Rivera or Jeter? Who's the greatest?
by Ed Valentine on Jun 30, 2009 7:00 AM EDT
in Analysis
31 comments
Mariano Rivera or Derek Jeter? Which of these two current New York Yankee icons is higher on the franchise's list of all-time greats?
For me, the answer is simple. Rivera. No contest.
As great as Jeter is, and as much as he has meant to the Yankees, the last 15 years of Yankee baseball have been about one thing, and one thing only. Get the ball to Rivera with a lead, then wait for John Sterling to start screeching "Yankees win ... Theeeeeeee Yankees win."
Jeter is the Captain. Rivera has been, and still is, the Most Important Yankee.
Of course, to be fair we have to examine this question in much greater detail. Let's do that.
Both players arrived on the Yankee scene in 1995. Jeter played in 15 games, hitting just .250. He would take over as the starting shortstop in 1996. Rivera went 5-3 with a 5.51 ERA in 19 games, 10 of which were starts. In those short stints neither really gave an indication of the greatness they would begin to display in 1996, and the powerful era of Yankee baseball they were about to lead.
Jeter has long been acknowledged as the Captain, the leader, the symbol of all the Yankees did right during the championship years, and a player who has always been at his best when it has meant the most.
Argue about his defense and you can be picky and say he hasn't hit with enough power, but you can't argue about his value to the Yankees and how important he has been to all the winning they have done during his time in pinstripes.
Oh, and he is en route to putting together an offensive resume that will put him among the greatest to ever play once he is finished.
Let's look at his numbers.
- He has 2,624 hits and is headed toward becoming the first Yankee in the glorious history of the franchise to get 3,000 hits as a Yankee. He needs just 97 more to tie Lou Gehrig for the all-time franchise lead. Some have speculated he could reach 4,000 if he is willing to play long enough.
- Fourth in franchise history in doubles, just behind Don Mattingly and just ahead of Babe Ruth.
- Fifth in franchise history with a .316 career batting average.
- Tenth in franchise history in RBI, and is just 158 away from 6th.
- Fourth in franchise history behind Ruth, Gehrig and Mickey Mantle in runs scored.
- Seventh in franchise history in extra-base hits.
- Fifth in franchise history behind Joe DiMaggio in total bases.
- Second in franchise history behind Rickey Henderson in stolen bases. He has 292, and could well get to Henderson's 326.
I was just an 8-year-old kid when Mantle retired, and I have no recollection of ever seeing him play. With apologies to Mattingly, Thurman Munson, Reggie Jackson and anyone else you can name, that makes Jeter the greatest Yankee position player of my lifetime.
It has been a treat to watch him play, and I am fortunate to have witnessed his greatness.
Just not as fortunate as I have been to witness the greatness of Rivera.
WFAN's Sweeny Murti wrote Monday that Rivera's impact on the Yankees is rivaled only by that of Babe Ruth.
The Yankees don't win four World Series titles in five years if Mariano Rivera is not their closer. If the Yankees don't win four World Series titles in five years they don't draw 3-4 million fans every year for the last decade. If the Yankees don't win four World Series titles in five years and draw 3-4 million fans every year for the last decade they don't erect that shiny new building that in the Bronx.
Almost ninety years ago the Yankees imported Babe Ruth from Boston and the fortunes of the franchise changed forever. They built a spectacular new stadium that came to be known as the House That Ruth Built. Mariano Rivera's arrival was less heralded, but has his status as the greatest closer in history been any less important to this franchise?
At first blush, you might think Murti's is an outlandish statement. Think about it, though, and it is hard to argue with. Everything the Yankees have done since 1996 has been about getting the ball to Rivera -- and the championships, huge surge in attendance and the new Stadium don't happen without him.
Gehrig, DiMaggio, Mantle, Berra, Jackson and even Jeter can't match that kind of an impact. As great as Jeter has been I am pretty sure the Yankees could have found another shortstop. Maybe even the guy currently playing third base. But, find another Rivera? Sorry, no chance.
Let's list the numbers.
- The 500 career saves, of course.
- A 2.30 career ERA.
- An ERA+ of 197, easily the best of any pitcher in history. Pedro Martinez is second at 154. The 197 means Rivera's ERA is 97% better than league average for his career.
- The post-season greatness, with 34 saves, an ERA of 0.77 and an 8-1 record.
The numbers, though, don't tell the whole story of Rivera. The fact that after 15 years it is still a stunner when he fails tells part of the story. The respect he gets from everyone who has ever faced him, played with him or dealt with him tells part of the story. The World Series titles, individual milestones and the new Yankee Stadium tell part of the story.
It is, all in all, an amazing story.
In this 'Rivera vs. Jeter' debate I think Rivera is the winner. In a landslide.
Your thoughts?
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Jeter
has some immeasurable qualities that you cant find anywhere else. Beyond his clutch hitting, you have to look at how he leads this ball club. Jete is the the one talking at team meetings, answering for losses, fielding questions from the media with class and poise and being the face of this organization for his entire career. All the while being a HOF short stop with no off the field issues. Consider the pressure that puts on a guy before you say ARod could play short for the Yankees.
by ryanwk628 on Jun 30, 2009 8:23 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I love Jeter
He has been amazing, and I think in the end even better than a lot of people give him credit for. I fully understand that people who don’t watch him every day don’t get how much he means to the Yankees. In terms of who is more replaceable between Mo and DJ I just think it’s DJ. As for A-Rod, remember that when he came to the Yanks he was considered a better SS than Jeter. He’s too big now, and limited with his hip. Anyway, I don’t want this to end up as an A-Rod vs. Jeter at SS debate.
by Ed Valentine on Jun 30, 2009 8:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didnt mean it like ARod cant play as well as Jete (unless its clutch hitting) but the leadership, being the captain, keeping this team from turning into a circus… A Rod would be too busy making out with his reflection.
by ryanwk628 on Jun 30, 2009 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Both are great and have so far won six pennants and four championships in their remarkable career.(To a lesser degree,let’s not forget Jorge Posada.)
However,I voted for Rivera because no reliever in baseball has had a 14 year run as he has. Most are finished after three or four good years. In an era in which the closer is indispensable,Rivera has been fantastic.Hopefully both Jeter and Rivera will lead the Yankees to a Twenty-seventh world championship in 2009.
by Yank7 on Jun 30, 2009 9:30 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Indeed
Likely, the answer to this is that the entire great era does not happen without BOTH.
by Ed Valentine on Jun 30, 2009 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
It’s not that Rivera is great, he is dominates his category. A sub 0.80 post season ERA is just sick. Jeter is great, but he does not dominate the SS category like Rivera does for the closer.
Tough arguement though, it’s like asking who is the greater dynatsty of the recent modern era, the Jordan Chicago Bulls or the 1996-2000 Yankees. It’s just hard comparing across categories.
by coops2001 on Jun 30, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fun, though
Makes a great discussion.
by Ed Valentine on Jun 30, 2009 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wetteland was the closer in 1996...
So Sweeney needs to get his facts straight. I’ll agree that Mo > Jeter. Derrek is a great ballplayer, but he’s not a dominating force at his position. There have been plenty of great shortstops in his tenure (Tejada, Ripken, Arod when with Seattle & Texas, Han Ram), whereas Mo can be regarded as the greatest closer of the generation. I know Hoffman has more saves, but I believe that Mo is a better closer only because of his dominance.
by BriGuy27 on Jun 30, 2009 9:47 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
what do the empirical measures say?
I’d be curious to see, for example, the runs created/saved over replacement over their respective careers (which would be especially interesting since they’ve both been around for almost exactly the same amount of time, Rivera having a little more time in ‘95). I’d expect that Jeter will have been more valuable, being an everyday player. You’d also have to factor in salaries (I expect Jeter has made much more) and “intangibles.” Looked at it from that point of view, I suspect that Jeter is the more valuable player.
However, Rivera is pretty clearly the greatest relief pitcher of this generally, and almost certainly the greatest of all time. Jeter is certainly the best Yankee shortstop, but not the best of all time. I guess what I’m saying is, I don’t know who’s greater, I’m just glad they both play for my team. So I’ll abstain from voting.
by long time listener on Jun 30, 2009 9:51 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Aw, c'mon!
Abstain? What fun is that? I hear you, though, LTL. You can make arguments for either and, in the end, we are just lucky to have both of them playing for our team.
by Ed Valentine on Jun 30, 2009 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
*generation
Not “generally.”
If I had to, I’d vote for Jeter.
by long time listener on Jun 30, 2009 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Empirically, it's Jeter by a country mile
Career WAR:
Jeter: 62.5
Rivera: 33.1
by Eric Simon on Jun 30, 2009 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not as familiar with the stats as my earlier post in this thread would indicate, so I’ll ask out of ignorance. Does that mean what I think it means – that Jeter has been approximately twice as valuable as Rivera? It’s interesting that even the greatest closer ever is only half as valuable as a HOF shortstop – which makes me think that even the greatest closer ever would be less valuable than, say, a very good every day player who falls short of the HOF. I know his discussion isn’t about the “starters to the bullpen” debate, but seeing those numbers makes me wonder how anyone could try to initiate that debate.
by long time listener on Jun 30, 2009 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
here's another way to frame the debate
Let’s say you travel back in time to 1996, knowing everything that’s happened in the last 13 years. Someone tells you that the Yankees can only keep one of them. Who do you keep? It’s got to be Jeter, because he plays every day, right? (I’m assuming, for the purposes of this exercise, that you grab Brian Cashman by the lapels and scream “Don’t sign Carl Pavano! Or Kei Igawa! Or trade for Kevin Brown! Or Jeff Weaver!”)
by long time listener on Jun 30, 2009 10:50 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Rivera
Im from philly and a die hard phils fan, but i work up in new york and peolpe always tell me there is nothing like seeing Mariano close out a game in the ninth at Yankee stadium, being at a yankees game is even in some book as one of the top sporting events to go to in person in the world, i think its called “100 sporting events you must see live” I dont really remember i got if for my dad for fathers day, but i really need to get to a yankee game and cross that off of my list of sporting events to see live.
by philllyguy86 on Jun 30, 2009 10:57 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Jeter
Here’s why: the average pitcher pitches a scoreless frame 70% of the time, and since the ‘70s closers have averaged around a 70% conversion rate with elite closers averaging around 85%. Since they started keeping track in ’99, Rivera’s conversion rate has been 416/459, or 91%. At the top of the pack, but not clearly irreplaceable by an in-house option.
Meanwhile, Jeter, especially from ‘96-’00 when he became a free agent, was simply the top shortstop the Yankees could have had.
Nomar and Alex certainly weren’t going anywhere. And who was the 4th best shortstop over that span? Barry Larkin (.304/.401/.491) was hurt every season. The Indians were building their own playoff hopes around Omar Vizquel’s D. Who after that? Walt Weiss? Jay Bell?
Jeter’s .323/.396/.470 in 771 games was more irreplaceable than Mo’s saves for the late ‘90s championships. Add on Jeter as an everyday player and his marketability, Jeter is the player the team can’t do without.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
by jscape2000 on Jun 30, 2009 11:39 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Quickly
Name another “closer” who would throw 3 scoreless innings in Game 7 of the ALCS.
That’s the problem with comparing Rivera to other closers, he is simply in a class by himself.
He averages more than 4.5 outs per appearance in his post season career, which means that for every one-inning appearance he makes, he makes one apperance of longer than 2 innings.
Rivera is the greatest relief pitcher ever, and was an absolute WEAPON coming out of the bullpen in the playoffs.
This isn’t to denigrate Jeter because he obviously played a critical role, but the Yankees absolutely do not make it to the 1996 World Series without Rivera.
At a certain point, Rivera threw more than 33 consecutive scoreless postseason innings and pitched in every critical spot the Yankees of that era ever had in the playoffs.
Maybe if we’re discussing who is more valuable over a 162 game season, Jeter would be the choice, but with all the crucial outs Rivera has gotten in his career, he’s the pick.
by New York Sports Jerk on Jun 30, 2009 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not to say Mo is
but i think people are forgetting that Jeter was never interested in his statistics and ‘dominating’ his position. He dominates all other SS over his career in WS championships. Mariano is very much the complement to Jeter in terms of team mentality, maturity, no off-the-field issues, etc. That being said, based sheerly on innings played over their careers you can’t argue that Derek Jeter did not have a greater impact on a daily, per-game basis. Again, I could pose an equally strong argument for Rivera but Jeter was a large part of getting the ball to Mo. “Get Mo the ball with the lead” has been the Yankees mantra for over a decade. But lest we forget how many come from behind victories the Yankees posted en route to each of their championships. How many times did Derek hit a game-tying, game-winning, or go-ahead homerun in that time, creating the very situation that allowed us the realization of our mantra.
by ScottBrosiusWSMVP on Jun 30, 2009 12:43 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
As a Red Sox fan...
From a competitive standpoint: Rivera. No question.
Of course, as a Red Sox fan I have an entirely different perspective on the history and tradition surrounding the pinstripes, but this obviously isn’t the time or place [translation: not here for a fight]
Rock me, sexy Jesus...
by nuthinboutnuthin on Jun 30, 2009 12:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks
for chiming in. This is a very interesting debate, and it is one where an opponent’s view is welcomed.
by Ed Valentine on Jun 30, 2009 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As a Mets fan I agree with the Red Sox fan.
I have often felt that the Yankees have always had a stacked lineup, so no Yankees who makes his living with the bat, no matter how good, should be considered for the MVP honors. Take Jeter out of the Yankee lineup during any given year, and the lineup still has 4-6 All-Stars in it. If you swapped Omar Vizquel in for Jeter, yes there would be a huge drop off in both offensive play from the the short stop position and in team leadership, but the team would still have one of the tougher lineups around, and you could argue that they would be better defensively.
Conversely, there has never been anybody better then Rivera since he has taken over the closers role. I have argued with others that Jeters shouldn’t be league MVP because he isn’t even the most important player on his own team. Mo gets the vote.
No night spent pantsless is a wasted night.
by sireric on Jun 30, 2009 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for your thoughts
Again, this is why I vote for Mo. Everything the Yanks have done for 15 years now has been about getting him the ball. He has inspired fear and awe throughout his career, though not as much now as he used to.
by Ed Valentine on Jun 30, 2009 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My gut has to say MO
but its Jeter.
MO’s job depends on entirely too many things. THe pitcher has to be good (or just the guys leading up to MO). Also guys like Jeter in the lineup have to get the lead, and Jeter did that whole lot.
I mean MO has some INCREDIBLE stats as a closer. He’s simply the greatest closer of all time.
I think its unfair to base this off that cuz there are a few SS that have been better than Jetes (tho not many) at least as of today.
But while MO has had some ridiculous season, please remember how ridiculous a few seasons of Jeter’s were (1999 stands out)
A few of you are fooling yourselves if you think that Jeter wasn’t the key cog in the Yankees lineup in the champ seasons.
by FreeBradshaw on Jun 30, 2009 5:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
1999 was 10 years ago.
Jeter has gotten worse every year since then. Rivera has been remarkably consistent and even dominant throughout that time.
Rivera hasn’t just had some “ridiculous seasons” he has had a ridiculous, almost impossible to fathom career. He is without question the greatest relief pitcher in baseball history.
Jeter isn’t the best SS of his era. He’s not even the best SS on his own team.
by New York Sports Jerk on Jun 30, 2009 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
2006
was another one of Jetes ridiculous seasons. That’s between now and 1999 Id think?
And no doubt, 1999 WAS 10 years ago according to the numbers, but if we’re comparing impact over their careers WHY NOT go back in time for their whole careers?
Yes he’s broken down a bit, but that’s just what happens with SS who play as much as he did. YOu think that’s a cop out, well…I aint going there.
Rivera is the greatest closer. No doubt. No other closer aside from Trevor Hoffman has ever even came close to as consistent. MO dominates in every season he was a closer, and since no one else really has he’s in a class his own.
But you still have to put in perspective. Even the 3-4th best SS in the league over his careers (and considering that they all were roided up…..) is more valuble to a team than a closer.
I hate to knock MO any more than that, but its the truth. Jeters is a SS which is more important than a closer and he impacts more games.
I doubt the Yanks would win as much as they did without either of them, but Id still take Jeter.
by FreeBradshaw on Jun 30, 2009 7:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thank God
we’ve got both of them. We, the sports fans of New York, have truly been fortunate to have had these 2 guys on our side for 14 years now. Mariano not only represents all that is good about baseball, but is also a walking reminder of all the qualities that every human being should aspire to; Grace, class, respect, selflessness, humility, love of man, love of God. He’s a role model and an exemplary human being. I can’t imagine the Yankees without him. Let’s all savor the time we have left with him and Derek. These are special moments. When the players you root for are also players you care about as people it means the organization went about its business correctly. And let’s hope the guys that are left after they leave take all that was great about them and incorporate it into their daily routines as players. That way Mo and Derek will never really leave us even when they’re gone.
by chambliss76 on Jun 30, 2009 7:15 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
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