Why Hughes should start over Wang
by Travis G on Jun 4, 2009 12:42 AM EDT
in New York Yankees Analysis
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PrintThe Yankees acted rashly for several reasons -
1. Hughes has been pitching very well lately (in his last four starts): 23 innings, 3.91 ERA, 7 BB, 23 K. And if you discount his one awful start, his ERA on the season is a fantastic 3.55. Wang has allowed three runs in eight relief innings. What Hughes has done is far more impressive, and he deserves to continue starting until he stops doing the job.
2. It stunts Hughes' growth to go into the bullpen now. He needs to get at least 150 innings this year if we want him to be a starter throughout next year (he's at 54 now). You generally don't want to increase a young pitcher's workload by more than 30 innings a year. 150 this year allows 180 next, and then 210 (a full-fledged starter).
2a. The move also prevents Hughes from working on his tertiary pitches, which he'll need as a starter. As a reliever, he'll primarily be throwing fastball and curveballs. The cutter and changeup (essential for starters) will suffer as a result.
2b. Hughes has a higher upside than Wang. He was the top pitching prospect in baseball a couple years back, and finally seems to be healthy and (hence) getting his velocity back (his fastball has been more than a MPH faster than in either of his previous seasons). By throwing out of the bullpen, he doesn't get the wisdom of getting through a lineup several times. Wang has been a very good pitcher, but not a true ace in the sense of CC Sabathia, Johan Santana, Roy Halladay, etc. He was the Yankee 'ace' in 2006-07 by default; he had an ERA+ of 123 in those years - very good, but hardly 'ace'-worthy. Phil Hughes could be a true ace, and the more experience he gets (i.e. the more innings), the sooner he'll reach that potential.
3. If Hughes dominates in the pen (a probable scenario), will it trigger a new wave of 'Hughes the reliever' stupidity? I'm so sick of the Joba Debate that I couldn't tolerate another argument of the same type regarding Hughes. Please remember, Hughes is relieving because the Yankees have too many starters, not because he's a long-term reliever. And he's not going down to Triple-A because he already dominated that level; he'll learn more by relieving in the Bigs than by starting in Scranton.
Now go ahead and tell me how wrong I am.
(For an opposing view, see 'Why Travis is wrong.')
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Joba should be in the bullpen, how many more long relievers does this team need????
CC, Burnett, Petttitte, Wang, Hughes should be the rotation!
This is a tired debate
not to mention illogical.
Those that are still hanging on to Joba relieving are just being ridiculously stubborn.
It ain’t happening!
Move on with your life.
I like how Cash and Girardi both immediately shot down the idea (again) without elaborating. Just ‘NO’, end of story.
It’s a completely media driven fantasy anymore.
It’s one of the reasons I no longer read newspapers; too much hype and lies.
Thank you
I am tired of the argument also and now it is finally over. Also I do not agree with the idea that a trip to the bullpen with stunt Hughes’ growth. It actually should help him develop and control his curve and fastball as well as get him in to pressure situations. And in all honesty Hughes had a chance last year to put a straggle hold on the #5 spot and didn’t do anything with it. He still needs time to grow and the good thing is he is 22 and we have tons of time for him!!!
I somewhat agree
I think that Wang should pitch but Hughes should be sent down to the minors to continue starting
when i first heard the news i was like “you’ve got to be kidding me!”
I think its only gonna be for a couple days
they probably want to keep Hughes on the roster for this next start just in case Wang explodes again. They didn’t expect that last time obviously, so you have to have a plan in case it happens again.
It makes perfect sense for the short term. If Hughes is still in the pen next week, regardless of whether he’s throwing 100mph in the 8th inning and working on a nice scoreless streak, then it will be a bit of a headscratcher to keep him with the team.
Proven Performance vs. Potential
Wang has performed in the past on a high level and Hughes OCCASIONALLY shows his potential but is not consistent. Honestly, do you really know which Hughes will show up for each game? That spot was Wang’s and it belongs to him. Yes, Wang was horrible at the beginning of the season but I personally, if the choice was Wang or Hughes to start a big game, would choose Wang over Hughes anyday. That could change in the future but I would still pick Wang b/c I trust him more.
It was Wang on Sunday who gave the Yankees a chance to win b/c either Hughes threw too many pitches or he fell in love with his fastball and couldn’t throw any of his other pitches over to set up his fastball. This was noted on more than one occasion on Sunday by a HOF pitcher (Dennis Eckersley).
Hughes has to start pitching and not living off of potential or those 1 or 2 good starts he has had.
Sabermatics matter but damn,
a kid who is 22 years old can’t pitch in the ’pen in modern baseball? Gimmie a break.
Maybe all this intense analytical minutiae has ancillary group -think side effects as well. These number’s aren’t religion and keeping a kid on the big league team helping them try to win a world series isn’t sacrilege.
He’s not Joba; nobody will ever say keep him in the ‘pen. There are a lot of bible’s about how to run a baseball team; just because you’re on one side doesn’t invalidate the other.
If Wang spits the bit, Hughes starts again. Wang is a two time 19 game winner. Hughes is a prospect trying to earn a spot in the majors at 23 years old. I think it’s a damn fine decision and one I’ve been hoping to see.
And isn’t Aceves a starter as well? It seems nobody cares how we use him. He doesn’t have the hype, but he’s performed just as well.
"Here, if you have a milkshake, and I have a milkshake, and I have a straw. There it is, that's a straw, you see? You watching?. And my straw reaches acroooooooss the room, and starts to drink your milkshake... I... drink... your... milkshake!"-Daniel Plainview
by yankee come lately on Jun 4, 2009 2:36 AM EDT reply actions
Aceves is
actually perfect where he’s at. I think of him as this season’s Ramiro Mendoza, and you need a guy like that.
Aceves has gigantic marbles when he pitches. He is perfect for the role he’s in. Spot starter, setup guy, closer, long reliever, doesn’t matter. Guy just comes in and throws strikes and seems to care less about what happens, which is a good thing as a reliever.
And why is Hughes not Joba? Of course if he’s good in the pen there will be a few dunces who want him to stay there. Why would anyone argue for Joba to be in the pen if he never pitched there?
A 22 year old prospect who is a STARTER should not be in the pen, unless like Joba it was out of necessity.
Right now this isn’t even a necessity, its really just a precaution if Wang exlodes.
This is something to talk about
but not really.
Assuming Wanger is back, he is much better than Phil is right now and he deserves his spot back.
A few weeks in the pen hurts nothing and if Phil is no longer needed he returns to starting in SWB. No big.
This is the best thing for Wang and the team.
There’s no way to know for sure now but it might be best for Hughes too. This should save some innings for later, plus he gets some time in a role we may need him to fill in the playoffs, Mo willing.
Somewhat agree
I am not a fan of Wang for whatever reason I dont have a good one. Everytime I tell this to another Yankee fan I get speech on 19 wins and most effective sinker pitcher blah blah blah I guess my problem with him is just that I don’t trust him as a starter. However I liked him as a releiver he seemed confident in that role and we all know we need a solid 8th inning guy in the absense of Bruney. Some say to put Joba in that role but Joba is way too good and has the stuff to be a starter. Joba doesn’t rely on one pitch like Wang does. If Wang doesn’t have the sinker he’s dead in the water so I could see him bieng more effctive in a releif role when he does have it and when he doesn’t well know when he’s throwing in the pen rather then throwing against Jason Bay and just not put him in. Once again this is a biast oppinion but I like to get some feed back
You're right that when
he can’t throw the sinker, he’s dead in the water. But the thing is when healthy, he has the sinker.
Also Wang has more than one pitch. He has a changeup, a slider, and a 4 seamer, all which he didn’t use much this season but has been working them in over the years.
The reality is that aside from Mariano’s cutter, CM Wang’s 95 mph sinker is as good as one pitch gets in all of MLB. Think Kevin Brown when he wasn’t on the Yankees.
When the guy is on, I could care less if its Jason Bay or Albert Pujols up at the plate, what happened this season is not what this guy is like.
Keep Wang But take out
I think it is time to sit Pettite. If Wang is OK and we know Hughes is OK then we can have a good young staff, The alternative is Move Joba to the 8th inning role and make pettite the # 5 guy.
Pettite?
why? One start makes you want to sit the guy, after he most definitely was pitching with a sore back?
And your alternative just won’t happen….(shakes head).
Well
I think you sit him to make sure his back is ok and he wasn’t trying to power through it. Travis, you’re wrong by the way :)
by HappyLuckyGoldenDragonNumber1! on Jun 4, 2009 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
no
well fortunately for you this will more than likely be pettittes last year so enjoy him while you can hes the last of the dynasty starters. next year the yankees wont have this problem hughes can be patient hell be a full fledged starter next year and hopefully thrive.
"Hughes has a higher upside than Wang"
It’s hard to have higher upside than a pitcher who came in 2nd in a Cy Young race just a few years ago.
Hughes v. Wang (June 4):
Check this out: May 25 @ TEX W 11-1 W 8.0 3 0 0 0 1 6 3 2 0 0 0 29.2 5.16 - Point being a couple of weeks ago Phil Hughes pitched his best game of the season IN TEXAS, Today would have been a GOLDEN opportunity (or should I say pinstripe opportunity) to start Hughes. I am a Rangers fan and the Yankees got bailed out by Melky and of course Mariano Rivera (best closer of all time, btw) this afternoon. Had Hughes have started, y’all would have beat us (Rangers) like 8-3 or 6-2. Hughes has far superior K:BB ratio than Wang; also Wang’s superior career record is highly due to the Yankees having an AWESOME offense – look closely at Wang’s WHIP and ERA; good but never great. If the Yankees insist of starting Wang/Joba/CC/AJ/Pettitte (not necessarily in that order, of course), then why not try this: A SIX man rotation! The only caveat would be to keep CC (maybe possibly Burnett, but even he’s injury prone) on a strict four (or even three days for CC in August/September) rest. Hughes does not belong in a major league bullpen. GO TRAVIS! P.S. Perhaps the Yankee’s would consider trading Phil Hughes to The Texas Rangers for say; y’all can have Padilla or C.J. Wilson or Andruw Jones.
Hughes looked incredible against the Rangers
and no there is no chance the yankees trade him, unless its for Salty, Frank Francisco AND Nelson Cruz, maybe Derek Holland in there for good measure….
Wang’s K:BB is probably the last thing you should look at when evaluating him. He doesn’t strike anyone out, but he doesn’t walk many people either.
And his WHIP is a bit misleading too. He may let up more hits than you would like, but that’s mainly cuz of all the groung balls he forces, they are gonna find holes.
I don’t know how you can say that the Yankees starting Hughes would have beat the Rangers today. Phil could have very well thrown one of his 5 inning 100 pitch stinkers or of course maybe match his last outing agains the Rangers.
Wang is a very good starter. The only numbers you should look at is his record. Yes the Yankees have a good offense, but more often than not Wang really didn’t even need it.
tonight
wang’s poor performance tonight is still due to his sinker not working that well. give him some time he’s a 19 game winner and the number 2 starter of the yanks (when he’s himself). I think girardi will give him a few more starts, even if they are bad, to see if he can find himself.
I do agree with several of the points you’re making about letting hughes start but right now he is in the pen out of necessity. we simply have too many starters. similar to the situation joba was in last year. plus you’re going to trust hughes more in the pen then other people in there
Three Reasons
Three reasons why Wang is in the rotation as opposed to Hughes. First is that Hughes is a flyball pitcher who has a 5.79 ERA and given up 5 homers in just 14 innings at the new stadium. This is a recipe for disaster for the Hughes and the Yankees. He and the Yankees need to figure out a way for him to pitch successfully in the new stadium. Granted, none of the Yankees starters have been terribly impressive or consistent at the new ballpark this year. But, of the five starters Hughes has been the least effective and consistent in comparison to Sabathia, Pettite, Burnett, and Chamberlain as a whole.
This leads to the second reason why Wang is being run back out there which is he is primarily a groundball pitcher who, when right, has the stuff to be a successful pitcher in the new park. Pitchers who can keep the ball down and induce groundballs are going to be the most successful pitching in that stadium until the team figures out someway to tamper the amount of home runs flying out of there.
Lastly, Wang is notoriously a slow starter anyway. Over his career he is 17-12 with a 4.90 ERA in the months of March, April, and May while he is 37-11 with a 3.61 ERA. Wang has won some big games for the Yankees over the years while Hughes has yet to show he can string together consecutive starts of more than 5 innings at the big league level.
Hughes is still learning how to pitch and get hitters out at the big league level, so the big question Girardi has to ask himself is whether or not he feels comfortable with a proven winner like Wang working his issues out as a starter or going with the unknown in Hughes who has talent but has yet to show he has fully grasped the mental part of the game necessary to be a quality big league pitcher.
Hughes is only 22 and the Yankees still have time to let him develop while, on the other hand, the Yankees are approaching a point in time where they are going to have to decide whether to give a Wang a long term deal or whether they are going to let him walk and stick with Hughes, Chamberlain, Kennedy, etc.
With the Yankees currently locked in a battle with both the Toronto Blue Jays and Boston Red Sox for A. L. East supremacy this season getting Wang back into top form could play a key role in the Yankees getting back into the postseason and making a serious run with the Sox starting to find their mojo and getting guys like Dice K and Smoltz healthy and getting back into action. Does Girardi really relish the idea of running the likes of Hughes and Chamberlain out there against the likes of Beckett, Dice K, Wakefield, and Smoltz who have tons of big game/post season experience? Given A. J. Burnett’s history of his arm blowing up on him one has to believe that Girardi likes his postseason chances a heck of a lot better with a healthy Chien Mien-Wang at his disposal as opposed to a green Phillip Hughes who has zero big game or post season experience at the big league level.
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