hamels, high risk and reward. At least he’s still cheap.
-——————————————————————————————————————————————————————
It would be a mistake to sell low on either of these guys, or Phil Hughes, for that matter.

by Buzzy on Jul 16, 2009 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Trade Joba?

After less then 1 year as a SP???

Jeez…give the kids a chance to grow and learn!

Isn’t that the big gripe with the Yanks? They trade people without giving them a chance to grow and learn.

He has the tools, he may need a better mentor…someone who speaks his language, who can put him on the right path and teach him how to be as a SP as he was as RP, but really……trade him?

Perfect example….what if the Yanks traded Hughes after a few struggles last year (before we knew he was hurt and let’s just say he didn’t get hurt). How annoyed would we be if he were on some NL team blowing people away.

Do that with Joba and that may well happen.

by Ragnar808 on Jul 16, 2009 2:46 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

we didnt subject hughes

to the danger of yanking a lights out 8th inning arm and throwing an already injured arm into a major league rotation.

by CrazyYankeeChick on Jul 16, 2009 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nice post, CYC.
You’re article made me decide to post something I’ve been thinking about concerning Joba. It’ll hit the air at 6!

"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."

by jscape2000 on Jul 16, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

But the point is.....

….this kid, Joba, he has barely been in the major leagues. Let him learn and grow on the job. I would guess you would need 2-4 years to fully judge what he’s gonna be about.

You’ve still got AJ, CC, Andy as vets—-Wang will be back eventually too……not too many teams can boast 3 big SPs like that….none the less 4 or 5. The Yanks are in a luxury position….they need to be patient or 10 years from now we’ll be crying again like we did with Jay Buhner ;)

by Ragnar808 on Jul 16, 2009 3:15 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

OH NO!

2-4 years?

God forbid!

I just don’t understand how so many are so quick to judge. Young players have struggles. Will he overcome it? Will he fail? I don’t know, no one does.

Is he injured? Well no one close to the man has said a word on the subject, so I don’t think he is.

by FreeBradshaw on Jul 16, 2009 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dumbest idea ever

the Yankee front office is finally wising up and isn’t going to trade away all of their best prospects to get an aging, overpaid player. I say NO to these trades.

Enough with these ridiculous instant gratification ideas. Do you have any idea how hard it is to be a starting pitcher as a young kid? To go out every 5 days and try and throw 5-7 quality innings against great hitter? IMAGINE someone only being AVERAGE at that when they first start out.

Joba has all the tools to get better, whether he will or not, no one knows, but lumping him in a trade because of his last 7 starts is the dumbest baseball decision I have ever heard presented.

by Lord Duggan on Jul 16, 2009 3:49 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

As for trading him?

Can’t we just wait till the offseason to even think about that?

Joba (and Wang for that matter) ARE coming back off injuries last season. Wang’s been on the DL twice, and maybe some of you psychics are right in that Joba is injured too, and he’ll go on the DL.

But why don’t we just wait till the season’s over before we panic and deal them. After all, they DO have ‘some’ upside don’t they? Joba hasn’t shown much as a starter, but Wang has.

The season’s has been up and down, but their record is pretty good, Red Sox and Angles failure notwithstanding.

There still is hope in the second half, there always is. Why can’t Wang and Joba be part of the solution for the rest of the season?

Getting Halladay for a package including Joba may make some feel better, but that doesn’t do anything for the team either now or in the future.

We just can’t keep trading prospects away. Let Halladay go to teh Phillies, or even Red Sox for all I care. The Yankees pounded him pretty good last time out anyway didn’t they?

by FreeBradshaw on Jul 16, 2009 3:52 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Alright this isn't a "He cant get it done in 5 starts or less! PANIC AND DROP HIM!" thing

We have not enough to reason to think he’s as good as we make him out to be. As a reliever, he was. As a starter, he’s hittable. I hope he pitches a perfect game Sunday, but I dont get why we’re so in love with Joba when his move to the rotation has hurt not only him, but the team, and the fluidity of the pen. I am NOT saying someone needs to take this loser off our hands stat. I AM saying that he’s not a God, and what kind of evidence do we have to suggest his move to rotation is moments away from screaming SUCCESS? I’m going by what I’m seeing.

And what I’m seeing indicates that he’s not the unique valuable ace that he was in the pen, and on the contrary, is a liability with possibly damaged pitching mechanics. He’s not that great. Maybe he was but are we precluding a trade for more proven stuff based on the assumption Joba will be good at some point? How good are we talking?

Basically we’re assuming that Joba will go from a .315 opposing BA to being such a good starter that it’ll be worth dragging through another stretch of losses while he works out the kinks. It’s a tall order anchored on conclusions made based on work he did in a different capacity, in a different year and time. A tall order that subtracts a pitcher from our trade leverage pool.

Why are we acting like he’s Christy Mathewson?

by CrazyYankeeChick on Jul 16, 2009 3:58 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Christy Mathewson?

Pretty obscure reference dontcha think? Thank god for Wiki and Google.

by Larry Soprano on Jul 16, 2009 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If you don't know who Christy Mathewson is...

…you need to spend a few years reading about baseball history before you get to watch another game.

by New York Sports Jerk on Jul 16, 2009 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

But why are we acting like he's washed up?

Cuz we moved a 23 year old pitcher from starter to reliever?

I know going back to the past is a no-no, but here’s a few examples of pitchers that started their careers in the pen…Orel Hersheiser, David Cone, Rick Sutcliffe. That’s 3 who were rooks or 2-3 year players in the bullpen when they got switched to the rotation.

It used to be the norm actually.

Its Joba ever gonna be taht star ‘ace’ we all want him to be? Much like many prospects, he probably won’t (but it could still happen).

Would he ever have maintain that ‘star reliever’ status he had for those 30+ innings? Who knows that either?

by FreeBradshaw on Jul 16, 2009 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't get it.

since when is a .315 BAA for a 23 year old in 35 innings of work an indication of anything? He has a BAA of .279 for the season. Not what you might want, but it is not the scarlet letter or something.

by Buzzy on Jul 16, 2009 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I dont think anyone has said he is Cy Young

People just see a lot of raw talent and therefore have high hopes.

Remember, when he got put back as a SP, both Hughes and Kennedy were big flops at the time and he was certainly needed as a SP.

Let’s face it….the Yanks problems this year are not just Joba. They are inconsistent with the bats, and and need to do better with RISP. The SPs as a whole need to put in 6 IP when they go out there and that is where Joba and Andy have failed a bit. The RPs also have to step it up a bit more. Phil can’t do it all.

But there’s a whole 2nd half to play….so let’s see what happens.

by Ragnar808 on Jul 16, 2009 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'll also add

that I know age is NOT a factor in baseball players careers, CYC ALL THOSE PITCHERS you named were in their 30’s or in Brett Myers case already had a few years starting already.

Joba’s 23. I know that’s old. He’s nearly complete a season’s worth of MLB starting. I know that’s an eternity.

But he’s 23, he’ll get over it. If he was Mark Prior or Kerry Wood and was throwing 230+ innigns for 2 years in a row, then maybe he’ll never get it back.

And please don’t give me that Ricky Romero crap. How about ONE OTHER pitcher who’s doing that?

by FreeBradshaw on Jul 16, 2009 3:59 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

no, no, and oh yeah, no!

im just as frustrated with joba as everyone else but i would not want to trade him, at least not now. He has all the talent in the world but just hasnt gotten it all together yet. Im not saying that pitching just 5 innings every start is acceptable but i would like to see him get more time or at least get sent down for a bit before he is traded.

by bklynyank on Jul 16, 2009 4:43 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Most

pitching prospects take a couple of years to ripen and a few more to really reach their prime. joba has pitched just about 200 innings as a starter. the yankees are 11-6 with him as a starter even though he has the fewest decisions in baseball…

others have made my argument pretty eloquently so for the sake of not being redundant i’ll bring in a new perspective.

the yankees have a .647 winning percentage in the 17 starts that joba has pitched in. there are teams who wait on pitchers to develop (A’s, Marlins, Giants) that could only dream of being that successful while trying to work out the kinks (physical and mental) of their young pitchers…most of the time they are dragged down and brought out of serious contention. the yankees are in a unique position. and i think that for their sake and for joba’s they should take advantage of that. they have a chance to develop joba and hughes without really sacrificing their viability as contenders, so far.

Joba has the potential to be great, I think that its worth the wait and the frustration as long as he doesnt bring the ship down with him.

by brxbomber on Jul 16, 2009 4:58 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

It's true about their winning %

But if you look at it, it’s mostly because the offense has bailed Joba out quite often.

He’s left a game with the Yankees trailing 8 times (7 times by 2 runs or more), and they’ve come from behind to win 4 of them.

They could just as easily have lost all four of those games, which is why team winning percentage is a pretty terrible way to just a starter’s effectiveness.

by New York Sports Jerk on Jul 16, 2009 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I

was going to mention that and i knew it would come up, but that’s part of the fortunate circumstances that the yankees are in, they score runs. they more often than not will keep you in the game..nobody is questioning joba’s ineffectiveness. i think it is just as much mental as it is physical so who knows if that can be fixed.

he averaged 93mph last start but he blew up once again after an error, even when he proves that he has the velocity and the sharp slider he lacks mental fortitude to push through that tough inning and at any sense of trouble he nibbles…but the fact remains that besides for an injury shortened start he has just as many start over 6ip as 5ip and under. 8 starts each. just based on that its a little rash to give up on him….ups and downs are just as much a part of baseball as anything else, especially for rookie pitchers…

its frutrating for everyone but we may see his worst before we get to see his best and he’s shown flashes of both this year. that 8 inning performance and a couple other strong starts are enough for me to hold on for this year

by brxbomber on Jul 16, 2009 5:23 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

first off

great article.

but i again have to ask: how can you be so ready to throw Joba into the pen over Pettitte (who’s been worse); and who’ll start in his stead?

AP in his last 6 games has a 6.27 ERA.

and while i’m down for trading Wang, he’s almost worthless at this point.

by Travis G on Jul 16, 2009 5:43 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

also wanted to mention

Jon Sanchez, who, despite coming off a perfect game and pitching in the offensively inept NL West has a higher ERA than Joba, who pitches in the launching pad known as YS in the AL East!

by Travis G on Jul 16, 2009 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

bad outtings are inevitable

First, thank you!

I’m addressing a pattern of diminishing power and control and dominance, with promising Joba of yore moments becoming fewer and farther between. Andy isn’t trade leverage right now, the young guys are.

I just am baffled why we’d be willing to pass on a steady starter who isn’t losing mph with every bead of sweat, for the sake of holding on to a loose cannon.

by CrazyYankeeChick on Jul 16, 2009 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh good, this again...

CYC doesn’t need me to defend her, but here you are again arguing against a point she never made.

It’s not Joba’s performance that is the sole reason people want to see him in the bullpen. It is his performance combined with:

1) His major league bullpen resume
2) His velocity/command issues as a starter
3) His injury history

Maybe you want to see Pettitte in the bullpen which is why you keep bringing up that argument, but nobody I’ve seen has said that ANY pitcher should be in the bullpen after struggling for a month.

It is an unrelated argument that you insist on using.

by New York Sports Jerk on Jul 16, 2009 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

nobody I’ve seen has said that ANY pitcher should be in the bullpen after struggling for a month.

this is exactly what you’ve been saying. i’m confused because Joba has been a better starter than Pettitte (both this year and last), yet you and others want to put Joba in the bullpen. i dont get how Joba is so deserving of that demotion but not a guy on the same team’s who’s done/doing worse.

by Travis G on Jul 16, 2009 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No it isn't what I'm saying! Jesus tapdancing Christ.

God, it’s like you’re intentionally ignoring what I’m saying.

I’m not treating the Joba-to-the-bullpen move as a “demotion” I’m treating is the right thing to do for his career as a pitcher.

I am not saying he belongs in the bullpen BECAUSE of the last month and a half, I’m using the last month and a half of results to demonstrate my longstanding belief that the bullpen is where he belongs.

Understand the difference, or do I have to get out the posterboard for visual aids?

by New York Sports Jerk on Jul 17, 2009 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Posterboard! Posterboard!

Cause not only would it be funny if you took the time to create them, but you’d have to take pictures of yourself holding them up!
I understand your argument.

Can I introduce another comp?

Tom Gordon:
At 20 he made 2 starts and relieved 3 games.
He made at least 11 starts per year for the next 5 years, while still relieving 127 games.
At 26 he became a full time starter, he did nothing but start for 3.5 years, before becoming a reliever again at 29.
He pitched for a decade after that.

If a player might be capable of starting, you have to let him try.

"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."

by jscape2000 on Jul 17, 2009 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pettitte will never go to the pen

Come on now you have got to be kidding me. This is arguably his last year as a player, and it has been a great career, other then losing him for those few years to the Astros. There is no way you are going to see him moved to the pen. This isn’t a possible Smoltz type of experiment here.

Joba going to the pen would not be a bad thing. For onw he has a proven track record there, minus the midges, second he is lacking confidence. If he is able to go to the pen and start letting it all loose again I think you just might see him start to dominate hitters again.

To do this we could either try stretching out Hughes in the bigs or send him down to to AAA to get about 3 starts to stretch him out to take Joba’s place. I think Hughes has the pitches of a legit starter and can take his confidence right into that starting role.

by syllk on Jul 17, 2009 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Yankees can't (successfully) continue the season with this rotation

They need a reliable starter. It’s not debatable.

To get a starter like Halladay, they have to be willing to trade someone.

They have to be willing to trade a young player.

Of all their farm and young talent, what makes Joba so untouchable?

The bottom line is that I would rather see Halladay in our rotation than Joba. We can’t get a good starter without giving someone up. Hughes is great in the set up spot. Aceves is great in long relief. Coke and Robertson and un-injured and improving steadily. Wang is useless.

Why not trade Joba while he still has some value left in him?

Otherwise there’s a chance that we pass on acquiring demonstrated talent only to suffer through another couple sub-par Joba starts, quickly followed by the Yankees “discovering” a torn labrum that sidelines him for the season once Halladay is already dotting the i’s on his new team’s contract. The Yanks then commence a 10-day road trip and arrive back home to face the friendly Sox , while somewhere Halladay is moving right along and mowing em down.

This is a pitcher who went from 24IP in 07 to 100 in 08. The toll of that dramatic shift is well-documented. I’m not rashly throwing him under the bus, I’m considering the distinct possibility that he may not bounce back. Of course, he still could bounce back.

But to close off the idea of trading him based on that mere hope and possibility? We have young talent who’s NOT wrestling with these factors and uncertainties. I’d rather hold on to them and pick up a starter. Both, to me, are worth more than Joba and his maybe-maybe not future.

by CrazyYankeeChick on Jul 16, 2009 6:39 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

What you are missing is

a)The Yankees can go on with this rotation. If the season ended today, the Yankees would be in the playoffs. There is not such a great correlation with winning the division and winning the WS. 25% of playoff teams are wild cards. I have not checked, but I doubt fewer than 25% of the wild card teams have gone to the WS. The 2002,2003,2004 WS winners were wild card. The 2005,2006,2007 WS had a wild card rep.
b)The Yankees are only 3 games back and could easily win the division.
c)Once in the playoffs, the whole thing is a crapshoot. Bad teams win (eg the 2006 Cardinals). Pitching does necessarily determine the winner (see, eg, the Braves of the 90s who won a single WS in a strike year with perhaps the best 1-2-3 of modern times).
d)The Yankees starters will likely improve in the second half.
e)A single player, even one as good as Halladay, improves any teams chances by a much smaller amount than most fans imagine. For this year, maybe 5%? Who knows.
f)Trading for Halladay will require you to sign him for a lot until he is 38. He will likely not be great for most of the contract.
g)The Yankees will have to give up more than just Joba. The Yankees farm system is not stacked, it is closer to average (which is a good acomplishment considering where the Yankees draft and the picks they have lost by signing FAs). Many decent prospect often turn out to be more valuable than one overpriced aging superstar-it is a lesson that bad GMs never learn.

by Buzzy on Jul 16, 2009 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

+20

agree with a-g.

CYC you couldn’t be more wrong about this.

by Lord Duggan on Jul 16, 2009 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

C'mon CYC!

You sound like Colin Cowherd when you say something is ‘not debatable.’ Luv ya, but that’s not a compliment. It’s sports. Everything is debatable. Just like everyone is tradeable, for the right price.

by Ed Valentine on Jul 16, 2009 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

They don't have 5 starters!

How is it debatable that they need a pitcher?

by CrazyYankeeChick on Jul 16, 2009 8:25 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

You're right they don't.....they have more

CC, AJ, Joba, Pettitte, Wang, Mitre, Hughes, Aceves. Some of those guys are injured/not stretched out, but any of them can start multiple games between now and the end of the year.

The choice is between using the guys we have, or to trade blue chip prospects to get 1 starting pitcher.

Any of those guys listed can at least be a serviceable starter. Even in our division, there is enough starting pitching there to get us to the playoffs.

Adding 1 more starting pitcher (although arguably the best in the game) doesn’t make that much of a difference when he can only play once every five days, and just isn’t worth it to give up prized, talented prospects.

To suggest making such a trade is flawed logic, to suggest that it “isn’t debatable” is an absence of all logic.

by Lord Duggan on Jul 16, 2009 8:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

why not?

no team has a great set of starters 1-5. The Rays have Shields and Garza and a bunch of guys you would not feel so bad about facing. The Sox have Lester and Beckett, a 42 year old guy who throws 67 MPH, a 2 reclamation projects. The Angels have Weaver and…well Lackey who is struggling, Santana who is struggling, Saunders who is struggling, and spare parts. The Tigers have Jackson, Verlander, a 21 year old who is fading and probably not ready and crap.

by Buzzy on Jul 16, 2009 8:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Because for years

the Yankee front office and fan base have not grasped that to win you don’t need to field an All-Star team. You just need to get solid contributions from role players, great performances from a few players, and shrewd tactics.

It is very common on this site to lambaste Cashman and the Steinbrenners for wasting money and trading for overpriced, past-their prime veterans. I have never seen such a love fest for the hated Red Sox and the way that they have run their system. Then we lose a few games, someone gets injured, and we lose sight of the big picture and clamor for the same failed tactics.

It didn’t work before, and it won’t work now.

If the brass trades away the first great crop of prospects we’ve had in about 15 years I’m going to be sorely disappointed.

Not me, not now. What smart kids say to dumb trades.

by Lord Duggan on Jul 16, 2009 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes

one thing I feel good about being a fan of that hated team is the way the team is run. I understand that it does not guarantee that our team will win, but the process is logical and the plan long term. Short term fixes are tried from time to time, but they are rarely panic moves and do not usually cost too much. It gives me comfort. The Rays FO operates in much the same way. I do have the sense, however, that Cashman understands this too, and would be reluctant to sell on youth at this stage.

by Buzzy on Jul 16, 2009 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well the Sox realized

that although they have deep (but not the deepest) pockets, there are other, better, more reliable ways to play in modern day baseball.

The fact is, from an executive point of view, every player is a gamble. They aren’t cars, they don’t come off an assembly line, there are no guarantees.

As such, if you get a veteran (more expensive) player, and they fail, you are more than likely going to be on the hook for a lot of wasted money.

If you develop a young player, you can ascertain their value while paying them the league minimum.

The Yankees have the luxury to be able to do both, and in the past few seasons I think we have seen the beginning of that winning strategy. If the Yankees develop younger, talented, cheap players who can make very real contributions and become stars, while keeping their ability to make a splash by adding big-name veterans, they are going to be very difficult to beat.

by Lord Duggan on Jul 16, 2009 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

they are already difficult to beat.

I do sense Cashman understands this, as we saw with the rotation last year (which may have been overkill, but you get the point). The temptations are great (for the “savior” quick fix) but this is not basketball, and that just does not work…

by Buzzy on Jul 16, 2009 9:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh come on

Wang?
Hughes and Aceves are relievers.
CC, AJ, Joba, Pettite.
Mitre’s our alleged 5th who has never pitched in a big league game. I’ll hang my hat on that when that happens.

by CrazyYankeeChick on Jul 16, 2009 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure whether or not to chastise you

because Mitre has pitched 78 games in MLB. They were all in the National League, and if that’s what you meant then I apologize.

The point is that the Yanks DON’T NEED 5 marquee starters to be able to compete for a World Series. If you replace Mitre with Halladay, how much do our chances of winning increase?

Enough to get rid of Montero, Ajax, Joba, and probably 1-2 more prospects?

The answer is no.

by Lord Duggan on Jul 16, 2009 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hughes and Aceves

should be starters. Wang had more or less become servicable before he went down. Assuming he can pitch again that is another. I mean really, Hughes would be far better than many back of the end guys. Stretch him out and let him start. A successful pen can always be bult out of spare parts. Look at last years Yankees, or the Rays this year and last.

by Buzzy on Jul 16, 2009 9:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What's with the Wang hate?

we all know how bad he’s been this season, but we all (at least I hope) know how good he can be.

What happens if Wang comes off this DL stint and resembles that Wang again?

Its not as good as getting Halladay, but ""acquiring" a starter of Wang’s caliber, at the time he comes back, would be as good a deal as any.

by FreeBradshaw on Jul 16, 2009 10:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

its pretty debatable

considering that they have proven to have the amount of pitching to give them the third best record in all of baseball to this point, even with all of pettites and joba’s woes.

assuming that the %’s that Ed posted today hold true we will make the playoffs and we wouldnt even need 5 starters. the yankees rotation is set up perfectly for the playoffs when they will need only 4 starting pitchers and CC can go every 3rd or 4th day…

I wonder what you will say when joba goes thru a dominant streak at the end of the season and then reaches his innings limit. besides for the last 3-5 starts joba was the most effective yankee starter.

and what makes him different than pettite, why do we give up on a young guy who actually has been fairly reliable for a majority of the season, who has amazing upside, but we dont call for the head of a guy who is way over his best years and is likely not going to post an ERA under 4.50 as long as he is in the AL east.

pettite has been unquestionably worse…and he is not going to get much better, to me thats the only thing here thats not debatable

by brxbomber on Jul 17, 2009 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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