Hughes vs Wang: Why Ed and Travis are Right, but Not for the Reason They Think

by jscape2000 on Jun 4, 2009 11:00 AM EDT in New York Yankees Analysis

Travis started a little conversation among we happy few running PA, arguing that Hughes belongs in the rotation for the sake of his long term development.

Ed made several salient points, especially that Wang gives the Yanks their best chance to win now. This is the reason Joe G. is here- because obviously, if the Yanks miss the playoffs again, we'll be in the market for a new manager come October. And that is not a point that anyone needs to reitterate to Joe G. He knows.

But the real reason that Hughes should be in the bullpen is in the subtext of both their arguments. We have to worry about Hughes' and Joba's development while winning. Both young studs are on innings caps, and it makes no sense to let both guys hit their caps together. Far better to stash one in the pen now, and allow the two to swap places in the latter half of the season.

Which is why it has to be Hughes to the pen. The NY media needs an education on player development- it has been so long since either the Yanks or the Mets have developed a genuine superstar pitcher that the media has forgotten (or never knew) how to do it. The bullpen can be a natural part of a young pitcher's growth process. Let him spit sunflower seeds and practice his grip alongside Mo and the other veterans- put him in some tough spots so he learns to work out of jams. Teach him that as much as he is valued as a wunderkund, he is only a part of the team, and come stretch time he will need to be prepared to do whatever he is called on to do.

The media is moaning for Joba to be the 8th inning king, but the Yankees know he can be more than that. Maybe if the media and the fans see another pitcher go to the pen and dominate, one whom everyone agrees has less talent than Joba, maybe then we can finally put the "Joba to the pen" argument to bed, because the front office's insistance hasn't changed anyone's mind.

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YEAY!!

by FreeBradshaw on Jun 4, 2009 11:06 AM EDT reply actions

I think

the yankees should go with a 6 man rotation for the month of June or sit Pettite for a few starts. Have a good competition by July 1st whoever has the better numbers stays in the rotation.

by bleachercreatures on Jun 4, 2009 11:30 AM EDT reply actions

too bad there's a game at 1

it’ll disrupt this great discussion.

i’ll respond to both Ed and jscape here -

1. if Ed says winning now is the most important thing, Hughes has been better this season. Wang, outside of a few scoreless relief innings, has sucked. we have to hope he returns to form. Hughes is currently pitching rather well.

2. if Hughes isn’t in the rotation, i do support putting him in the pen rather than starting in AAA. at this point, he’ll learn more facing ML hitters (despite ~ 4 ip/week) than 6 ip/start vs. AAA hitters. it’s a tough choice between working out his arm in AAA vs. working out his mind in MLB.

3. The Joba Debate should have nothing to do with this. he’s in the rotation. only if/when he reaches his innings limit (later this year) should he be moved to the pen. until then, why discuss it?

4. jscape makes a good point that it would be bad to move both Hughes and Joba to the pen at the same time, but that makes a fairly lofty assumption that they both stay healthy.

5. Wang is a good to great pitcher, dont get me wrong, but the caveat with him is always ‘when he’s on.’ as YES announcers have been fond of saying: “to take that next step, he has to learn to self-correct.” it seems Wang is always refining his mechanics between starts, and if he isn’t ‘on’, he sucks that game instead of fixing the problem himself (like a good vet should, e.g. Pettitte, Sabathia, etc.). Wang has a career 109 ERA+. that’s above average. it’s far from great.

by Travis G on Jun 4, 2009 11:41 AM EDT reply actions

Your ideas are intriguing to me...

…and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

Thanks for being on the correct side of the Wang/Hughes issue, with the exception of the believe that Wang is “good to great.”

He’s good. His win totals were great.

by New York Sports Jerk on Jun 4, 2009 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions

Oh, man

I don’t even care about this argument at this point. With all three of us weighing in this might be the best little debate we’ve all had since I’ve been here. Don’t care who’s right or who’s wrong. Good writing and good points by everybody. Great stuff!!

by Ed Valentine on Jun 4, 2009 12:11 PM EDT reply actions

I have another point. Loyalty!

There is an underused word in majjor sports. But we want The Yanks to be the place of choice for big name, big talent players to come play.

For that to be the case we need players thinking about coming here to be confident they’ll get a fair shot to perform if they come here. Dumping Wang, after years as our ACE for a raw but talented rookie after an injury and 3 bad starts would have hurt us in the future.

Wang has earned his spot over the years. He has to lose it on the mound.

He hasn’t, YET.

If I's known I was going to live so long, I'd have taken better care of myself. Casey

by Cbeck3 on Jun 4, 2009 12:17 PM EDT reply actions

That's a good point

Nobody likes players to lose their spots without a fight and Wang hasn’t had his chance to do that yet.

by potroast on Jun 4, 2009 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions

Sabathia

To me this whole debate will become moot when it get’s closer to August September when C.C. is gonna go on three or four days rest. Which is probably more of reason to give Hughes time in the bullpen now and let him get adjusted to that becasue he will def. be there late in the year.

by jewboy3 on Jun 4, 2009 12:27 PM EDT reply actions

I'd be surprised if the Yankees

Ask Sabathia to do this outside of a playoff situation or the very end of the season.

They have a lot of arms and it’s not their style.

If I's known I was going to live so long, I'd have taken better care of myself. Casey

by Cbeck3 on Jun 4, 2009 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions

lets

wait and see what happens. so far wang has looked great as i expected. wangs surely earned his keep as a top of the rotation starter and not pitching him every 5 games is a waste of his talent. you wont see a 6 man rotation because that would mess with the days rest cc and burnett and those guys are accustomed to getting and you dont want to mess with that. Pettitte’s still a reliable pitcher hes been great most of the year so far and as I’ve been saying all morning he’ll be done after this year Hughes will get his chance to be a full time starter next year. Does anybody know how many ML options he has left? That could be an issue like what happened with Veras where we couldn’t send him down so they sent down Edwar Ramirez. Someone will probably get hurt before the end of the year Hughes will get another opportunity, but for now Wang has to be the guy.

by Jon F on Jun 4, 2009 1:49 PM EDT reply actions