Off-day thoughts about the New York Yankees

by Ed Valentine on May 11, 2009 7:00 AM EDT in Analysis Comment 38 comments

Phil Hughes

With apologies to SI.com's Peter King, who has made this style his trademark, here are a few things I think about the New York Yankees as we enjoy an off day.

I think winning two of three from the Baltimore Orioles is just fine. After a rough week that had everyone, myself included, down in the dumps maybe the Yankees are pointed in the right direction again.
I think this is my problem with Phil Hughes, who could not get out of the second inning Saturday. I'm not sure about his toughness. His stuff is excellent, and Saturday he was hitting 93-94 with his fastball. I don't want to hear about his mechanics, either. He's been doing this most of his life, he has got to be able to figure out how to throw the ball. What I wonder about is whether or not he can handle adversity. When things got dicey Saturday Hughes unraveled. He had no idea where the ball was going, and I couldn't believe it was 7-0 before there was bullpen action. At every level prior to the big leagues Hughes has been dominant, and rarely tested. To succeed, he has to handle adversity. As of now, he hasn't really shown that he can.
I think that if Johnny Damon (.325, 9 HR, 25 RBI, 3 stolen bases) keeps hitting like this there is no way the Yankees will be able to let him go after the season. Is there any argument that he has been their best player thus far?
I think you're either not paying attention, or not willing to acknowledge reality, if you can't see that Joba Chamberlain is on his way to becoming an excellent major-league starting pitcher. We can, and will, continue to argue over whether he is more valuable starting or relieving. Joba has been terrific in his last two starts, though, and you have to see that he is turning into the starter the Yankees hoped he could be. Chamberlain has gotten into the 6th inning in all but one of his six starts this season.
I think I am liking Francisco Cervelli. I am not anointing him catcher of the future -- I don't think he will be. I do think, though, that Cervelli could end up joining the Sal Fasano Backup Catchers' Fraternity and having a long major-league career.
I think it was really nice to see Joe Girardi put Phil Coke in the game to start the 7th inning on Sunday, then stay out of the way and let Coke pitch two full innings to get the ball to Mariano Rivera. It's about time Joe G. didn't over-think his bullpen strategy.
I think Robinson Cano will not be a truly great hitter until he learns to relax and drive in runs. Yes, he is hitting .315, but with runners in scoring position he is only at .186.
I think the fact that Angel Berroa is still on the big-league team, and the Yankees have been forced to add veteran re-treads Casey Fossum and Josh Towers to the AAA rotation, is a terrible indictment of the upper levels of the farm system.

(Click 'Continue Reading' to see updated season stats. I know we don't need the batting stats on the pitchers, but these are the numbers we have available and I can't edit the data).

Batting

	G	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	BB	K	SB	CS	AVG	OBP	SLG
Melky Cabrera	29	81	15	27	4	0	4	10	10	12	3	1	.333	.407	.531
Robinson Cano	31	131	21	42	8	0	6	18	7	12	1	0	.321	.353	.519
Johnny Damon	29	118	23	37	6	1	9	25	14	18	3	0	.314	.388	.610
Jorge Posada	23	77	10	24	6	0	5	20	12	19	1	0	.312	.402	.584
Xavier Nady	7	28	4	8	4	0	0	2	1	6	0	0	.286	.310	.429
Ramiro Pena	21	43	4	12	1	0	0	4	4	6	1	0	.279	.340	.302
Derek Jeter	31	132	19	36	6	0	4	13	13	20	7	0	.273	.347	.409
Jose Molina	16	44	5	12	2	0	1	6	4	6	0	0	.273	.333	.386
Francisco Cervelli	4	11	2	3	0	0	0	0	1	2	0	0	.273	.333	.273
Nick Swisher	30	100	22	27	9	1	8	21	20	31	0	0	.270	.398	.620
Hideki Matsui	28	98	9	26	6	1	3	12	13	15	0	0	.265	.360	.439
Brett Gardner	28	66	11	15	3	0	0	4	6	14	6	1	.227	.288	.273
Mark Teixeira	28	106	18	21	4	0	7	17	21	23	0	0	.198	.338	.434
Alex Rodriguez	3	11	1	2	0	0	1	3	1	2	0	0	.182	.250	.455
Cody Ransom	15	50	4	9	5	1	0	6	3	15	1	0	.180	.226	.320
Angel Berroa	7	12	4	2	0	0	0	0	0	3	0	0	.167	.167	.167
Andy Pettitte	6	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	.000	.000	.000
Brett Tomko	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	.000	.000	.000
Alfredo Aceves	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	.000	.000	.000
Phil Hughes	3	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	.000	.000	.000
Anthony Claggett	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	.000	.000	.000
Mark Melancon	4	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	.000	.000	.000
David Robertson	5	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	.000	.000	.000
Mariano Rivera	13	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	.000	.000	.000
A.J. Burnett	6	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	.000	.000	.000
Chien-Ming Wang	3	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	.000	.000	.000
Jose Veras	13	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	.000	.000	.000
Edwar Ramirez	12	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	.000	.000	.000
Joba Chamberlain	6	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	.000	.000	.000
Damaso Marte	7	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	.000	.000	.000
Brian Bruney	9	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	.000	.000	.000
Phil Coke	15	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	.000	.000	.000
Jonathan Albaladejo	14	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	.000	.000	.000
CC Sabathia	7	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	.000	.000	.000

Pitching

	W-L	G	GS	CG	SHO	SV	BS	IP	H	R	ER	HR	BB	K	ERA	WHIP
Nick Swisher	0-0	30	0	0	0	0	0	1.0	1	0	0	0	1	1	0.00	2.00
Phil Coke	1-2	15	0	0	0	0	1	13.2	10	8	5	2	4	10	3.29	1.02
Brian Bruney	2-0	9	0	0	0	0	0	8.0	3	3	3	0	2	12	3.38	.63
Mariano Rivera	0-1	13	0	0	0	6	1	12.1	15	5	5	4	1	18	3.65	1.30
David Robertson	0-0	5	0	0	0	0	0	4.2	4	3	2	0	4	7	3.86	1.71
Joba Chamberlain	2-1	6	6	0	0	0	0	34.2	37	18	15	4	17	34	3.89	1.56
CC Sabathia	2-3	7	7	2	1	0	0	48.0	43	23	21	2	16	32	3.94	1.23
Alfredo Aceves	0-0	1	0	0	0	0	0	4.1	4	2	2	1	2	7	4.15	1.38
Andy Pettitte	2-1	6	6	0	0	0	0	39.0	42	20	19	5	11	23	4.38	1.36
A.J. Burnett	2-0	6	6	0	0	0	0	37.2	35	22	22	6	15	33	5.26	1.33
Mark Melancon	0-0	4	0	0	0	0	1	3.1	2	2	2	0	5	2	5.40	2.10
Edwar Ramirez	0-0	12	0	0	0	0	0	15.0	17	10	9	5	11	14	5.40	1.87
Jonathan Albaladejo	2-1	14	0	0	0	0	1	16.0	16	12	10	3	5	7	5.63	1.31
Jose Veras	1-1	13	0	0	0	0	0	15.0	11	12	12	2	10	12	7.20	1.40
Phil Hughes	1-2	3	3	0	0	0	0	11.2	17	12	11	2	8	8	8.49	2.14
Brett Tomko	0-0	1	0	0	0	0	0	1.0	3	1	1	1	0	0	9.00	3.00
Damaso Marte	0-1	7	0	0	0	0	0	5.1	9	9	9	3	3	6	15.19	2.25
Chien-Ming Wang	0-3	3	3	0	0	0	0	6.0	23	23	23	2	6	2	34.50	4.83
Anthony Claggett	0-0	1	0	0	0	0	0	1.2	9	8	8	2	2	2	43.20	6.60

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Done

Thought we had done this before.

by Ed Valentine on May 11, 2009 9:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Barring an injury, or Wang still being ineffective when he gets back, Hughes is fighting for his spot on the roster in his next start, and I think Ed’s point about Hughes lack of toughness is well taken. He has to keep the game from getting out of hand there, and he couldn’t.
Look at the Mets starting pitching this past week. Seven consecutive starts, at least 6 innings and less than 3 runs. Each start, you give your team a chance to win. The Yankees have to get that from their staff.

by fredny on May 11, 2009 8:57 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Hughes

I still have very high hopes for him. I’d love to see a little mean streak from him, though. Instead of unraveling he needs to begin finding the ability to pitch out of trouble or pitch through mistakes by his team. Maybe he will as he matures, but it seems we have been waiting for that for a while now.

by Ed Valentine on May 11, 2009 9:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He

has really good stuff. I understand what you are saying about composure, but remember, he is really young (22). For every Joba who seems ready for the big stage at 21 there are 2-3 great pitchers who need time. Halliday and Santana may be the two best pitchers in their respective leagues, but the stunk with a capital S when they started. With pitching prospects you never know, but I see good things. For example, his curve and fastball look much better this year than last .

by Buzzy on May 11, 2009 9:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hughes to me gets a bit snakebitter more than most

I know its not an excuse and it happens to all pitchers, but it seemed his last 2 outings he had some weird strikezones and some bad luck hits fall in.

These resulted in walks and RISP, then eventually since the strikezone is squeezing him he has to come right over the plate, then come the big hits.

But this IS toughness in pitching right here

Id actually say that JOBA has it. He has been tight roping out of jams the whole season, and once that first inning ends he HAS been getting out of it.

Hughes is young. He has the stuff. He is NOT Ian Kennedy, a AAAA type pitcher right now. Hughes can be lights out as we all know.

Hughes just seems to be REALLY GOOD, or REALLY BAD. Id rather him be consistent so the Yanks have a chance of winning, so yea he needs to get tougher and mature.

Like I said he is young, and given that he has shown glimpses of being a very good pitcher, the maturation can ONLY happen as he works through this.

If Wang comes back and pitches like he should, I’d say its back to AAA again for Hughes.

by FreeBradshaw on May 11, 2009 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Probably so

Unless, of course, someone else is hurt.

by Ed Valentine on May 11, 2009 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

"Hughes to me gets a bit snakebitter more than most"

i’ve often thought this too re: Hughes.

that second inning was combo of bad luck, bad D and bad pitching. if Tex makes one or both of those plays (which he normally does), it’s just a bad inning (3 er) rather than an awful inning. or if those seeing-eye grounders find infielders, maybe Hughes gets through unscathed.

but this is what happens to most promising, young pitchers: inconsistency.

by Travis G on May 11, 2009 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

"Terrific" is....

…overstating Joba’s last two performances. Giving up a 3-run HR in the first inning and then recovering and getting into the sixth is “good” or “decent” not terrific.

And yeah, he’s gotten INTO the 6th inning in 5 of his 6 starts, but he’s completed the 6th inning only twice, and only once has he gotten to the 7th. He’s still throwing too many pitches, and putting your team in an early hole every game is far from terrific.

Yeah, there are good signs too, but let’s relax. Sabathia was terrific on Friday night. Joba was okay yesterday afternoon after a terrible start.

by New York Sports Jerk on May 11, 2009 9:03 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Adjective

Use whichever adjective you want. My point is that the more he starts the more you see why the Yankees believe he can be a very good one.

by Ed Valentine on May 11, 2009 9:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

very true

Joba does throw too many pitches but at least he let up 3 runs instead of 4 in the 1st inning…..

When I was watching that game, after seeing him get behind batters putting runners at 1st and 2nd, then of course went 2-0 to Aubrey Huff, I actually said “Its going to happen again if he keeps this crap up…”

Of course it did, tho that pitch that Huff hit was off his shoe laces, I have no idea how he hit that so far.

If he didn’t swing tho, that would have been ball 3.

Joba’s solution is quite simply. When you start a game, you come out THROWING STRIKES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by FreeBradshaw on May 11, 2009 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Joba

I think Joba feeds off emotion, which builds throughout a game. I think that’s why he gets stronger as the game settles in.

by Ed Valentine on May 11, 2009 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah

People need to remember Joba and Hughes are what? 23?

by HappyLuckyGoldenDragonNumber1! on May 11, 2009 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Objectively...

…I’m saying Joba has been okay. Everyone knows you WANT him to be terrific as a starter, and of course we all do, but when you talk about people who “refuse to accept reality” then use a word like terrific to describe two pedestrian 6-inning outings (in which Joba left trailing both times) I have to wonder if you’re talking about your own failure to accept reality.

When Joba leaves with a lead after 7 innings of 1 or 2 run ball, I’ll call him terrific. When it takes him 104 pitches to get through six, I’m not going to get excited or think it proves anything about his future as a starter.

by New York Sports Jerk on May 11, 2009 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agree with most of your points, Ed...

Other then the 1st inning struggles, Joba is doing well, needs to get his pitch count down but he is working out of trouble more often then not. I like the attitude he brings to the mound.

No argument at all about Damon, the fact that he’s doing it with a sore shoulder makes it even more impressive. He’s always been a grinder.

Regards Hughes, same as last season, he gets that “deer in the headlights” mentality every time he gets into a jam. Odd though, during his Detroit start he seemed to be brimming with confidence then he just started to regress before our eyes into the trainwreck he was last season before hitting the DL. I’m not willing to sacrifice games so Hughes can develop. How many seasons are we going to hear the same excuses for him? If Wang comes back strong, back to Scranton for Hughes.

by FrankDiscussion on May 11, 2009 9:54 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Some random thoughts

regarding the points you make:
1. Phil Hughes—mental toughness and consistency are what seperates major leaguers from minor leaguers. By the time players make it to AA or AAA they are all talented athletes, it is what’s between the ears that makes the difference.
2. Joba—I like the toughness to compete after giving up runs in inning 1. I know that with any good pitcher if teams are going to get to him it needs to be early. Just wish Joba would stop spotting teams 3-4 runs in the first inning!
3. Damon has indeed been clutch. Jeter will get back to .300 , there’s just too much a body of his work to believe otherwise.
4. Cervelli does impress with his attitude and hustle. Remains to be seen what kind of stick he can swing. That being said plenty of catchers have had lengthy major league careers based on how the can handle a pitching staff without hitting much. See Martinez, Buck for an example. Having a great offensive catcher is a plus, but that’s a position that is more about defense than anything else.
5. Yes the cupboard is pretty bare at the upper levels of the farm system and I’m not sure I see that changing any time soon.

"I don't want one of those guys who'll drive in two but let in three every game." Casey Stengel

by tnredneckyankeesfan on May 11, 2009 11:25 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Really?

So at this stage they then should all be at the level to compete and it is just “mentality”? Here are some lines for you (first or second fullish seasons):

1)Roy Halliday:Age 23, In 67, ERA 10.64, 2.202WHIP
2)Johan Santana:Age 21 In 86 6.49 ERA, 1.814
3)Greg Maddux: Age 21, In 155 5.61 ERA 1.638
4)Randy Johnson: Age 25 In 160 4.82 ERA 1.512 WHIP
5)Cliff Lee:Age 25, In 179 5.43 ERA 1.503 WHIP

There are so many of these. Now, don’t get me wrong, it would be better if Hughes was just lights out at 22, and indeed he may never have the “mental toughness” to make it, but my point is the following. Pitching is hard. Hughes is 22. Hughes has excellent stuff. Most great pitchers struggled at some point early in their careers. The problem as I see it is the pressure to win for the NYY is so high, that it is hard to have a multi-year plan. But, to be successful, you have to have a mult-year plan. Hughes has to pitch and take his lumps, because while the down-side is some losses now, the down side to giving up on him is perhaps many losses (without him) in the future.

by Buzzy on May 11, 2009 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You read my mind

Although I’m not sure Cliff Lee belongs on that list.

Phil Hughes has a 5.48 ERA in about 120 big league innings.

Johan Santana had a 5.89 ERA in his first two season, covering 129 innings.

Randy Johnson’s ERAs from the late ‘80s/early ’90s look good by today’s standards, but back then a 4.00 ERA was decidedly mediocre. It took him nearly 1,000 innings to go from somebody who walked 150 batters in 200 innings to arguably the most dominant pitcher ever.

Greg Maddux had a 5.60 ERA through his first 184 innings.

by 3460kuri on May 11, 2009 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I will

agree that it takes pitchers more time to develop. The point being that Hughes needs more time to develop as a pitcher whether it is here or in Scranton. My point was that consistency is the difference maker. These guys are all great athletes. They have been the best athlete on their teams at whatever level they have competed. Being consistent especially as a pitcher takes time to develop. I did not want to come across as saying he’s got to produce right now. Developing that mental toughness is difficult and as you rightly point out it is even more difficult in the fishbowl that is the NYY.

"I don't want one of those guys who'll drive in two but let in three every game." Casey Stengel

by tnredneckyankeesfan on May 11, 2009 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Of course

he doesn’t. Almost no one does! He is a good major league pitcher. When putting Halliday down, it simply made me think of the guy who actually won the Cy last year…

by Buzzy on May 11, 2009 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree with both Buzzy and 3460kuri's points

about Hughes being young and needing time to develop properly, but in reality we know this isn’t going to happen. Right or wrong, the “win now” mentality the organization has isn’t likely to change in the near future. The organization certainly doesn’t help by overhyping its pitching propects.

by FrankDiscussion on May 11, 2009 12:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Phil Huges "toughness"

I agree that he may not be that tought yet menatlly as shown by the other night. However, I don’t see what going down to the minors would do to help this issue. The only way he is ever gonna learn to get big league hitters out in key situations or just fight through not having his best stuff is at the highest level. His stuff is good enough to stay here. But I don’t see waht having him go down and dominate and not be put in a lot of stressful situations does to help him. It may be trial by fire but that’s the only way he is ever gonna learn

by Blazer Fan From Ohio on May 11, 2009 12:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Amen

"I don't want one of those guys who'll drive in two but let in three every game." Casey Stengel

by tnredneckyankeesfan on May 11, 2009 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

So when Wang returns...

does Hughes go to the bullpen? ( assuming no one else in the rotation goes down). who’s spot on the roster does he get? Tomko’s? Abladejo’s (sp)? Rameirez’s?
need to start taking 2 out of 3 from everybody. need to start grinding, getting tired of flopping out of the gate the way they have the last few years.

by fredny on May 11, 2009 1:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Depends on

which Wong returns. The guy who won 19 games per year over a 2 year span or the guy who posted the 34.50 ERA

"I don't want one of those guys who'll drive in two but let in three every game." Casey Stengel

by tnredneckyankeesfan on May 11, 2009 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Best guess

Hughes goes back to Scranton. They won’t have him sit around in the bullpen. They will want him to pitch every 5 days.

by Ed Valentine on May 11, 2009 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree that Phil should learn to handle adversity a bit

better and will hopefully improve with maturity and experience but it would be nice if his defense wouldn’t butcher simple plays and just give him a break once in a while.

by garp on May 11, 2009 2:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

So on another topic

Why is Joba’s fist pump make him such a “punk” in the media but Pabelbon’s toddler like celebrations simply make him a “fierce competitor” ? Just the gist I get from watching all the sports shows and listening to MLB XM.

by HappyLuckyGoldenDragonNumber1! on May 11, 2009 2:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

From K-rod to Papelbon

this seems to be accepted much more from closers than starting pitchers (although most don’t do it). It is accepted much more from closers than 8th inning guys, although it is in general accepted more form the pen. I don’t know why, and I think it is kind of retarded no matter who does it.

by Buzzy on May 11, 2009 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

pretty much

The only reason the media thinks its ok for Papelbohn to do it is because he’s on the Red Sox and if you watch ESPN you’d swear NESN has gone national. The Red Sox are the media’s darlings not the “big. bad Yankees”. That’s why its supposedly Papelbohn being a fierce competitor and Joba being a punk. It’s rather stupid but it’s true

by Blazer Fan From Ohio on May 11, 2009 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It's the usual Sox spin,

Papelbon could have an grand mal seizure on the mound in celebration and Gammons and Phillips would swoon in appreciation, but Joba is insulting the integrity of the game. I think it is all being blown out of proportion. Just another reason why the mainstream sports media isn’t taken seriously any longer.

For the record, I didn’t have a problem with Huff’s display either.

by FrankDiscussion on May 11, 2009 3:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Nah

I mean, I’m a Sox fan, and I think it is toolish, but that is accepted for closers (for some dumb reason). These are the guys who fight over who first used a given song for their entrance. From Tug McGraw to Ricky Vaughn, we want to think of closers as high energy goofballs.

by Buzzy on May 11, 2009 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Me either

I would have done the same thing if I were him.

by HappyLuckyGoldenDragonNumber1! on May 11, 2009 3:12 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Great points

What role would Damon serve on the team next year? DH or fourth outfielder? If he continues to put up great numbers, he should probably be able to find a starting job somewhere else. I like Damon but I think it’s time to let him go.

by BigSlim on May 11, 2009 4:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

He's like Posada

when he put up MVP numbers in his contract year.

It depends on what the Yanks do this year and how Damon carries them. He’s carrying them right now when they win, so Id think he stays. He COULD DH and be a valuble 4th outfielder, Id take that the way he’s hitting.

by FreeBradshaw on May 11, 2009 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Love the Rick Vaughn reference,

and a valid point by Buzzy. I don’t have a problem with any sort of emotional display on the field, as long as it doesn’t get carried away. These guys are human, not automatons and I enjoy any player who isn’t afraid to get into the moment.

by FrankDiscussion on May 11, 2009 5:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Papelbon

overdoes it a bit. Also Joba may have picked this up as the Yanks 8th inning guy.

by Buzzy on May 11, 2009 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Phil Hughes..

Phil Hughes will become a better pitcher once he gets more experianced. In time he will preform better in cluch situations. Right now however we either have to keep him as a starter, or once Wang gets his act together we can use him in low pressure relief situations. He will not be a guy we pull out when the bases are loaded and there’s 2 outs. He can’t handle that kind of pressure yet. But other than that there’s really not much to complain about with him. His velocity is fine and his mechanics are okay.

by subliminalnirvanaist on May 11, 2009 6:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs