Around the Yankee Universe ... waiting for the Red Sox edition
by Ed Valentine on Apr 24, 2009 11:04 AM EDT
in News
27 comments
A quick look around the Inter-Google at the Yankee Universe as we wait for tonight's first Yankees-Red Sox tilt of the season.
- The Tampa Bay Rays may have won the AL East and gone to the World Series last season, but for the Yankees and Red Sox it is still all about each other. Even the players new to the pinstripes seem to have an idea what they are walking into tonight. Ken Davidoff of Newsday breaks down this year's versions of the arch-rivals. Mike Lupica says the rivalry has not faded.
- Even the commish has noticed the empty premium seats at Yankee Stadium and Citi Field. And when Bud Selig notices, you know it has to be bad.
- David Ortiz issued a pre-emptive warning to Joba Chamberlain not to throw at Kevin Youkilis, which Joba has made a habit of since coming to the Yankees. Maybe Joba should buzz Ortiz with a 95-mph heater right at the kneecaps.
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lmfao!
what would Ortiz do?
he probably couldn’t even make it to the mound without becoming winded and having to stop for a twinkie!
That just infuriates me
Nothing has been more frustrating as a Yanks fan in this rivalry (& living in NE at that) than watching Sox pitchers throw at Yanks hitters time after time the last few years while Yanks pitchers never retaliate. It’s about time one of ours gets some payback. I hope Joba doesn’t let up.
Please
that is just a biased fan attitude. Most complaints of the supposed fact that “Sox pitchers throw at Yanks hitters time after time the last few years while Yanks pitchers never retaliate” are times when Jeter gets hit. You do know that Jeter is near league lead in HBP every year, don’t you? He dives over the plate. Kevin Youkilis dives over the plate too. A few years back he went on the DL after he was hit by a pitch from Wang. That was clearly accidental, and no rational Sox fan had beef with it. The Joba thing is different. Joba, who has good control, had thrown behind Youkilis once, over his head once, and at his head twice. He has probably faced him all but 6 or so times, so that is clearly excessive. No rational fan of any team could view this as coincidence. Throwing at someones head is a very bad thing to do, especially if it is intentional. Lets be rational and simply enjoy some good baseball and a good rivalry without this kind of crap.
what about when Pedro sent Soriano and Jeter to the hospital on consecutive pitches?
back in the day?
by Brian5517209 on Apr 24, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Hmm
lets see, Soriano swung at the pitch that hit him, and the other party in question, Jeter, is one of the all time leaders in HBP. Both happened in the 1st inning, and both were hit on the hands. To quote from the NYTimes Dave Anderson:
“In the press box, I thought MartÃnez was trying to pitch Soriano and Jeter inside, not to hit them. Soriano swung at the pitch that hit him. Jeter didn’t get out of the way in time.”
That is just my point-if I rooted for the Yanks, I would not be happy with that, but I would not think there is evidence that it was intentional. Same as I said for Youkilis being hit a lot (and a lot against the Yankees including the Wang broken hand incident). Pedro was an aggressive pitcher who threw inside a lot against all teams. This is really different that the Joba-Youkilis situation. If you can’t see that, then what can I say.
Furthermore, Pedro is not even with the Sox any more, has not been for 5 years. This comment would be akin to a Met fan saying “How about when Roger threw at Piazza’s head and then later threw a piece of the bat at him?”
I never said
I wanted him to throw at their head. You are absolutely correct that throwing at anyone’s head is a very bad thing to do. I should not ask that Joba continue that part of it. Brushing Youk back a little should be fair game as long as he does it the right way, so I am only asking for a brush back. I should have been more clear. As for the rest of your comment, I totally disagree. Yes, Jeter got hit more than most, but it was more than Jeter getting plunked. I realize this is just conjecture and would require more work than I want to put in (except for the good example by brian), but it appeared to me and many others that the Sox brushed Yanks hitters back while Yanks pitchers NEVER did the same. Do you remember Ortiz ever getting brushed back before last year? He totally crowded the plate and was totally killing Yanks pitching, yet Yanks pitchers never put one inside to get him off. That’s all I was trying to say, but obviously should have said it more clearly.
Pitching inside is
fine, intentionally throwing at someones head is not. As I said, Youkilis has been hit many times against the Yanks, including the case I described above. I have no problem with that. Joba appears to really be throwing at Youkilis. It is hard to rationalize. As for your point about Ortiz, he has 25 career HBPs! That is like 2 seasons for Jeter. So despite where he stands either no one throws at him (not just the Yankees) or, more likely, he does not dive over the plate like Jeter and Youkilis do.
I don’t have the time to go through the gamelogs right now, but if you like and care, I can dig them out. I would bet the overall HBP stats in the last few years for this series is similar.
Here's an interesting post
on this subject:
http://fullcount.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/but-who-do-the-red-sox-pitchers-target/
“So four of the top five most-hit batters by the Sox since the start of the 2004 season are Yankees:
Jason Giambi – 11 HBPs (76 games, 302 plate appearances)
Alex Rodriguez – 10 HBPs (92 games, 399 plate appearances)
Reed Johnson – 10 HBPs (53 games, 165 plate appearances — NOT a misprint)
Gary Sheffield – 8 HBPs (50 games, 220 plate appearances)
Derek Jeter – 8 HBPs (84 games, 410 plate appearances)"
The highest for the Yankees, since 2004:
Kevin Millar 10
Reed Johnson 9
Kevin Youkilis 8
Tejada 8
So it shows that Yanks are getting hit at much higher rate by the Sox (by total number) than visa versa. This is not a complete list and I will grant you that most of these guys crowd the plate, but it still indicated things are unbalanced. It also shows that even biased fans can have a good feel for when one team is getting hit more often than another.
Sorry
I don’t see how that proves your point. Where is the much higher rate? To prove your point it would be necessary to look at total HBP numbers. Furthermore, Giambi, Jeter and ARod are HUGE HBP guys. Giambi has 22 HBPs last year, while Ortiz has 25 in his career. ARod had 21 in 2007. To make your point valid, you should look at the same measure for other teams in the AL east. I would bet that the Os, Rays and Jays also hit these guys as among the highest rates too.
Jeter HBP by team
06-08:
Baltimore 5 times, Tampa 5 times, Toronto 4 times, KC 4 times, Boston 3 times.
ARod
06-08
Boston 7 times, 6-Baltimore, 6-Texas, 5-Tampa, 4-Toronto
Giambi
06-08
Toronto-7, 5-Texas, 4times-Tampa. 3 times by Boston, KC, LAA, Mets, Oak, Sea.
What this clearly shows is there is no bias for the Sox hitting your guys, and your statistical analysis is specious; the point is clearly that these three simply get hit alot by all teams, and no more by boston than by others. This also answers you other point. Boston simply as fewer guys that get hit alot in general. So, can we end this BS now?
by Buzzy on Apr 24, 2009 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
And here's another:
“Since the start of the 2000 season, a Red Sox pitcher has been far more likely to hit a Yankees batter with a pitch than the other way around. Entering tonight’s Red Sox-Yankees game at Yankee Stadium, Boston pitchers have hit 80 Yankees hitters with pitches and Yankees pitchers have hit Red Sox hitters only 48 times, according to research conducted by STATS Inc.”
"So four of the top five most-hit batters by the Sox since the start of the 2004 season are Yankees"
Hate to break it to you, but WEEI notoriously twists stats and tries to make mountains out of nothing. Today they were pushing the aspect of the Ortiz quote that “joba isnt respected”, something that was taken out of context and other respected sports media mostly isnt touching.
Buzzy
i dont think throwing at the head is right, but here’s something to think about: (as of 2007-08) the Sox led all MLB in hitting batters over the last 10 years.
That really only means something
with an error bar relative to an average. How much does that number exceed the average, say in the AL East where we all face each other the same # of times relative to fluctuations per year? It is hard to believe it is statistically significant. As for at least 06-08 I looked as I posted for the top three HBPers on the Yanks. The Sox hit them less on average than other teams in the AL East did. Here is the thing-is the # that the Sox have hit Yankees over the last few years above/below/on par with what Baltimore/Tampa/Toronto has done? That is the meaningful question. Does anyone want to bet me that it is a wash?
I also really think we are missing the point here. There seems to be no question that Joba is trowing at Youkilis head. I don’t think we can say that about any pitcher on the Sox with regard to any player on the Yankees.
Not to beat a dead horse
since this thread issue seems to be over and done with, but the stats quoted by potroast are factually incorrect. I found different numbers in an article online, so I checked by hand in baseball reference.com simply by going to the spits per year by team. The facts show that infact since 2004 the Yankees have hit Boston batters 46 times and the Sox have hit Yankee batters 53 times. Wakefield has been the biggest offender with 7 HBP. Thus, the entire difference between the total amounts in this span has been 7 60MPH knuckleballs.
This I thinks should really end the perception that the Sox throw at the Yankees without reciprocation. As I mentioned before, the Yankees as a team take significantly more HBPs, but in the last 5 years, the HBPs are a head-to-head wash.
Can't really argue with those numbers
Well you can… but that would probably make you a Red Sox fan, which would make you here in a Yankees blog site as a troll.
by HappyLuckyGoldenDragonNumber1! on Apr 24, 2009 4:32 PM EDT reply actions
Whatever dude
I have contributed politely on this site, even as a Sox fan, before you ever joined. If you are too stupid to understand the statistical meaning of the correct analysis of the numbers as I posted above, what can I say. The numbers clearly show:
a)The Sox do not throw hit Yankee players more than other teams do.
b)The Yankees happen to have many players who take a lot of HBPs
c)What the hell does this have to do with Joba repeatedly throwing at someone’s head?
Live happily in your ignorant world where rational argument means nothing, and anyone who has a valid point is a troll.
As everywhere else
Rational discuss is always welcomed by the rational members of this site.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
Thanks
(I think). OK-as this shows:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/HBP_active.shtml
Yankee players of this decade are big, big HBP guys. On the active list, Giambi, Jeter, ARod and Sheff are 3,4,5,6! Posada is 50, Soriano is 54. I hope that this puts a new perspective on the debate that somehow the Sox are throwing at the Yankees. Everyone has been throwing at the Yankees (or, to look at in another way, the Yankees take a lot of HBP). Perhaps it is noticed more because this is a big rivalry, but really this is not some sort of planned attack by Boston on NY.
You are missing the point
I understand that these guys get hit more and I concede that your initial analysis points to this (although your statistical analysis is just as flawed as mine was & for much of the same reasons). BUT it does not change the fact that Yanks hitters have been hit A LOT more times (80 – 48!!!) than Sox hitters in THIS matchup. Total! As you wanted!
Also, I didn’t say that the Sox threw at the Yanks more than any other team threw at the Yanks. I said that the Sox throw more at the Yanks than visa versa. The total numbers show this. The fact is I AM a biased Yanks fan and my guys have been hit more times than yours in this rivalry. I don’t see why it is so egregious (and BS as you state) that I want to see this be evened out more.
its egregious because you cant pick and choose who to “even out with”. If the yankees are getting hit by more pitches, does that mean they should start throwing at everybody to “even things out”? Btw, contrary to populist belief, hitting people with pitches isnt just a way to flip off the other team, it also leads to runs being scored on you.
The absolute #
does not mean anything. It is the amount relative to average, since these players are hit alot by all teams. That is what determines if you are being singled out by a given team.
ok-anyway, fun chatting, gotta run or I will miss the start!
Keep it friendly
And buzzy that is not really directed at you. Not sure what has been tolerated in the past, but we will try to keep it friendly.
On the topic of Joba and inside pitches, I do think that during the Torre years the Yankees were guilty of almost never pushing Ortiz or Manny off the plate. Nobody wants beanball wars, but you can’t just let great hitters sit and get comfortable.
by Ed Valentine on Apr 24, 2009 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions
It's perfectly OK
for a fan of another team to come here and contribute his thoughts, especially if he tries to do it in a friendly, intelligent manner. IMHO that is what ‘Buzzy’ has tried to do. Sadly, it is some of the juvenile comments of Yankee fans that I am disappointed in (and no, Happy, I am not talking about your last comment).
by Ed Valentine on Apr 24, 2009 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Joba throws at Pukeilis
because he shakes his ass like a French Can-Can dancer with a bad case of the clap when he’s at the plate.
I for one am tired of this current crop of Sux players and management sneering at the rest of Baseball like a French waiter fawning over a piece of stinky cheese.
It’s just too bad Joba can’t throw at Papelsmear as well.
"Here, if you have a milkshake, and I have a milkshake, and I have a straw. There it is, that's a straw, you see? You watching?. And my straw reaches acroooooooss the room, and starts to drink your milkshake... I... drink... your... milkshake!"-Daniel Plainview
by yankee come lately on Apr 24, 2009 4:46 PM EDT reply actions
I for one am tired of this current crop of Sux players and management sneering at the rest of Baseball like a French waiter fawning over a piece of stinky cheese.
Please reread this. It is embarrasing. Give me one peice of evidence of any Sox player or member of Sox management sneering at baseball. Maybe to you sneering=unwanted success.
Ok-bye guys. Enjoy the series and the beautiful weather this weekend.
Lately
There is no call for this kind of stuff. Maybe it was allowed in years gone by, but not now. That’s juvenile nonsense. We don’t really want that here.
by Ed Valentine on Apr 24, 2009 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions
i remember when Manny
got all upset bc a pitch simply went up and in… just Manny being stupid!
Ortiz could be saying this to get into Joba’s head, and maybe the umps as well.
and i thought being respected in MLB meant you WOULD throw bean balls (e.g. Ryan, Gibson, Clemens).
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