Retiring #51
by Rothstein on Jun 29, 2009 5:08 PM EDT
Email
Print
Okay, as the world's biggest Bernie Williams fan, I can admit I've waited as long as I can to post this - but if the Yankees aren't planning on re-signing Bernie, and his repeated claims that he doesn't want to play anywhere else, at what point should we stop delaying the inevitable and just retire the number 51 that graced the real Yankee Stadium with...grace.
After the Jump, the facts...
Won a batting title, 4 Gold Gloves, made 5 All-Star teams, yadda yadda, all the numbers that everyone knows already, and was the AL's 2nd best centerfielder of the 90's.
Something that everyone forgets, injuries didn't just derail his career toward the end, the guy got injured every freaking summer. I distinctly remember putting up with Chad Curtis numerous times because he kept getting hurt, yet kept coming back and hitting .300 with 20-30 homers and over 100 RBI, every season. If it weren't for those injuries in his prime, guy would have been guaranteed 3,000 hits, and who knows what other statistically mindblowing figures.
Like Jeter and Mo, Bernie exemplified what it meant to be "a Yankee." No one gave him credit for being the heart and soul of the team, but you can ask any Red Sox fan, they'll talk trash about Jeter, but no one messed with Bernie. He was too cool, too awesome, and literally everyone quietly loved him, and I hope his number gets retired quickly so the young kids going to the new park can ask their dads who's number 51, and he'll tell the story of the 1996 ALCS when he carried us to our first Series since the 70s.
Am I right here? Is it time? Lemme hear it.
55 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
I do not think so
I want the Yanks to retire Mo, Jeter.
I do not want to retire anyone else playing or already retired. Those playing may earn a mind change.
We have already retired too many marginal numbers.
If I's known I was going to live so long, I'd have taken better care of myself. Casey
agreed on all fronts...
as much as I love Bernie… you can’t retire every number. and there are few guys with their numbers already hanging out there that really shouldn’t be.
Agreed
You simply can’t retire the numbers of every good player who contributes to a title. Jeter and Mo, yes. No to the rest from this era.
by Ed Valentine on Jun 30, 2009 8:59 AM EDT up reply actions
yesssssssssssssssssssssss
look here . bernie first of all was a true yankee just like mo just like jeter, he played all his career with the yankees. 2. just like jeter , bernie has won rookie of the year , and nothing against jeter but we all know if arod wouldve not played more than enough games in 95 he wouldve been the real rookie of the year. 3 of all bernie when it comes to career highlights its basically in every top 10 in every batting categories for the yankees records . including homeruns , hits , rbis , double .. ect. bernie has won a batting title . was the real mr clutch when donny baseball retired , everytime u needed a hit or a homer bernie was your guy. has records in the post season that recently jeter and other players are breaking now , and last and not least now is that jeter is reaching alot of bernies numbers in offense productions (while already spending more yrs as a yankee then bernie) bernie did them quicker , faster and less time and yea more injuries .. imaginge if he had less injuries???? i bet 3000 hits was the least of his numbers.. and ppl saying paul o’neills number , nahhh . was a good player but not to be retired like bernie deserves it . paul was more of the attitude guy for the yanks . remember this also bernie was the real candidate to be the captain but his injuries and his yrs gave it to jeter . we all know bernie had to be the real captain not jeter
man its a touchy subject.....
and it has crossed my mind,but I think they should. loyalty means alot and he had it. if he didn’t, he would’ve played somewhere else by now.
by ReggieARodJeter on Jun 29, 2009 5:50 PM EDT reply actions
No.
I love Bernie, but he was far too much of a space cadet to be honored in such a way.
Fact is, the guy showed up like 15 minutes before Game 6 of the 2001 World Series.
Great player, by all accounts a great guy, but retiring a player’s number should be reserved for only the very best. Frankly, they have too many numbers up there already. There’s no way Reggie’s should be retired, he was a Yankee for all of 5 years.
Guidry is sort of iffy too. I won’t complain about Mattingly because he is a hero to my generation of Yankee fans, but you can make a case that his number shouldn’t be retired either.
Jeter and Mariano will be retired and represent the 1996-2001 teams. What they should do is hold a day to honor those entire teams and create a plaque to commemorate that dynasty in addition to previous Yankee dynasties.
That would be a great way to recognize O’Neill, Bernie, Tino and all the other guys who made it possible without retiring every number.
by New York Sports Jerk on Jun 29, 2009 6:05 PM EDT reply actions
blasphemy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!---------------LOL
“There’s no way Reggie’s should be retired, he was a Yankee for all of 5 years.”
His contribution should give him a pass though. And “The Boss” did regret letting him go. He should’ve NEVER been an Angel. I understand the tenure was short, but cmon,such an annoiting as “Mr.October” has to mean something!
by ReggieARodJeter on Jun 29, 2009 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed
Reggie’s #1 on my list of guys that shouldn’t have been retired… He was a great Yankee in the short time he was around, but retired numbers should reserved for legends.
by NumberSeven on Jun 30, 2009 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions
i'm ok with retiring #51
and i think #31 should have been retired as well, doubt it though
what do you all think of #6
i always thought 6 would be retired...
…now I am not so sure.
I say save 6 for the next big prospect coming up, whoever that may be.
by NumberSeven on Jun 30, 2009 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions
I can't believe...
That there are five nays to ZERO yeas. Just to remind you folks where Bernie stands in the list of all time Yankee records:
2nd all-time in doubles
4th all-time in walks
5th all-time in hits
5th all-time in extra-base hits
6th all-time in home runs
6th all-time in RBIs
Not bad company when one thinks back to all the legends who had worn the pinstripes. He might not have had “baseball instincts”, he may have been refered to as Bambi, but he played the game hard and with a quiet dignity that I wish many players and fans alike would emulate once in a while.
Oh yes, lets not forget to mention that he was at the heart of the built-from-within-dynasty; only the best Yankee years since the 1950’s.
+1
he is a great player, he deserves, unlike a couple of the people on that list
No one goes there anymore, it's too crowded. - Yogi Berra
You can't retire every damn number
It’s not an insult to Bernie to not retire #51.
Just thinking practically, eventually you’re going to run out of numbers.
There’s just no way Bernie is in the Mantle/Ruth/DiMaggio/Gehrig class.
by New York Sports Jerk on Jun 29, 2009 11:23 PM EDT reply actions
eventuallly they will start using numbers like
2/3 or 1/8
No one goes there anymore, it's too crowded. - Yogi Berra
You have got to be kidding me
Bernie is going to be a hall of famer as soon as his time comes up. Peter Gammons said so, its the truth. His 80 r.b.i. and 51 extra base hits are post-season records. In my opinion, as long as a player reaches the hall of fame the Yanks should consider retiring the jersey. The players from that era whose jerseys should be retired; Jeter, Rivera, Posada, and Williams. Easy.
by bronxbomber_22 on Jun 30, 2009 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Post-season records
He has those records only because he spent his career playing with three tiers of playing. Mantle, DiMaggio and all the other great Yankees only had the World Series. It’s not even close to a fair comparison. Yes, he was terrific. But, no, he is not a Hall of Famer.
by Ed Valentine on Jun 30, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Ouch
I’m aware he’s not in the Mantle/Ruth…class. But to say he’s not in the guidry/Mattingly/Munson class? I think that’s a slight and typically Jeter-ist Yankee fan ideology, but I appreciate the feedback and good points.
Well...
I’ve already said Guidry was an iffy choice. Mattingly is the same, although he’s been recognized because he was a great player during a bad Yankee era.
Munson is another story entirely.
It’s just like the HOF argument. Don’t compare Bernie to the “worst” of the guys who have had their number retired, compare him to the best. He doesn’t measure up.
It should be an honor reserved for the very best.
by New York Sports Jerk on Jun 30, 2009 9:23 AM EDT up reply actions
I wish Guidry's number wasn't retired.
I don’t think Munson’s number would be retired if he were still with us.
Think about the plaques back there for Allie Reynolds, etc. There can be a rememberance and honor without retiring the numbers.
I think the Yankees need to think about this.
It would give them somethhing to do for the O’Neills and Williams’ of the teams history. Maybe Mel Stottlemere too.
We don’t want some rookie to be assigned 126 for his number.
If I's known I was going to live so long, I'd have taken better care of myself. Casey
Yeah
You finally got your head out of your ass on something. Haha.
by New York Sports Jerk on Jun 30, 2009 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions
#20
So, do you throw Posada up there too, if Bernie qualifies?
Add me to the 'no' column
If you retire 51, you have to retire 21 (O’Neill) and 24 (Tino). And probably 20 when Jorge retired. Great Yankees all, but not all-time great players. You can’t retire everybody. Loved Bernie, but he wasn’t DiMaggio or Mantle. Not close.
Bernie's a HOFer
in my eyes. Tino and O’Neill aren’t close. You can retire one without the other two.
Hall of Fame
That’s another argument. Without fine-tooth combing all the numbers I’d say Bernie comes up short.
by Ed Valentine on Jun 30, 2009 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions
I think you can make a plausible case for Bernie for HOF, even though he probably does fall short. You can’t say the same for O’Neill or Martinez. Plus, Bernie was a Yankee his entire career. So I think they should retire his number. I agree that there’s been some retired number inflation (I’m looking in your direction, Roger Maris, Reggie Jackson and Ron Guidry), but Bernie isn’t the guy who should be punished.
by long time listener on Jun 30, 2009 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Bill James' HOF Monitor
says he makes it easily. My opinion is that his regular-season numbers make him a borderline case. Starting CF on four championship teams and 80 postseason RBI get him in.
also
he was squeaky clean during the height of the ’roid era. I suspect that will win him some points in the eyes of the BBWAA.
Nah.
The statheads will be all over me for this one, but my HOF criteria is pretty simple:
Can you tell the story of a player’s era without mentioning his name.
Bernie was certainly a fine player, but never a dominant outfielder and certainly not one of the all-time “greats.”
Frankly, I think they need to start pulling people out of the HOF first, because it’s become a bit of a joke.
by New York Sports Jerk on Jun 30, 2009 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
OK, we can do it your way
The late-‘90s New York Yankees were the story of their era. Who were the players that defined that dynasty and were indispensable to it? I would argue only Jeter, Mo, and Bernie. There’s no telling the story of the second half of the ’90s without those three.
O'Neill?
That’s the problem with confusing individual success with team success.
I don’t think saying Bernie isn’t a HOFer is an insult to his role on those teams. The HOF is for singular talents with unique ability and dominating results.
Bernie is none of those things. He was a very good player on 4 championship teams, that doesn’t make him a hall of famer.
Jeter and Mo are the HOFers from the Yankee dynasty.
by New York Sports Jerk on Jun 30, 2009 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions
O'Neill was a corner outfielder
who swung a good bat. Important as he was to those teams, lots of players could have filled that role.
Bernie was an outstanding hitter as a center fielder. Much harder to find.
But I’ll say it again. If you only take into account his numbers during the regular season, Bernie is a Hall of Very Good player. It’s his postseason performance that puts him over the top.
Numbers numbers numbers
Is it the Hall of Stats? If so, change the name and then look at the list of players who deserve entry according to those criteria.
Bernie Williams is not an all-time great player. Period. There is no arguing this. You can have your stupid little criteria, but the guy hit 287 HR, hit below .300, and despite winning multiple gold gloves was only an average centerfielder defensively.
And for the record, Paul O’Neill’s career numbers are remarkably similar to Bernie’s. One could argue that Ellis Burks has better numbers than Bernie, and nobody is saying he belongs in the HOF.
by New York Sports Jerk on Jun 30, 2009 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions
What exactly is wrong with numbers?
Offense has more value at difficult defensive positions than at easier ones. Had Bernie been a right fielder or a first baseman, no one would be having this discussion. If he had put up the offensive numbers he had at catcher, he’d be a no-argument first-ballot Hall of Famer. Center field is not quite catcher, but it’s an elite defensive position.
Now let’s look at it another way. Other than Ken Griffey, who’s in a category all his own, who was a better center fielder than Bernie during the late ‘90s? Andruw Jones? Maybe. Mike Cameron? Johnny Damon? Kenny Lofton? I don’t think so. And I’ve never even heard of most of the other people who were playing CF at that time. So he was absolutely a dominant player at his position.
No, he wasn't
Ken Griffey Junior is THE centerfielder of this era.
You’re just not understanding my criteria for the HOF. I don’t want every “very good” player to make it. I want the absolute best.
If it were up to me, Griffey would be the only CF to make it from this era. Mentioning Bernie in the same sentence or even the same paragraph is patently absurd.
You talk about “category all his own” … THOSE ARE THE GUYS I WANT IN THE HOF. Nobody else. Nobody.
by New York Sports Jerk on Jun 30, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions
In that case
Who that has gotten in, let’s say, in the last 10 years shouldn’t be there?
Let's do it...
I’m not even going to touch the guys who got in thanks to the Veterans Committee, those guys are almost always a total joke, but…
Jim Rice, Kirby Puckett, Tony Perez.
The fact that they’re in the HOF is ridiculous. I could do without Gary Carter too, but understand because he’s a catcher.
If it were up to me they’d raise the criteria from needing 75% of the vote to 85%.
by New York Sports Jerk on Jun 30, 2009 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree about Tony Perez
for what it’s worth. The others, I think, do belong there.
Rice, Puckett and Perez
Do you remember the sense of dread that filled you when Rice would step to the plate? A terrifying presence at the plate.
Puckett’s career average was .318, won 6 gold gloves, was a 10 time all star. Perez retired in the top 20 all time in rbi. Granted he was more of the steady type than the spectatcular, but 12 seasons over 90 rbi in a less offense minded era is impressive.
how could you say that?
you look at their numbers and what they did during the Yankee champ years all of them are damn equal.
You could argue defense, but TIno and O’Neill were very good at their positions (Tino Gold glove even).
I don;t think you can retire any of these numbers except #2 and #42. Its hard to say, but the other guys just weren’t HOF type players.
That’s not to even say that there are actually players with similar numbers to Bernie (Kirby Puckett for one) in the HOF.
The one who is questionable is Posada. He’s a catcher, and putting up his numbers at C is damn close to what happens when you get 3000 hits.
by FreeBradshaw on Jun 30, 2009 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions
it's not a question of the quality of their defense
center field is a more valuable defensive position than right field is. a CF is more valuable to a team than a RF putting up identical offensive numbers. and a CF who hits well is much harder to find than a RF who hits well.
so lemme get this str8.....
No Reggie, but Tino?
by ReggieARodJeter on Jul 1, 2009 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Bernie should be honored
Look we can talk all we want about what the conventions should be for retiring numbers. However, based on what has been established as what it takes to get your number retired as a Yankee, Bernie should be in. Throwing O’Neill or Tino out there is just clouding the issue. Bernie was the centerfielder for the Yankees during an era of dominence. He played the game right, he played hard, and he hit in every way you could ask him to, for his entire career. On another team that did not retire as many numbers as the Yankees, maybe his stats, and place in team history don’t get his number retired. But, based on the way they have retired numbers for the Yankees, he is absolutely deserving.
Retire
Bernie Yes
Torre Yes
O’Neill No
Posada No
Jeter Yes w/ Monument
Rivera Yes w/ Monument
Pettite Maybe if he stayed with NYY his whole carrer otherwise No
look at it this way. would you ever be able to stomach anyone wearing 51 or 6 again? so what is the difference… i could easilly see another 20, 21, etc.
of course
look here . bernie first of all was a true yankee just like mo just like jeter, he played all his career with the yankees. 2. just like jeter , bernie has won rookie of the year , and nothing against jeter but we all know if arod wouldve not played more than enough games in 95 he wouldve been the real rookie of the year. 3 of all bernie when it comes to career highlights its basically in every top 10 in every batting categories for the yankees records . including homeruns , hits , rbis , double .. ect. bernie has won a batting title . was the real mr clutch when donny baseball retired , everytime u needed a hit or a homer bernie was your guy. has records in the post season that recently jeter and other players are breaking now , and last and not least now is that jeter is reaching alot of bernies numbers in offense productions (while already spending more yrs as a yankee then bernie) bernie did them quicker , faster and less time and yea more injuries .. imaginge if he had less injuries???? i bet 3000 hits was the least of his numbers.. and ppl saying paul o’neills number , nahhh . was a good player but not to be retired like bernie deserves it . paul was more of the attitude guy for the yanks . remember this also bernie was the real candidate to be the captain but his injuries and his yrs gave it to jeter . we all know bernie had to be the real captain not jeter
You're all wrong
Bernie is going to get in like Bruce Sutter did, like Jim Rice did, eventually, with time, people will realize his importance. He’s not a first-ballot hall of famer, he’s not. Too many injuries, not enough star power.
However, when you look at history, it tends to remember the winners. Why the heck is Phil Rizzuto in the HOF? Because he was at a critical defensive position on several championship teams. Even the stats in his MVP year are almost laughably meager.
Same goes for Tony Perez, same goes for a lot of other guys. Know why Donnie Baseball hasn’t made it despite a career that would seem to dwarf Rizzuto’s? His dubious lack of rings as a New York Yankee. Fact is, Yankee winners get into the Hall. Period.
O’Neill and Tino won’t because they were only on the yankees for 8 or 9 years.
Bernie, Mo, Jeter, and Posada will get in. Take a gander at Posada’s numbers over the past 7-8 years. There are not many catchers at all with those kinds of numbers. And he’s back at it this year. Not as definitive a Yankee champion as Bernie, but a better pure resume.
Bernie will get it on reputation. He was as beloved as Jeter and Rivera by pretty much everyone, even those who hated Jeter and Rivera, and he was a winner and a great player, especially when it matters most.
And for all those people who think Jeter is a shoo-in, which he is. His numbers back in the day of Yankee Greatness, Also Known As the Late 90s, were not significantly better than one Bernie Williams.
As far as the fielding goes, he never had the strongest arm, but before his shoulders started breaking down in the early 2000s, along with his knees (two pretty important body parts for an outfielder), the Yankee centerfield was a death trap for doubles and triples. We won with pitching and small ball back in the day, and his and Jeter’s defense were the keys.
Am I good or what?
Not really.
Rizzuto is in because the veteran’s committee is full of guys who just put their buddies in the HOF. Scooter was also a legendary broadcaster in the public eye decades after his career ended. That’s why he’s in the HOF.
by New York Sports Jerk on Jun 30, 2009 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions
PLAQUES
There should be plaques in monument park for great Yankee teams and some key contributors to those teams. There’s no need to retire every fan favorite or popular Yankee.
I don’t get how this is even a debate. Bernie was the best position player on a team that won 4 World Series’. Yes, Jeter has had a better career but during the championship years, Bernie was our best player. I could see a case against it if the only retired numbers were the Ruths, Gehrighs, Mantles, DiMaggios, Berras of the world but that’s not the case. The Yankees already watered down the retired number honor with Reggie, Maris, etc. and Bernie clearly made a greater contribution to the Yankees than those guys and a couple others did. Bernie, Jeter, Mariano all need to be retired and we’ll see where it goes after that.
by Let's Talk About Tex Baby on Jun 30, 2009 11:41 PM EDT reply actions
Absolutely retire Bernie!!!
If you can’t retire #51, then what number CAN you retire??!?
Lifelong Yankee, HOF numbers…great person and leader.
Retire #51!!! Heck, I’d like to see #21 go too!
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Community Guidelines
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
In Association With
Big League Stew - MLB - Yahoo! Sports
- Ask Alex: Will Julio Teheran or Matt Moore win rookie of the year?
- Ku Klux Klan, umpires and bowling: Why the minor leagues tossed out Jim Evans academy
- The Cardinals Hall of Fame can now be found at Bill Clinton’s library in Arkansas (Huh?)
- Will Bryce Harper start the season with the Nationals?
- Mitch Mustain puts football behind him, signs reported rookie deal with White Sox
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
